The Fake Welsh Bard Runes of Iolo Morgannwg, Druid and Forger!

[@abysswarlock]

The way these modern practices often get misconstrued as ancient reminds me of how Wicca is often described as "ancient paganism" despite being created in the 1900's

[@Hannah_Becton]

I thought about that while watching the video, too. Thankfully, I've seen an uptick in modern paganism movements where practitioners openly admit that what they do is modern or, if attempting to follow a religious path inspired by the beliefs of an ancient culture, freely admit that their beliefs are a reconstruction, there's no way they can be completely accurate, and try to keep to *actual* scholarship on them where possible.

[@beepboop204]

just say "Jackson Crawford" three times and see all the angry modern practitioners

[@Downhomeherbwife]

Aleister Crowley and the Golden Dawn invented much of it, not just Gardner.

[@rhiannonthegrey17]

Omg, this. I also think about it every time as well.

[@kimkohrt377]

I thought the same thing. Especially about Wicca.

[@pumpskin]

spilling 200 year old tea over here, I'm absolutely invested in the controversy now

[@jonthomas1111]

Hero of art, villian of history.

[@jvilkka]

Well put

[@SomasAcademy]

The mixed legacy reminds me of an important figure in my area of study, Jacob Egharevba. He was the first historian of the Kingdom of Benin, and played a very important role in recording Bini oral traditions and establishing the study of Benin... but he also freely editorialized and inserted things he believed without clearly distinguishing where he was getting the different details. His importance to Bini historiography has become a double-edged sword, because a lot of the Oral Historians started checking his work to "refresh their memories", meaning that now we can't know how much of these narratives actually date back to before Egharevba.

[@hiwakoo]

This is just like the work of the brothers Grimm for german. They recorded the oral history, but they also edited what they wrote down and their sources were not as clear aus we could wish. Still an importent and beloved achivment.

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

​@@hiwakoo I wonder if we have the same problem in Finland, with our "ur-myth" Kalevala, which also was collected by one man, Elias Lönnrot.

[@RobertKaucher]

When I was in my late teens (18/19) I found a Wiccan group that claimed to be Welsh traditionalist. It was full of Iolo's works. The worst part though is that it was also full of rituals written partly in bad (grammatically, I mean) Cymraeg Byw. So there I am at 19 in the early 90s doing all this research and learning Welsh and I find out who Iolo Morganwg is and what he did and how the grammatical forms of Cymraeg Byw were created in the 70s... And then we find the sources for Wiccan rituals in books that the person who supposedly brought the religion to the US was known to own. And the group just falls apart. It lead me to understand history, archaeology, and historical linguistics as sciences all of which changed me for the better as a person. But at the time, oof! Damn it hurt. I share your feeling about Iolo.

[@staceypenn1095]

I am of Welsh background. Both of my grandparents, my nana is 100% Welsh and my grandad is 50% Welsh and 50% Scottish, were native Gaelic (grandad) and Welsh (nana) speakers as were my mother and my aunt. After WW2 my grandad helped to remove the sod and dirt that had been placed on the Uffington White Horse and continued to help maintain this chalk figure for the rest of his life. He knew about it because it is mentioned in the Red Book of Hergest. It was because of their interest in Welsh and Scottish history, they thought that Iolo Morgannwg was pretty evil. I have a degree in Forensic Anthropology. I am a trained field Archeologist. I understand why my mum and her parents despised this guy. You have people who have spent so much time studying made-up runes, bardic tradition, and druidic nonsense; that the real Welsh bardic history, language, and traditions are being pushed aside and forgotten. The reality of what it is to be Welsh is largely obliterated by all this fantasy playacting. The troubling part is people are being told that their fantasy is real and people spend their lives studying and reenacting this stuff. It's almost as if someone were to insist that Ren Fairs are real and for people to go to them instead of going to historic sites. They ignore important Welsh historic sites to dress up like Druids in London. My family always thought these people were delusional. So I know that he has done some very important work as a writer, but unfortunately, it has caused people to lose sight of reality.

[@I_hate_roads]

Interesting point about if these guys could have actually helped preserve more real history about the druids if they had tried. I'm not trying to say there's nothing to work with but maybe he just couldn't find enough material to do it for real and then filled in the gaps.

[@KevDaly]

The worst thing IMO is when the fabrications corrupt whatever traditions are genuinely retained from earlier times (much like when Native American traditions are rewritten to be full of New Age nonsense)

[@skellagyook]

That is pretty terrible. There are some Welsh sources that do retain elements of actual pre-Christian mythology (about gods and cosmology - sometimes thinly veiled). Medieval bardic material like the Mabinogi for example. They were not written down by druids but by bards (who historically had been somewhat associated with driuds and may have shared some of the same lore). The institution of court bards did survive christianization. So that's something.

[@InvertedGoblin]

I think that you can appreciate all the good things that he did while still pointing out his flaws. We as humans often fall into the thinking that someone is either a complete hero or the incarnation of evil. It would be a lot healthier if we could accept that people can do good things AND bad things. We should appreciate the good while pointing out the bad (and saying why it was bad). So short answer: he is both

[@beepboop204]

tis also the whole idea of "divine forgery"

[@lucie4185]

Yep in his time there was a lot of "educated" guessing and pontificating going on and they probably did not understand the ramifications of making up history in the same way that we do post worldwar II. In much the same way they doctored paintings and later photographs because they wanted to look thinner and better they didn't care what future people would see or believe.

[@doobat708]

Absolutely this, 100%. Things are often not either one thing or another, most things are a bit of a mixed bag.

[@solvorrustad3854]

He's both. He's neither. He's human.

[@Poohze01]

When I was studying Middle Welsh Language and Literature over 40 years ago at Sydney University, Iolo Morgannwg was much discussed as a sort of cautionary tale, warning about over-romanticizing your subject. I don't know how well the lesson stuck, because I've always been rather fond of him. I think your characterization of him as a Trickster deity is on the button!

[@numb3r5ev3n]

This is weirdly synchronistic because as a practicing Druid on Beltaine a few days ago, I was like "I don't know how to feel about Iolo Morganwg." In front of me, I had two books on Druidic ritual: Celtic Magic by Kristoffer Hughes who is pro-Iolo Morganwg, and The Sacred Cauldron by Tadhg MacCrossan, who is part of a movement which is trying to adhere to historical fact as much as possible and seems to be of the same opinion as Sir John Morris-Jones regarding Iolo Morganwg. His confabulations remain a big part of Neo-Druid culture to this day. Most of the modern Druidic leaders and writers seem to have gone "all in" on Iolo Morganwg and the Barddas, including ones I respect. I can respect the impact his writings and inspiration had on Welsh culture, but I really feel uncomfortable with the idea that he made a bunch of stuff up and passed it off as authentic.

[@angryhistoryguy5657]

This is exactly how I feel about Washington Irving. He was maybe a decade or two later than this guy, most famous for writing The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and collecting local folklore in the lower Hudson Valley region, just north of NYC. I grew up in the area and went to daycamp at his house (now a historic site). One of his lesser-known works is a completely fictional biography of Christopher Columbus that depicts him as a forward-thinking humanist who discovered America while bravely and heroically showing up the mean old Catholic Church by proving that the earth was round. The best explanation I can give is that Washington Irving couldn't read Spanish so he figured nobody else would, and the young nation needed to create a mythology separate from that of England.

[@helenahsson1697]

The more I learn about history, the more I'm thankful to my old middleschool teacher that told us time and time again to always be critical about what we read, even in the schoolbooks. Because there will always be new facts coming to light and you never know what the person writing the book might misunderstand or even make up. One of his examples was the Irish potato famine and how no farmers ever were stupid enough to only grew one crop, and a lot of Ireland is grazing land not fields so there should've been meat but the English took it. Still, the schoolbook said all they grew was potatoes. (This is a rural Swe school so most of us had connection to farming and understood what he was talking about). I think I have to go visit him and thank him next time I'm at home.

[@kellyburds2991]

I think we hold him in high esteem, but we change his name either to Eddie from the block or YOLO Morgannwg, to properly roast him for his shenanigans.

[@euansmith3699]

"Yolo" 😄😄😄 There's the name of my next fun-loving Halfling character in D&D.

[@kalka1l]

Iolo in history. YOLO in legend.

[@cadileigh9948]

as a genuine Bardd he is entitled to his barddic name and you confuse his role as a Poet with that of an inventor of a Druidic tradition. That's bad manners

[@MsSteelphoenix]

Yeah, I kept hearing 'YOLO' too...

[@kahn04]

Looking at that horn all I can think of is “that looks suspiciously like the Victorian dinner horn in the museum I work for”

[@cork..]

Some heavy Joseph Smith Vibes™ are afoot, except the mixed feelings. Also, I reread Wyrd Sisters yesterday and apparently I say things like "afoot" now.

[@InvertedGoblin]

It's difficult to not channel Terry Pratchett after reading some

[@cork..]

@@InvertedGoblin I think in feegle for weeks after reading Tiffany books

[@nataliestanchevski4628]

I've never heard of Iolo "Citations Invented" Morgannwg, but he sounds like an incredibly imaginative fellow. I just made up that nickname, it's not real, please don't come for me Jimmy. I continually find it fascinating that so many people need a spiritual/religious framework in their lives. And that while it takes so many different forms around the world, there are often commonalities. We are a weird, wacky, inventive species.

[@rebeccaholcombe9043]

It doesn't suprise me at all. A lot of people seem to need to make sense and meaning in life. We also have a portion of our brain that seems to regulate 'spiritualexperiences. When artificially stimulated people report...a spiritual experience. Even people who live secular largely agnostic lives, often attach a great deal of meaning and morality to 'healthy eating and exercise practice.

[@amylouise3798]

A fascinating video. My PhD thesis touches on Iolo’s work (and other instances of eighteenth century bardic forgeries such as Chatterton and Macpherson) and I always think it’s so interesting to consider why these writers created imagined literary pasts, as well as to consider the impact that had upon public perception of their respective literary and cultural heritages.

[@roxiepoe9586]

I used to live and teach in a small community that had a tradition that in the weeks after exams senior students produced scrapbooks of their personal histories. One of my students was a young woman who had had a recent, contentious, messy breakup with the boyfriend with whom she had been going 'steady' since 3rd grade. She had a lifetime of photos of them together. He was interwoven with every aspect of her history. She cut his face out of every one of those photos and replaced his head with that of a popular actor of the day. I gave her full marks and a 6 pack of Coke!

[@jessicahart1159]

One of my favorite things about this channel is how the vibes. Like it feels like you're listening to your friend that was invited to do an archeology lecture at the nice university.

[@nocomment2468]

Isn’t there a despair in realizing that some things are lost forever, never to be recovered? Perhaps it reminds us of our own mortality… Maybe that’s why people were so quick to grab onto this fabricated history- because it’s more fulfilling to have a wrong answer than to accept that you’ll never have an answer. Anyway, that’s what I got from this interesting video. As always, thanks for sharing your research (and it’s moral ambiguity) in such an engaging manner!

[@jacobparry177]

Iolo was also a massive abolitionist and his Welsh and English poetry on the matter is just absolutely fantastic. The guy also refused to sell slave-cultivated sugar in his shop in protest. Guy was a big, woke nerd and he deserves love

[@msampersand7399]

I am fascinated by everything Celtic - and have been since I was twelve, when in history class we heard all sorts of nonsense about the Celts in one hour and then spent a bunch of hours learning lots about the Romans. Thanks to modern archaeology, we know a lot more about the Celts now than we did when I was in school 30 years ago, but it's still frustrating to study an oral culture when its oral tradition has been thoroughly wiped out by a conquering empire. It's funny how in the 18th century there was a genuine trend of inventing ancient texts and passing them off as genuine - Macpherson's Ossian had international appeal and influenced people like Goethe. The thing is - it's so tempting. What person with an interest in the Celts does not wish ardently that a text would show up with Really Ancient Knowledge in it, or Really Ancient Poetry transcribed by a lonely monk who'd run into a Keeper of Ancient Traditions - you know, the Last of his Kind, who gives up his knowledge before it disappears? 😉 Alas, there is no such thing. There were no Wise Women who guarded Celtic religion and secretly carried it on into modern times (...as a teen, I was so disappointed when I found out that Wicca and co are modern inventions). So many stories, poems and songs are just lost forever. It's so sad. I'm really not sure that we *should* label someone like Iolo Morgannwg as 'good' or 'bad'. I'm happy to like him and his work, fake or no. It's important to know what's real and what's not, to be sure, but - I guess I sympathise with him 😅.

[@felixc543]

a lot of nuance here, i appreciate you just flat up admitting you can't quite say where you fall, it's complicated feels to me like a mix of wanting to impress his peers and also legitimately wanting there to be more of what he imagined...

[@Rataunderground]

As a druid, I think the story of how druidism got its lore is lore in itself, and an important part. I think it is a prerequisite of our religion/philosophy to know its history, and this part reminds us that artistic inspiration and factual facts are not the same, and that although both have their value, both lose it if confused. No current Druid says that the Awen symbol that Iolo invented is ancient, but we all appreciate it for what it represents.

[@MartinDoyle]

I too am a Druid (at the start of my bardic journey), I am concerned that OBOD still romanticises Iolo, and whilst acknowledging some of the 'made up bits' isn't quite as forthright as in this video, which causes me some concern . I shall continue with my studies, but with a more critical mind.

[@PhilipCarrGomm]

I don't think OBOD intentionally romanticises Iolo, Martin. But we'll seek to address this if we do! An excellent video this!

[@elmanoroboto]

​@PhilipCarrGomm thank you for this comment. As a former Mormon and new Druid, I was starting to feel some distress.

[@Hannah_Becton]

I don't think I'd cast him as a hero or a villain but a "problematic fave," if you will. Or just simply human.

[@banjowarrior365]

Great video as ever! I'll always have a soft spot for Iolo Morgannwg for his work collecting an preserving Welsh folk music and song. As a folk musician, I've always felt Welsh music is underappreciated in the world of British folk music, with Scottish and English music being much more prevalent in the scene. The more Welsh folk music out there the better in my opinion and we wouldn't have a lot of the repertoire without Iolo!

[@vada7259]

Thanks for the history lesson, & the reminder to keep one's skepticism well intact!

[@ariadneschulz8822]

Gotta say, not that I would make stuff up, but the threat of farting on one's pillowcase is a compelling one.

[@erinrabideau3691]

I think it’s ok to feel both ways about him. Rarely is any one person all hero or all problematic ❤

[@robinmcgann3777]

I come here for the history, the reenactment stuff....and I stay just to hear Welsh spoken. So beautiful.

[@anieth]

Ah, Jimmy, you're touching on my work now. I've spent 40 years reconstructing a better version of Celtic paganism. You find this in many renditions of mythology that were "rescued" by Victorians and Regency secret societies. I love all the fluff about Ragnarok when it's obviously just a stellar myth, for instance. But we do have tantalizing tidbits like the Irish Tree Alphabet, and interesting reconstructions of Proto-Celtic from Ogham stones. But, wow, Welsh is alive and well thanks to these poets. Could have been Cornish. But, however you feel about this, we CAN take this and detangle it because it's there. If they had not gotten creative with it and made it popular, nothing would be there to untangle. Even the Christian records can be seen through to the real myth beyond. At some point, is Tolkien's version of Sigurd and the Dragon any less True than the Ring Cycle? My favorite is Taliesin, but how many tales do we have across Europe of a witch's apprentice tasting of the brew and suddenly understanding the language of the birds? Looks like many a Welshman dipped their thumb into that brew as well....

[@TheWelshViking]

Weird. Welsh is alive because it’s a living language of communication, but I appreciate the sentiment

[@anieth]

@@TheWelshViking I didn't mean to imply that Welsh was dead, far from it, it's probably the most popular of the Celtic languages. I think the poetry contests and the fake druids do a lot to keep it popular. In the '70's when I was trying to learn Gaelic, everything was SO political and the languages were extremely unpopular for that. I'm glad that the music has mitigated the politics for someone like me who only cares about linguistics. Can you imagine someone trying to learn Welsh and getting Owain Glyndwr shoved down their craw when all they wanted was poetry? It's almost impossible to do some of the forms in English--Tolkien was very good at it.

[@thatguycameback]

My honest first response when I saw Iolo Morgannwg in the title, "Oh, THIS M****F****!" I've been researching early British history, especially in regards to the possible historicity of the Arthur Figure, and I can't tell you how much damage this guy has done to this particular niche field. There's a lot of crazy theories floating out there, but the craziest, loudest and most toxic come from those who draw from Iolo Morgannwg as if it's gospel truth. It's like a gateway to wonderful slogans like "all modern history is a lie!" and "Modern academics are conspiring with the Church and the English Monarchy to keep the truth buried!" It hadn't occurred to me that Morgannwg was responsible for a heightened sense of Cymric identity both in Wales and abroad, so it's a (very small) bit comforting to know he had some positive impact. That said, anyone who tries to push their personal nonsense as historical fact have a special place in hell.

[@juliebeans7323]

Not being Welsh, or even English - despite my convict ancestry - i think a discourse needs be opened about what is/isn't based on facts. The danger then becomes that all other documents then become judged. Our modern eyes and thoughts could start to discount other 'real evidence' as being 'fake' - and then when all those who lived during WW2 have passed, those events will be deemed fake. If that makes sense. I mean, we already have people questioning the holocaust, man landing on the moon.....heck, there are still some who believe the earth is flat.....

[@TheWelshViking]

Good historians and researchers literally judge all their historical documents. Not all of them are judged fake, and it’s saved a lot of lies being spread. This is not a danger if done properly. Lots of claims from WW1 and WW2 have already been debunked. The vile act of holocaust denial and the nonsense of flat earthers is very much a delusion, not at all similar to the legitimate and necessary practice of historical source criticism, which I use daily in my work.

[@juliebeans7323]

@@TheWelshViking unfortunately not everyone has tertiary education and the ability to discern these things. The amount of crap on the internet is proof anough of that. Get a few people pushing certain bits of information at the expense of the whole, and you have potential for trouble.

[@redjenny8652]

And the necessity of such niche education is why historian is a specialised profession at all - why we don't simply listen to what anybody who lays eyes on them says about a 'primary' source. To be suspicious of the very concept of approaching sources critically because it may lead to historical denialism is an approach that will lead a layman to taking whichever sufficiently old texts they lay eyes upon at face value, and most people don't actually see enough of these things to notice when they contradict each other. In fact the presentation of which very few historical sources they do see floating around the internet or in a museum is the crux of the issue, and shying away from critical analysis from those who know more of the context because that is their job that they trained for is hardly going to help.

[@Graham_Rule]

In Sandy Bell's tonight I was drinking Jarl but if I'd known this was about to appear I might well have switched a couple of pumps to the right and had Ossian instead just to get me in the mood. I've seen 'popular' books demonstrate how easy it is to go from looking at genuine sources into being a little more imaginitive about what might of happened. Slipping into complete fabrication must be such a temptation (especially if there's a multi-book contract or TV series to come). I'm sure that doses of opiates help with coming up with the ideas. Thanks for bringing us back to reality. As a Scot who knows virtually nothing about Welsh history and culture I'd have no problem at all if there more of that explained here. Let's hear more from the the Welsh side of the Welsh Viking. PS. I hope that you're not in pain any more and not needing any opiates. 😁

[@ElisabethOrchard]

I am an archaeology student (with focus on pre- and protohistory, which includes Hallstatt and Latène, aka "Celts") who is doing a year abroad in the UK and took electives in the Celtic Department here. That's how I first learned about him. I am so down for this video now. First, I want to here your unique perspective as a Welshmen with knowledge about archaeology, and second, I hope that I just can redeirect people to your video in the future, instead of ranting on about the topic XD Is there any chance you will make a video about MacPherson and the Ossianic debate, and how and why people in the 18th and 19th century felt the need to "reinvent" history and "celticness"? It is shocking how much the ideas and fabrications of this time are still alive. In one of my tutorials, everyone else in the room, including the tutor, was convinced that Stonehenge was tied to "Celtic" rituals in antiquity. But if you look at the facts and finds, Stone henge is as "Celtic" as it is Roman, maybe even less so. And it is older, too. "Celts" emmerge in the pre-Roman Iron Age, more or less, whereass Stonehenge - though built, used, and changed in phases - is mainly Stone Age. But still, people see the damn thing and go all "Stonehenge! Druids! Celts!" on it. Niw, talking about it, a Stonehenge video would be cool, too, and there are so many interesting things one could put the focus on.

[@mayanscaper]

This is my frustration as well. When I studied neolithic archaeology and landscape archaeology it became clear how amazingly deep British history lays on the land. I'm an amateur (my education is in Mayan ethnohistory). However the drive for a national history, such as how Celtic Welsh was invented from snippets of writing and oral histories is universal. Iolo is a fascinating character.

[@lovesings2us]

Thank you for sharing your kind, honest, perspective. What a bummer that Iolo Morganwg engaged in fraud about something so profound that affects so many people! I hope his soul got the enlightenment and healing he needed after he died and went to the next world. May all the people who bought into his lies, including me, find the wisdom and healing we need.

[@lucydrysdale4733]

As a Scot living in Aberdeenshire where our culture is dying, heck no-one under the age of forty speaks Doric (our local Scots dialect) I wish that we had someone to help us celebrate our culture. I know that we are home to the Bothy Ballad, which are really fun songs created by the young farmhands whilst staying on the farms, but the vast majority of us probably don't know the original use of a bothy. I can't speak Scots because there was no-one around me to speak it with. Even people I know are fluent speak in English as soon as you don't open up with 'fit like', and it's a real shame. So I know first hand really what can happen without celebration of our culture. And I think for that, he has done amazing things for the Welsh people. But I do see the problems of the lies. I think the main problem is people actually believing that they are real. I don't care if you choose to carry out the ceremonies that he made up, but I think that we do need a more in the public gaze about not-correct sources. these lies aren't hurting anyone, but when the lies are bigger and more dangerous, then that is where the problem really lies, but we can't treat it differently. To conclude, I'd say that the work he did for Welsh culture is invaluable, but he unfortunately is placed under the fake history category because he didn't label his work as fiction, which has had consequences on our view of the ancient Celts, and as you've said, has been quoted as fact. Although, I must point out that I had never heard of him beforehand and my knowledge of the subject is not complete, so I cannot offer a complete conclusion

[@rittj.1303]

It's cool hearing about people like Iolo Morganwg (or as the auto-captions called him, YOLO Morgan xD) because it reminds you that there's so many grey areas in history. And a good reminder to always double check your sources!

[@katienewell7350]

This was so interesting! Love learning some more Welsh history from you!

[@OldManFerdiad]

I'd really love to see you and Kristoffer Hughes sit down and chat about Iolo, modern druidry and Welsh culture.

[@TheWelshViking]

Big Kris is an absolute legend, I’d love to gave a gab with him

[@OldManFerdiad]

@@TheWelshViking I've known him for years and he's a delight as well as a fount of knowledge. I reckon he'd be well up for it.

[@antiquitywright3533]

The fact that his name is basically 'yolo' is amazing.

[@enmas]

To quote The Good Place- "There is something so human about taking something good and ruining it so you can have a little bit more." The way he so clearly wanted more from history, and when he couldn't find it made up his own instead is just so human. We want to find these links so badly, we want all of the information so we can build tidy webs and boxes connecting it all.

[@katyalysander1490]

Thanks for another entertaining and informative video! I’d never heard of Iolo Morganwg before though I’ve certainly seen that 3-stave symbol around. The fake manuscripts thing strikes me as more sad than trickster, like he felt insecure about the lack of documented Welsh ancient history, and rather than going the Willam Blake personal-revelation route, he needed to best the antiquarians at their own game in order to prove Wales had a Real Culture. Not something that needs further proof in my opinion, but I can imagine being a cultural worker in the middle of the scientific revolution and wanting to do more than stammer and look embarrassed when people asked “well, where’s your evidence for this Great and Ancient Welsh Tradition, then?” Being unable to “prove” the validity of your culture according to the standards of the time must have been painful. Much like laudanum, authenticity’s a hell of a drug.

[@beth12svist]

The proving a country has its own culture was a Thing. We have our own version over here in Czechia. I was reading up on it recently and I can tell you, the Welsh got off lightly with Iolo Morganwg. Our Václav Hanka in the 19th century A) worked for the Austrian secret police later in life, B) actually worked in the National Museum and apparently altered a number of actual historical manuscripts to better fit his version of events/the language. So. A real piece of work.

[@FreyjaJ]

Absolutely fantastic that you covered this! It's such a fascinating story, and his contributions/fabrications were truly marvellous and villainous in equal measure.

[@cypriennezed5640]

I absolutely had no idea where you were going and I'm so glad I held on for the ride! p.s. high fives for calling out Coleridge and his flippin albatross 💊

[@expatpiskie]

I never had an issue with Coleridge when I did the Romantic poets for A Level, the one that got my goat was Keats. Wandering around lovesick for the girl next door and writing page on interminable page about a Grecian Urn. I remember wishing that TB had got him sooner. On the plus side I loved Blake & still have a copy of his poems.

[@PhilipCarrGomm]

What an excellent video - thank you! The whole theme of how mavericks and tricksters have played their part in the development of cultural and spiritual movements is fascinating. Paradox and ambiguity are alive and well! And as some say here, much of the modern druid movement is aware of his failings while also appreciating the stimulus and inspiration he has provided.

[@mayanscaper]

Ronald Hutton just gave a terrific lecture about the search for Welsh gods in the extent Welsh poetry and stories. He talks extensively about the lack of ancient Celtic lore. He is quite scathing about Iolo.

[@jennybrown5302]

So excited to see more videos about Cymru! :D I enjoy learning more about it. Diolch yn fawr!

[@glassfibersweater6063]

Some parts really remind me of the great video "Book of Mormon as Literature" by the channel UsefulCharts. Talking about religious texts he said "Religious writings often tell us more about the time during which they were written than they do about the time during which they were set." I think that may be part of why Iolo Morgannwg's fiction (calling it what it is) may still have so much contemporary adherence. Actual ancient writings would have a hard time connecting with contemporary readers, because it assumes a completely different set of culture values and practices. Meanwhile, it is far easier to invent plausibly-ancient-sounding practices that would connect with the 18th century reader. And given the 21st century reader has more in common with the 18th century reader than an *actually* ancient person, we in the modern day can still resonate with the things Iolo Morgannwg invented.

[@evilwelshman]

I guess another way of looking at it is that he probably did not anticipate his works to become so historically influential and significant. It was a product of its time and - dare I say it - potentially necessary thing at the time in shaping Welsh identity during the Enlightenment period? As was said, others were digging into their pasts to find new old ideas in order to reject the status quo. However, at least for the ancient Druids, there was nothing to readily dig into since they didn't write anything down. While he and others could have potentially drawn inspiration for the movement from other sources in Welsh history, it's plausible that it might have been less alluring and thus less effective at drawing the people together. Which is to say that it might have wound up being what was (a) necessary (evil) in order for Welsh identity to survive and to prosper the way it has today.

[@Rayshard.Oblique777]

Perhaps Iolo's laudanum imbibation allowed him to lock into the Celtic collective unconscious?! And together with elements he had gleaned from surviving folklore of the oral tradition,etc, that in fact his writings/rituals ended up being pretty close to the mark? Always go with the myth....Great vid by the way.

[@AleriaCarventus]

No other content creator posts get me quite as excited as when I see a new video of yours out!

[@Wulfyric]

To quote the mighty Icelandic bard Björk Guðmundsdóttir, "You shouldn't let poets lie to you"

[@tjbren576]

I can't think of a single person who is or was 100% good or bad. Part of what makes humans such a fascinating creature is the ability to morph and switch directions almost instantly. Man is the ultimate shape shifter.

[@chrispe82]

Love your timing Jimmy 😂. Just perfect Well done again with your research & presentation. Love your work.

[@catherinerw1]

Seeing the debunking of the Primrose Hill "ritual", can you do something similar for the Beltane piss-up on Arthur's Seat?

[@andrewbutler7681]

I used to know someone who took part in the Primrose Hill shenanigans - he had also taken a lot of suspicious substances and often didn't know what decade it was... We weren't sure if he was a hero or villain either!

[@johannageisel5390]

I never heard about that guy, but I am very familiar with having to accept that historical figures are often both good and bad. (As are contemporary people we know.) Karl Marx, Martin Luther, Mahatma Ghandi and plenty of others: They did good things for human progress and freedom, but also said/wrote or did bad things. That's why I have no personal "hero" or anybody I uncritically admire. The likelyhood that a public figure has dark aspects too is just very high. One can still respect the positive things they did while keeping in mind the negative ones.

[@GallowglassVT]

Still don't understand why he didn't use ogham script as the basis for his alphabet. Might be Goidelic, but they're closer to anything the British druids might have developed if they got over their alleged issues about writing stuff down than Germanic runes are. Like, Iolo, babe, as a modern pagan, your shadow looms over us enough. You could have at least tried to hit closer to home on this matter.

[@user-yc8qi2yu4j]

REAL

[@pavelstaravoitau7106]

Plus weren't there some ogham stones in Wales or am I misremembering things?

[@GallowglassVT]

@@pavelstaravoitau7106 not that I remember, though the Irish did raid and briefly occupy regions of the country (if my own memory serves me) so it wouldn't be impossible.

[@pavelstaravoitau7106]

@Gallowglass I've checked and there are Ogham stones in Wales, though most of them have dual Ogham and Latin inscriptions.

[@gota7738]

Iolo Morganwg makes me think of Geoffrey of Monmouth's bullshittery and my bad welsh take is that I think it was kind of funny of both of them. I admit to being way overly sure that the people's they claimed to source would have done exactly the same thing, on the basis of bardy people being just like that and a lot of them having wallets to keep full. I like to think Devils Bridge and Beddgelert are their own extensions of that tradition and I think we should start come up with the next one and this time have robots in it. Robot dragons.

[@user-yo1fb1kg4omykehiggs]

Hi Jimmy, glad to see you're looking and sounding a little happier! Another great video I always wondered how the 'Modern' druids knew how ancient druids carried out their ceremonies as they wrote nothing down!! On a side note the runes (although fake) I think look quite cool, so are they only for writing in Welsh or could they be used for English? Again, brilliant video, thanks Jimmy, Cheers!

[@cindykurneck]

Thank you for this, and all your informative video's!!!! You are a fount of information and so generous to share it.

[@Vera-kh8zj]

this is very interesting. I guess that from time to time we just long for something that just "needed to have happened". Thank you for the content and the charming presentation, as always. Thank you also for not polluting it with unnecessary background "music".

[@TheGallicWitch]

Very interesting. I'm a gaulish polytheist so I'm always super interested in this muddled history of the celtic nations and their various remnants of actual history mixed with complete fabrication. I'm French so we learned a lot about the Gauls growing up and then it was a lot of figuring out as an adult if what they taught us was actually factual or just a way to make France look kinda cool to kids. Anyway. I couldn't help but notice the symbol you show at 14:48 looks an awful lot like the "awenn" symbol you see on quite a lot of Druidic/Gaulish/Celtic modern material (though the symbol I know how three dots over the lines). Do you know if that symbol came from Iolo Morgannwg's? Or does it predate it? Were they contemporaries? I think I read somewhere that a version of that symbol was found on a carving dated to somewhere around the gallo-roman period but it's very possible I'm confusing it with something else. Could you tell me if it has any link to Iolo's work or if it's from somewhere else?

[@Nyctophora]

Thank you Jimmy, for standing for both the truth and creativity :)

[@jaded_gerManic]

So many great points made and interesting discussions here that I've run out of ideas, lol. I'll say Hello All, have a great day! ☕️

[@Skooby59]

Lets GOOO! Looking forward to this Post vid: seems like so long as you are aware of the issues they caused, you can praise the dude. Kinda like being a fan of a musician that is problematic.

[@samwhyatt8685]

I have Welsh heritage and am enjoying exploring it more. If I ever come across something I'm not sure about, I'll always check to see if you have a video de-bunking it 😊

[@user-yc8qi2yu4j]

I am warm to a possible argument that nobody would've taken him seriously at the time if he had made it up, but tbh it would've been better. Imo he's a good dude who helped shape not only Welsh culture but also Druidism (Something I'm partial to) and just wish he could've been honest.

[@user-yc8qi2yu4j]

*If he admitted he made it up

[@elizabethmcglothlin5406]

With you there, brother, at least a little. I'm Wiccan.

[@Eyrenni]

"I don't know if he's a villain or a hero." He's human. For all the good and bad it did him and does us. Lol Very interesting video. Thank you!

[@morsatra42]

I love the threat at the end of the video. I was not expecting that :D

[@jamesonstalanthasyu]

That rototating wooden rows thingy with runes on it reminds me of Eastern prayer wheels.

[@foreverGM.006]

Great video as always!!

[@PatchworkNovelties]

There's something facinating to me about how easy it can be to make up history/cultural practises and have them taken as genuine. And it's not like that has changed over the past two centuries (Mesperyian, my beloved). And in large part it hinges on presentation, not even actual content

[@namewithay]

First! So excited for this video. I love all things runes.

[@rupertthebusdriver8997]

You can't beat a good yarn! Celts, gales, saxons, picts we all love a great tale , haha and why not!

[@chrysanthemum8233]

I think in the end there's no shame and much good in having national/cultural heros who on the one hand did some very important and great thing(s) and then on the other hand did some horrible stuff as well ... as long as we learn about both parts of the story. It's good for all of us to be reminded that doing good things doesn't cancel out the harm that we do, but also that the reverse is true as well: doing bad things doesn't erase the good that we do.

[@Julianspillers]

Most enjoyable! I`m similalry conflicted. Could you perhaps do a video on Macpherson`s poems of Ossian - another highly influential Celtic fake?

[@christinaguzzi747]

I totally tried to get into modern druidry. While it wasn't the thing for me, at the very least all of the books and such I read and the official groups I looked into were super clear that the movement goes back to the 1700s, they try to take as much historical info as they can but it's not much left from the real ancient druids, and that anyone claiming "true ancient knowledge" is full of it. As always, I love your content and look forward to your next video!!

[@lukedaniel7669]

A useful reminder that people and history are complicated. Bonus kudos for repeated use of the Getafix picture!

[@danaevans4720]

I think at the end of the day Iolo was like so many of us messy and complicated. And you're right, without him, there would be no Eisteddfod where I am in the States. My university is actually a Welsh language preservation center (might be the only one in North America). We have a Gymanfa Ganu coming up in the fall and that's probably all down to his influence. But yes, I'm equally torn with the whole making up history and rituals out of whole cloth. It is hard to undo the damage that causes. I spend all day trying to undo the over simplifications of primary school so I know how hard that is to change. The best you can do is what you did, acknowledge both sides of the coin.

[@jkosch]

Reminds that this is the same age when James Macpherson published his "collected and discovered" Poems of Ossian for the Scottish Gaelic side.

[@Hair8Metal8Karen]

I'm picturing him standing there reciting the intro to Stonehenge by Spinal Tap as 100% fact and it is making my laugh so hard.

[@angelmaden1559]

I think that is the hallmark of the great fakes and cheats - such wasted talent and opportunity. What a different legacy it could have been.

[@cliffordbaldwin9157]

I’m glad to see you that you’re doing well

[@gwynevans6440]

"Of their tits on Laudanum" is my Tinder name.

[@susannekalejaiye4351]

fascinating. What an interesting conundrum! The creation of a myth which translates into identity. it raises the question of other such. the Finnish Kalevala poems, collected from around parts of FinnoRuss Carelia, or further back Greek and Roman gods. Perhaps we need to give him his space, but note that his sources are his own rich imagination

[@francesquinn8091]

Another fascinating and very thought provoking video😊 Buiochas mór!

[@chrisgraythereal]

I spent my teenage years in Cowbridge and used to walk past that plaque without thinking about it. Can't say I ever heard anybody speak Welsh there though! For my money, if somebody's been doing something for 200 years and it's part of their identity then it's as real as anything else. I remember a friend of mine once commenting to me that all the traditions and rituals observed in the democratic institutions of the United States were created out of thin air after the revolution. Somebody recognised that there was a need for them, a vacuum that needed to be filled, so they went and invented what people needed.

[@phillipbernhardt-house6907]

I'm 100% with you on this, Jimmy... On the one hand, it's upsetting that he was such a convincing "collector" that many people to this day think he was conveying "authentic" traditions (though often they'll say "Celtic" rather than Welsh specifically, in my experience), which is awful, exhausting, and annoying; on the other, not unlike MacPherson's Ossian and such, one can't ignore that Celtic Studies and other disciplines as they exist now probably wouldn't be what they are without him. The industry of looking up his stuff and trying to prove him wrong, in essence, spawned an entire academic discipline, in certain respects (not entirely, but he certainly helped to build it!), so credit where it's due and all of that... I am far more upset at modern people who make up "Welsh Druids" shit and provide no references (other than their probably non-existent granny, etc.), and continue to do some of this sort of stuff, and then make money on books and workshops and so forth... yeah, it's even more annoying and exhausting and tiring, sadly.

[@LordOz3]

I write urban fantasy with lots of Celtic inspirations, and one of the ideas I had was to write a fictional "Book of Druidry" tie-in from the POV of the main character, but there's this nagging concern that even if I put in the introduction that it's a work of fiction, either people will get cross at me for making stuff up (I'm an auntor - that's my job) or people will earnestly try adopting it as a neo-pagan system (as my work is also influnced by my experience as a neo-pagan). I don't want to accidently be Iolo the Second.

[@stellaluna6421]

At the end of the day he sounds like a great storyteller. Not an empiricist by any means, but he sure wove some powerful tall tales

[@AStitchTooFar]

Maybe the problem lies more with the people knowingly perpetuating the falsehoods than with the original 'prankster'? This reminds me a bit of how the story of tijl uylenspiegel evolved.

[@Lunareon]

Fake history can be fascinating and hilarious, as long as no one tries to pass it off as actual history. In a way, it is quite an achievement, that some old fictional texts have inspired modern faith systems and rituals. It says something about humans' need for structure, connection and continuity. Even made-up rituals can fill those needs, as long as they feel meaningful to the practitioners, so we could just invent new systems for various purposes and situations infinitely!

[@lordofuzkulak8308]

9:46 - slightly off topic, but couldn’t help but notice your pronunciation of ‘Taliesin’; it sounds like you pronounced it as ‘Tal Yes-in’ - is this the correct pronunciation? Here down south in Morgannwg, I think I’ve only ever heard it pronounced ‘Tally Ess-in’; is one right and one wrong, or is this just regional variation/dialect?

[@TheWelshViking]

Being from a place that essentially speaks a different language I pronounce many, many words wildly differently to the people of Morgannwg

[@lordofuzkulak8308]

@@TheWelshViking so is our pronunciation of the name due to English corruption down here, or are both historically valid?

[@RowanWiccae]

I have seen those 'runes' circulated on platforms like instagram, facebook, tumblr and even through discord groups being claimed as 'ancient Celtic runic writing' and in all my years of studying what little we truly know about Celtic/Irish/Welsh ancient spiritual culture, runes aren't a thing. at least not these ones. yet people get so excited over the prospect without doing the research they share information without taking the time to do a background check and thus we see the same incorrect information pervading every social media outlet.

[@JanLegris]

My first reaction was. He's a bard! Bard's entertain, right? But that is just an initial, emotional response. He did make stories to sing the praise of something he respected, which you could say would be working for his 'king'. So do you respect something when you lie about them to the extent that they are transformed beyond their scope? Historical fiction is fun, but it is considered as light weight & not serious. Fair, but dismissive. It's a really tight knot you are trying to unravel there. Like it, but know it for what it is, feels like a facile response, but the best I've got for now. Fun video, thanks for your hard work Jimmy :)

[@christineg8151]

I appreciate good historical fiction. I'm especially fond of authors who acknowledge the history behind their writing and try to make it clear where they have deviated. In particular, I'm thinking of Judith Tarr, who writes wonderful historical fantasy, and she often includes an extensive afterword detailing what the *real* history is, what her evidence is for some of her choices, and when she deviates, why. I had heard the name Iolo Morgannwg before, but didn't know any of his history or the controversy. It sounds like he would have been a fascinating individual, even if he did do a lot of (very aesthetically pleasing) damage. I can see why you're conflicted!

[@Duececoupe]

You can view him as a rascal, just like Loki and take it from there! 😉 I just binge watched three of your videos, because I missed them (will you be popping around now and fart on my pillows), no idea how that happened! As for getting stressed out about your videos, how often you make them, try not to worry and stress about it, I find your videos good enough to watch several times, so....pour yourself a nice mjöd, kick back and chill....you make your videos when you're good and ready, feel inspired to do them as they're always worth the wait! I'm a Patron and I'd say that my money are well spent! 🤜🏻🤛🏻🍻 Waves in younger futhark from Glasgow! 😉

[@BrotherJing1]

It's interesting, the Cornish Bards still award Arwen medals, with those symbols on, but to be fair I was unaware of the link despite knowing a bit about the origins of modern druidry etc. It's interesting, I mostly believed him to be a prat as I've often spent alot of time arguing against his modern version of 'ancient' beliefs but wasn't aware of the work he'd done for Welsh culture...like you say, a complex figure.