The End of Singapore-on-Thames

In this new Federal Trust video John Stevens and Brendan Donnelly discuss the implications for Brexit of the past turbulent ten days in British politics. They conclude that the failure of the "mini-budget" marks the end of "Singapore on Thames" as a model for Brexit. It is however unclear what other model can replace it. The Conservative Party and the United Kingdom are therefore facing a catastrophic dilemma. Whether carrying on with Brexit or abandoning it, both courses of action will be exceptionally painful and disruptive.
SPEAKERS:
John Stevens is the Chairman of the Federal Trust and a former Conservative MEP.
Brendan Donnelly is the Director of the Federal Trust and a former Conservative MEP.
ABOUT THE FEDERAL TRUST
The Federal Trust is a research institute studying regional, national, European and global levels of government. It has always had a particular interest in the European Union and Britain’s place in it. The Federal Trust has no allegiance to any political party. It is registered as a charity for the purposes of education and research.
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#brexit #budget #ukbudget #kwasikwarteng #Conservativeparty #brexiteers #singaporeonthames #poundsterling #northernirelandprotocol #britishpolitics #scottishindependence #uk #liztruss #protectionism #inflation #costoflivingcrisis #ukelection #ukeconomy #toryleadership #ukelection2022 #cityoflondon #currencycrisis #irishreunification #euro #europeanunion

[@cassandra2249]

One of the most intelligent and informative discussions I have heard yet, regarding Brexit and it's implications for the future of the UK and the Tory party. Sadly I completely agree with these two gentlemen and fear for our future. Even I, a passionate remainer and very pessimistic about the whole Brexit project, did not foresee just how disastrous Brexit would be.

[@AudioLemon]

The very first time I heard of the Brexit my first thought was a weaker, poorer, less significant England, a united Ireland, and an independent Scotland. I am just a man on the street and it was blindingly obvious. Plenty of 'remainers', or people with basic critical thinking skills, were quite vocal about this and it was called 'project fear'. The English have always been very far up their own butts however it's not clear anymore if they will ever be able to climb out.

[@frolicwitme]

@@onlyme8117 Lol you again

[@simonjohn9525]

I can't see a way out either. All Brexit has precipitated is the break up of the UK just as you point out.

[@Lucid.dreamer]

@@simonjohn9525 When did that happen? Just out of interest?

[@Jan_von_Gratschoff]

Any talk of rejoining the EU is pure fantasy for generations to come. There's zero chance that the EU would even consider for the UK to rejoin the EU for a long time, since it wouldn't send a good message to anyone to allow a country shout loud and proud their idiocy and when the country inevitably goes down the toilet as a result, the EU would start talking taking them back. The more likely scenario is independent Scotland joining the EU, and a united Ireland doing the same.

[@davidlally592]

Actually Ireland (Republic) is already in the EU. As to whether NI linked to the Republic, would be auto- included therein: a difficult question. Tho when the old DDR was included in the Federal Republic, the then EEC said OK.

[@jontalbot1]

Very confident assertion. Listen to the more measured content of the video

[@Jan_von_Gratschoff]

@@jontalbot1 I did. The more measured content of the video is simply wrong.

[@youtubeurevil]

So where`s the 350 million a month that you would be spending on the NHS? Face it it`s a clusterF@ck!

[@sengs.4838]

As a reminder for all democratic countries, do not let extremist and far end politics take controls of population's anger

[@tomd5678]

Failure after failure after failure after failure. Government has to go. Tories should never be given any power again

[@aaronwilkinson8963]

We said that about labour

[@markwelch3564]

@@aaronwilkinson8963 Time for the Tories to take some time out for a decade or two then. Wonder who the Tory equivalent of Blair will be?

[@johnjeanb]

EU citizen here. The UK is not remoetely close to where an EU membership could be considered BOTH in the UK and in the EU. Here there is NO question that the EU would NOT start discussing with the UK unless a VAST majority of UK citizen AND BOTH key parties unequivocally support an EU application. Also, because of the recent history, a change of majority and a radical change in the Tory party (from populist to being pro-business and pro-cooperation with the European neigbours) happens. A correction: the EU's ever closer integration started in 1952, it is NOT new, far from it. Only the UK pretends discovering it and joined in 1973 to enjoy the economic union positive aspects

[@verttijineu2776]

It’s started in 1950 as a peace project when French Foreign Minister Robert Schuman said on May 9, 1950 ".. *the goal is to ensure lasting peace on the continent, through the development of production solidarity between France and Germany, making any clash between these two countries impossible."*

[@Lucid.dreamer]

Thank you. You are my EU friend. You recognise that UK membership is not in the interest of the EU, and not in the interest of the UK. We were and are, going in different directions. At last, a sensible approach. And of course the EU will never accept the risk of a half hearted membership. People who think the UK can just walk it in, they are deluded.

[@Lucid.dreamer]

The "ever closer union" is new to us. We were sold that it was simply a market. This "Indian rope trick" is why we left.

[@kimwit1307]

@@Lucid.dreamer "The "ever closer union" is new to us." I guess that means that the ability of the UK people and politicians to read and understand a treaty was just as bad then as it is today.

[@Lucid.dreamer]

@@kimwit1307 Social media... Alternative news... They were not prevailant when the EEC Was sold to the UK electorate. The UK was taken into the EEC *without a plebiscite.* Heath took us in, without a plebiscite. Something that, since Gina Miller, could *never happen now.* The referendum to remain in the EEC, in 1974, was sold was purely for market access. "Ever closer union" was neither mentioned nor explained. We were *not given a referendum on Maastricht or Lisbon.* Why? Because the politicians *knew damn well what we would say.* "That's why the *demand for a say overpowered the UK parties in 2016.* And at our first opportunity, we *SACKED THE EU.*

[@six-star-hotels5698]

Europeans for Brexit: Keep Britain out of the EU. End London rule! Free Scotland!!!

[@brianshaw9247]

Enjoying your insights from here is Montreal, Canada...it's a pleasure to listen to intelligent analysis that we never hear on the BBC (for example)

[@keacoq]

I think you are putting the cart before the horse talking of re-join. Surely the big first step is to stop digging the hole the UK is in. That requires important political figures to say out load that Brexit was a huge mistake,. Starmer is the obvious candidate for this. Re-joining is an obvious objective. But you canot talk rejoining until you have agreed that leaving was not a good idea. And that seems a long way off. But it is something that opposition parties should be leading. Why aren't they?

[@frze5645]

That last thing we need is for these anti-British Europhiles to once again start trashing Britain.

[@godehardbrysch7905]

Rejoining or a new referendum would only cause bitterness. The crucial point was the referendum itself. I agree to the statement that there were many different visions about Brexit. It's not difficult to find negative features in the EU, but it is also easy to find negative points in the current condition of the UK. Really a farce is the slogan: "This is not the Brexit I voted for", the ballot paper only asked: Leave - Remain.

[@TheEvertw]

The problem is, the hole has been dug. It is only taking a long time to fall to its depths. It will take a few more years before you really get there. There is little that can be done to save the UK, and the Tories are actively making things even worse. No-one knows how bad things can become, but wide-spread famine and hyper-inflation are possibilities. Sadly, people will need to experience these, before they are willing to admit that their misery was caused by the Tories and by Brexit. The English need to deal with their media and with the Tory party before anything can be done to save them. And there is literally nothing the Opposition can do until they are in power -- because of the flawed British political system of "winner takes it all".

[@sims7054]

Impossible to see the Union surviving in its present form & then the real damage and fireworks kick off. Interesting & balanced discussion.

[@therealrobertbirchall]

Yes there will be a huge change in England

[@rogerwilco2]

The really loud notification sounds are really distracting and annoying. Please turn off Outlook or whatever before a recording.

[@paullacey2999]

Was a big con this Brexit....

[@christopherward5065]

It seems that Johnson and Truss have stress tested our governmental systems and our democracy and revealed significant holes. The opportunity to move for repairing democracy and modernising the electoral system is here to be taken. The process would allow realignment with the EU and get us back into the trading block. Rejoining needs us to be very economically stable without the dramatic inequalities that twelve years of Conservative policies created.

[@verttijineu2776]

Why did Brexit win in June 2016? Easy: *metro* 7 Feb 2017 "A breakdown of EU referendum data has shown people with a lower education level were much more likely to vote for Brexit." *thetimes* March 10 2019 *“Science has dim view of Brexit voters’ brains.* Compared with remain voters, leave voters displayed significantly lower levels of numeracy and appeared more reliant on impulsive thinking”.. (Study by scientists at Missouri University) Researchers gave 11,225 volunteers psychological tests.."

[@Lucid.dreamer]

You people never learn a thing. There's no fool, *quite like a brainwashed, "educated" one.*

[@jimthorne304]

I am struck by the extent to which 'Brexit' supporters seem to have remarkably short spans of attention. Anything much over 3 words in length seems to result in a 'system overload', red lights flash, and they start shouting.

[@Lucid.dreamer]

@@jimthorne304 We kept it long enough to *beat the tar out of the whiney remoaners.* 😎

[@Lucid.dreamer]

@@jimthorne304 You can't keep our attention, because you whine like pubescent school girls.

[@davidedwards5260]

@@jimthorne304 and yet remoners can only come up with stupid unwitty comments .. mabe due to lack of an iq

[@paulfulton7968]

Independence for Scotland and return to the EU 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@Iamgone1961]

Off you go then

[@christav7021]

Bye

[@childoftheuniverse2644]

Saor Alba!

[@raginald7mars408]

Self Titanic senile Captains ignore self created Icebergs no empathy

[@richardcoppack5357]

Great analysis. I think that this is the high water mark of English nationalism. Gradual realignment of the UK with the EU will occur.

[@TheEvertw]

However, the two parts that have a change for much faster alignment (NI and Scotland) will break off and join the EU.

[@richardsimms251]

Very very good and a fairly honest discussion. Please keep it up ! Thank you.

[@colindant3410]

The excessively lopsided distribution of income urgently needs to be diminished in order to improve cohesion in UK society.

[@micheltibon6552]

My God! I am only in the first 5 minutes of the video and this Mr John Stevens speaks some very wise and thoughtful words that I have wanted to use as a comment on some of the post Brexit KZbin channels I watch. I never could clearly formulate it as Mr John Stevens does. So I never try to post my thoughts. It is like the speech of the PIIE President Mr Adam Posen did on during the AEI discussion in 2017 on the Damage Brexit will do to the British Economy. They, Mr Posen and Mr John Stevens, make so much sense to me. Stunning!

[@nickdoughty518]

thanks again guys. very thoughtful debate. your input to the mainstream media is overdue.

[@sararichardson737]

Brilliant discussion,if somewhat, further deflating. Thank you.

[@raymondwebb4179]

Good discussion, but sorry us remainers can go on and on we have left the EU , and no going back! Brexit was for the wealthy by the wealthy to be paid for by the less well off ,

[@markwelch3564]

If Moldavia can join, the UK can (re)join!

[@treyquattro]

thumbs up for the interview, big thumbs down for the hugely annoying device notifications. Since we've gone to a democratized form of journalism and news-gathering we've also been subject to a plethora of interruptions from notifications from phones, from email and messaging apps on the same computers used for production. Please turn off your audible notifications (this is to ALL producers of content on platforms like KZbin and podcasts, etc.) and let's have a bit more professionalism.

[@federaltrustevents5908]

Noted.

[@smoozerish]

This was a brilliant well thought out discussion and gets to the nub of the problems with Brexit and the subsequent difficulties of rejoining the EU.

[@Lucid.dreamer]

There's no problem with BREXIT. We've left the EU. The future lies ahead, and it only takes a respectable government to take advantage of it. We are joining the CPTPP. That will happen at the end of 2022 / early 2023. That's just *one* starting point for us. We have Digital Economy Agreement with Singapore. We have AUKUS, FTAs with the antipodes, one coming up with India, ASEAN dialogue partner status, WTO seat, and there is a great potential for USA to join CPTPP in future. Membership of the EU is a thing of the past, for the UK. So forget it.

[@townsendv58]

Thanks Guys. Factual, impartial and calm.

[@hablemosdepolitica-i2q]

Un análisis muy lúcido. Thanks.

[@cormacmacdonncha1052]

Very interesting questions and especially answers! Even though it was made pre the Truss departure, his short term assessment is still totally accurate. As an lrish person, I , and the majority of my countrymen and women l expect, would be delighted to welcome the UK back into the EU. We fear for Northern Ireland if this does not happen. This would be highly unlikely to be acceptable though, until there was a clear consensus of all major political parties and public opinion in the UK to convince other EU countries that it was not likely to lead to continuous flip-flop disruption.

[@myroseaccount]

Singapore on Thames was always nonsense. As the splendid William Clouston, leader of the SDP, pointed out, Singapore is a very disciplined state directed form of capitalism with heavy investment in infrastructure, training and new technology over many decades. Exactly the opposite of the typical view and approach of the Rees Moggites in the Tory party, the Brexit and Reform parties.

[@Detector1977]

There is no rejoining the EU for a LONG time. Too many factors prevent it. It doesn't matter how many billions it will cost, the UK will just have to adapt being a smaller economy....

[@rozzgrey801]

The EU will soon have to adapt to being a smaller EU, Italy, Spain and Greece have growing numbers of exiteers.

[@Detector1977]

@@rozzgrey801 Lol, as if that is going to happen. Those countries are getting a shedload of covid money so fat chance that will happen. Besides, they've seen how brexit has been going so none of the political parties in those countries are even talking about leaving anymore as it would be a disaster... In short, no other country is as arrogant and ignorant that they'd shoot themselves in the foot.... And Spain is one of the countries MOST pro EU in the entire union...

[@nicodesmidt4034]

PUT YOUR PHONE ON SILENT

[@willalm830]

The Europeans are not going to let us in, all we can do is cut the hostility, so saying we are going to rejoin is pontless

[@snowman2970]

If the U.K. has another referendum which is overwhelmingly for rejoining the EU would definitely be open to it.

[@kimwit1307]

@@snowman2970 Maybe, maybe not. The memberstates would have to agree too. France would need serious convincing I think. And the terms would be quite different too. No more exceptions or opt-outs!

[@snowman2970]

@@kimwit1307 Not saying that the U.K. won’t have to eat dollops of humble pie for this to happen, but it will still be economically worth it for both sides.

[@rg-cc5kg]

Rejoining the EU would take years, too much trust was destroyed. Definetely many EU states would be very reluctant. But joining the Customs Union should be no problem at all and I believe that is what you are going to do.

[@rozzgrey801]

The EU are the biggest financial support that Putin has got, the EU is effectively paying for Russia to destroy Ukraine. The EU said it could take 10 years to wean themselves off Russian oil and gas. To hell with the EU.

[@margaretbloomer9001]

Indeed. As a committed remainer and now rejoiner, I could never have predicted just how bad the effects of Brexit would turn out to be. I knew it would be bad of course, but one thing for sure is that both Brexiters and remainers now know a whole lot about the EU than before. The folly that is Brexit has exposed much ignorance of exactly what the EU does, and just as importantly, what it doesn't do. Eg: bendy bananas! None of this was properly discussed in the lead up to that preposterous, simplistic referendum, by either the leave or remain campaigns. Brexit was a protest vote, just as the election of Trump in the US at that time. A cry from the underbelly that railed against political complacency fuelled by bigoted rabble rousing. However, undoing Brexit would never be a simple as getting rid of Trump though. Hey ho....

[@JohnnyinMN]

Um … you heard of Biden? We got worse now.

[@johnmunro4952]

I recommend watching this video at 1.5 speed

[@Fortreys]

Agree with Brendan's conclusion of the Remainers underestimating Brexit's degradation in the UK political system, and in EU relations, & also in John's conclusion that a future Labour government's accommodation of the ESM, & of NI/Unionism, accommodates Scottish Independence. Thank you gentlemen.

[@andywent8457]

insightful discussion on Brexit trajectories

[@viquiben4919]

Very interesting, thank you.

[@andrewwatson5324]

From the start it was my concern that Brexit would lead to economic decline and the rise of fascism. Obviously I hope that this does not happen, but it will probably depend upon the outcome of the next election.

[@kimwit1307]

The first is happening already. As for the second, be prepared for growing support for Reform UK among the hardline brexiteers...

[@markwelch3564]

@@kimwit1307 Agree on the first! I think there's a strong enough network against the second though, aided by the fact that the right have very strongly tied themselves to the program that has just spectacularly and publicly exploded the economy. Their credibility is shattered

[@kimwit1307]

@@markwelch3564 the problem with the hardcore brexiteers is that credibility does not seem to matter much. They loved BoJo, Truss, JRM, Farage etc.

[@markwelch3564]

@@kimwit1307 They are a problem, but a small one. That cult-like unshakable core is 10%, 15% of the public at most. As an electoral problem, it's almost impossible for the Tories to solve now. In 2019 you could walk a line that kept that 10% on side without scaring the centre. Now, that line is nonexistent! Appease the cult and the centre will back away very quickly. Take a centre ground position and you lose the cult It is entirely possible that the Tories have managed to lose both groups at once!

[@kimwit1307]

@@markwelch3564 lets hope you are right

[@Shredx1]

You are demonstrating exactly why the tories are unfit to lead. They are simply not very clever if you think that Labour are sitting back and merely benefiting from not being tories. Did you miss the fracking vote that Mr Starmer brought which panicked them. What about the vote this week about the tripple lock? This is a proactive, strategic Labour party.

[@johnlittle2406]

STAMER AND THE tORIES CAN BOTH GO HANG ..we are out of the EU and the EU will now do us a great favour by not letting us back in .The Brexiteers and the EU establishment will both oppose any British rejoining .Isnt it good to have friends in high places in europe .😊

[@justsayen2024]

That was a very honest discussion regarding the tangled web of brexit and the degradation of politics in a whole. I think the only way out is a gradual closer alignment with the EU.

[@frankopanklaric]

You don't go swimming back to the Titanic. The EU is the abusive boyfriend and UK is the battered wife that loves a good strangle now and then. I wish you would come back. It's more money for my corrupt government to scam from you.

[@markwelch3564]

Agreed! If we align, and can point to how alignment makes everyone's lives better, the sovereignty argument flips around. When it is clear that the EU is beneficial, everyone will want their voice heard again in the EU parliament

[@Lucid.dreamer]

We're not going to align with it. We are diversifying from it.

[@rozzgrey801]

You'll soon change your mind when you see what will happen to the EU. Britain got out before things got really bad, the EU will be gone within 5 years.

[@genghisthegreat2034]

@@rozzgrey801 the EU gone "within five years" nonsense, was already palpable nonsense in 2016. Tick tock tick tock for the UK.

[@ashleyrussell-inhouse9541]

A brilliant dissection & parsing of the issues - John Stevens is a remarkable commentator. You have the gravitas to make a real difference on this - so please make efforts to invite the political community & those who matter into your weighty analysis - also maybe get your website refreshed - it doesn't match the quality of your content.

[@jontalbot1]

Hmm…credibility instantly undermined by imagining the Truss government would survive for two years

[@sylvia54lobo76]

Truss, etc., all employees/puppets of Zionist satanists. Wake up.

[@indricotherium4802]

Sadly Labour doesn't have the skill or will to articulate rejoining the EU. Even the centre and right of the party have only ever just trundled alongside the EU, never being strong advocates for or well informed of its benefits. They're as comfortable tapping into traditional Englishness as the hard-right Tory Fortress England faction - not as bloodthirstily but definitely on the same trail.

[@simonjohn9525]

By advocating a position on Brexit the Labour Party puts itself in danger of alienating a good percentage of its potential voters. i don't think it has any other option than to remain silent on the issue.

[@indricotherium4802]

@@simonjohn9525 : that more or less corroborates my point. If it was truly EU positive, the silence option would never have made it onto its agenda.

[@markwelch3564]

@@indricotherium4802 Political parties can only nudge public opinion, if they try to lead to boldly they risk leaving their voters behind There are strong pro-EU advocates in the Labour party, but their priority is getting elected. Advocating long term change is best done from outside the party system

[@indricotherium4802]

@@markwelch3564 : Your argument is sound at a time of relative political stability and relative contentment in the populace. But this has not been the case starting 2008, through austerity to brexit, its aftermath and now to this horror show. If the most productive political response of an opposition to sustain at such time is gentle nudging of public opinion I don't know what to say about the nature of the non-right side of the electorate nor of the opposition except that the two must be seeking out common ground with each other by means of an ideology of masochistic conservatism.

[@markwelch3564]

@@indricotherium4802 you have to work with the voters, that's the unavoidable truth If there's a sizable number of swing voters who don't want to reopen the Brexit box, you have to account for that Happily, closer alignment with the EU is an option that fits inside Brexit without reopening the box. Only the 1% hardliners will complain about that, and fanatics can and should be ignored for elections 🙂

[@andrewwatson5324]

It seems to me that a closer alignment with the EU, in whatever form, will boost trade and tax revenues, providing scope for future UK governments to boost the economy with minimal expenditure. Thus, it should be possible to make the case for a plan to rejoin, in the fairly near future.

[@genghisthegreat2034]

Why would the EU allow an unrepentant, recalcitrant UK, still in the throes of Greatness, back into the EU ? You don't seem to realise the distaste in which the UK is perceived in Europe, Orbán and Melloni excepted.

[@andrewwatson5324]

@@genghisthegreat2034 The politicians and others who are responsible for much of the animosity on the UK side are rapidly loosing credibility. This is both from the insanity of the Current Government and from the effects of Brexit. Over the next year or two the situation will continue to change, it's only a matter of time. Maybe you didn't notice, but Meloni, Orban and others don't talk about leaving the EU since they saw what happened to the UK.

[@genghisthegreat2034]

@@andrewwatson5324 you don't seem to see the perspective of EU States. It doesn't matter that the politicians in the UK who brought Brexit about may wane in the next year or two. Europe will not take the risk of readmission of the UK , only partly resolved on constructive membership, poorly educated on how the EU works, with a FPTP electoral system which marginalises all but the zealots on any issue. I didn't say Orbán or Melloni were at any time advocates of leaving the EU. They're not that naieve.

[@andrewwatson5324]

@@genghisthegreat2034 It very much does matter what happens to the standing of those that brought about Brexit, because once they lose relevance progress can be made, including in relation to things like electoral reform. The EU members will be looking at the UK from multiple perspectives, however membership is the end of a process that will take some time, possibly years, it is not the starting point and it may well be that the UK rejoins many EU institutions but has to wait a year or two longer than it would like before it is accepted as a member, whether membership is the stated end point at the start remains to be seen. I believe that you did imply that Meloni and others espoused leaving the EU, they used to, but not anymore.

[@genghisthegreat2034]

@@andrewwatson5324 you'll struggle to find any such implication in anything I actually wrote. It's there to be read if you'd like to revisit it. Here's the hard facts of life. There won't be any "joining of some EU institutions", while the issue of full membership is in abeyance. That looks far too a la carte for those of us who are full Members, and if many of your compatriots think like that, then delusion truly reigns. The Horizon Europe position vis a vis the UK, should be a crystal clear indicator. Alignment with EU standards and policies, if unilaterallyfollowed, would be welcome, but would be judged on the robustness of the follow-through.

[@xelakram]

We need to rejoin the EU and without any of those opt-outs. We can even ditch the pound in favour of the euro. We need a 'United States of Europe', or whatever other name it might be given.

[@oneworld1160]

Ready to pay the double membership fee as before, on the same level as Germany does? And then how do you get rid of your xenophobic population?

[@xelakram]

@@onlyme8117 What does that mean? The UK is but a middle-ranking nation which needs the EU. We are no longer that Empire that the sun never set on. The UK, without the EU, will slip and slide into poverty. We joined the Common Market, the precursor of the European Union in the first place because we were the 'Sick Man of Europe'. Now, after leaving the EU, we are well on the way to being the 'Sick Man of Europe' again. Nobody who understand economics would advocate leaving the largest single market in the world: The Single Market. A market of 500m + consumers. The very notion is absurd.

[@xelakram]

@@oneworld1160 Yes. Quite frankly, I am.

[@oneworld1160]

@@xelakram Great! Then ship all your xenophobes off to Rwanda and we csn talk.

[@derekmab7734]

Will the EU accept hostile and xenophobic UK back? It takes both sides to re-marry

[@DavidHoughton17]

KNN Cheebye Singapore on the Thames more like London in the Longkang ! Singapore's success is due many other reasons one of them is the policies of the PAP, its small population with a rich multicultural heritage having English as its first language and its strategic geographic position etc. Interestingly Singapore being an ASEAN member would never left ASEAN because of its dislike of Malaysia claiming they have the best chicken rice. The UK was the 3rd most influential member state of the largest trading bloc in the world in which could flex its influence beyond Europe. Just pure madness to have left the EU. If Singapore was projected as the the Gibraltar of the East during WW2 from London then why was it that "The fall of Singapore" was invaded by a foreign force that cycled down from Thailand. Lets face it Brexit was the worse decision has ever made and I wish real politicians like John Major were in the Conservatives but they were all purged by the pernicious right wing zealots.

[@jyvben1520]

Meanwhile Truss is out and Rishi is now pm (10 days ago), so only 4 days after this video ...

[@EllieD.Violet]

Isn't it amazing? 2 'experts' discussing rejoining or 'partly rejoining' without even knowing that 1. SM membership is for EU members and EFTA members exclusively, not for any random 3rd country. Guess who's a random 3rd country now. And 2. considering rejoining the EU without mentioning once that the UK is as far as Turkey from even meeting accession criteria. And 3. without mentioning that 2.) would require unanimous approval of ALL member states and those profiting from Brexit would very likely veto them. With 'experts' like this one all of a sudden understands the blatant stupidity in the common folks. Or maybe they just suffer from the usual British/English delusions of grandeur that EU rules don't apply to little brexitannia? Greetings from Bavaria 🇪🇺

[@EllieD.Violet]

@@eduardomg4066 Gruss retour! Man glaubt es fast nicht: nach ueber 45 Jahren EU Mitgliedschaft kennen sie nicht mal die grundlegenden Regeln. Lernen Schueler hier spaetestens mit 15.

[@amayastrata4629]

Guy Verhofstadt would welcome us back. It could be fairly easy and quick to return our laws to eu membership. A lot of them have yet to be abolished yet anyway. Then, the benefits of having the U.K. in the pot may still be a financial benefit to the eu overall in addition to the benefits that some have gained by us leaving. We’re hardly likely to get the medical and financial organisations back and we would more than likely be expected to enter the eurozone as well. Win/win for the eu and we get to have our veto back so not even Turkey could join if they wanted to and we didn’t want them to. Then the Bill that’s going through Parliament now wouldn’t go ahead and our worker’s and consumer rights would still be in place. Etc, etc.

[@Bruintjebeer6]

@@amayastrata4629 The UK got a reduction on their far share they had to pay into the EU because the country was dead poor when they joint. Once the UK became wealthy they refused to pay their fair share and with their empire complex thought they could dictate the rules. They never committed to the EU and never show themselves as a part of Europe. They wanted all the benefits but not the consequences that belongs with being a member. Even during the negotiations over Brexit they thought they could dictated all the other countries and just gave them a paper with all the requirements and told them to sign. Johnson wanted to unilaterally cancel the agreement with the EU and destroy the Good Friday agreement so he could create a hard border between Ireland and North Ireland this year. Do you in earnest think that we are waiting for the UJ to become a member again? Most of Europa is glad the UK is gone. At the same time the other countries that were thinking of leaving realized it is a bad decision. Even the countries with the most rightwing government. Oh and it is not up to Verhofstad or any other person to welcome the UK back. All members have to vote for it and the vote need to be unanimous.

[@davidlally592]

Well said - one of the many factors resulting in people in England and Wale therein voting brexit (remember NI and Scotland voted overall bremain) was a nostalgia for a British Empire that doesn't exist anymore. And just over 100 years ago we Irish began the process of dismantling that!!

[@thediscokidd]

A much better case is put forward by the FInancial Times in a short film released the other day- it’s on KZbin…

[@johnstevens1022]

I agree the FT piece is an extremely good summary of why Brexit has created real problems for Britain (and likely to create more), and anyone interested in the issue should look at it. But it does not address the issue of rejoining the EU as a full member: the only solid solution to those problems. Indeed by dwelling on the exceptionally hard Brexit Johnson has landed us with it hints at a softening of Brexit rather than its total reversal as the only way forward now: and is thus part of the paralysis Brendan and I touch on in this piece. The purpose of the Trust is to prepare the ground intellectually for a full return to the EU by exposing and debating the difficulties and changes of British/English attitudes, primarily on "Ever Closer Union" and the euro, which will be entailed in achieving that outcome.

[@lisboaprince4513]

Very well explained by this gentleman

[@mauricerose3082]

...Merchantilism-on-Thames...

[@davidpearn5925]

You have to remember that the majority almost certainly DIDN’T want to leave, but not believing it was a serious possibility combined with the freedom to not bother voting and with an infantile suggestion that a one vote margin would be sufficient, has firmly established the idea that Britain isn’t competently administered. Strewth cobber !

[@rvdn4592]

A very good discussion. Thank you. If only MP's could speak like this instead of the constant evasions and lies one has to experience.

[@edwardbrady5843]

Brexit arrogance, you cannot fix stupid.

[@genghisthegreat2034]

Discussion of " alignments " is a presumption. There will be no cherry-picking of elements of advantage, without deep, core commitment being demonstrated to the entirety of the EU Project. And PR by STV would be a very reasonable requirement now too.

[@Lucid.dreamer]

The UK is never, ever, going to adopt PR for general elections. And we do not wish to be EU members. The UK is joining the CPTPP.

[@genghisthegreat2034]

@@Lucid.dreamer fortunately for them, you get to persuade as many as you can of your point of view, and may even reverse the current polled trend of British opinion, which disagrees with you.

[@Lucid.dreamer]

@@genghisthegreat2034 Anyone who takes those "polls" as, in any way, meaningful, is slap out of their tree. Off their scone. A few steaks shy of a barbecue. Anti brexiters are dumb enough to buy those ridiculous "polls". Leave supporters won't even touch them with a barge pole. The only people who respond to those are anti brexiters with an axe to grind and a few freakin screws loose. Or bored people with nothing else to do. Leave supporters have *absolutely no intention of giving anti brexiters the impression that it's open for debate.* Because it *isn't.* If you anti brexiters want to form a circle around those "polls" and toss your cookies, more fool you.

[@genghisthegreat2034]

@@Lucid.dreamer you don't seem to have understood my point. I don't much care about the level of support for PR currently in the UK. It's your own internal business, for you all to resolve among yourselves. My point is that the EU 27 will want to see that form of electoral representation, or equivalent efficient mechanism for reflecting all viewpoints, before considering any application by the UK for readmission. We've had enough of the see-saw revolving door negotiating positions. You say they'd never reapply, that's fine too. I'm just pointing out what we'd need to see if they did.

[@genghisthegreat2034]

@@Lucid.dreamer I'm not in either of your categories. You're a bit slow today. I'm an EU Member State citizen. All your anxty stuff with your compatriots ? Take it over there, out of earshot. No interest here.

[@michaeltagg492]

This idea of Singapore on the Thames means Malaysia on the Clyde, Mersey, Tyne etc. Singapore GDP = $70,000, Malaysia GDP = $11,000. That's the economic reality.

[@geomac650]

His name was Grubby Davis.....

[@peterkavanagh64]

To realign the financial bissyes us to revite and count to 70 million. Now attach emotions to each individual number. So with thus in mind I would say a multi party leadership with all seeing Thier ideas respected with that idea the seers abd ground water been priority. By no cost to the tax payer by tomorrow. Will see civil war to an aside . Bexit was yesterday and hunger ytoday is brought yo thst leadership. Snserr this

[@mikeOnTheChoob]

Did you write this after a hard night out, Peter? What does all it all mean?

[@unknownpulsar4725]

The Labour party is not pro-European. Saying nothing about Europe before the election will appear the smart move, but once there is a Starmer govt the historic nativism of Labour will seek a "Labour Brexit" that will cause as much chaos within and without the Labour govt as Boris' Brexit has with the Tories.

[@geoffreyhughes9979]

It is time to rejoin the EU.

[@Karlm01]

To soon the UK needs time, twenty or more years are needed

[@geoffreyhughes9979]

@@Karlm01 Thank you for your comment.

[@ohgosh5892]

Rejoin is a process, just like Brexit is a process. We could start rejoin tomorrow.

[@geoffreyhughes9979]

@@ohgosh5892 Thank you for your comment.

[@skwc08]

@@geoffreyhughes9979 Hold your nerve, you got your country back? All the laws the EU made are behind you? Even though none have ever been mentioned. The crown is back on pint glasses in bars, what more do you need?

[@trek520rider2]

Thanks to Brexit, because I live in the US, the insurer for my house in the UK has dropped me.

[@npblosch19]

Please, Sir, ... I want some more ... ⊙⁠﹏⁠⊙

[@tomthumb2361]

The truth is, Europe presents a dilemma. On balance, it was better to remain than leave, especially with the opt-outs. I can't see us now doing much more than rejoining the single market, for instance. Joining the EURO is just not on. I think the EU is likely to have to re-shape itself and loosen up, so there may be opportunities ahead if we re-align ourselves positively in relation to the EU in the meantime. PLEASE stop using the term BREXIT!! This is a pro-leave-loaded formulation which helps maintain the leavers' domination of the narrative. Interesting analysis, as always, but a broader historical view even than the one you offer is needed to make sense of where we are and what might happen.

[@ianedmonds9191]

Inciteful comment. I'm impressed and agree. Luv and Peace.

[@TheEvertw]

You do not (yet) realise the depths to which "Brexit" will bring England. In the end, you will be happy to sacrifice the Pound -- as it will have fallen to junk status. Agree about not letting the leavers dictate the narrative, though. But to take the narrative, you will need to deal with the billionaire media and the BBC first. These are now propaganda channels for the fascists.

[@trident6547]

Don´t you understand you cannot hoin the single market. It is a perk for members of EU and EFTA only.

[@dogwithwigwamz.7320]

The majority of the people that I know to have voted to leave the EU wouldn`t be found dead listening to YT videos either in favor or out of favor with the EU. The Referendum reminded me of the populist approach wich favoured Sunderland beating Leeds Utd, in the 1973 FA Cup Final. But, of course, it is nothing like, and those that voted to leave will rue the day - in my oppinion.

[@Johnconno]

Inside Brexit Britain. By next year I'll be walking around Tarkovskys Zone. As a Stalker. 🔥🌑

[@edwardbrady5843]

Get brexit done, sovereignty, bendy bananas 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆

[@yorkiegilly4355]

Poor old duffers missing their Holiday homes on the European mainland because if it"s had to get there and with oncoming Dementia might forget where they are ,anyway lots of Luck with your enterprise to get back into the E.U. - it will be just like getting into that old comfortable smoking jacket . Bless ! . 🧙‍♂.

[@adriancollins1879]

17.4 million people knew what they voted for however how much you disliked the outcome. Independence and freedom from an unelected, unaccountable, undemocratic group of failed politicians in Brussels. We are all on our guard not to be Betrayed so accept losers consent. If you cannot then I am sorry for your distress.

[@adriancollins1879]

@@Deadlus-p3m I rest my case.

[@montyriviera795]

Here here..

[@margaretbloomer9001]

They weren't unelected. I don't know about you, but I always voted in European Parliament elections. Did you know that you had MEPs?

[@grahambaker3837]

Considering the disarray in Europe at this precise moment, isn't it foolhardy to start talking about rejoining? Is Ursula von der Leyen any more attractive than Liz Truss? Would Singapore even think of getting into a Southeast Asia Union with Indonesia and Malaysia?

[@guleiro]

What dissaray?... Europe has members with differing voices and from that consensus emerge. No problem at all with that mechanism.

[@dogwithwigwamz.7320]

Do you mean to equate Singapore with London ? There can hardly be a greater difference between two cities than that which lay between Singapore and London.

[@JohnnyinMN]

Disarray in Europe? How’s Britain doing a year later?

[@garygray6545]

Singapore is far more civilised than the UK; and the weather is much better, so not likely to be able to compete?!

[@stephenyoung6608]

💦 𝓅𝓇𝑜𝓂𝑜𝓈𝓂

[@roboldx9171]

Brexit means Brexit. You voted for it. Get over it.

[@townsendv58]

Funked the economy good and true.

[@bm8641]

Whatever

[@jasonkingshott2971]

Unfortunately for you, the democratic majority of the UK disagree. The EU had many opportunities to change their ways, they didn't, and we all know what happened next. Btw, the UK public never sanctioned being taken into this organisation.

[@freakygoblin3068]

ROFL... What democratic majority? There's a reason brexiteers were so afraid of a democratic vote on the actual brexit planned. Poll in 2016 showed 60% of those who voted leave did so expecting to stay in the single market/customs union.

[@jasonkingshott2971]

@@freakygoblin3068 Oh dear, sounds like you've been listening to too much EU propaganda BS. When the elected pro EU David Cameron, the then Prime Minister called the 2016 referendum, the terms and conditions were, based on the 'first past the post system, 'in-out', 'once in a life time' vote, with the caveat 'the result must be honoured. These T&Cs were agreed at the pro EU Westminster and agreed by representatives from all four corners of the UK and overseen by the UK Electoral Commission. That's how it works in the UK, unlike when France, Ireland, Denmark and the Netherlands voted for no further EU integration and were told to vote again until they get the 'correct result' I guess a clash of cultures.

[@freakygoblin3068]

@@jasonkingshott2971 My you really do not like facts do you. Last election more people voted against pro-brexit parties than for them so there was no democratic mandate for brexit. That's ignoring the fact that the referendum, according to UK democracy and a decision of parliament was non-binding. Parliament could have made it binding. The "four corners of the UK" were not truly represented with Scotland and NI wishes ignored. The other countries such as Ireland were not told to simply vote again, terms were changed as they should be in a democracy and they were given a chance to vote again on the new terms. A system of democracy were people had the chance to actually vote for something known as opposed to brexit where people didn't know what they were voting for and were not allowed to vote when the terms were known. Even the representatives in parliament were not allowed time to consider the terms as is normal in a real democratic system. No wonder brexiteers still cannot come up with any real advantages to brexit.

[@JohnSmall314]

"the democratic majority of the UK disagree" That was in 2016. Times are changing. Now that the real purpose of Brexit has been exposed by Truss, steal from ordinary people and give to the rich, not many people are in favour. Only a few more years of Brexit and it'll be 70% in favour of rejoining the EU. The argument, "We must stick with the Brexit disaster because people voted for it 10 years ago" is not going to be very attractive in 2016.

[@nmarks]

Democracy as we know it is nonsense. It was devised around the time of the Bible and, like the Bible, it's an oversimplified vestige of the ancient world. Its biggest flaw? That it fails to distinguish between different voters. Not convinced? Let's use an analogy: football. Suppose that at the start of the season Real Madrid sacked it's entire squad of world-class players and replaced them by randomly recruiting from a list of the tens of millions of football players around the world. Would you expect Real to win the Champions League with a squad like that? No chance. Not one competitive football club in the world is run on that basis. Instead, competitive clubs make sure to distinguish between different players and place different values on them according to their skill. Players like Mbappe, Haaland and Vinicius Jr can command transfer fees in excess of a £100 million because they are among the best in the world, but what about Joe Bloggs, an 18 stone, 40 a-day smoker who plays for the Dog and Duck Sunday League Team? What transfer fee do you think he would command? If your favourite football team started being run along those lines, you'd be livid, but that's exactly how one-person-one-vote democracy as we know it works. One-person-one-vote democracy says that we must value every single voter exactly the same, regardless of their knowledge, their understanding and their competence. That is its fundamental flaw. In one-person-one-vote democracy, two drunks outnumber a professor. It emboldens the ignorant while drowning out the wise. A great deal has changed since the time of Ancient Greece and holding on to one-person-one-vote is a huge mistake. A more sophisticted form of democracy is needed than merely counting bodies.

[@aaronwilkinson8963]

God willing there won't be an EU to rejoin

[@charlesbruggmann7909]

I forget which Brexit promoter compared to the EU to the Holy Roman Empire. He looked rather stupid when it was pointed out to him that the Holy Roman Empire survived over 1000 years. Rather longer than the UK.

[@aaronwilkinson8963]

@@charlesbruggmann7909 The Holy Roman empire didn't sanction Russia a source of cheap gas. Gas that power the industry of Europe, Germany especially.

[@stephenconway2468]

@@aaronwilkinson8963 Firstly gas is one source for energy and it is the difference in cost that is hitting the EU. That difference is manageable even when it hits so quickly. Consider that a second, the EU is surviving such a big hit when I suspect you thought it would just collapse. The UK on the other hand has gone from one political and financial crisis to another since we voted to leave. No serious person can deny the link between Brexit and the mess we are in. Europe (as you strangely put it since we are part of Europe), or rather the EU has managed the covid crisis better, managed the supply induced inflation better, managed Brexit fallout much better and now this Ukraine invasion is also less of an impact. Do you like to talk facts and figures, or do you prefer irrelevant factless opinions. The problem is that in both camps your opinion is losing out. You were wrong then and still wrong now. Any chance you will learn from it?

[@aaronwilkinson8963]

@@stephenconway2468 The EU isn't like a house of cards that falls in one go.

[@aaronwilkinson8963]

@@stephenconway2468 We join the European Union we will be in crisis because they are in the same crisis as us.

[@Armadacon]

Common Market: Good. EU: Bad. Change my mind!

[@mikeOnTheChoob]

Change your own mind.

[@nicks4934]

Ignore facts?

[@ohgosh5892]

EU: Exists. Common Market: Historical, does not exist. UK Economy: Destroyed. Just the facts.

[@Armadacon]

@@ohgosh5892 I think you've missed the point. The UK joined the Common Market. It was a good thing. It was nothing more than a group of trading nations. Then the Politicians got hold of it and ruined it. If Europe had remained nothing more than a group of trading nations, we wouldn't have left.

[@trident6547]

@@Armadacon The common market was never just a trading union. It started with the formation of the Coal and Steel Union in the late 1950.s. The idea was to prevent countries of Europe ever ending up in a war with each other by getting them tied up in a close web of trade and other relations. It evolved into the EEC that UK tried to jopin twice but was vetoed by de Gaulle who knew UK would be a trojan horse for USA. UK was only accepted after the third application when de Gaulle was gone. Of course UK joined only to get the economic benefits, having seen how the GDP of UK lagged behind the GDP of the EEC countries. Still in EU official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix. In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%. This is counting votes in the EU Council of Ministers, which passes most EU laws jointly with the European Parliament. So now that you are out tell us about the benefits you now have and the impacts they had on the economy of UK and yourself.

[@Lucid.dreamer]

There's no such thing as "reversing brexit." And there is not case for rejoining the EU. You don't have one.

[@bryangeake5826]

Correct, there is rejoining or simply joining the EU!

[@Lucid.dreamer]

@@bryangeake5826 I agree, Bryan. How perceptive of you. But ofc, the UK will *never, ever trigger article 49* because the EU is a crock of kaka doodoo. Isn't it? It has *absolutely nothing to offer the UK.* We've rejected FoM, so forget that. And.. CFP, CAP, ECJ, SM, CU, EURO, ECB, Schengen, monetary union, fiscal union, financial union, tax harmonisation, debt mutualisation... All the EU *rubbish that goes with paying for the privilege of running a deficit.* The EU is an *absolute crock of ESS AITCH AI TEE.* It has *nothing to sell the UK. Zilch.* And silly smarmy rejoiners seek to drag us back into that mi·lieu. That steaming pile of doggy doo. The UK electorate will never permit you to do it. So forget it. We will have a civil war if you ever get near trying and you will be *stopped.* if you push it, it will come to bloodshed.

[@bryangeake5826]

@@Lucid.dreamer Now you are really talking prejudiced claptrap! Your evidence is???? Running a deficient was not the issue, the EU was and will be again the UK most important trading partner worth £300 billion a year and 43% of our export market!! AND we had the rebate AND we had direct EU grant that the likes of the UK government are not matching!! The deficient we ran was because WE HAD and still do HAVE to import 50% of our food 30% comes from the EU!!!! The overall ratio was for every £ we put in the economic multiplier effect was at least £5 if not £10 to GDP due to trade, investment, the productive flexible labour force due to FoM and direct EU grant, the Welsh Assembly are really bleating about that loss!! So this "It has nothing to sell the UK. Zilch." is total claptrap!!! This "The UK electorate will never permit you to do it. So forget it. We will have a civil war if you ever get near trying and you will be stopped. if you push it, it will come to bloodshed." Oh you really do have crystal ball, or is this more fire and brimstone from the Gods of the Brexit Faith; I am not persuaded by your Biblical protestations, and anyway if you are so convinced why not have a confirmatory referendum on the matter! Chicken!!!

[@davidnorthrop2298]

exit brexit.....KGBrexit

[@Lucid.dreamer]

Here we go again, appealing to "polls". *GROW UP.*

[@hughbasham4389]

The funniest/saddest thing is this pair do not understand how they are wholly representative of the reason people voted for Brexit. Anybody who supports the BBC, Claire for Calais, the UK continuing to give huge sums to foreign nations, multi-culturalism, (not diversity) "the arts" "the french" etc etc will never understand why Brexit happened. Until these things change and the minimum in the private sector wage is £20 per hour there will continue to be an underlying trend of resentment. As for these pair, every word they utter ensures we will never surrender to rejoining the eu

[@ianedmonds9191]

If you believe in the Singapore on the Thames model you better own the company you work for because otherwise you are the loser. Once they get rid of the worker's rights the Unions and the EU have fought for and made law you are in a shitty position as an employee. I used to work with a lot of Americans and plenty from Houston TX. They worked crazy hours, had no real holidays over about 7 days with the rest of the other 14 days coming out of sick pay. They were all subject to random drug tests. They couldn't resign because then they would lose their health service. They were just about the most oppressed workers I've ever known and they all believed it was normal. One guy I knew who was a good friend was a senior manager at a global level and he felt like he was being shortchanged especially on healthcare. On his global manager salary with a responsibility for literally Billions of dollars he lived in the suburbs in a 3 bedroom semi-detached home. The company was famous for paying amazing dividends to shareholders. The CEO of the company made $21,933,682 last year. That's almost 22 million dollars. My friend was no more than 3 or 4 reports away from the CEO. America is not a good model for worker benefits. Luv and Peace.

[@sararichardson737]

So odd that so many triumphant Brexiteers tune into to watch these discussions.

[@RealMash]

@@sararichardson737 They know deep down they fucked up and will fight the messenger of their doom instead accept the error of their ways. Typical idiot behavior,. I am german, I enjoy the theatre and the movement of jobs, money, companies, scientists and thus Tax revenue to Europe quite a bit. Go on Brexiteers, Brexit the gift to Europe that keeps giving!

[@TheEvertw]

I'll tell you why the People voted for Brexit. It is because they felt the squeeze as a result of Austerity, but the media told them it was not austerity that squeezed them, but the EU. As simple case of fascists creating a problem, then blaming an invented enemy so they could manipulate the masses through fear and anger. Exactly what the Nazis did a hundred years ago.

[@Iamgone1961]

I’m sure you do, especially with the money that the uk contributed

[@ulfosterberg9116]

that is one reason uk will not be welcome back. It did not pay its part. Then we have the problem with the customs fraud which uk have been carged 2.7 billions for. Par example in France ther is a referndum for any country wanting to join. How do You think you and The general uk citizens would vote If the situation would be reversed and you would vote for France joining If they had defrauded uk with a customs fraud worth 2.7 billions pounds........

[@jimthorne304]

I doubt that Labour would win a large majority at the next GE simply because they are 'not the Conservative party'. I believe that many voters who are committed to EU membership or other policies, e.g. action on Global warming or local nationalism will opt for parties offering something positive that will appeal to voters for whom these are important considerations.

[@johnstevens1022]

I hope you are right, but FPTP is powerful.

[@RealMash]

@@johnstevens1022 Well, from the continent I am confident you will learn how to set up a fair election system. Just after the mass riots because people get hungry and cold, that is.

[@alisterwest6987]

Hi jokers