The "Est" Archetype Makes No Sense.

[@Gunther930]

What I've gathered from this video is that Myrrh is an Est-Gotoh-Tiki archetype

[@MythrilZenith]

Now you're cooking

[@AudreyII970]

We really should just start calling them Ninos, thats who we're all thinking of anyway

[@Alector12]

FE 7 has pretty much perfected most of these archetypes. When we think of Gotoh, chances are we actually think of Athos. When we think of the important clutch Jagen, we might be thinking more of Marcus from either FE 6 or FE 7. And Nino of course is the quintessential example of an Est.

[@marcoasturias8520]

People really get this flustered for a time zone, uh?

[@MythrilZenith]

You don't understand, there's EST and there's EDT and they're DIFFERENT lol

[@juicyjuustar121]

Ive honestly never heard the "good bases for their level" thing before. My perception of the Est archetype has always been that theyre a late-joining (last third of the game, give or take) unit who is unpromoted, underleveled, and pathetically weak compared to the rest of the army when they join. This is generally the definition that it FEELS like people use for Ests, even if its not the one they explicitly state when questioned. Many cite good growths but, like you say, there are... Genuinely very few Ests in the series who actually have noticeably better growths than the rest of the army.

[@aetherius6221]

Which is a shame imo, big growth rate is big impression

[@juicyjuustar121]

@@aetherius6221 yeah, it's also weird because like... a 5-10% higher growth only equals about an extra +1 to a stat after 10-20 levels, so they're not usually going to end up that much better than anyone else. They really need like 20-30% higher growths than everyone else in the army to actually have a noticeable payoff. And that's not even considering stat caps, which most regular units can already hit a lot of if you 20/20 them

[@aetherius6221]

@juicyjuustar121 for something like defense; a 10 or even 5% difference can be significant after 30 levels but pretty much any other growth I agree.

[@elius1548]

I think it’s funny because people say “Est” but what they really mean is “Nino” they just say “Est” because FE1. To my limited understanding, Nino is the platonic ideal of our misnomer archetype “Est” and things which have similar ~vibes~ as Nino may or may not be referred to as an “Est”

[@smileswithriles]

I feel like Est as an archetype largely evolved around Nino and then was applied to Est. IMO the only archetypes that are actually common and meaningful are Navarre and Jeigan

[@MythrilZenith]

I would add Minerva to that list personally but that might just be a me thing.

[@jacobkakyoin6882]

Christmas Knights are undeniably real, even if from Fates onward they've been a lot more willing to make them not be cavs they're still keeping the theme on purpose, even retroactively made characters in Echoes Red/Green themed on both routes just for this reason.

[@smileswithriles]

Totally fair re:Christmas knights, slipped my mind while writing the comment. Minerva I could see but their execution varies more than those others.

[@Mikimaki7267]

I think Gotoh is also a rather meaningful archetype

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

​@jacobkakyoin6882 And the axebros. You always get some axebros. Just some bros, with axes. Sometimes they're fighters, sometimes they're not, sometimes there's two, sometimes there's three. Usually they're kinda meh, but sometimes they're good. Sometimes your axebro is an axesis, and sometimes your axebro is an axedad. The beauty is the axebros never took it personally. There's no one ideal of an axebro. No monomythic identity of the axebro. Just some local hearties willing to step into the role of an ongoing collective, to recieve the axe from the last generation of bros, and then pass the axe forwards to the next in kind. They're not the guys who will go into the history books, but when some local lad or lass is in a bad way, you can count on the axebros to appear once again.

[@manolito.7zip]

"Late joining project unit" is what I understand when someone says a unit is an Est. Archetypes like these are shortcuts in conversation and trying to give them concrete definitions is just futile sadly.

[@Venomdrad]

The Est archetype is fan-made and loosely defined. For me it’s just a unit: * Who isn’t promoted but has good growths and decent/good bases for their level. * Comes later in the game. They stick out because going forward you’re gonna get pretty much all pre-promoted units. * Takes some time and effort to train due to their lower level and doesn’t have as much chapters to use in compared to earlier joining units. Units like Est (more so in remakes), Zeiss, Nino, Miranda, and Coirpre fit the bill mostly. However, how they play out varies depending on the game. I know TearRing Saga has an “Est” like cavalier named Lina with stupidly high movement growth and base but awful strength/defense growths. Remakes aside, characters considered Ests haven’t really shown up in modern games. They got replaced by the trainee types.

[@wouterW24]

I think people talk about the archetype a lot because a shadow of the archetype exists in a way, especially Est herself leans more into it in later appearances, and Nino is from the first western game, gets plot hype and slightly better growths. But for the most part IS seemed to experiment with parts of the concept without sticking to clear rules. I'd say the most consistent Est concept seems to be a somewhat late project unit that draws attention to itself by being oddly low level and also tend to catch attention in other ways. Even if they are actually straight up bad. Sophia is a mysterious part-dragon level 1 Shaman, Elicia is fairly straightforward. They are quite inviting to start a late project even when not efficient with various degrees of payoff, even if they happen to be straight up bad anyway. But trainees seem have mostly replaced the concept and they are much more codified then the Est eve was. And mid game complete package high tiers with high bases+growths exceeding early joiners also are a bit more common. Although Rosado seems vaguely interesting with his awkward bases, slightly above average growths, and being the Eirika showcase drawing player attention. That does meet my minalistic ''late project unit bait'' definition, since he sticks after the midgame oven ready high tier squad. Might be IS is starting to experiment with that again, but time will tell if the next game does it again or he's just a victim of Engage weird unit bases design.

[@lpfan4491]

Est is relatively straight forward actually. It gets funky when people told me a few years ago that Clarine and Priscilla are "Marias" because they are little sisters who are the second major healers to join. And I was like...what? That straight up tells me nothing.

[@tricky2795]

I personally don't think the "Maria" and "Lena" archetype add any value, since you can just replace it with "Healer" without losing much context So I never use it, I just say "here is your healer"

[@Xertaron.]

"Late joining unit with potential that requires you to go out of your way to use them" is my definition that also fits FE1 Est, and it conveys all of that in one word. The same goes for Nino, Miranda, and some other units that were mentioned. Zeiss is not really an Est, he's worse than Melady sure, but you don't have to babysit him to make him good - he's perfectly capable at base, he just doesn't sweep the whole map like his sister. Staff users aren't Ests, because the only things that matter with them are their staff ranks and magic in games where it's relevant, so they don't need good stats to be useful. How late is "late"? That depends on the game, but the general rule I go for - If most/all enemies from that point are promoted, then you're entering late game. I don't know what term I would coin for units like Karla, Lucia, Marisa, Wendy or Ewan - "A unit that joins way later than another unit in the same class, while being worse in every single way and adds nothing to the team". But none of them are Ests, they're just bad units.

[@topazlight1586]

I PERSONALLY tend to consider an “Est” to be a late-joining unpromoted-but CAPABLE of promoting-unit who is mechanically a “normal” unit (i.e. as opposed to a gimmick class like a Manakete or Dancer). I do not consider there to be any other criteria for their class (I WOULD consider Coirpre/Charlot to be Ests, for example), but I do think they should be noticeably weaker than your other units as of their join time. Coirpre and Charlot’s fragility satisfies this, for example, but it’s also why I’m so iffy on if Zeiss should be considered an Est. As for what “late-joining” means, it honestly depends on the game. I’d PERSONALLY say “last third” or “last 40%” or so of the game. I also don’t think every FE game HAS an Est, nor do I think there’s any archetype that’s in EVERY FE game aside from maybe the Cain/Abel pair (which I have my own hot takes about but that’s for another time, haha)

[@neongrey333]

an est is nino. just nino.

[@naotoueda2838]

Jeritza and Gilbert are EST ????? XD My theory is most players started with FE7, loved Nino, and wanted to categorize similar to Jagen archetype. Then searched on FE wiki to see which unit in FE1 looks like Nino. But actually playing the games, I notice only Nino is what people define as Est. Even Navarre is a better defined archetype as early mrymdon with killing edge, even when mrymdon only exists from fe4 onwards.

[@MythrilZenith]

Navarre and Minerva are far more relevant archetypes from both a gameplay and story context but they aren't talked about nearly as much as Est.

[@pholleenphorrest1063]

​@@MythrilZenith thats probably because its much easier to grasp who a Navarre and who a Minerva is in other games. Ests are talked about so much because it seems like everyone defines them differently. Honestly any character that's generally under the "est" banner is one I enjoy using even if they don't all perform the same way.

[@Devmon52]

I've never been a fan of the Est archetype. If anything, I think it is a consideration for a sub-category of Trainee which has a strong basis for qualifications and definitions. Furthermore, it is nice to have labels with function and I am unsure the Est archetype label provides any meaningful description. The harder it is to accurately define something, the less powerful the label becomes. Even in the first place, does knowing what an Est help people understand the role that a unit plays? I'm going to say that Trainee does a good enough job in some cases and in others it feels like Ests are just weaker units who have joined later. I would honestly be fine retiring the term as it isn't one that I use frequently. Jagens are much more well defined, Trainees are flexible enough with a strong name to give instant impressions and expectations. I even enjoy the "Christmas Units" (formerly "Christmas Cavaliers") as a a term because it covers a relationship between two units more-so than the identity of the units themselves.

[@MythrilZenith]

I've started using the term "Late-game training project' to be more specific. It's 4 words instead of 1 but it gets the point across much better. Sure, it still has the relative vagueness of what "late" means but it doesn't necessitate ALL the baggage that the term "Est" carries, like being bad, or specifically having good growths, or any of that. The more we dilute the term "Est" in order to apply it to more units, the harder it is to gain any actual information from the use of the term. Just like the more we broaden out the term "Jagen" we end up losing the usefulness of the term.

[@Devmon52]

@@MythrilZenith I like that term way better. I think I might start using "Late-game training project" too. Thanks!

[@EdwardoFE]

funniest part of this video is that the gameplay in the background skips over recruiting FE1 Est(and is going to kill Tiki).

[@MythrilZenith]

When the enemy decides to completely ignore Marth it's easy to go faster than Est appears. RIP Mercurius for that run.

[@ness6099]

very simple, "Est" = "Bad unit I'm going to use anyway"

[@cmousers]

This has the same vibes as B99 when Holt goes on the Dr. rant of medical professionals co-opting the term

[@xamadfp]

A TotalBiscuit reference in 2024... Man I feel old now. RIP TB.

[@MythrilZenith]

One of the first people I ever started watching on KZbin. Trust me, I feel old too.

[@draconic1100]

Est is definitely a term that people have not decided a definition for. I have thought of this a lot and imo an "est" is a late joining training project, this is the only way I think an archetype can include a lot of the units who are trying to be like this especially est herself, so good growths aren't necessary Idk if that just came out as word vomit, rn it seems like it's just a term people throw around with knowing what it means

[@hadoukenfighter]

I had something else originally I was going to type but as I kept watching I realized the definition of Est that I grew up with back in 2003 isn't the same one as others are projecting in 2024, I'm right there with you on "I have no idea what people are talking about anymore with these labels" EDIT: Also if we're being honest, there hasn't been a late joining under leveled unit in an FE game since FE9 and even then I'm not sure if I want to call Elicina an Est.

[@MythrilZenith]

I know, right? The archetypes felt like they made more sense back then. Now they're so slapdash and broadly applied that they've ceased to maintain relevant meaning.

[@SP_Sour]

I agree with the suggestion to start saying Nino instead of Est. I played SoV recently and found it really strange that despite Est having the "late joiner, high potential" reputation, she joins at nearly the same time as Palla and Catria, and doesn't end up significantly better than them even if you train her.

[@MythrilZenith]

Her very high resistance is a nice feature for SoV but yeah outside of that she's pretty darn similar thanks to the class bases on promotion system.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Late joining, under par unit that rapidly gains power if favored. Contrast Magikarps who are under par units that must be favored for most of a game before they pop off at the end. Just like ests, magikarps also suffer from the base of the archetype, magikarp, not meeting the archetype, because Magikarp is most notable for being a relatively early game power spike, not really late game potential. And don't even get me started on the Moon Druid archetype, who is extraordinarily powerful at the beginning of the game, weak for the middle 80% of the game, then suddenly comes back as terrifying at the very end of the game. Or the Falchion archetype, which is a weapon or option that, while not especially powerful in the big picture, is available early with low investment required and can carry you until your Magikarp (but not Magikarp archetypes) is ready to take over. Also confusingly this falchion is not the falchion from fire emblem, which isn't even a falchion, but the falchion from Demons Souls and Dark Souls, which is a falchion, but has weird characteristics for an actual falchion

[@lrrrrulerofomicronpersei8688]

So an Est is more of a Dratini. Who isn't as bad as Magikarp at base but comes somewhat later in the game and you have to grind quite a bit due to it's late evolution. Dragonite, despite having a larger stat total than most pokemon in gen 1, isn't necessarily the best in the game. I still don't think this is the best comparison to an Est tho, but I guess its a point.

[@OrpheusMC]

I can see your frustration on this, it’s definitely a “feel” over “details” thing. Your FE8 example shows this. Detail wise, Syrene fits the archetype great but Marisa feels more right to people.

[@MythrilZenith]

Vibes check, sure. Is it so bad for wanting a semblance of reality to define terms that are assumed to have contextual merit though? Chapter 10/12 in a 22 chapter game makes Marisa feel more like Fir than Est, and EVEN THEN she doesn't have the actually explosive growth that Fir can have. I feel like some units should be allowed to be islands and not need to be forced into an archetype. Not all archetypes exist in every game. And that means the archetypes actually mean something. Instead, trying to use Est to describe any trainee when the game doesn't have a late game trainee type unit? Feels really confusing and annoying.

[@mysmallnoman]

This is an issue because people are so obsessed with categorizing everything that they lost the plot lol

[@willbill6942]

Exactly. These archetypes exist solely to cross compare games, which in terms of game analysis, offers such little value. Not to mention they were formed around the GBA games and retroactively applied to the NES era games 90% of fans haven't played.

[@VelvetKitsune]

I just call the Est of a game the latest joining unpromoted unit, as long as it's at least half-way through the game, growths don't really matter in my case, but that weirdness is probably just me, hah.

[@MythrilZenith]

I mean it's a fair enough definition, but at that point it's kind of a "why have this be an archetype name at all?" Type of situation.

[@tanphamnhat969]

I would say, I have a way to define an est: A late-game growth unit when just kind of before, currently and/or in the future you get like a buffet of pre-promoted units

[@jemolk8945]

The definition I think of is a late-joining training project (late-joining specifically in the context of being a training project) that is underwhelming at base but when trained, feels really good to just throw into a bunch of enemies and watch them go. I don't think any of the other criteria matter, and I don't think such units exist in every game by any means. It's a name for a vibe, if you ask me -- one which IS doesn't actually seem very interested in. TBH, most FE games don't really have one of these, but I think a lot of fans, myself included, really want them to. In terms of who is an Est, I have my opinions, and maybe commenting on them will clarify what I'm thinking of a little better. Going through the various candidates in the games I've played thus far: FE4: I'm fine counting Coirpre, because he really does feel good to use in combat once you get him there, and he takes real effort to get there. FE6: Sophia doesn't really qualify, because her growths just aren't high enough to be reliable. Hard mode Zeiss is definitely out because he's far too strong at base to qualify. Training projects don't join with capped or nearly capped strength. Normal mode Zeiss could count, though. FE7: Nino is pretty near ideal. I just wish she wasn't in such a bad position versus Nergal and the Fire Dragon. The anticlimax there really hurts her unit feel, IMHO. FE8: Myrrh doesn't qualify, not because she falls under a different umbrella like Tiki, but because every time you use her, you're watching her limited supply of attacks tick toward zero, and with it, eternal uselessness. Makes you want to use her as little as possible, rather than train her up and let her run wild. Ewan I'm a bit iffy on, but not for the usual reasons -- I just don't think any amount of lateness could affect unit feel in the same way in Sacred Stones, due to the Tower. That said, if FE8 has an Est, he's it, and I think he's very near perfect as well in terms of both training arc and power at his height. He just feels good to use when trained. FE9: Elincia is the only real candidate, and she doesn't really end up feeling great as a combat unit no matter how much effort you put in, so I don't think she qualifies. FE10: Kurthnaga counts because he really does eclipse most of your other units if you can cap him out, even more so thanks to Formshift. He just reaches a point where he wrecks everything, and it's fun to let him loose and watch him destroy, for that brief time when you can. He might join a little _too_ late to get maximum fun out of, but since we're talking late-joining projects, I think he counts. Ena does not. You have to juggle her laguz gauge the whole time, and on top of that, her growths are just bad. She's too hard to make reach her caps even with bonus experience, and even once she does, she has a lot of very serious weaknesses that make her feel underwhelming rather than good. Pelleas is another candidate from FE10, but his unimpressive growths, plus the Archsage speed cap, combined with just how godawful Dark magic is in FE10, makes him not feel very good to use on the whole. FE11: Shadow Dragon Est ticks me off. Her growths are dramatically worse than they were in FE1, which was a game with universal 20 stat caps, and where growths were often bad. FE11 Est is not an Est. She's just badly redesigned. FE15: I don't think there's any really good candidates here. Maybe Est herself, or maybe Atlas, but though they join later than other low-level units, their join time isn't particularly notable, nor is their potential to grow. Maybe Sonya? Rewarp and Entrap are fun payoffs for heavy investment, and require real effort. Not sure that counts, though. All in all, I'm with you on the idea that "Est" probably facilitates miscommunication about as much as useful communication, and I'm not sure how valuable the term actually is. Nevertheless, I think the thing I use the term to point to is important, and deserves enough consideration to have its own term.

[@RSimpkinuk57]

FE15 late-joining training projects: I offer you Delthea on Alm's team, Conrad on Celica's.

[@jemolk8945]

@@RSimpkinuk57 For some reason, Delthea slipped my mind while I was writing that comment. She's probably the closest thing SoV has to an Est. I don't know that I'd count her, for much the same reason I'm unsure about Ewan in Sacred Stones, but she could count, and is fun to use. I wouldn't count Conrad, though, any more than I'd count Zeke. He's just good enough at base to not really be someone I'd call a training project.

[@jameshonaker585]

I feel like "Est" has sort of morphed into a shorthand of sorts to refer to relative strength compared to the join time of the unit in question, a combat unit that starts out substantially weaker than the other units joining around the time they do and who needs particular effort to "catch up" to the rest of the army. Whether or not it means anything more than that feels like it's up to the person talking, but at a base line, if someone describes a character as an "Est archetype", I'm going to think that they both join very late and markedly underleveled (so to speak).

[@patricspooner3941]

This should be obvious but I’ll break it down for you, sometimes the Est is the friends you made along way.

[@Wistfulness89]

I see an Est as just a reverse Jagen.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

A late game young woman who won't get on. I can't figure out what the opposite of a horse is so clearly we're talking about Wendy

[@garthmarenghi9040]

This is similar to people arguing about genres (e.g.: Is Slipknot nu-metal?) or taxonomies (e.g.: Zelda 2/BOTW isn't a *real* Zelda game!). The purpose of the word is to be a shorthand way of describing similar things by giving them a common name that (necessarily) smooths out their differences into common traits. Saying "In Radiant Dawn, Sothe is your Jeigan" is faster than saying "Sothe is a unit that joins early and is higher level and power than the rest of your units at the time, but gains experience slowly and falls off later in the game, while serving the narrative role as a mentor/protector of the protagonist". If the implicit meaning of the word is well-understood by the audience, then it can be faster to explain Sothe by putting him in the audience's mental Jeigan box. Est fails in this purpose because the implicit meaning and common traits of the word is less well/universally defined than other categories. The fact that categories can break down highlights the value of being clear and straightforward with your language by explicitly stating the common traits, even if it results in more words being necessary. That way we might spend less time talking past each other.

[@wannabecinnabon]

feel like you're literally gaslighting us with exclusively comparing fe1 est's growths to other units who join underleveled with really high growths from that same game why not compare est's growths to ogma, or caeda, or abel, or hardin, or merric, or palla, or god forbid how many replacement units fe1 gives you with bleh growths est archetype never has to have growths that are so much better than everyone else's that they literally make the planet explode, they just have to be quite good by the game's standards. nino herself doesn't have growths that are THAT MUCH better than Lucius either, so i really just don't get how this growths argument lets you steer towards nino being the definition of the archetype instead of est herself

[@variksigurdsson1447]

To me, Est is about unit feel, not any specific quantities. It doesn't matter much to me.

[@armorbearer9702]

You bring some excellent points. Personally, I like the idea of a “Nino” archetype.

[@clairofmemories]

What is an Est? A miserable little pile of secrets!

[@AinaFuyuko]

It's simple est is a french word that either means east or is the conjugation of the french verb for To Be for the singular third person

[@KeitaroHirochi]

If you are pronouncing the 's' and the 't', then you mean 'east'. The third person conjugation of 'être' (to be), 'est', has both the 's' and 't' silent.

[@ussgordoncaptain]

I don't think in archetypes other than Jeigan and Gahtoh anymore Jeigan is a nice shorthand because "early joining prepromote that may or may not have low growths" is an important group of units (Jeigan, Arran, Sigurd, Oifey, Evyel/Dagdar, Marcus, Marcus, Seth, Titania, Sothe, Jeigan, Arran, Fredrick) that actually defines a lot of the strategy of the game. Gatoh (which oddly enough gatoh himself isn't really) is another useful term to describe "unit that carries you at the end of the game so the player can win" (Naga, Gazel??, Karel, Athos, Myrrh, Ena/Nasir+Giffca/Tibarn, Cain/Giffca/tibarn/Nailah, Flavia/Basilio)

[@coldeed]

WE SHOULD DEFINE IT NOW AS WOMEN IN BONDAGE YOU COULD THEORETICALLY GET A LOT OF USE OUT OF. And you have to scream it while making eye contact with whoever made the mistake of asking. Real talk "efficiency" players have made this confusing. Est before was just the out of pocket term for late joining units with typically high growths (old school games that was an average of 50+ save the defenses) that would need promotion. It was used to describe the overstated averages and stupid amount of rushed work to see the unit do well. People that are more used to the new games are used to units having 50% average stats now of course get confused. Marisa doesn't have good stats, the only fe 8 player calling her an Est fell for the speed meme and thinks her high speed is good when that character has some of the worst con in the game. Ewan I can kinda understand because of how he's a pain to train at the time he joins in terms of volume of growth, but its likely just ignorant players guessing that don't know the growth rates. It's always something that confuses players because awakening forward just made high growths pretty much the common standard. Typically its more about low base level, very late into the game, needs promotion. Old community talks described it as a "comeback unit". The premise being people intuiting the game design behind Est being she had very high growths and low level to function as a potential late game replacement that would have been intended to be overlooked most of the time if you didn't lose other fliers and trained them. This of course even back in the day lead to dumbies exaggerating how well it could "come back" and nino fans single handedly made it into a meme of "est is carrying my run". In reality, est is an expensive unit and consequently a backup plan with some drawbacks. A unit thats likely to get good, but joins unfortunately late and needs alot to work in a short period of time. With a unit like Syrene being on par a 10/1 Vanessa in the worse class, I think that illuminates why some people have drawn connections there, and I guess the Joshua brainlets think Marisa is the same thing for Joshua? My personal belief is 8 was made by a merc loving chad and it was in his contract that Gerik had to have 2 women interested in his pipe introduced in the same chapter, hence why Marisa exists. Honestly maybe it was an inside joke on the team with Joshua having beef with an "evil hero" and Gerik having an edgy Mrym want to give him the sloppiest of toppy. Feels like some of the ideas came from the people on the creative team joking around back and forth. As the OG archetype goes its technically in its simplest a suboptimal late game replacer. Est specifically was the idea of a high investment sink that needed to be caught up to par, but was capable of doing so with some finesse. The games have had different versions, so it's a bit complex compared to archetypes of early game units because its more role fixated than growth expectations. Seth is my favorite Est. What's yours?

[@Xiazinator]

Big fan of the Warcraft II music

[@seasaltsky]

7:35 if we include "they're a captive or have to be rescued in some way" as a requirement, then FE1, Book 1, and SD Est wouldn’t even qualify as a fucking Est anymore lol

[@dmas7749]

wait i get that re- aw...

[@FuriousHaunter]

I think people should not care so much about precise definition of terms like Est as it is already a vibes based idea and, all definitions are arbitrarily and inprecise when examined anyway, look at the word "cool", it is a descriptor yet lacks any real definition, however there is a general understanding when the term is used, and confusion can be cleared by asking for clarification, most people assume others understand them immediately that is just how brains function by default, another example, precisely define the term "chair" in a way that includes all chairs and excludes all non-chairs, you can not inevitably you will need to cave out exceptions for edge cases, that ultimately end with the need to go based off of vibes. further more looking at the most defined fe architypes I hope we agree exist, Jagens, they are strong relative to the point in the game they join but, what does this mean, are they overly dominant, do they fall off, what class are they, etc. thier traits are inconsistent, look at all of them they all play and function differently. One fun thing to point out is how in engage many of your units function like fe6 Marcus, they join better than the rest but fall of and are replaced by a better version of themselves or your trained units when they fall off. Strictly speaking Alfred and Louise meet this definition of a Jagen but they are not, why? The vibe doesn't fit, there is no way to disqualify them otherwise. Secondly Look at the Christmas cavs they aren't even cavs anymore, they don't always consistently have the same differences. Architypes evolve over time, I think it's clear that as far as mainline fe is concerned the est evolved into the trainie/villager units. I think the lack of consideration for the functional nature of the term is also apparent, many hacks intentionally design est as such the idea clearly exist and carries some useful ideas. In my opinion est can be any class even manakette or staff user, I don't see why not, the thinking that they can't is very restrictive, combining ideas is the heart of art, for example would you say framme and clanne aren't Christians cavs, despite how they obviously are intend to fill that role, just because they are not cavs.

[@thunderrunder7507]

We should get rid of all these archtype names expect for maybe Jagen and Christmas Duos. They are inconsistent and make discussions clunky and full of jargon.

[@lpfan4491]

I am not relinquishing the Sain-archetype. It is not even misleading because it is specifically a narrative thing, not a gameplay-thing.

[@Flametix]

I just like to say Est is best because it rhymes. I think that is why the name stuck.

[@EnigmaticMrL]

The "Est archetype" is so ill-defined and loose that I honestly think it should be retired. Compare it something like a Jagen: a unit that joins on the first chapter in an advanced class compared to the other units in the army. Often acts as a mentor to the main Lord. Simple and precise. But an Est? How late is late joining? By what standard is "good growths"? I've heard conflicting things if an Est is "low stats", "good stats for the level", or both. Either is too vague anyway.

[@MythrilZenith]

Exactly. While the *concepts* make sense, they're impossible to nail down without the individual context of the game, which makes for a problematic archetype.

[@ElusiveEllie]

Don't say I'm old just because I watched TotalBiscuit T_T I'm not *that* old...

[@revivalfromruins]

They're the bEst

[@fordexyzable1597]

Archetypes where a mistake - Miyazaki

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Also Miyazaki: Every game will gave a poison swamp, a barefoot woman, and a prince(ss)

[@lynp9996]

Do ests enjoy salty food in carthage?

[@Khrene]

As a great patron said Jeigan is an Est

[@just-mees]

Hill I will die on: Mauvier is an est. He joins late, can contribute well with investment, but might need mote investment than people might be able to give. Also he's part of a trio

[@_abaddon_2681]

Not trying to convince you otherwise, but I'd like to understand your viewpoint. All I agree with is he joins late. He needs no investment to function by virtue of joining with B rank in staves which gives access to all the repositional staves. You have the option to put him in other classes due to his great bases and high growths, but it's not needed to make him function as a unit right off the bat. There is no trio I'm aware of he's part of. He was once part of the Four Hounds which was, as the name implies, a quartet and otherwise only really has ties to Veyle.

[@just-mees]

@@_abaddon_2681 my ass completely forgot that green hair mage guy Im sorry

[@MorphBall1]

If early game trainees are Magikarp then Ests are basically Dratini. They trade the availability of the early game trainee for even higher potential when trained.

[@MythrilZenith]

@@MorphBall1 at the cost of slowing down your party significantly to let them keep up, just like catching a level 15 dratini that doesn't fully evolve until level 56 when the rest of your party is level 30 slows you down, but is still totally playable.

[@MorphBall1]

@@MythrilZenith Exactly.

[@shinon748]

Yo is that Warcraft music in the background? Specially Warcraft 2 when playing as the Horde? Well I guess it is still a strategy game haha

[@CrazyLemonMint]

Even Est isn't Est-esque

[@elijahlapret1612]

I would just say an est is a weak unprompted unit that joins very late. Nothing else. Good bases are subjective as are growths. Technically weak is subjective but general tests just simply have stats so low they can't tske on enemies when they join by themselves.

[@noukan42]

I feel people massively overcomplicate a simple thing. Est is the classic RPG trope of an unit that join at low level in lategame and if trained turn out better than the the alternatives. Think Dratini in pokemon. Things like "base relative to their level" or growths do not matter, what matter is that 20/20 est beat 20/20 non-est, how that is achieved is irrelevant. Edit: i find weird how people say that Jeigan is much better defined when Jeigan and Est are literally mirror of each other: Jeigan: join early, promoted when no one else is, weaker than the alternatives at level cap(fuck seth) Est: join late, unpromoted when no one else is, stronger than the alternatives at level cap.

[@seasaltsky]

but Est herself, in FE1 and FE3, wouldn't be stronger at cap compared to her sisters because all stats except HP are capped at 20??? looking at OifeyBot, in FE1, Est will have better Luck than Catria who just barely doesn't cap Luck on average and Palla only has 3 (her Luck growth is 10% lmao), but has slightly worse Def on average, only 17.8 vs 19.7 so not by much. but her HP is 39 vs 44.2 on Catria and 46.7 on Palla you may have noticed that i didn't mention the other stats that's because they're all capped at 20. on all 3 of them keep in mind that this is all rng and you could potentially have Est be way better if the other two just get shit levels and don't cap any stats or something but you can't say Est will, on average, surpass the alternatives at max level.

[@noukan42]

@@seasaltsky j don't think Kaga sit down and calculated average stats tho. The intent is clearly for Est to turn out better, and indeed her growths are less shaky. And in general, one should keep in mind that design intent is not always succesful. Exactly as Seth not falling of do not invalidate the intention behind jeigans, Catria and Palla being overtuned do not invalidate the intent behind Est.

[@thefinalskarm1754]

I understand, the clerics from FE3 Book 2 are all ests and you should try and 20/20 them.

[@jierdareisa4313]

I love ALL MythrilZenith videos!!!! ❤

[@vaughnrudy8084]

Ests are characters that are strong if you're good at the game

[@ghable23]

Tiki archetype isn't real. Est archetype is just unique utility without training. That fits Tiki's as you explained with Myrrh. Juno is an Est. Syrene could be an EsT. FE9 Rolf is an Est even if he joins early. Veyle is an Est. Elincia is an Est, more so due to being a flying Healer than triangle attack but an Est nonetheless. Growths and bases would be for Ninos and not even then should be look at. A Nino is an under leveled unit from a class you previously had. The games usually make them with good bases/growths to give a reason to use them. Nino is a Nino. Amelia is a Nino. FE9 Makalov is a Nino. A trainee just needs to be under leveled but not from a previous class. You"ll get Donnel before Gregor. Mozu is a Trainee. Cyril ,on the other hand, is a Nino. Ross is technically a trainee. And Ewan is just a mess. Like, he's a Nino for mage class or a Trainee for Shaman or an Est for Super trainee, but that last one is on clear files and not even good.

[@PK_Smokey]

Ewan is an Este btw

[@memetan_24]

An Est to me is a low level not promoted unit that joins quite aways in and is the last not promoted unit bases and growths have nothing to do with it Pellas and doesn't count also dragons don't count as they usually can't promote.

[@grauenritter9220]

its just Nino

[@eviltrollface647]

I still think Karel should be considered an Est.

[@DarkSoulsSauron]

who is accusing Marisa of being an Est?! she has worse bases than Joshua and, like, 30% strength growth

[@MythrilZenith]

Believe it or not I've heard her pitched as an "Est" a LOT, mostly by people whose only criteria is "joins late & under-leveled," and DEFINITELY contributes to the baggage of "Est = bad" that many people have.

[@letsmakeit110]

invest in est

[@summerwinter89]

anna is the best est. having an est carry you is the best feeling. because everyone else discards them.

[@MythrilZenith]

Now we're not even sticking to the archetype and just saying growth units with low bases are Ests. Anna is very fun to use. Not sure she should be called an "Est."

[@something1558]

Anna feels more like a trainne akin to the ones in fe8 or Donnel

[@boonsaplenty3924]

Who cares? Or rather, why care? The stakes are so low here I don't understand the level of investment. The series does not have enough entries or data points to merit the idea of a baseline "semblance of reality" or whatever you mean by that elsewhere in comments, so we are by necessity only left with vibes. There are enough differences between games that any discussion that tries to get too granular will run into the same issue you seem to be accusing the vibes-based advocates of: where do you draw the line? The Est archetype, like all the archetypes, is at once both a shibboleth and a mirror: it signifies that you have become invested enough in the fandom to adopt the language, but it also will tell you a lot about someone's gameplay style and how they assess units. People have different pattern-recognition biases and attempts at stifling those differences does, in my opinion, more harm than good for fan discussion. Someone else in the comments put forward an interesting personal definition of Ests as "the latest unpromoted unit in a game" which is an interesting take that I imagine not many people have noticed overlaps quite nicely with more traditional Est definitions, but you say "why even have an archetype then?" Because it's fun to discuss and regardless of if someone puts a name on it, they will have nonetheless noticed that pattern and categorized it in their head? This returns to my original point that I think fans who want more concrete definitions for archetypes are kind of missing the forest for the trees: archetypes, in almost any text or medium, are blunt instruments by design. The argument that broadening an archetype too much runs the risk of making it less effective seems to ignore the inverse: restrict an archetype too much and it loses its relevancy. If we are only allowing ourselves to call things by the most precise, literal language then we remove our ability to create community culture and iconography.