The Environmental Health industry - incompetence being taught...

I got a letter via a client from an EHO - demanding he damp proofed a house. This led to looking at how they are trained, and finding they are basically lambs to the slaughter. Incompetent training, taught to 'diagnose' rising damp, and making complex legal decisions about how people live, and how to treat landlords, based on complete bullshit. See our websites at www.heritage-house.org, and www.heritage-survey.org...

[@dash1789]

Peter. Another great video. I've seen first hand how this whole industry works with a recent house sale. A Rics chartered surveyor doing a mortgage survey insisted our buyers have the house checked out by a damp proofing specialist based on "high damp meter readings". I was present when he turned up to do his survey and within 5 minutes diagnosed rising damp using solely a protimeter. No exterior checks were done and we ended up with a quote for £1500 for chemical injections. I completely dismissed his findings and asked if they could do carbide test. I was told that they dont provide that test and it was "quite a specialist test to ask for" and they didn't know of any other firms local that could provide it. We have a situation where a bit of kit is available to show the exact moisture content in any given wall and the "damp specialists" dont use. That shows the height of the scam that's occurring!! Argueing your case to estate agents and "surveyors" is a thankless task. You are made to almost feel like a conspiracy theorist and it shouldn't be like that when the science tells us rising damp doesn't exist! This whole monopoly needs smashing apart.

[@WarmDryHome]

It is happening slowly - I'm one of the joint authors of the new RICS 'Investigation of Moisture and its effects in traditional buildings' methodology. This is now accepted and becoming mainstream. Follow it, and you will never diagnose rising damp. The methodology is underwritten by RICS, CIOB, UK finance, English Heritage, CADW, Scottish Heritage, and others. What you need to do, if you have a problem, is insist that the RICS surveyor that said a damp survey was needed, is pushed to use the methodology - RICS admit that most surveyors have NO understanding of moisture in buildings - and that academic courses need to change. Cases like this need to be referred to the RICS - I can land the documentation on the right desks - and have the bank or building society concerned made aware. If the valuation was done by countrywide, they are basically corrupt and incompetent - and we need to push the issue quite hard to get things to happen. The methodology is the starting point for this.. Email me [e-mail] if you need.

[@andypsunshineisle5655]

Friend of mine is a landlord who had a single occupancy flat with no problems . Then the tenant got a partner who moves in. First winter start having damp issues and tenant complains and states that father says there is rising damp. Landlord goes and gets local damp people to inspect, man walks in and round the flat,turns to the tenant and says you have condensation issues and need 2 venting fans to change the air as the flat has been well modernised and is too airtight for double occupancy. Now waiting to see what the fans wil do over time. There are some good contractors out there but how do you tell the good from the ill informed. Perhaps you could suggest a series of questions and wrong answers. Enjoy your rants and have picked up a lot of useful tips as i have a late 19th century stable-lodge conversion and i have acted on bad advice in the past.

[@WarmDryHome]

Thanks for the compliment :-) As for the flat - be careful just with vent fans - they really need to be humidity controlled - so they draw dry air in, and push damp air out - crossflow ventilation as it were. Focus on kitchen and bathroom extraction - is there a cooker hood and does it work - extract to external? If not - sort it! Bathrooms - need big gap under door, fan on, draw moist air out, warm dry air in - can't suck on a vacuum. Need to aim for 7 grams/m3 water - and keep heating always on, aim for 15 degrees minimum ALL the time - which prevents moisture issues. Shout if need help!

[@philpassmore4922]

Well said Peter. The professional bodies in this country have a lot to answer for!!

[@dudleyjoseph9485]

Great video as usual Pete. I'm a little surprised about your comments in relation to PIV systems. I've recently installed one and have had good results in a reduction of moisture levels in lower part of the house where we have some original flagstone floors. I have been regularly checking temperatures and relative humidity readings in many areas (including the loft space) and converting the figures to absolute readings. The loft (which only covers a small part of the upstairs of the house) has consistently lower absolute readings than other areas. It is well ventilated. Your comments I guess apply to cases where a loft is not well ventilated?

[@mickyfinn023]

Surely if you have a well ventilated loft then the humidity should be lower than the rest of the house. I'm looking to get a piv system and would be interested in your take on piv Peter if your loft has low humidity?

[@Lord-Brett-Sinclair]

Dudley Joseph I have a Piv in a rental house, tenants not complained in 2 years. Best £600 I have spent.

[@dudleyjoseph9485]

@@Lord-Brett-Sinclair I'm pretty pleased with mine so far. I know there could be improvements with the controls but its way better than the situation before I installed it which involved 20 mins on cold mornings getting condensation off windows.

[@soarlikebird]

Mr Ward. I am a lay person and I enjoy your videos. Very educational. I have one question that I hope you can answer. I live in a detached bungalow in the very wet north of England. I do not suffer from any ‘damp’ problems. However since we have lived here (6years ish) I have noted heavily condensated windows in the mornings during the winter months. In particular in our master bedroom. (Clearly caused by us human occupants). In the past year I detected a fusty smell when I was led in bed at times. Ventilation by having windows slightly open made no difference. The windows also have trickle vents. (Upvc). Despite the piv claims sounding far too good to be true I took the plunge 3 months ago and installed a unit in my central hallway. Since then we have had no visible condensation on the windows and I have not detected any fusty smell. My assumption was that the piv unit was replacing the moist air with fresher drier air, therefore no condensation. Piv appears to have worked in my situation. Or am I mistaken? What are your views on this scenario? Thanks.

[@dudleyjoseph9485]

I'm in similar situation. My conclusion is that if the absolute humidity level in your loft is generally lower than inside the house, you are bringing in drier air which must be displacing other air which in my case is wetter. I guess Peter would remark that these PIV systems do not have enough control associated with them i.e humidistat sampling absolute humidity levels.

[@markbusby9709]

Well said Peter......

[@WarmDryHome]

Thanks! Keep putting the message out there - need to create some form of 'go-to' place where folk can get help - I guess our websites help, but we dont have the resources to anser all the queries...:-(

[@petergambier]

Great stuff as usual Pierre. I slake & make my own putty mortars. Last year on a lime pointing job an old builder told me that the correct pronounciation of slake is slak, never knew that. Loved the killer statement at 13:07: '90% of the water in a building comes from human Beings.' Amazing that this was in the printed blurb from the CREH, the chartered institute of environmental health themselves. Why, if they know the most probable cause do they continue with their ignorant mantra? I suspect a similar story can be found with the flue-liner business, do you put in a chimney liner or not & do you use vermiculite or not. I would also argue that this liner will greatly increase the speed of any burning spark/embers landing on a thatched roof. A flue liner on it's own means you burn less wood because there is a better draw of the air. Perhaps if we followed the money generated by these industries we might be able to change things. Recently got called up on a KZbin video-post where I'd explained (1 year earlier), that this injection system sucked and he was misinformed during his 2 day training course with certificate. He wasn't happy I'd slagged him and his industry off and asked me to explain myself. I'd typed that the cream/liquid/special chemical he injects does not form any kind of barrier other that where he injected it because this liquid CANNOT permeate through to the next left or right drilled hole about 5 inches apart and will NOT form a barrier because the cement mortar is usually too dense and the injected liquid too thick for it all to penetrate anything, even under pressure. I never got a reply. As you said, houses need ventilation and the cheapest way is to sleep with open windows at night and after any bath or shower open the windows. In Victorean homes you can still see air grills or bricks so that air can circulate under the ground floor. If you have high ground near a building take away the damp soil and dig in a French drain, a perforated pipe and cover with different grades of stone and chipping, and let gravity take the moisture away. Much higher temperatures are needed to make cement much less with lime. Lime also absorbs carbon dioxide and can give you much better acoustics in a room. I have also told clients that for internal colours you can use the cheapest emulsion paint rather than the excellently expensive lime paints available, good though some may be. Recently learned about a mineral called 'Phillipsite' (part of the zeolite framework/group) discovered in the lime & tuff mortar used in Roman Harbours piers and sea walls. When sea water makes contact with the phillipsite it causes crystalline tobermorite structures in the mortar which expand and harden making the material far more durable. They are stronger today than when first built. Various wise mentors have told me that the longer something takes to dry the harder it becomes. Phillipsite takes about 10 years to form Recently discovered another great money spinner with the electrictro-osmosis kit that you mentioned. An electric wire (from the mains?) is embedded along the wall in the mortar with a small black junction box fixed onto the surface. It had the name Rentokil on the lid, inside were the 2 frayed wires at either side fixed with a nut and bolt. I know that Rentokil do the injection method into the brick or the mortar of buildings but I cannot find anything on this particular system. Not sure how this works exactly, any thoughts please?

[@chewbaka6394]

The next thing they will be blaming damp issues to global warming 😂

[@WarmDryHome]

Yup - probably already are...

[@masseyferguson7243]

have a house 1984 put all new skirting in it..black spot appeared along bottom of skirting...i changed the skirting and put on a strip of dpc and now it appears down the hall further..what do i do thank you

[@jonesconrad1]

Peter when I bought my house there was damp plaster issues in the kitchen, the mortgage company demanded a damp "proofing" treatment, luckily my solicitor was wise to it, you advised in the comments here to look at the condensation, funnily enough guess what humistat extractor fan and the problem went away.

[@WarmDryHome]

Fantastic! Great to hear a bit of sense, and simple solutions. Kitchens often are an issue - make sure cooker has a hood and it extracts to external, and its used all the time...

[@adamsnape9254]

Peter we have damp in our brickwork of our mid terraced house what can we do to combat the problem as it is know on lining paper

[@WarmDryHome]

All about moisture in the air - usually best option is ventilation - have a look at the ventilation stuff on the heritage-house website - damp paper is nearly always that because of too much moisture produced in the house and not removed - ventilate kitchen, bathrooms - to external wall, using HUMIDITY controlled vent system (Vapourflow website is brilliant) and problem should reduce or go.

[@DenzelLN936]

Hi Peter, i am soon to qualify as a building surveyor after working in the building trade for 15 years. I am wondering about the claim that rising damp doesn't exist. I have built walls out of the ground off a foundation many times, sometimes out of brick and water that has collected either side of new wall will rise a small way up the brickwork. Would you classify that as rising damp?

[@dickiedubs3137]

I recently saw a cellar that had been bubble wrapped, they thought they had a water leak but in fact behind the wrap the walls were soaking and black with stinking mould and slime. It was a health hazard. They tell you need injection cream and then bubble wrap.....what does that tell you about the cream.

[@WarmDryHome]

Obviously if water as a liquid is around a brick it will get wet. Houses do NOT stand with feet in water - if they do, of course those bricks will get wet - but it is very clear from any observations you make of walls in rivers, harbours, etc that water does NOT rise up those walls by more than a brick. That's just physical saturation. Thed whole rising damp thing, in which it is claimed water rises metres up a wall, is bollocks. As you are soon to qualify, I suggest you acquaint yourself with the new RICS dampness methodology that I'm a Joint Author of - www.heritage-house.org/damp-and-condensation/rics-joint-dampness-methodology-statement.html

[@two-countiesdashcam]

Must disagree about the loft space; lofts should be well ventilated and dry, if damp then it's normally due to insulation being stuffed into the eaves. Once again lack of ventilation. Consider that many many lofts have been converted into habitable spaces and done correctly remain dry

[@robinbanks183]

i agree ive just installed a piv, its been only running a few days and the posotive results are unbelievable humidity levels dropping by the day no condensation on the windows this guy worrys me

[@MostynWitham]

ianoch I agree with you too. I install PIV for a living and see the positive results daily. Peter is often correct about damp proofing in general but his views on PIV are misguided.

[@NevilleHayfield]

U the Man 👏💪👊👍. I love this shit 👏😎 I'm a plasterer. Been spreading for nearly 30 yrs. I've learnt more in the last 2 yrs than I did in 25+. We just told to smack gypsum on everything. As you said. That can cause a lot of problems itself. The amount of jobs I've done in the last 2 yrs where it was supposed to be rising damp, when I ripped off, put lime back, checked everything ventelated and problem solved. Sometimes as simple as taking off the waterproof paper or Paint. As was holding the damp. Love your videos. Learning loads from you 👏👏🤗👊👍

[@patriciaangeles4816]

A lot of people don’t understand about heating your property and also ventilation

[@WarmDryHome]

Absolutely - we try to give the background on the website (www.heritage-house.org) but there is a lot to know and understand. Constant heating, and remove moisture at source...

[@dannymurphy1779]

What are the BRE doing in all this then??? Surely they ought to be taking the lead in what is the biggest issue in domestic building. I was disappointed to see a builder, Roger Bisby, aka Skillbuilder, still believing in this myth of rising damp. It seems the older builders are very reluctant to face up to the fact the things they were taught are wrong and have no basis in science. It is a shame as he has a big following.

[@jimjohnston1416]

We nearly lost a house due to Natwest insisting on a PCA damp survey. PCA survey reccommended £5k of chemical injection and timber treatment and Natwest insisted we do this work before they can lend Utter joke. Luckily got a mortgage with another lender with no problems and soon found a leaking drain under the dining room floor which has been the cause of most damp problems. Together with this drain, all the windows painted shut, all the air bricks covered up and cement everywhere. Drain is now fixed and cement all gone and the house is drying out nicely. Natwest would only take PCA reports and no other professional opinions but they could not explain why that was the case.

[@greyknightsrealm8251]

We had the same request from Natwest a few months ago on our C17 grade II listed cottage. I got a proper RICS surveyor to come and look at the place (which I was doing anyway) and made sure he put in his report that there was no damp. Natwest accepted this.

[@jimjohnston1416]

Interesting. We also had a full RICS survey and professional report from a specialist within English Heritage but Natwest didn't want to know. The problems started when the banks own valuation surveyor ticked ‘damp’ on their basic one page survey form which kicked off the PCA nightmare on our 1880s house. Its a corrupt system between big banks, the PCA and chemical industry.

[@leewakefield8658]

I am surprised they have not recommended installing a beehive shaped thing made from two jelly moulds and a bit of circuit board, it is about as effective as knapen tubes but far less damaging and much easier to remove.

[@WarmDryHome]

Ha Ha... ! With a few scientology church prayers to go with it....

[@MostynWitham]

I normally agree with your views on damp proofing but I do feel that you opinion on PIV is wrong. I agree that it could be that initially there may be damp air in the loft space but within an hour usually this is dissipated by the process of displacement. I would have thought that you would have been behind PIV as this is very much what landlords need with tenants that dry clothes indoors and never so much as open a window. PIV is a fantastic solution to many condensation issues within the home.

[@WarmDryHome]

It's not really as its not exchanging damp air for dry air - what we need is complete control over the Absolute - measured in grams/ m3 - ventilation systems need to take into account WHERE there is damp air, and whether there is a source of dry air, even if it is very cold, that can be used to remove and replace the damp air. PIV is not properly designed by people who understand the relationships between temp/RH and the Absolute - and they dont measure total moisture content. They are very well marketed, and those behind them think they are clever - but break down the science, and it doesnt work!

[@danielmason2390]

You have saved me ££££ by not using a damp proofing company that said to take all my floors up, some timber and one concrete and put a membrane in and concrete the lot.....NO!!! It was built in 1870 when believe it or not concrete wasn’t invented then! I ignored that after watching your videos and took up the concrete floors replaced them with Timber sub floors with floods of ventilation, chipped off all the Gypsom plaster previously fitted 1.5m up which was trapping salts and it’s bone DRY!!!!! I will now replace it with lime ash plaster and jobs a good en’! Can you tell me though Peter, where salt was present on the bricks should I add a salt neutraliser before replacing with lime ash to stop damp spots? Thank you and hope my little story helps other also save ££££

[@seandanes3945]

Ive seen ruins about 1800 years old that used concrete foundations pal.

[@robinbanks183]

@@seandanes3945 Exactly, The Romans used concrete

[@seandanes3945]

@@robinbanks183 i think the concrete is even latin lol

[@danielmason2390]

I look a bit of a Dick now don’t I, but he saved me money put it that way 😂

[@amyswale7061]

Yes the Romans had lime, volcanic ash concrete.

[@honeyglazedgammon2318]

People who work as EHO’s don’t know anything about building maintenance, they’re operating in a vacuum with their limited knowledge, they should make a note of it and refer it to a property department. This stuff happens all the time. I remember a post fire incident I had to attend, which had spread up a tower block, because they’d removed the asbestos fire protection on the grounds of ‘safety’, fine, but they never replaced it with an alternative. I wouldnt get too carried away with referring to EHO’s as professionals either, there’s a lot of jobsworth paper pushing that makes up that job now.

[@petermelia6343]

Thank you! Your videos & website have been an excellent educational resource, I'm a Carpenter by trade and am interested in any further reading you could recommend.

[@dynoguy]

Well said, i highly respect people who don't fear confrontation, saying the truth and standing behind it seems to be a dying skill nowadays. It's not just the housing industry,... poor (or utterly wrong) training happens pretty much anywhere, you pay £xxx, sit some nonsense exam and within a week or so, you are a so-called expert, entitled to tell the poor customers all sorts of fairy tales. My day job is electrical/mechanical engineering, certainly no different there. I've recently been on the hunt for a property and had a bunch surveys done (mandatory mortgage survey only), these things are just full of BS and save-my-butt phrases, but the real issues i've usually seen straight away are almost never been pointed out. The one i finally bought was denoted as "possible signs of subsidence", luckily he washed it down a bit, saying it might also be some older settling, so it didn't hurt much. ....well, he was wrong, entirely., but at least it helped with negotiating on price ... :-) I actually inspected the property before paying for him, so i was kind of expecting that sort of "diagnosis" It's a bungalow, timber frame on a concrete slab with an outer single brick shell, quite well built in the mid 60s. It took me less than 5 minutes to identify the real issue,...the lime mortar was completely washed out in some weathered areas at ground level, causing a few shifting cracks in the bottom of the brick wall, most of it just in the pointing, ... .previous owner tried to bodge some of it with cement mortar, but did not bother to re-set the bricks... getting that crap out and cleaning the bricks was actually the hardest part of the job.... finally, a bit of time, lime, sand and patience fixed the issue.

[@Viperandy]

Thankyou very much peter for this sharing this information with us . I’m extremely great full and glad you guys know what you’re talking about . Shame on you Birmingham city council..

[@Danish1der]

Do any other countries "suffer as much as we do" with rising damp problems? The damp industry reminds me of the timber treatment industry in this country as well.

[@davidharris4062]

Apparently not, I have been told by someone who worked there, almost unheard of in the Netherlands, most of that country is below sea level

[@sheep1ewe]

I hawe newer heard of it in Scandinavia, but there are a lot of scammer here too, sadly. On the other side wrong types of paint has became a serious hell here since the 70s, i would say it may be like at least 40% of all mold problems in modern buildings here are caused by that... It's realy, realy hard to get the proper types of paint here.

[@wookie110240]

Your videos are informative, thanks.

[@WarmDryHome]

My pleasure - feel free to shout if you need owt - we try to help, but are a bit swamped sometimes!

[@stevengordon2145]

I have a client with this exact problem, ground level at back building is far too high. Almost 100mm towards the conservatory doors Now Wally damp man! Has come In and told him injection around the building in almost every room in the house. Worse still house is like a tomb insects come day later stone dead.. I've beged him to clear soil and put in french drain. and get better ventilation within the building.. I pray he takes my advice.. Thank you for being a light within a very dark situation..

[@JayCWhiteCloud]

Simply excellent!!!

[@dickiedubs3137]

I live in a Victorian semi and I'm having many of these issues but I can't find a tradesman who knows anything about lime. I did find one but he's that busy he's booked for 12 months. So I decided I would have a go myself. I did a short course on limecrete and plastering and all was fine.....BUT I can't buy lime plaster anywhere near the east Midlands. It's a real problem for people with old properties

[@WarmDryHome]

Try googling EcoLime - it's not hard to find suppliers - Ty Mawr will ship to you ready mixed, Tom at Eco Lime is great - 07538 129909. Shout if you have problems and I'll help.

[@peterfriel5129]

Condenser Boilers are a con too !!

[@Electrologue]

Hi Peter, I am a junior Architect and all I have to say is thank you very much for your informative videos. I have learnt more through your channel than I did whilst in architectural education, especially regarding older buildings. Its nice to see someone talking straightforward sense!

[@WarmDryHome]

Thanks! Have a look at the new RICS methodology too: www.heritage-house.org/damp-and-condensation/rics-joint-dampness-methodology-statement.html - I've also done a bit on breathability: www.heritage-house.org/news/breathable-masonry-paint.html Shout if you need help! Pete