The End of Archtop Guitars?

[@CaseyMahoneyJazz]

HI James, that Yamaha sounds excellent as does your playing. A few months ago I did an informal study on who are te most popular jazz guitarists that people listen to in 2024. I used Spotify’s “monthly listeners” number to determine this. I posted it on reddit to see if I missed anyone, but people had a very negative reaction to it so I ended up abandoning the project. But I did do a quick check on what guitars the most popular jazz guitarists play by crossreferencing with the equipboard website. Here’s what I found- 26 jazz guitarists have 100,000 or more monthly listeners on Spotify. 65% play an archtop most of the time or sometimes 34% play only archtops and nothing else 19% play every type of guitar (solid/hollow/archtop/acoustic) Les Paul is the most popular solid body guitar. 5 out of 26 players chose them. The stratocaster is almost unheard of, Bill Frisell bought a “relic strat” recently and plays it occasionally. Handmade D’Aquisto/D’Angelico guitars are more popular than people think, 28% of the most popular players chose these guitars. I looked into the Telecaster vs. archtop question also, because jazz guitarists on the internet are talking about telecasters a lot these days. As far as Telecasters- There are no “only telecaster” popular jazz guitarists. Lage and Frisell put them into the mix with various other guitars. Flat top steel string acoustic guitar is more popular for jazz than a telecaster, 5 to 2 Nylon Classical is more popular than the the Tele, 5 to 2 So my conclusions are as follows. Archtops have been the most popular guitar by far. The “Mount Rushmore of Jazz Guitar” guys were archtop-only guys (Wes, Charlie Chiristian, Grant Green, Benson). Benson is interesting because he played all the most amazing arcthops, and even made his own archtop design with Ibanez. He had unlimited budget for guitars. He hated feedback but he never switched to a solid body permanently. He just desighned an artchop that didn’t feedback much. Grant Green is known for the fully hollow 330, but only played it for a few years, then went to big archtops, the L-7 and the Epiphone, while adding the McCarty pickup, then ultimately he went to the D’Aquisto. The 330 was a passing phase on the way to the big archtops. Many players dabble around and try every type of guitar. Players who switch guitars a lot always retain a recognizable sound, so there is some truth to “tone is in the hands.” Genre also matters. For straight ahead jazz, it’s an arcthop world. For fusion, solid body guitars are more common. Smooth jazz is mostly archtops. Check out Norman Brown for that. The Telecaster situation is quite curious. The Telecaster is the most popular / least popular guitar for jazz. The 2 well known early tele players (Ted Greene and Ed Bickert) did not have the numbers to be on the list, as they both have under 100K monthly listeners. Julian Lage and Bill Frisell were the only tele guys to make it, but they play a wide range of other stuff too. Ted Greene’s down-tuned tele seems influential with players but little known to the public. People who post about jazz guitar on the internet are mostly beginners or intermediate and their opinion is “any guitar can be a jazz guitar.” This is a popular belief now on the internet, but not among gigging professionals. Pasquale Grasso and Peter Berntein are using archtops and tube amps. Watch Frank Vignola’s Guitar Night and you will see mostly archtops. The “any guitar is a jazz guitar” crowd don’t show up with an Ibanex JEM or a Warlock, it’s always a telecaster that they are modding and asking pickup questions about. The idea is to get a guitar that will cover rock gigs and other stuff too, and avoid buying a 2nd guitar. Telecasters seem to be the choice for people who are new to jazz and not really ready to commit yet. Once in a while a pro like Ed Cherry or Ceclil Alexander will pop up with a tele, cause it’s fun to tinker and try new guitars. People are also under the opnion that archtops are too expensive, so they go with a telecaster. I would point to a plethora of $500 archtops on Reverb from Epiphone and Washburn. It will be interesting to see in 20 years where this goes. Will jazz become mostly telecasters? Or will people start switching to archtops as they get more serious about playing jazz? For me, I love the sound of an archtop and I don’t think it can be replicated by any solid body guitar. So I play mostly archtops. I also have a Les Paul Special I mess around with occasionally. So I guess I’m like most jazz guitarists, I prefer an archtop but a solid body is a bit of fun once in a while.

[@rgcjac]

I know, at least for me, an archtop is a very important part of my guitar family. It connects me to the history of jazz and the great luthiers of the past. On a practical note, it sounds great and feels wonderful. At 70 years of age and with some wrist issues, there are days when my Peerless Monarch is easier to play than my ES-339 or Sire Telecaster...and on other days, it isn't. Great topic, Jamie...thanks!

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Thanks glad your Peerless makes your playing comfortable!

[@cliverichards6282]

I love my Heritage Eagle Classic & play it everyday. Jam sessions & gigs it gives me that wonderful old warm sound through my Mambo jazz amp.

[@wolfgangniemann2572]

For now 25 years my Gibson Super 400 CES is my Favoriten guitar! Bought it new after dreaming of for 20 years. Love it!

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Rock on!

[@wilkbor]

Thank you. This is a very thoughtful discussion.

[@BrandochGarage]

I still mine at home while watching TV, and practicing. I like the feel of the neck on my Ibanez, and I love the flat wounds on it. It has a nice scale length, and looks very nice even with a few cracks in finish.

[@MakisAblianitis]

Having at the moment more than fifty guitars and twenty of them being archtops, some facts about archtops: -They are the most beautiful guitars for me! -The ergonomics and right hand placement when seated its unparalleled! -No much effort to have a good clean jazz sound, as opposed to some solid bodies that needs a lot of effort to achieve. -Luck of sustain is the key for a good clean jazz sound as we jazzers use single note lines and chords mixed, when the extra sustain of a solid body makes it muddy! -Easy to maintain and setting up, but more fragile than a solid body. -You can play or practise unplugged everywhere! A real plus. -Not so good sounding if you like to mix overdrive-distortion, especially for those having only a neck pickup and a big hollow body. -To own a high grade one you have to spend quite a lot, but this is realistic thinking of the materials and time spent to built one as opposed to some high grade solid bodies having a price tag that do not correspond to this kind of craftmanship and materials!

[@halimtan6776]

I have a 1999 Epiphone Zephyr Blues Deluxe made in Korea by Peerless. Looks and sounds awesome.

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Nice!

[@conradgittins4476]

I have a tele, a 335 and an Eastman 372 and my favourite is the Eastman. It's the lightest, it's well balanced and has a great jazz sound. I also prefer hold it in a classical guitar style but supported by a strap. I don't find it too bulky at all contrary to what might be expected.

[@jamieholroydguitar]

They are great guitars which I always recommend to my students

[@Trombonology]

Excellent discussion, as always. I actually think that archtops have experienced a resurgence in the past, say, twenty years -- which can be judged by the number of inexpensive brands/models that have popped up fairly recently. As you discuss with regard to looks, they're still kind of an oddity with casual music listeners or even players, simply because most people have been used to seeing (as well as hearing) Strats, Teles, LPs, SGs, etc for decades. Many serious players don't seem to grasp their application -- particularly the strictly acoustic variety. When I became interested in jazz and swing back in the '90s, I was instantly fascinated by the sound of the pre-Charlie Christian-era acoustic archtop, which was so different from the dreadnought I was used to. I'm a small chick, but I found it easy to transition to archtops, both acoustic and electric, because I've always been primarily an acoustic player. I'm a big believer in the idea that you can make any pickup-equipped guitar work for jazz and that you should play what's comfortable and sounds good to you. For '30s style swing, though, I don't think there's any replacement for a purely acoustic archtop, although getting used to the necessary heavier gauges can be a challenge for some.

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Thanks for your comment and opinion. String gauge does change the sound some too!

[@jameslifetimelearner]

I love the sound when they Bark!

[@Poodleoop]

Great comment! I think that you recognize the magical sound that archtop guitars have

[@michaelbarnett3721]

Archtops sound great for blues. Check out early Robben Ford when he played with Jimmy Witherspoon. Also his 1st album "The Charles Ford Band" has Robben playing an overdriven archtop. Of course archtops were used for country music as well.

[@duncansmith116]

They look great - and have a unique sound - so definitely hope it isn't the end for them!

[@jamieholroydguitar]

They’re almost as good as Telecasters 😉

[@jameslifetimelearner]

I love acoustics and the acoustic sound of my Loar archtop, having installed a Benedetto floater and Fishman bridge pickup, passive stereo output also sounds Devine.

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Very nice!

[@jameslifetimelearner]

@@jamieholroydguitar The Loar, not Lloyd Loar. 🏺

[@editorjuno]

Another vote for that Benedetto (Seymour Duncan B-6) pickguard-mounted pickup. I use one on my Epi Masterbilt Olympic -- a semi-reissue import with a pressed (rather than carved) top -- and have the factory Shadow piezo bridge wired up to be optionally blended in when I want a little more sparkle and string texture. The guitar has a fairly small acoustic voice but it sounds big and gorgeous amplified with a touch of reverb.

[@jameslifetimelearner]

@@editorjuno Having a deficit of class, I removed the scratch guard and used double sided gum tape to mount mine. After recarving and raising the bridge I added another layer of tape as it’s truly “floating “.

[@jameslifetimelearner]

@@editorjuno May I ask, do you also have the Shadow preamp system installed for the dual source mix? I’m using an EB-2 outboard pre.

[@chrisjanman8330]

Love my Eastman AR372, bit of a heavy lump but sounds amazing through my Princeton Reverb.

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Great guitars

[@dkelley9661]

Cost, lack of options or ready availability are the bigger issues. I have two inexpensive arch tops, both of which I love. They have a distinctive sound, playability. Now I want a great one: $3000-$6000😮. The snap, warmth, round tone of my D’Angelico is the draw. My biggest negative is that many of these have fret problems.

[@jamieholroydguitar]

That’s good to know about D’Angelicos.

[@Sinnsonido]

I have a hollow and a semi...would have more if I could. Sold a couple that I probably shouldn't have. I'm not a particularly good player but archtops are beautiful and there will always be a place for them, IMHO.

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Agreed!

[@duanetrivett750]

Hi James, that is a beautiful Guitar you have .

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Thanks

[@larrydering1598]

I love telecasters and own several but they by no means replace my archtops. Even the Tele thinline is no match for the warm tone of a good archtop. At least that's my opinion and feeling. At 75 I have owned and played many of all types.

[@gtrbarbarian]

That Yamaha is nice...i have the same one, but I replaced the electronics with a pre-wired cts loom and SD Seth Lovers...I made a huge tonal difference to my ears . You might try this worthwhile upgrade...The electronics were wonky from age. Yours sounds great though

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Very nice! Thanks for

[@erikbrooks7712]

the Craftmanship required to make an arch top is probably a lot more than for a bolt on neck assembled in a factory over seas. grew up playing a hollow body electric practiced lot around the house not plugged in,

[@casanovafunkenstein5090]

I'm really not keen on archtops because they're really oversized and require a lot more maintenance than a regular electric. I honestly think that a flat top sounds much better in general if you're doing a hollow instrument and the pickups tend to be really dark in a way that limits what you can do outside of that very singular sound from the 40s and 50s. I think that Danelectro kind of has it right when it comes to hollow instruments, oddly enough. They're light, they're resonant, they're stable and they're much more versatile than you'd imagine. I'm pretty confident that a Danelectro could excel in all the same applications as an electric archtop, whilst also being suitable for other types of music where the archtop would struggle.

[@PallHermannssonGuitar]

Great video with great points, Jamie! Having played solid bodies and semi-hollows for decades, I picked up my first archtop only a couple of years ago and it's the one that has given me the most satisfying sound for (mainstream) jazz. Archtops have become the type of guitar that I'm most interested in these days. Based on my experience, I thought they might be having a bit of a resurgence since they have been going up in price, but having watched your video, I'm now thinking maybe it has more do with lack of supply, with companies like Gibson discontinuing models like the L-5, except for custom shop-made guitars if I remember correctly (?).

[@jamieholroydguitar]

I think Gibson have long discontinued all archtops even the 330 although there is plans to bring that back

[@jameslifetimelearner]

All guitars in the States prices have risen $300-500 low end, averaging $3500 for mid priced acoustics. Eastman being most popular brand starting $1700

[@jefft7968]

I don't have anything of great value, but I love my archtops. The Godin 5th Avenue is usually the one I grab first. I play it almost every day. I have an Oscar Schmidt OE-40 which is 19 years old and its tone and playability are finally coming into their own after TONS of tweaking (and aging). I also have an archtop acoustic which my great uncle carried through Europe during WWII. It needs work, but it is intact and playable after 80+ years. I have a disposable Ibanez semi-hollow that I keep tuned to DADF#AD. My go-to solid body is an Un-Fender Esquire. I built it several years ago. It's a great guitar, and I play it almost as much as the Godin, but it is seldom my choice for jazz. Sorry for the chapter- length comment. I could have just said, "Archtops aren't going away, at least in my house". Lol

[@gregmock6808]

I love my archtop although it's not my go to guitar, it is a different instrument much in the way my nylon string is. I play a 335 and tele mostly ..I like thee archtop for solo gigs and recording Mine is an Ibanez Custom 125 ...much like the full bodied George Benson model and it's fully hollow with flat wound strings and a wooden saddle.

[@steveb9325]

Of course we do!!!!

[@MellowBlues]

I AM STILL PLAYING AN ARCHTOP AND I AM NOT A JAZZ PLAYER.

[@Tyson-u3m]

I do. Only play solid bodies when forced. Jazz guitars bothbsemi and hollow have the contols behind the saddles and that IS MY #1 PET PEEVE. I have a Jackson DK2 and dont play it. The damn volume knob is literally 1" from the high E and right between the pickups. Worst design ever. I didnt pay for it but still. That guitar is gorgeous!

[@stuartcowie8922]

The entire guitar industry seems to suggest that if you spend all of your money then you can recreate the early sounds which I find fairly ridiculous. Archtops are beautiful and there will always be a place for them. (Says the guy who has just bought his first one)

[@epf1961]

I think you're correct: Hollow body jazz archtops excel at one thing: Playing good music (ie, American Popular Standards) in a quiet solo or small group setting. As long as there are guitarists who aspire to keeping that tradition alive, there will be a market for them. Of course, it's a small, niche market, but that's been the case since rock and roll and the British Invasion, which caused real jazz to largely go underground (hence your proliferation of "tele's" and "strat's"). Nobody gets rich playing "All The Things You Are" on a big ol' archtop, and likewise nobody will get rich selling them. It's a specialty instrument built to create a specialty sound, created by musicians with an ear and respect for tradition, and appreciated by a select audience with exceptional taste! 😉

[@marioreznik3654]

A clean sound from an archtop is just that, a clean sound of a guitar. A clean sound from a solid body makes one want to get some pedals. Figure that!

[@To.Si.Ma.]

Have you ever used 100 or 250k pots on a semihollow with HB to get a fatter jazz box tone?

[@jamieholroydguitar]

I’m not sure. Not massively into semi hollows

[@hammill444]

Of course guitarists still play archtops. Pretty ridiculous clickbait.

[@garycoates4987]

I think it's time for a new style to take up the arch top if it's going to survive it's going to have move into younger artists coming out and pushing it forward.

[@daveduffy2823]

I got rid of my arch top. I find my solid body more versatile.

[@BeatsAndGuitars]

I have 7 arch tops….all I play for the most part. Don’t care what other people are doing lol

[@3cardmonty602]

I hope not. I’ve really become a fan of archtops after playing solid electrics my whole career.

[@jamieholroydguitar]

I agree!

[@riconadjar6221]

Hi Jamie, could you recommend a jazz semi hollow guitar without a floating bridge? Thanks

[@jamieholroydguitar]

I like 330s but Heritage and Yamaha are also great!

[@riconadjar6221]

@@jamieholroydguitar does Yamaha make a Semi Hollow Jazz guitar without a floating bridge?

[@Gk2003m]

The archtop makers themselves seem to want to kill the classic archtop. Eastman, over the past couple years, has eliminated the ‘floating’ pickup configuration from all but its priciest lines.

[@jamieholroydguitar]

That’s interesting I didn’t know that. Eastman are also one of the only brands that keep archtops going.

[@spartacusjonesmusic]

Very good discussion. Once had a Gibson hollow body, sweet as honey and warm as the beach in Nassau. Got to find me a nice, affordable archtop for my late-night musings. Any thoughts on the best choice for a pauper?

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Eastman AR 371 or an Aria Pro

[@spartacusjonesmusic]

@@jamieholroydguitar Thank you, brother.

[@Poodleoop]

I’m a professional jazz musician and I play Ibanez guitars (bone stock).

[@spartacusjonesmusic]

@@Poodleoop Nice. Thanks.

[@epf1961]

I'm not made of money either (although I do gig, so that sorta-kinda justifies the cost) but depending on what "pauper" means, I would advise you to try and find a USA-made Guild. The USA Guilds are as good (or better) than their Gibson counterparts but at a fraction of the price because you do away with that "headstock snobbery".. I bought mine 3 years ago (a 2001, Westerly, RI made X-150 Savoy) and it's been heaven every time I pick it up. If you're patient you can find a nice one for around $1,000, maybe a tad more (they made the X-150 from '98 to '05, so there are quite a few "out there").

[@VALINOR24]

The Gibson Les Paul is an archtop guitar and you see them on stages everywhere. So yes, people still play archtop guitars.

[@mer1red]

End of the archtop? No way, if they're not made anymore I'll start my own factory 😏. If Gibson stops making them it's because it's all about money and business for them, not about offering high quality musical instruments. The archtop is 1 of my 2 preferred guitar types. Not for psychological or emotional reasons. Clever construction concept derived from the violin. Very playable. If well constructed, a unique acoustic and pickup sound Versatile for a wide range of styles, from classical to jazz. Excellent for people with a classical guitar training. (By the way: the ES of Gibson stands for Electric Spanish guitar). Very ergonomical. The body size is definitely *not* a disadvantage but enables the best healthy playing position. Playing a solid body is a physical torture for me. There is only one disadvantage: feedback when playing loud, heavy rock and metal.

[@francoislecanadien1710]

And i'll invest in your company 😉

[@AnthonyShaw-ty9pi]

Great info👍 What string gauge, do you recommend for an archtop guitar. To get the best full round sound, without destroying your fingers. Lol😂

[@jamieholroydguitar]

At least 12s

[@jameslifetimelearner]

Flat or round ?

[@AnthonyShaw-ty9pi]

@@jameslifetimelearner What gauge?🤔

[@AnthonyShaw-ty9pi]

@@jamieholroydguitar Okay Thanks👍👍

[@jameslifetimelearner]

@@AnthonyShaw-ty9pi Some would do 15s on electric archtops, I saw Bucky Pizzarelli’s Epiphone at the Smithsonian and the strings looked like rusty cables. I think all they had were flat wounds. Please correct me…

[@MrMjp58]

An excellent video Jamie. I’m thinking of getting some form of archtop, but don’t really want to spend all that much. I tried a (single P90, non-cutaway) Godin, which was well made and sounded good, though it was a bit hard to play, I thought. Maybe I like the idea of them more than I do in reality. I don’t play any gigs. It’s just for home use. On the subject of live sound and live volume: when I went to see the great Pat Metheny, many years ago, whilst loud enough, his clarity of sound on a 175 was non existent. Although I enjoyed the gig, his solos didn’t come over all that well; though he always sounds perfect on record. Maybe it was the room (Manchester Apollo).

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Thanks for your comment, I’m not a fan of the 5th Avenue personally.

[@bobfig]

Hi Jamie, there's an Ibanez Artcore AK86 archtop on sale at my local second hand store for $350. It's made in China. Looks and sounds good. I'm thinking of getting it. Do you have any thoughts on the lower end Ibanez archtops?

[@jamieholroydguitar]

Only tried this one and it was a great guitar. Jazz students used them a lot back in the day before Eastmans. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aoLHdoCNfKito5Ysi=xW9LidUFjvey3JBE

[@Poodleoop]

I’m a professional and I use bone stock Ibanez guitars in all price ranges

[@bobfig]

@@jamieholroydguitar Thanks very much Jamie. Awesome playing in that video! Guitar sounds amazing. The one I'm looking at has more of a 175 shape, so I'm going to grab it. 😁

[@bobfig]

@@Poodleoop Thanks. I'm going to grab it!

[@jasonstacey9460]

I'd have ten of them if i could.

[@alexmarshall3815]

They're great, but they're not really that versatile. You can get equally sweet tones nowadays from guitars that are smaller, lighter, and more ergonomic. However I agree that people listen with their eyes ;-)

[@raffyzoo2130]

your straight bridge top make it play out of tune, replace with compensated bridge top. same with the guitar nut-get within one cent with compensated nut, out 5 cents now. closer is better for jazz.

[@ranman58635]

I sold my Joe Pass to buy a yurt to live in. I can afford to play such a nice instrument.

[@sega62s]

Yes a archtop is real cool , but you need to get one to your body. The dead of archtop? that is one funny thing to come up with, it will be there for a long time in jazz, compared to a solid body, we love to feel the music and hear it

[@jazzman1954]

They were designed before amplification and pickups were screwed onto acoustic arch tops originally. Totally impractical on stage in even a low volume modern setting due to feedback. Who plays with an un amplified bass and keyboard these days not to mention heavy handed drums. A tele with a neck humbucker is ideal. Arch-tops are a thing of the past and believe me I’ve tried everything. Why not put heavier strings on a solid? This is nonsense.

[@andreasfetzer7559]

People will play archtops forever

[@djizzah]

Almost nobody plays yamaha, thats true

[@bobfig]

Yeah, just Martin Taylor. Almost nobody! 😂

[@wilgenesis4470]

100% never.