The Extremely Strong Characters that Rarely Win Tournaments

[@G-DizzleDon]

On stream when sajam asked "who is the enemy?" some chatters replied leffen which cracked me up, kinda sad it didn't make the final cut

[@Mr.Faust3]

He was right

[@cuecrunch]

leffen is an absolute piece of shit that just continues to get supported because the fgc sucks off top players harder than whores do paying customers

[@xone_mi]

1984

[@iceink]

buff happy chaos

[@MrBorealis]

I’ve seen the future. This video is about Mr. Darius 2XKO

[@evilded2]

Actually it's about ramus

[@trippersigs2248]

Qiyana needs buffs

[@Mr.Faust3]

Darius is all mids

[@JayMyke-j3w]

Shaco needs nerfs.

[@AceLeader101]

Darius is solid until you realize there's a parry button

[@Tsurael]

1:37 From a statistics standpoint, I'm strongly of the opinion that top 8/16/x appearances are a FAR better indicator of character strength then focusing on top 1s. Looking at only who comes out of grand finals will, by definition, be a much smaller sample size and therefor less representative due to increased effect of "noise" factors outside of the character itself, such as lucky or unlucky runs against counterpicks and variance based on player preference (the best players are often NOT playing the best character because they simply don't like them).

[@ckorp666]

yeah, usually the truly broken stuff is what cruises u thru pools until a top player HAS to put an end to it, like funny steven minecreft in that party game

[@libertarianvoter]

The problem with top 8/16/x is that the higher that number goes the harder it becomes to separate "character strength" from "character popularity". What people like to play and what they find cool is a variable that makes it impossible to use these sorts of statistics as an objective measurement of character strength. It's more useful as a gauge of competitor sentiment than anything else.

[@libertarianvoter]

@@ckorp666 You don't need a broken character to get through pools. A top player can get through pools of most tournaments with virtually any character (assuming the bracket was seeded intelligently). The vast majority of players that enter tournaments get bodied by the people that are consistent top 8 threats regardless of what character is being played by whom.

[@ckorp666]

@@libertarianvoter and lower lvl players can wipe better players out of pools with a busted char. im not talking about top players, we've said nothing that contradicts one another here

[@gab1iy]

@@ckorp666 yeah the guy just supported your argument

[@glacierwolf2155]

The summary is: These characters are _very strong,_ but have significant flaws that pros can exploit more than well-rounded characters.

[@jadendiamondknight5200]

A video, with LordKnight or someone else from the community, discussing "strong" characters that have never won a tournament/consistently top events would be insightful and put butts on seats 👀

[@eebbaa5560]

this is his bag anyway

[@mattb6616]

Lol. Yeah pretty much. But I wouldn't be proud of being the guy who constantly complains that characters who don't win anything are too strong. ​@@eebbaa5560

[@futurecoplgf]

Surely the people that play the strong characters in tournaments are just doing so to showcase how powerful they are, before they willingly forfeit, lest they besmirch their honor. Afterwards they form the Arch of Honours and go back to playing Ryu. Yes, that explains the discrepancy.

[@mattb6616]

This is how strive players really believe May players act

[@maxcar7298]

Necessary discrepancy

[@slippery_air]

@@maxcar7298beat me to it

[@EvilCoffeeInc]

So basically Bison is your school janitor washing the pool and I'm in the pool going 0-2

[@mattsandvig7868]

At least ASW was quick to confirm that Ram swords staying on hit was actually a bug that they're going to patch out this month.

[@OreoTheWolf]

For the first 4 years of UMvC3, people legit argued that Zero wasn't good because he hadn't won a major.

[@EarthLordCJ]

Was that before or after his corner loops were discovered?

[@OreoTheWolf]

@@EarthLordCJ After

[@13thKingMu]

Did zmc exist during that time?

[@EarthLordCJ]

@ That’s pretty hilarious then.

[@OreoTheWolf]

@@13thKingMu Yes

[@Mage_Nichlas_]

*"You may notice,* there's a couple of clowns sitting up there juggling the top 2 spots." is a phrase I needed in my life.

[@Lanzetsu]

Something like this happen in other games as well, for instance in StarCraft2 most of the TOP100 are Protoss, but at the highest pro gaming level they can rarely win a Tournament...

[@thehermitwizard]

Suddenly, an echo from the past.... "FUCKING LASER BEAMS"

[@ggpt9641]

This reply section MUST construct additional pylons.

[@TidalGrave]

My life for aiur

[@HellecticMojo]

Because keep on refusing to address the damn ghost and buff the colossi.

[@nerio1227]

I think familliarity with the character you main is the most importan in the end. Squeezing 99% of characters potential will porbably net you more resaults than using busted one at 80%. Notice that in the chart alot of characters with most wins are more older ones, hence players just have a shit ton of experience with them.

[@Saskaruto16]

Yeah especially with how much more balanced modern games are it's more valuable to be better at a character than it is to play a better matchup because very few are so lopsided that it's worth it to swap to a character you aren't as good on.

[@Malao558]

Interesting how this conversation sort of maps to best of one vs best of three in card games. Some strategies are very powerful in best of one (on ranked ladder) but they crumble in best of three (tournament) because of various factors depending on the game. Gimmicks and strategies that rely on knowledge checks thrive in bo1 for example, but are easily countered in bo3. In fighting games’ case, that factor seems to be primarily their consistency, or maybe their matchup spread. I’m more of a card game guy than a fighting game guy, so come to whatever conclusion makes you happy.

[@eebbaa5560]

best of one is a fraudulent format it’s just aggro decks

[@jukmifggugghposer]

yeah i think that's a good point, like how in MTG they had to ban Nexus of Fate specifically in BO1 online - those decks weren't incredibly strong, but they could catch a LOT of decks off guard in the BO1

[@cheeseitup1971]

The surrounding incentives are pretty wacky too. In a tournament, you usually have to spike a high match winrate to get any prizing. Online, you can play as many games as you have time for, so knowing you've basically lost quickly becomes a valuable trait for a deck. Ending every game on turn 2 effectively multiplies your edge, not to mention the rate you complete dailies :P

[@CoolLegBoy]

This is the reason Yugioh Master Duel will forever be doomed to be a Mickey Mouse format

[@eebbaa5560]

simple answer: it’s hard to win against actually good players with a villain character that everyone bands together to beat

[@mattb6616]

Simpler answer: the characters probably aren't actually that strong.

[@Megaman231122]

​@@mattb6616Ram and Slayer are absolutely strong. They get solved

[@AB54099]

@@mattb6616 simple answer: the player piloting said character isn't actually that skilled compared to their competition. A crutch can only take you so far. Familiarity with how well each player knows each other is also a factor

[@bluejay7058]

@@AB54099 I'd say it's less that and more-so that these "enemy" characters are purposefully designed to be linear and intractable exactly because their win con/strengths are so accessible and learnable. You spend very little time learning your tools in exchange for having to over-study situations other characters solve because your tools don't scale that way. Last patch, Ram corners you and forces bad RPS situations constantly: ones you can absolutely guess correctly/expensively and reverse or beat the situation, and so she suffers from players who excel at gambling on defense since that's...her whole game plan. If you can fight corner Ram, Ram is just mids.

[@Mr.Faust3]

Slayer has won 2 majors since his release

[@limb-o7180]

ermm actually Verix won with Slayer in COTO 2024 ☝🤓(I'm a verix fanboy)

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

One of the core problems is using statistics of the wins/ uses as and a metric for a character’s strength is that it completely belies the fact that character popularity and preference play a role People play characters who they find are cool, and good, if the character is both of those things (akuma, ken, etc) people, in turn, WILL gravitate to that character

[@Fishman465]

I feel it's a result of their reputations causing players to be on their EX game and not mess around, aided by all the counter tech documented/made. Inversely other characters can do surprisingly well due to opponnents taking them lightly or lack of commonly available counter tech Then we have the Dans who people are conditioned to consider utter jokes, even if they're not (like Dan in SFIV and SFV)

[@dopey473]

1:00 ah yes my favorite country lebanon!!

[@magicalgirl1296]

0:30 I love Ramlethal, she's my favorite. Sword has gotta get fixed though lol. At least ArcSys said they know about it.

[@BigQ52]

Another thing worth mentioning (at least in modern games) is consistency between versions. Happy Chaos, for example, was basically the best character in the game on release and has floated in high-top tier ever since. So many high level players have a lot of experience with him.

[@pnx073]

I think popular characters dont usually win big because they ARE popular and everyone else in the tourney knows their matchup at that point.

[@YunisRajab]

Yep this is why Dhalsim has the best win rate even though he's pretty week

[@Zyckro]

Glad the Ram thing is a bug. I love playing her so it's good that's getting fixed

[@Anticssc]

It’s still an embarrassment that it made it into the patch. Did they have no playtesters at all? 😭😭😭

[@gatocochino5594]

This might be shocking to hear, but did you know that playtesting every interaction for 28 characters is actually quite resource intensive. Some bugs will slip through QA.

[@insertcleverjoke8383]

​@@gatocochino5594 It's been a very buggy patch compared to previous ones, but the number of people who keep saying "did they even have playtesters" is really sapping my faith in the collective intelligence of the fgc. Like guys, trust me, if they didn't have playtesters you would probably notice

[@joaquinbitancor1269]

@@gatocochino5594 i mean, im not gonna shit on them for the ky infinite and goldlewis bug because they're very specific, but i still dont get how ram's slipped, her swords recived a big rework this patch and its not a new bug (it already existed before) nor a super especific interaction. You would think it would have been found out

[@EpsilonKnight2]

I really love what they did with her combo options this patch. She doesn't feel like she has weird redundant incomplete moves anymore. 2 different sword tosses for different applications, dauro actually launching, the flip slam being an overhead when its felt like it should have been that since day 1, rekkas being more of a pressure tool and being able to combo into her huge slice move for fat wall splats all feel SO much better and consistent. Obviously the sword toss bug is a pain but thankfully the swords recharging keeps that from being spammable.

[@screwtokaiba]

Theres 2 story tied to this i remember During TI5 of dota2, Leshrac is blatantly broken. His kit arguably have always been crazy and he finally get "his item"(in short in old dota the issue some hero faces was less they suck and more they dont have the item to scale with) and iirc the third skill was extremely overtuned - despite the massive power creep of the overall game Leshrac Third in TI5 is still to this day the one with the best damage scaling per level. But notoriously CDEC mid does not play Leshrac despite the hero being a top 0 immediate ban or pick. This leads the captain of EG to be able to pass Leshrac either forcing CDEC to pick(and suck with it) or let EG get them which is essentially an auto win. Leshrac had 18 played game total in the tournament and while Leshrac was played in 3 games of 4 of the grand final, it lose 2 and didnt make it to the final game win During Yugioh Power of the Elements era people kinda rightfully judged Spright and Tearlament was the 2 standout new archetype from the set. In fact the later is now largely considered the best Yugioh deck of all time. Despite both of the deck being extremely dominant they won zero major tournament in the Power of the Elements cycle(either that or like one). That era of Yugioh actually have some of the funniest major tournament winner(including a historic Mystic Mine burn YCS win) Funny enough when both deck got hit later, Spright particularly get a major hit on the frog engine, at the time it was considered their best engine, and some people expected the deck to die off(and expecting a tier 0 Tear format even before the support that break them) until the next YCS happened and Joshua Schmidt won with Spright That YCS notably are both the first notable Major win between the two decks and the first time Spright was clearly ahead of Tearlaments in representation, being around 50%+ of top 64, then 5/8 of top 8 and then every deck in top 4 onwards is a variant of Spright. Theres around 8-10 Tearlaments in top 64

[@Josukegaming]

Sheik is this exact archetype in Melee, she is super simple, incredibly strong, yet has some flaws and is almost too simple that she rarely ever wins majors especially as a solo main character.

[@Lewt_2B]

Kenshi in Mortal Kombat 1. People have been putting him in Top 1-5 since launch and he almost never wins tournaments and gets into top 8s few and far between.

[@makhina8839]

For those top 8 Cammy wins, that’s Punk and Du. Haven’t seen anyone else repping Cammy in top spots

[@beam5655]

For the WW stats, she's super popular and successful in a lot of regions. Players like Kilzyou, Xiaohai, Ferraras, etc doing very well

[@ThatRedHusky]

Happy Chaos spends full bar and burst to defend against Ram and still gets splatted? I don't see the issue here.

[@1nnovator]

Or maybe the strongest players don't pick these characters? You think Mena couldn't win a big tournament with Dictator if that was his main? The characters that the top players choose to pilot is a factor as well.

[@curry94400]

That is one factor, but there are several others. Like if a character is really strong and player by tons of people, then everyone have much more experience playing them, which in a top level match between two equally skilled player give a slight edge to the one playing the good but difficult specialist characters that his opponent isn't used to fight.

[@2centstudios]

When I hear "The Enemy" I can only think of Adult Gohan from watching LordKnight. He literally would not call him anything else and it's always hilarious when someone hates your character and you're just like "yeah man, they're pretty good lol".

[@finallyanime]

hc didnt get shot....needs to be tho with how he reloads & has normals covered.

[@magnoUo]

I literally just played against Slayer, he did 70% of my health man, and it wasn't a counter hit ;-;

[@PattheMan876-qf8ro]

In SFIV, Cammy was largely seen as the best character in the game in the 2012 era, yet the only notable win she has was when a Swedish player upset Infiltration.

[@Boyzby]

Unless something has happened since I stopped watched Melee in the last few years, I'm pretty sure Fox has always been considered #1 and yet hasn't won many tournaments compared to other characters.

[@EpsilonKnight2]

The Melee scene I think has been more experimental since a lot of the gods have retired or been entering less.

[@mattb6616]

Why do people lie about stuff like this lol Melee hasnt been played seriously by a large audience for a long time. When it was? Fox was unquestionably top tier and won everything.

[@DoctorSoctopus]

@@mattb6616Melee’s scene is doing fine and the state of play has never been more advanced/high level, so you’re just being weird. Fox continues to be a threat and win tourneys at all levels of play. OP should have typed Falco instead of Fox, who actually fits this perfectly

[@carlschrappen9712]

​@@mattb6616OK, when exactly was Fox winning everything?

[@BasicallyGoblin]

1:05 YEAH, LET'S GO WALTER, CORPUS FGC OUT HERE WHEELIN AND DEALIN BABY, FUCK THIS STRIVE PATCH, BUT THAT'S MY BOY RIGHT THERE

[@ownagemunky]

LMAO I just realized they give Cheryo the NC flag for TNS results, that's hilarious

[@beam5655]

Not sure if I buy this, to me it seems like you are trying to rationalize a small sample. Like I don't think Bison is somehow great at getting top 8s but bad at winning tournaments, its just the way things played out.

[@fullarmourtracksuit4023]

I’ve stuck with Luke since launch and online it’s starting to feel like a lot of players aren’t sure how to deal with him. I guess it makes sense since I almost never come across another Luke player myself.

[@GreetingsMortal]

Makoto Nanaya was a good example of this back in BBCS Then she died for her sins anyway…

[@evilded2]

God I hate cammy

[@eebbaa5560]

same i don’t care how hot she is

[@Blackacecosplay]

I read the title and thought this was LS video about champions not being picked in Pro Play for League of legends

[@yuurou7927]

Easy, popular, powerful, usually plays the same online. The worst case of this is like Samsho 4 rasetsu tamtam. He can bully over half the cast with only 5A and J.C

[@DOSFrost]

How many majors has Akuma won in Tekken 7's mid/late lifespan?

[@DonteWilsonChrisDorner]

Let's talk about how JP was never the best character in the game, never won a major tournament, rarely won some minors, but people still complained that he was too strong, AND THEY NERFED HIM. Yes, I will always be mad.

[@vanadlehyde3600]

dev's favorite failson/faildaughter

[@brucecole1940]

Melee Sheik fits here

[@ledgy69]

One thing that gets me so frustrated about top tier arguments based off tournaments is that it's actually an incredibly volatile and unreliable environment to base this off due to how much stimulus and emotion takes place. This is excluding blatant outliers, sm4sh Bayonetta, Akuma early t7 It's much more reliable to take where people are relaxed, play more consistently, and look at long term data.

[@felisk4304]

people talk about evil/enemy characters, but honestly I'd much rather fight an Akuma around my level then a random Dhalsim where he just teleports around and I cry. It's obviously not the same issues at the top level, but skill based matchmaking makes this a non-issue for 99.99% of players

[@WraxTV]

"Archetype that exists in every game" We including MK1 in that?

[@firehammock3021]

Bison needs a serious re-work

[@franciscogutierrezrivera6794]

Slayer doesnt have a reversal super and to approach to his opponent he has to take some risks. There are more consistent characters like ram, happy chaos or goldlewis

[@JayMyke-j3w]

Basically GGST M. Bison

[@shishioh]

This used to be Zero in Marvel 3...until Flocker

[@finalflash98]

This title is gonna apply to Jamie someday . I will either Cope or Die Trying.

[@NamelessThun]

Alternative take: HC is and always was fundamentally broken and will always be good unless they rework his ability to fully convert every hit, no matter what else they change

[@ckorp666]

@@NamelessThun HC could be so much less lame in a game with airtechs

[@jerry3115]

pythra in smash

[@ZenTea]

Leave Ram alone JFC

[@mattb6616]

May not in the thumbnail because no one but Lord Knight still even thinks she's strong 😂

[@JS-zz9lg]

As an MVC2 Iron Man player, Im innocent

[@MikeyDLuffy]

Ram was the most overrated character of all time imo. She won almost nothing, the best rep for her (Zando) got better results literally instantly after swapping to a "worse" character. Her win rates at every elo were terrible, like actually bottom of the barrel. Obviously those dont mean everything but there was quite literally 0 metric of her being strong.Yet she was the best character ever cause sword in the corner was annoying!

[@ilikestamps2978]

All my homies hate these characters even though they never win 💀

[@chimpmasterflex]

I remember in sf4, when Yun, and elena won every single tournament. Yun with his healing Ultra 1, and Elena Yoohoo'ing over everyone. They were so broken, and everywhere. Every top 8 16 Yuns, and 16 Elenas. They really ruined that game. And then you remember it was hardly the case at all.

[@valeoncat13]

The human mind is our worst enemy sometimes, lol.

[@chimpmasterflex]

@@valeoncat13 Ye, just being really sarcastic, cause the top half is how a lot of people felt like it was lol. It really wasn't so bad.

[@Eaode]

Clairen

[@andersonoliveiramagalhaes7944]

Slayer should be deleted

[@henry_a_c_l4816]

Meanwhile dragunov in tekken is the rare exception of being 90% of the bracket alongside winning the whole thing

[@mattb6616]

He's not that much of an exception. Leo and Sol are 90 percent of strive brackets and win 70 percent of the tournaments. Ken and Ed are 90 percent of sf6 brackets and win 70 percent of the tournaments. It's just that strive players see Leo and Sol dominate for 4 straight years and then go "damn May is toxic to the game she's so top tier"

[@beam5655]

​@@mattb6616"Ken and Ed are 90 percent of the brackets and win 70 of the tournaments" This is a giant load of bullshit lmao. Did you see Tokido vs Leshar and just assume every tournament looks like that?

[@kerbonaut2059]

​@@mattb6616Leo is not 90% Of brackets lol, there's like 5 leo players total after Tempest got himself kicked out.

[@mattb6616]

@beam5655 I watch tns and can opener and other tournaments as well. Lot of fuckin kens and eds.

[@kerbonaut2059]

Nobody plays Ram no matter how many busted tools they give her. Ram players all suck.

[@eebbaa5560]

it’s because she’s the most boring rps character in a game where half the cast is boring rps characters. but yeah they all suck i can’t argue with that

[@valeoncat13]

@@eebbaa5560 This is basically my theory as to why they reworked her in the last patch. And I think she's a way more interesting character now for it.

[@dontknow452]

​@@valeoncat13they're slowly getting her back to her xrd version.almost as if they shouldn't have changed her in the first place.

[@kerbonaut2059]

​@@valeoncat13mark my words Ram players will be handed the most busted char on a plate and still won't win shit.

[@drmogul2596]

nice to see the worst shoto getting representation l.

[@JELIFISH19]

I would argue that it's a player thing. Punk playing Cammy greatly increases her chances of winning a tournament. It's not that the character has a good chance of winning tournaments. It's that certain players have better chances of winning tournaments regardless of who they pick.

[@reviewcomplete3701]

Good players like Punk play good characters, ones that have a good chance of winning tournaments. So no.

[@JELIFISH19]

@@reviewcomplete3701 Punk plays who he wants to play. Karin wouldn't be a top tier contender without Punk. MenaRD is the only reason Blanka won tournaments.

[@soullessbirth465]

Elena only had one year out before sfv, if she had come out at launch it would be a different story. Both next level and wnf at the time had her winning every week before sfv. Also el fuerte would be number one in my book after pepeday s tech was getting slowly figured out by pros. Albeit hard to do but in time he would need nerfs and lots. 2 hit armor moves and an infinite. The only reason he using number one is because he’s scrub friendly character and scrubs stay stagnant. In the right hands el fuerte is the best character in sf4.

[@Gleapgoogleplusisgone]

Well I care is they nuke the living hell out of bison. He's the worst thing to happen to to sf6 to date. I just won't even rematch him win or lose anymore.

[@ralphwarom2514]

If a character isnt winning tournaments, then they are objectively not strong. They look strong, but they aren't really strong.

[@BudewFan_]

Not necessarily, it’s possible a character is really strong at lower levels but has a low skill cap or some predictable tool that is integral to their game plan that new players can’t get over Like elphelt is completely unstoppable at a low level because nobody knows how to 6p the gaps in her flips but she’s not super oppressive once you learn how to hit forward and punch simultaneously

[@kerbonaut2059]

RAM PLAYERS WILL NOT WIN SHIT EVEN WITH THEIR BUSTED ASS CHARACTER NO MATTER WHAT SEASON THEY ALL FUCKING SUCK

[@valeoncat13]

That would be make sense if tournaments were the only way these games were played. But that's never been the case. Playing ranked in brief bo3s, a ft10 and an entire bracket are completely change the context for player/character dynamics. Not to mention things like regional variance, where character usage can fluctuate barring some players from MU experience. There are way to many variables to use tournament results as the lone test. And as Sajam has already pointed out, many of these characters DO place well in tournaments. They just aren't taking first. And this could be for a whole number of reasons, some of them not even game related.

[@mattb6616]

Facts.

[@Hawko1313]

Objectively this means there’s only one strong character per tournament. Because only one character can win.