The First Contactless Only Station (No Oyster)

On the London Rail and Tube Map, Brookmans Park has appeared with a 'Contactless' symbol next to it, denoting it can be used for Contactless PAYG travel, but NOT Oyster cards!
You can still use a paper ticket - as always - of course, but there's more of these to come, with nine stations about to appear on the Tube Map which will also be Contactless Only/No Oyster. I went for a ride to Brooksmans Park to investigate.
With thanks to Mike from the 'Oyster Rail' website. For so much information about Oyster/Contacless and your questions answered, have a look at Mike's amazing site: www.oyster-rai...

[@GregRobsonUK]

The year is 2035 and Birmingham New Street has been added to the London Tube Map under "Zone 43"...

[@bobparsons77]

Great..lets add Alberta too!

[@jeakinsmotors1676]

After TFL spend eleventy trillion pounds upgrading the Oyster system from 4-bit to 8-bit

[@marcuspotter5590]

Pigs will fly before that happens!

[@MsEdy09]

Lest add thurso in 2050

[@patientzero4889]

The year is 2035 and we're all dead from global warming/disease/nuclear winter - delete as applicable.

[@eddy66t6]

"I have been here before..." Says man known for visiting all the stations....

[@2W0PQU-Ethan]

eddy66t6 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@Ostermond]

All the stations. All of them.

[@MrPaulFCockburn]

But he didn’t get off at all of them... 😀

[@anononomous]

All of them?

[@jameschristmas3206]

MainBlag Banner Apart from those on the Isle Of Wight of course

[@Joe-cs3fr]

I'm 16 so use a 16+ Oyster card - a contactless card would charge me the full adult fare, and a paper ticket would also cost me the full adult fare without a 16-25 railcard... not sure I'm a fan of this

[@roryonabike5863]

Codra The new New York Subway contactless system will charge reduced fares for people who are entitled to them. There’s nothing inherent in contactless payments that prevents that.

[@drewrlsmith]

Codra You can get railcard discounts on a paper ticket

[@nathanw9770]

I'm not a fan of this either.

[@gabri_maybe]

Well,Here in Italy,16 Years olds Are Using a students card,apparently the students card used to from 11 years until 18,Now i got a card(since im 11)That shows me Under 14 And dont Need to tap in/out,Contactless Here is only supported on the underground,not on the surface

[@cvncfhjhfhdfcht8531]

Rory on a Bike but in London that’s not the case. Under 19s have to use a special Oyster card with a photo, or get a paper ticket, to get discounted fares.

[@Vokabre]

So, would the stations that don't accept contactless be called contactlessless?

[@elliot7753]

Vokabre or just “contact”

[@bobi7152]

Contactful?

[@Nebbia_affaraccimiei]

I think "useless" is the term you are looking for..

[@dtvfan24]

all stations should accept contactless, its not that hard to add a card reader

[@rosiefay7283]

We can't have contactlessless! We must be contactlesslessless.

[@TheStevenWhiting]

"Seek assistance" yet alot of the stations they've removed all the staff. Thats the next thing to do. Go round noting all station where the ticket offices have all been shutdown.

[@tabbyc4889]

Yeah and brookmans park hasn't had a ticket office for ages! I guess they mean call the help line thing.

[@louisromero2320]

Ahhh the paris metro method... Great.

[@adamlangton8666]

Quite true, is anyone going to bother paying full stop if travelling from somewhere like this to say another station with same set up (no barrier)

[@deanlawrence6578]

i once seeked assistance when it said that, I ended up with a fine.

[@underground1019]

Chiltern Transport Productions There are no ticket booths at Ruislip but there is always at least 1 member of staff on hand to assist anyone.

[@KeshtheKing]

"Mind the gap between the train and the contactless platform."

[@conormurphy4328]

YOU MAY NOT TOUCH THE CONTACTLESS PLATFORM

[@oliverbrelsford5472]

It's a big one mate

[@gwyneddboom2579]

Mind the drone that will lift you over the contactless platform.

[@Wanyeee]

Found ticket deals. Want the link?

[@dronespace]

I am completely against this. The whole point of oyster is to have a simplified system where you can use the card everywhere. If they start having stations that don't allow them then that completely defeats the point

[@Garner84]

Fair, but they are outside of London. If they keep adding stations it will engulf the nation 😂

[@mccobsta]

@@Garner84 why is that bad it sounds pretty damn good a simple to use system instead of the mess we have now

[@johndotto2773]

@@mccobsta Japan has the UK 10 years ahead with its smart cards being interoperable, where you could have a card issued in Tokyo (Pasmo or Suica) for like the Tokyo Metro, and be able to use that in Osaka (ICOCA) or Sapporo (Kitaca), and vice versa. Imagine you could use your Oyster card in Merseyrail, or the Tyne and Wear Metro, or in the Glasgow Subway.

[@daroldcarold3443]

@@Garner84 good

[@grassytramtracks]

​@@Garner84 and that's a bad thing?

[@frankw4847]

Is it just me or do others also think that unoysterable stations are actually not very user friendly?

[@sabersz]

It's just a massive piss take, I'll probably avoid this station entirely on future trips up to London where I just put everything onto my Oyster and leave it at that

[@mudchute4dlr]

Agreed, especially for children

[@grassytramtracks]

Not just you, it's confusing and especially user unfriendly to students, children, and the elderly. Hell, the whole oyster system has become way too complicated

[@geniusphil1]

15 zones to match the number of storeys each tube station has.

[@QuarioQuario54321]

meerkatologist Why would it be so difficult to just add another bit?

[@dfross87]

​@@QuarioQuario54321 Doubtless the system (either the fixed infrastructure, the Oyster cards or both) has been designed down to a budget and everything would need to be replaced. In which case you might as well add another 4 bits, and have enough zones to throw them around Greater London like confetti. Hell, why not go crazy and add another 20 bits (24 total). That should be enough to expand Oyster2 to cover the whole country!

[@QuarioQuario54321]

dfross87 How did you calculate you’d need 2^24 zones to cover the entirety of Britain? I feel like 8 bits would be enough. Maybe 16. A zone 2^24 to zone 1 journey would probably cost £1000.

[@dfross87]

@@QuarioQuario54321 I didn't. I simply added bits until I felt a suitable absurd number had been reached.

[@crazygeorgelincoln]

Don't mention that😀 they will start charging for elevation travelled as well as longitude and latitude.

[@jermainelong1843]

The orange colour scheme on the reader would suit London Overground stations better.

[@Tomi_janet15]

Yes

[@patrickwigmore3462]

So Oyster cards; famously contactless; are no longer "contactless", despite still being contactless? Nope. It's not confusing enough. They need to do better.

[@techblogger8323]

It’s so stupid Ireland has terrible public transport but we use leap cards on all public transport except national buses (you pay like normal or buy ticket online)

[@danieia4029]

They do - it's stupid. It should be able to deduct the credit regardless of the zone.

[@theidiotzonexo]

@@techblogger8323 Leap cards 100% need to be added to the Bus Eireann and Expressway buses now

[@techblogger8323]

OhLookAWoodenSheep that’s what I thought but with the cost of expressway buses idk is it worth it likei would like if they added it so you could make some journeys cheaper ie. say you got route 64 from Sligo to Galway and then to limerick on the X51-if you took the like next bus it would almost count as a connecting journey and the price wouldn’t be as high as buying two singles, does that make sense even with Irish rail to buses Just like how with the metro card in NY sometimes a bus that you get after leaving the subway is free because it’s counted as a connection

[@theidiotzonexo]

@@techblogger8323 I feel they should discount the fares slightly like on the city buses as an incentive to use the cards, so instead of paying €10 for return it would be €8.70 or something, would make idle times at bus stops shorter due to more efficient passenger loading and overall make the buses more on time

[@johnstilljohn3181]

Is this level of fare structure complexity really necessary...?

[@nelsonricardo3729]

No. overlay NYC on London at the same scale. Voilá, your new zone 1. All other zones should spread out at a similar distance.

[@magical_catgirl]

Sydney (Australia) was meant to have a smart card public transport ticketing system in place for 2000. After many issues, it took until late 2012 until the Opal card started getting rolled out. The last issue was that the fare structure with the paper tickets was so complex that they couldn't program the system to accommodate it. They had to simplify the fare structure before they could get the Opal system implemented.

[@wintrwunderland]

@@magical_catgirl Even the way most PAYG National Rail smartcard systems work is they just fetch the equivalent paper ticket fare at the end of the day and then charge your debit/credit card for it.

[@gfuentes8449]

@@nelsonricardo3729 NYC MTA looks to have similar operating/total debt to TfL despite its simpler and cheaper fare structure. Zone distance resonates because it's intuitive but not really relevant any more than why calling Cuba costs 100x calling Germany from anywhere. Pricing is an art and there are a lot of things below the surface when you're operating at this scale. TfL has chosen a complex algorithm which is more "fair" per distance but less intuitive.

[@lmlmd2714]

@@magical_catgirl I'm a big fan of the Opal system. It's simple, and better still, the fares are logical and *reasonable*. TfL fares are none of those things.

[@Jim_Welch_OK]

Programmer's worst nightmare: "You new assignment is to fix bugs on the legacy system."

[@thetracktrekkersclub9521]

Reorganise the zones.. aim for fewer zones in London .. merge zones 2&3 , merge 5&6 ...

[@EdwardMillen]

I'd actually be up for trying to sort this out, if they'd give me half a chance

[@K-o-R]

Can I get my Railcard discount on contactless yet? No? Then this is a bad move. Can I put my Railcard and PAYG balance on my SWT Smart/SWR Touch/whatever-the-hell-the-next-incompatible-smartcard-is-called? No? Then this is a bad move. _The entire point of Oyster is its simplicity of use._

[@tams805]

The thing is, it's a lot easier to manage and maintain having railcards etc. being stored on each card. So it was set up that way. Much later, contactless came along and is often part of a credit or debit card. Banks are obviously not happy to give potential access to any data in that system. However, the Oyster cards are not set up to have their data on servers. Hence the current situation. I think the ultimate solution will be to scrap the current Oyster system and place it with a pseudo debit card (think pre-paid card). That will, however, run into issues with banking regulations, especially regarding minors.

[@juliestockmeyer5871]

That's what I'm thinking!! They'll charge higher fees to our bank cards!!!

[@erkinalp]

@@tams805 Oyster, as it is, already a credit card (due to negative balance thing). Just a specialised one.

[@aaronstorey9712]

@@juliestockmeyer5871 they already do

[@ImAnAutie]

The silly thing is, in theory, it should be possible for them to link a railcard to a contactless card.

[@harrierjames7727]

This is literally just stupidity.

[@Baker.Creative]

James Phillips they basically just want more money from it lol

[@CheapskateMotorsports]

@@Baker.Creative this just gives people the excuse they need to not tap out

[@MrEdrftgyuji]

They are fulfiling the governments agenda. They know what they are doing.

[@OldUKAds]

Really just that?

[@mattpotter8725]

@@CheapskateMotorsports Not tapping out would probably cost you more as they'd charge you the maximum fare for that line, and besides what about tapping in, you're running the risk of a potential fine, and getting stuck at a barrier if coming into central London.

[@martijnkosters9024]

Let's restrict your payment options, yay? It is so confusing, Geoff even struggles, it feels like it is one step away from random fares in your disadvantage.

[@spiccybaby]

They don't want old people in Brookmans Park.

[@digitig]

The over 60s Oyster is only valid as far out as Hadley Wood anyway, so the station is outside the region we can use it.

[@spiccybaby]

@@digitig Fair point. I still reckon they have a sign "Welcome to Brookmans Park. 60 or over? Bog off".

[@rodliss712]

My cousin lives in BP. It's posh but souless. She's under 60;)

[@lorrainewalker6493]

when the 84 had london buses,oyster validators, were oyster/freedom passes accepted up to the Spires or what

[@obsessivelocust]

@@lorrainewalker6493 Originally on the 84 they were accepted up to Hadley Highstone/Greenacre Close, then they were accepted up to Potters Bar station for a while, then not at all because TfL didn't want to pay the commercial operator. So Hadley Highstone is in London but the only bus serving it doesn't accept Oyster cards, which is kind of ridiculous.

[@itsdamoko]

As if the map wasn't complicated enough. Good luck on squeezing all the info into the new map TfL.

[@joermnyc]

Maybe the new map will just be a code your phone scans to link to an online map... that’ll be fun when you have no cell service or WiFi in the tube!

[@28481k]

If I were TfL, I might not be interested to squeeze the stations beyond West Drayton to the Tube Map at all…

[@adambell2891]

They might just do up to west drayton. Then have the line trailing off a bit with the words "for all stations to reading". Then those oysterless stations would technically not be on the map.

[@lindsaydonovan6241]

@@joermnyc Further excluding Luddites from the system!

[@adambell2891]

@Chiltern Transport Productions Don't forget the cable car lol

[@caw25sha]

Year 2020 - The Oxford English Dictionary announce that Oysterable has been added to the dictionary.

[@sheisveryfamous]

If only it had been 😜😛😬😭

[@villageorganist]

A fascinating video. I used to commute to Brookman’s Park once a week - with a paper ticket - from the suburban platforms at Kings Cross. I would sit at the front of the dmu and enjoy the smell of the fumes and the bell-ringing as we approached each signal. Times have certainly changed!

[@spewter]

Tom Scott would've done a whole video on the 16 limit. You know, just sayin', Geoff 💅🏻

[@fetchstixRHD]

Sounds like a great idea for a collaboration, maybe in the next series of The Basics... 🤔

[@geofftech2]

Or Matt Parker, i was thinking ... !

[@EddArmitage]

I’m immediately intrigued as to what Zone 0 is, if it’s a 4 bit property.

[@g30r93g]

@@EddArmitage hmmmm I'd love to be at the board meeting where they missed that one...

[@wintrwunderland]

@@EddArmitage I heard a suggestion that Zone 0 was bus and tram, which is probably the case.

[@CarolCreates]

I remember when London was just zones 1️⃣ 2️⃣ & 3️⃣ 😀

[@Joshyboy1928]

Right. So when Crossrail opens, if someone touches in with their Oyster at TCR (which is a perfectly valid thing to do) and decides to go to Reading, will they not be able to get out at the end? Am I the only one seeing this as a problem?

[@arpwable]

That's already quite possible now, at any station where you can go through a LU gateline and then get on a train that goes outside the Oyster zone. Moorgate and West Brompton spring to mind, I'm sure there are others. Result I imagine is no different to if you tapped in at a Southern/SWT station in the London suburbs and stayed on the train out to somewhere way out of London - you'll have travelled without a valid ticket and be subject to a penalty fare. There should be warnings on the platforms and in the trains though of course. If you tapped in with Oyster at TCR, heading towards Reading, then you'd have to jump out at or before West Drayton, tap out, then either tap in with Contactless or buy a paper ticket. And probably then wait for the next train!

[@ian9outof10]

@@arpwable SWR do have warnings on the trains via announcments and screen prompts "oyster cards are not valid beyond the next station stop, etc". But it's a bit late, unless you hunt down a guard and ask for an extension.

[@matthewmcalpine6938]

​@@ian9outof10 It's the same on Chilterns Railway trains traveling northbound of Amersham. There is an announcement before you get there saying that Oyster cards are not valid beyond Amersham.

[@softgrungewitch]

As someone who spent the past year commuting to Ascot from Clapham Junction it's astounding how many people already tap with Oyster at the London stations only to realise it doesn't work past Feltham on SWR. I've seen multiple people have to buy tickets from conductors who have come along the train to ensure people are travelling with valid tickets.

[@AdamTurnerUK]

These are all true but this will be a TfL operated route! For TfL not to accept one of their own primary methods of ticketing seems a little crazy to me.

[@YEETMAN-dt9mb]

Maybe they can add an oyster symbol with a cross through it on the map. And make an announcement before the station "Oyster Cards are not valid at Brookmans Park. Oyster Passengers for Brookmans Park should alight at Potters Bar or Welham Green."

[@allthestroke88]

This was a very informative video. And I'm still very confused.

[@nixcails]

GWR are supposedly launching contactless on local commuter routes , and already have their smartcards. I remember when SWT introduced ticket gates with Oyster style tap and go barriers outside TfL travelcard zone that people thought Oyster was coming further out but as you are aware Geoff it was just to upload season tickets on smartcard ticketing.

[@grassytramtracks]

I don't think contactless bank cards, but you can use a smartcard with pay as you go credit within Bristol and also in nearby towns and Cities like Bath, Cheltenham, Gloucester and Weston Super Mare and it reaches to Freshford, Chippenham and Ashchurch (for Tewkesbury)

[@nixcails]

@@grassytramtracks is the GWR Connect card or something issued by Travelwest the local transport partnership.

[@MrFizzbox]

My 16-25 railcard is linked to my oyster card. It gives me a 30% discount on rail and oyster fares. This means that i would have to pay with contactless here which is not linked to my railcard thus costing me a full fare. I will likely never travel to this station but never the less it annoys me.

[@cheesekingofdenmark6910]

I see why Oyster is going out of date, but I hope they'll still have cards, mostly for tourists, and just call the whole smartcard/contactless ticketing system the "Oyster System" (or similar). It would be sad to see the name go completely.

[@thetraincrazykid]

At the time when I worked at London Bridge station, it was cheaper to purchase a ticket from London Bridge to Gatwick in the Peak hours, however it is cheaper to use contactless/oyster in the Off peak. Peak: Paper ticket £11.00 Contactless/Oyster £15.00 Off Peak: Paper ticket £11.00 Contactless/Oyster £8.30 No idea why but that is how it is. I always advised customers to use the cheaper method before entering! Tourists seemingly unaware that they’re paying more than they should on an already overpriced system!

[@brynstarre]

10:08 The camera is overcome with emotion at the outrageous charge of £3.20!

[@lucybrown7396]

LashLightning 3.20 isn’t even that much, I pay a lot more every day for college

[@brynstarre]

@@lucybrown7396 It's more that it was an extra £3.20 from the previous stop - he has already paid £12(?) to get there, unless I'm not understanding the situation right.

[@chloep2187]

These London train and tube videos are so interesting to me because the system is so different from the trains where I live. In Victoria, Australia we only have three zones in total and zone three is for the rural Vline trains which you have to buy tickets for rather than use a Myki, our name for the oyster type card. Also contactless hasn’t come into fruition anywhere in the state thus far and touching on with a virtual card on a phone is restricted to android devices and the card readers are still being updated for it to work seamlessly

[@LittleJimmyR]

Hello! I am also Victorian, although nowadays there is 2 Metropolitan zones, and then to certain places (Waurn Ponds, Wendoree,Tralagon,Huntly etc,) you can now use a myki too. Also no contactless is very true and very annoying.

[@tobeytransport2802]

I was once on a train that was going from Victoria to ramsgate, and it stops at Bromley south and then into Kent (long field is the first stop in Kent) and a lady thought she could go to somewhere beyond Bromley using her oyster and the guard said “no sorry you have to get off at longfield and head back into London to tap off” she was a bit upset but at least he was nice and didn’t fine her. I think National rail conductors are much nicer than tube inspectors they will always make exceptions on NR but the TFL inspectors will just slap you with £80 Penalty

[@AidanMmusic96]

A genuine "Public Service" announcement. Great stuff Geoff, you got in early with this info!

[@geofftech2]

Diamond Geezer also blogged about it! diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2019/09/beyond-zone-6.html (Videos take much longer to make that blog posts do to write ... )

[@TheVanuPhantom]

And then there's The Netherlands, where we have one chip card system for all public transit in the entire country. (This includes, but is not limited to all metro systems, the national train network, busses, ferries and all trams.)

[@skegnas4948]

Curious to know how railcards would work with this? If I can't use my 16-25 oyster then I definitely want to use my railcard but as far as I'm aware you can't add these to contactless cards like you can oysters, so ultimately, I'd still use a paper ticket so I can save some money, making the effort futile for me at least. Loving the orange though!

[@quantisedspace7047]

Student/YP/Senior/Disabled railcards will all disappear eventually. People will just tap in and the bank will be contacted to determine if the journey is eligible for free/discounted travel.

[@sakhrjourno]

That's got to be the beginning of the end for Oyster then, doesn't it? This is how TfL talks about Oyster in their press release: "Pay as you go with Oyster will not be extended to services beyond West Drayton, due to limitations with the system, which is now more than 15 years old. Millions of journeys in and around London are already being made using contactless every day; with 60 per cent of rail pay as you go journeys made using contactless."

[@txquartz]

Pay as you go journeys mean everyone without a pass of any kind, right? So, likely not most regular commuters in that total

[@RayEttler]

you keep beating around the bush while there's the big elefant in the room with "WHY?" painted on his belly.

[@CarzorStelatis]

Because someone in the early 2000s decided that a 4-bit number to identify zones was acceptable for a public transport payment system launching in the 21st century.

[@tams805]

Was Oyster envisioned to extend so far though?

[@MaximilianonMars]

To force people to use cards. So the gov can track dissenters easier.

[@tylernilson7021]

@@MaximilianonMars and shut off their ability to move around

[@tylernilson7021]

whats with the german elefant?

[@na195097]

I don’t even live in the UK and i find this fascinating. It seems like oyster might be on its way out.

[@OldUKAds]

They've wanted to for years but it's hard to untangle.

[@hotelmario510]

Nah, how are people supposed to buy Travelcards otherwise?

[@transportflick923]

hotelmario510 back to the paper travelcard days boi

[@prodigalretrod]

If it's a 4-bit system, then they still have zone 0 up their sleeve, which could surely be used to reference an expanded bit range elsewhere in the EEPROM.

[@hlund73]

@@CliveCooperford Fixable, put all the buses in another zone with the same in zone fare.

[@samiant5199]

The system is just storing taps and then working out the fair afterwards elsewhere. They can create more zones it's all written in C I think

[@rimeoftheancientmariner]

4:43 "are you confused yet?" You could easily have asked that question three minutes ago and still got a universal "yes" response

[@KevinAndrew350]

I think from a branding point of view it's all a bit messy. Most people will associate that Oyster validator with...well, Oyster! Also, they've gone one step further and wrapped it in London Overground orange and the contactless logo on the map makes me think of free wifi not contactless payments.

[@nobbynobbynoob]

But it's an ORANGE (not YELLOW) touch pad, with a big no-Oyster sign attached. :)

[@johnwebb4566]

Ricardo Wiggett Nope. As Geoff says (and can be seen) “It’s a standard yellow pad, wrapped in orange.”

[@nobbynobbynoob]

@@johnwebb4566 I've looked at it again on my Android phone, and in the video it definitely looks like an ORANGE pad, distinct from the normal yellow ones found in the TfL area.

[@johnwebb4566]

Ricardo Wiggett Will have to disagree. It’s definitely yellow (and has the same icon as is displayed on the back of Oyster cards)

[@nobbynobbynoob]

@@johnwebb4566 Looking at it on my laptop also, it definitely still looks orange to me. It's funny how different eyes view the "same" colour wholly differently?

[@PopeLando]

I grew up in North Finchley and I'm a total tube-head, but Oakleigh Park was our nearest British Rail station. And now it's part of history!

[@iOmNoms]

What a fantastic way to make things even more complicated and confusing, when only recently the Rail Delivery Group announced it was simplifying fares (though there has been a lot of hush on that). The pocket size Tube map should be reserved for London Underground lines only, re-designed, or regretably made obsolete. If Crossrail does make an appearance, then perhaps only the core section should be shown - with arrows either end for Reading/Heathrow and Shenfield/Abbey Wood.

[@skin150263]

Perhaps it's just me, but it seems that every time the Rail Delivery Group says that it's simplifying fares, they seem to get more complicated...

[@joermnyc]

Perhaps they can still have the pocket sized map, but via origami it unfolds into a larger map when you open it, then folds itself back up into pocket size when you close it (I have a London street map that does this.)

[@swood1989]

If you were being cynical, you could suggest that this was being done deliberately to try and confuse passengers to apply penalty fares.

[@DavidStephenBrough]

Good to see you trending on KZbin in the UK

[@johnnyp9205]

Geoff how much do you spend on your Oyster card a year?

[@LeoMartinDJ]

So the thing that bothers me the most is the fact that today, we have issues whereby people are coming to Reading and even stations as far West as Newbury and Didcot with Oyster cards, and even when TfL Rail start their services to Reading on December 15th, these issues will still be present as they will tap in as normal at London and reach Reading to the same issue as currently. This solves nothing.

[@Jordanhug34]

£3.20 is cheaper then the usual £3.60 it is for an normal single for super off peak. Then if you travel peak it is £3.30 while it is £5.10 for a normal peak single. All from Oakleigh Park to Brookmans Park

[@SquirtyBertie]

10:16 Those 'Getting around Central London' leaflets are annoying me. I picked one up today, thinking it was a tube map, and was thoroughly underwhelmed when I realized it only had the very centre of the network.

[@Snowbomb6]

I have lived in London for 8 years and still don’t understand exactly how the fares and zones work. I bet they do it on purpose to confuse us with how much it costs

[@tourmaline07]

In a geeky kind of way I can't wait until they update to 8 bit and then have 256 zones , that should probably cover a good deal of the country outside London on the tube map - might as well seeing how everything centres on London ;)

[@cephalopod7300]

Zone 256 (or 255 I suppose if there's an implicit zone 0) will be somewhere like Pitcairn. Then a moon base will be built and everything will have to be upgraded again to reflect the new fare system. A space elevator will be incorporated rather like Emirates Air Line.

[@traindriver35]

One thing for certain is it will be chaos, especially for unfamiliar travellers or tourists. As for fares, paper ticket v PAYG. Use the TfL 'single fare finder' for PAYG and the National rail journey planner for paper ticket fares and compare. (no need for expensive trial and error as Geoff suggests) From these new areas, a day return paper ticket may be cheaper depending on times travelled, but for single journeys a Pay as you go fare with contactless will almost certainly be much cheaper and very good value to be welcomed. Example. Brookmans Park to Gatwick Airport PAYG is £10.80 off-peak £17.90 peak. A paper ticket standard single £18.60. However, for a return journey, an off peak day return paper ticket is £21.80 something to think about if using contactless and your return journey is in the evening PAYG peak 16.00-19.00 that would work out more expensive £28.70. Even more confusing though, at weekends a super off peak return is available at £14.10 so now it would definitely be cheaper to buy the paper ticket!! Basically it's a minefield and you have to become a geeky fare nerd to know if you're using the cheapest fare, which you shouldn't have to. These complications exist travelling to/from all these new areas, the secret zones 10-15 (Merstham-Gatwick, Epsom, Iver-Reading, Radlett-Luton Airport, Hertford North, Potters Bar-Welwyn GC, Grays and Shenfield) there are now essentially two competing fare structures with either being the cheapest depending on your personal requirements. GOOD LUCK & DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. The GTR waffle about comparable fares is just whitewash over this confusing shambles. They don't give a toss if you pay or not, it's not their concern, they don't receive the money. In my example above, to stumble into paying almost double for the same journey through lack of geeky fare knowledge is not comparable in my opinion. In an ideal world the system should compare both fare structures for the journey you make and charge the cheapest accordingly.

[@MaxBarnish]

Contactless only works with UK cards doesn't it - so a real issue for tourists.

[@tgm9991]

Nope Contactless MasterCard, Visa and American Express cards from other countries should work as well.

[@irinabalduzzi3509]

What if you are a tourist and your card doesn’t work? Or you loose your contactless? How are you gonna travel? There should be multiple options at every station.

[@John_259]

You forgot zone zero, which is located in Foreman's Scrap Yard, 76 Totter's Lane (near Coal Hill School). Transportation from there is occasionally available to all points in space and time.

[@ianmcclavin]

Yes, I noticed on Tuesday last week on the posters that Oyster had been extended to Potters Bar (makes sense, like Dartford/Swanley/Epsom) but Brookman's Park had acquired this "Contactless, but not Oyster" status. Oh well, the way forward I suppose. Glad you've made a vid about it Geoff, they are very useful for those who don't study these areas in as much detail as you and I do!! (PS it came as a bit of a shock last Tuesday to see a complete run out of 717's in the rush hour, so only Southern's 313's left now, rode to Seaford same day!!)

[@evd]

Of course there is no need to *buy* a paper ticket to test it out whether contactless is cheaper than a paper ticket. Just get a quote from the ticket machine, then cancel the purchase

[@AdamSmith-gs2dv]

Maybe maybe not. If you have to pay your bank those scam foreign transaction fees then paper will probably be cheaper

[@Welwyn22]

The way they decide Oyster zones has always confused me. Personally I think they should be based on actual geographical location instead of the higgeldy-piggeldy approach they're utilising now. (For example. Epping and Cheshunt are roughly on the same latitude. Yet Epping is in Zone 6, while Cheshunt is in Zone 9. In a latitude/longitude based fare structure they'd both be in Zone 6. Hertford East and Hertford North would be in the same zone as each other, same with Enfield Town and Enfield Chase).

[@nobbynobbynoob]

That is an interesting point. I assume that, in the Chinese voodoo that was used to determine zone numbering, supply and demand of transport were taken into consideration along with general geography.

[@ttrjw]

@@nobbynobbynoob It's almost certainly the case that there have been multiple passes on zoning. First pass would be distance based. Subsequent passes are then based on fare yield.

[@SouthPaw1805]

Until January 1997 Debden, Theydon Bois and Epping were all in Zone A (now Zone 7) if memory serves, but moved into Zone 6 following negotiations between Essex County Council and London Underground. At the same time, the boundary on the Metropolitan Line was moved to make Moor Park dual zoned (Zones 6 and A, whereas previously it had just been Zone A).

[@outwood1]

Why use zones at all? Sydney has its Opalcard which works in a similar way to London's Oystercard - even the ticket gates are often identical to the ones that you see in London. The Opalcard can be used on trains trams, buses and ferries, although with buses, trams and some ferries, it is necessary to touch out. The chief difference in Sydney is that fares are based according to distance travelled at least on train services. Currently the scales are 0km to 10km, 10km to 20km, 20 to 35km, 35km to 65km, 65km+. This means that the Opalcard doesn't just cover the Sydney area but also a radius of some 150 miles from the city centre too, including the Newcastle area, the hunter Valley and the whole of the Blue Mountains area. Currently the area is bounded by the following stations, Dungog, Scone, Newcastle, Bathurst, Goulburn and Bomaderry. There are fare caps for daily, weekly and Sunday travel plus separate paek hour fares. The only premium that requires to be paid is the airport access fee for both the Domestic and International airport stations, but these fares are only applied if you touch in or out at these stations - if you are passing straight through, then you are charged nothing extra.

[@andydrew2003]

I read something somewhere that the fares on those services had to be higher so as not to undercut the TOCs.

[@Sammie_Sorrelly]

In the nicest possible way, "Why?" and "Piss off". For sure the agenda here is to get people onto a more data-harvestable card.

[@jamesdavison1786]

S Laurence and to scam foreigners

[@ginge1394]

It has nothing to do with data harvesting. Oyster can’t physicall take anymore additions because of the system it runs on. It also can’t be updated. Everything would need to be ripped out and a brand new system put in place. It’s not worth the money and iirc people use contactless more than oyster anyway.

[@DavidWood2]

As Geoff explained in the video, the rather elderly Oyster system has reached its design limit. It only supports 15 (or perhaps 16 if zone 0 is potentially allocatable) fare zones - more than enough for the London zonal fare system (which uses 9 zones) and enough to support the handful of extensions beyond the London zones that are already in operation, but not enough for widespread extension beyond the London zones. The newer ITSO platform used for English concessionary travel permits and TOC issued smartcards can support a much more complex fares and passes system. This system didn't exist when TfL bought the system that they branded Oyster. The cost of moving the Oyster system to an ITSO platform in a programme that includes mandatory replacement of all existing cards would be considerable and such a move is not needed to meet the original Oyster objectives, for which the current system is sufficient. However, I would expect that the Oyster gates, validators, ticket machines and backend are eventually upgraded to support ITSO cards, eventually allowing new Oyster cards to be issued in ITSO form and eventual retirement of non ITSO Oyster cards. Indeed, TfL buses already have some ITSO support so that they can recognise English concessionary travel passes. I don't believe you can get a pass valid to an Oyster station outside the London zones issued on an Oyster card - if such a pass were issued in smartcard format, it would be a rail season ticket (or potentially a multi-mode product) on an ITSO smartcard. As Geoff explained, Oyster PAYG is pretty much extended as far as the system would allow outside the London zones. The big news is that the western end of the Elizabeth Line is not now going to support Oyster PAYG - so this will mean that for the first time there will be a TfL run service where Oyster PAYG cannot be used. Note: this is written based on my understanding of the systems, but I do not work in smartcard ticketing and am not familiar with all the details of the standards. This may contain errors and I would welcome corrections by those better informed than myself.

[@seeitsayitdoggo]

Actually the entire network already supports ITSO. has done for ages. If I got a day travelcard from Tonbridge to zone 1-2 on a smartcard, it would happily accept my ITSO smartcard everywhere in London zones 1-2 for that day. The actual infrastructure is ITSO ready, all they have to do is, say, reprogram every oyster card in circulation to support it. And that's why it won't happen.

[@seeitsayitdoggo]

Also zone 0 is for the bus and tram

[@elliotttalksf1825]

I love this guys enthusiasm for various payment outcomes on rail stations. 😂

[@DanCojocaru2000]

The contactless only and non Oyster stations should have both a contactless symbol and a no Oyster symbol to clear confusion.

[@Arxces]

Oyster Version 2.0 could be an Oyster-branded stored balance debit card, issued in partnership with either Visa or Mastercard. You could use such a card to buy things other than transport.

[@magical_catgirl]

This sort of thing will be a pain for people without UK based/GBP bank accounts. Assuming people from outside the UK have a chip card (not everyone does yet), they'll get charged exchange and overseas transaction fees by their bank for *each* ride, rather then just once when topping up an Oyster.

[@memediatek]

TfL charge at end of day or week

[@jeremyjoli]

Choose a fee-free card or a card charging a certain percentage of your purchase. And you can always buy a paper ticket (sometimes cheaper)

[@RhittoursTravels-k8v]

I think they need to redesign the tube map completely making the east side like the district line and Elizabeth Line Railway going straight on the right. The Central Line goes straight upwards on the right and the great western railway branch of the Elizabeth Line should go diagonally on the left.

[@Welshman2008]

Must be eerie for some Londoners when they find their Oyster cards don’t work outside of London

[@Moggster23]

Not to mention people who have freedom passes.

[@Welshman2008]

Moggy saying that my parents have Welsh govt all Wales bus passes, and we were in Southampton and they automatically showed them on a local bus but they forgot they don’t work in England bus driver was ok about it though.

[@caw25sha]

Sorry, where is this "outside of London" place?

[@nobbynobbynoob]

You'd be surprised (or not) at how common this is. People attempt to travel to "outer" parts of the home counties (a few inner parts are effectively London for public transport purposes already, thus Oyster would be fine) using Oyster or contactless TfL touch in so frequently that no-Oyster warning signs are erected at some stations, including my local one (fat use it is though to the hapless traveller who has ALREADY touched in in London, and now finds themselves in the predicament of holding no valid ticket AND having to grovel to TfL for a refund for the incomplete journey). In the past, when inviting friends over from London, I've explicitly given "no Oyster/contactless, buy a paper ticket, don't attempt to touch in" warning as a reminder.

[@Moggster23]

@@Welshman2008 it's not like your parents stop needing the use of their passes just because they've left Wales. I've just checked and it's the same story with freedom passes issued in England, they're only valid in England. Absolutely crazy.

[@BLX187]

so i can use my bank card in place of an oyster card?

[@andrewryder9642]

This is so geeky, but I love it.

[@ellenkingsley]

Geoff, me and my boyfriend had the pleasure to travel on the train you're travelling on for this video

[@IngvarMattsson]

I've recently noticed that Forest Gate station has Purp roundels on at least one platform, rather than the standard "TfL Rail" roundels.

[@michaelleedham7738]

Obviously going forward TFL want everyone to use contactless, but how do they square the circle of railcards, discounts etc that currently only work on Oyster?

[@ianmoseley9910]

Michael Leedham That will be so financially dangerous they will never be able to stop people putting devices nearby to skim cards

[@ce9934]

It's not an oyster zone station at all... it simply charges the adult single fare (or different when returning) to x. Think of it as a paper ticket journey paid by card.

[@AndrewJJ-0114]

I think it's actually totally solvable -- already you can register your contactless card on TfL and use that account to get refunds, etc. As I understand it, TfL contactless card payments are only withdrawn from the bank account at the end of each day, so you could easily register your card online, register your discount of railcard or whatever, then it would apply the discount automatically each day. I'd go so far as to say that the fact that the reason TfL *haven't* done this yet is probably because they are incentivised not to give people those discounts.

[@ImAnAutie]

@@AndrewJJ-0114 one way I can see them doing it is have the website show a card ID number (not the actual card number but a unique ID within the TFL system) which staff at a manned station can type in and link a railcard to.

[@luxwray4878]

All I can say is, having worked on gateline, this is going to confuse so many people

[@MattL3457]

Contactless tapping is becoming prominent more and more. I’m from West Yorkshire and our travel providers are getting contactless systems for buses on tap in and out for quicker services. All bus companies already have the contactless machines which is sometimes quick but at busy times is a burden when you have 30 people wanting to pay by card. I can see contactless becoming an error of its own creation.

[@AdamSmith-gs2dv]

Meanwhile in the US contactless is basically non-existent

[@clickrick]

Am I the only person who heard "Cross Eliz Purp line" and double-checked the upload date of the video?

[@SocieteRoyale]

I don't have a contactless bank card - therefore will I be forever trapped in limbo at the station?

[@insertaverygenericnamehere]

Yes. And Revolut cards do not exist (to get a contactless card).

[@channelglenn]

Is it really so hard to get one?

[@Sicplastificate]

December 2019: “interesting times to come.” Sitting here in 2022, I couldn’t help but shake my head .

[@K-o-R]

4:12 Azuma sneaking past in the background there.

[@philkeller4170]

Its all quite straightforward, fares between West Drayton and Reading will continue to be determined by those charged by GWR from Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading (which will increase every year above inflation as per DfT rules) - if they weren't then you would get 'cliff edge's appearing between fares from adjacent GWR + TFL and TfL only stations which is something specifically PROHOBITED by the DfT as a condition of TfL taking over National Rail services previously franchised out by the DfT. That in turn means that its impossible to have a singe Oyster zone to cover the entire route past West Drayton as mentioned by Geoff in the video. If Oyster cannot cope with more than 15 zones ten TfL have NO CHOICE other than to go with the 'contactless but not Oyster cards' setup when Crossrail stats operating west of the GLA boundary. The ONLY solution is to upgrade Oyster to handle more than 15 zones - but thats expensive and with TfL pretty cash strapped these days such a massive investment simply cannot be justified. Validity of TfL issued passes between West Drayton and Readingis yet to be finalised - but in view of the route / selected stations (and fares revenue) being shared out as per National Rail rules, plus the difficulty presented by only having a single zone spare in the Oyster system) any TfL pass will ONLY be valid on TfL services and may well also have restrictions on their usage (e.g. only after 09:30 for the freedom pass)

[@kharecha14nk]

You look like a mix between Jeremy Renner and Daniel Craig

[@ChrisWhiteAroundTheGround]

This video is the first interesting thing to ever happen in Brookman's Park.

[@callumimeson7370]

Love your videos. They are very useful and informative yet entertaining.

[@pickled51]

If you are a visitor from the US who has an Oyster Card and you enter the system at a station that accepts an Oyster Card, but leave at a station that only accepts contactless, what are you supposed to do? Especially at stations like Brookmans Park where there are no humans with which to interact. I am assuming you will have to know in advance that your destination station does not accept Oyster Cards and one will have to buy a paper ticket.In the US, only a couple of credit card companies provide contactless payment on their cards. This will be an issue for visitors from the US until the US gets with the rest of the world and makes their credit cards contactless. And since it took US credit card companies years to adopt chips, we are probably looking at a decade or two for contactless to become widespread.

[@98dizzard]

When I was doing revenue my advice to all tourists was to forget the oyster cards and just use daily paper travel cards. They never know how to touch in and out correctly and always ended up with maximum fares and running out of money on the oysters. It doesn't help that shops were selling oysters topped up with a Zone 1-6 cap preloaded and calling it a travelcard without explaining if they forget to touch in or out the cap is removed.

[@txquartz]

I haven't had a non-contactless card except my local credit union's for a decade, and even that can be loaded to your phone. It's not rare here. And I'm in an "unimportant" Midwest state, not the coasts.

[@patrickchampion8179]

Awful for those of us with railcards on our Oyster. You can't get a railcard discount on contactless yet, hopefully they can add it. Particularly bad for me because I live near Reading, guess where will be a contactless only station?

[@livatoseus]

Only a few more miles more and you'll have the same travel card system as we have in the whole of the netherlands. Imagine oyster but for the entire country (and bikes as well!!)

[@benjeffery1415]

5:10 there's some great geocaches in Brookmans Park

[@JamesR-dq6uu]

@@geofftech2 Geoff, what's your caching username!? 😊

[@benjeffery1415]

@@geofftech2 yup, been up there twice, there's a great piece of path that's right next to the railway

[@joannewoodward2482]

I imagine it areas like Taplow will be on the other side of the Tube Map showing the Overground Service after the last Tube Station Reading at the end of the Jubilee Line.

[@mikewolf5367]

Man I’d love if you could do all these challenges and testing and history lessons over in NYC with their MTA transit. I’m finding this quite fascinating and I don’t even live in the UK, lol

[@harleancarpenter8043]

You remember that station cat at Huddersfield, she wants to know if other fish can be used, as she's not a fan of Oysters, lol. Seriously, even without brain surgery, and radiotherapy to come soon, that lot could blow my brain, for me. Great video though, Geoff

[@roderickmain2154]

4 bits for all the zones. Yup. I can see that happening. Some software engineer (like me) is presented with an indadequate set of requirements (or none) and says - yeah, London - 6 zones ...maybe leave some room for expansion ... say 9 then. That'll need 4 bits. So actually, we could have 16 zones (OK - zero is invalid - fine ) ... so more than enough. The question that should now be asked is, how many zones would cover the whole country? I can see that 8 bits would probably be enough to cover the home counties (127 zones). 16 bits would give you 65535 possibilities. Enough?

[@mfaizsyahmi]

Should just future-proof all the way and use 64-bits... zones up to the next couple billion bubble universes over.

[@thomasfrederiksendk]

The original MIFARE classic 1k cards had 1024 bits to play with. 4 bits was probably what was left over once account info and amount of money on the card was stored.

[@erkinalp]

@@thomasfrederiksendk MIFARE plus cards have enough space. The other alternative is calculating the fares fully online, but the boarding process would be slower (barely noticeably). We did that during smartcard back office operator transistion in 2015 in Izmir. We had even briefly used paper tickets for buses.

[@rgmolpus]

The encoding includes a set of bits for the station itself (else they'd have no way of recording where a fare is collected from), what they really should do is use one zone as the 'Special Case' zone; and set the fare based on the zone AND the Station code.

[@erkinalp]

@@rgmolpus You do not need to store fare info in the card if you calculate fares online. Serial and keys only.

[@hikaru-live]

I think TfL is leaving the Zone 15 as a flag - zones 15 and beyond would be represented as Zone 15 in the current ticketing zone field, and some other places (that is, currently unused/reserved bits in the relevant data structure) would be used as an "extended" zone number.

[@katieorbell3656]

this is so weird to hear you talk about all my local stations ahahhah

[@enlathestrange]

I used to to live in Billericay on the Southend Vic-Liv St line. This system would be fantastic for them as they’re one stop away from Oyster and Cross Rail! Was such a pain to have to jump off to tap on.

[@MrMorris1687]

So let's all discuss: Is 'Oysterable' a new word?

[@OldUKAds]

It is now

[@frankhooper7871]

Once a word has been used, and its meaning understood, then it is a valid word - whether or not it has yet found its way into a dictionary.

[@polchraine]

So, apparently, Oyster cards will not be usable from West Drayton to Reading for te reasons you explain. However, TfL have said that 60+ Freedom Passes will be valid on the route provided TfL services are used. My 60+ card clearly states Oyster - so is it actually an Oyster card or is is a disguised Contactless? Come 15th December, I will be trying it out to see how well it works (or not).

[@walale12]

So long as I'll be able to link my railcard to my contactless card (like I can with my Oyster) this shouldn't be too much of an issue. Hopefully.

[@antonszandorlavey1797]

I work on the barriers for greater anglia at liverpool Street. I've been there 6 years. They change all these things without telling us, so when people ask me i haven't got a clue and look like an idiot.

[@HebrewsElevenTwentyFive]

This was very informative. Thanks, Geoff! 🤙🏾

[@gwnlars_8306]

In the netherlands . Oyster is called "OV-Chipcard" which is valid in the whole country . If you check in and out of course . Sometimes a paper ticket is cheaper 🤔

[@cleanycloth]

Now we just need it for Stansted. It would make sense!

[@seeitsayitdoggo]

I 100% agree.

[@wintrwunderland]

Oh, and Southend while we're at it.

[@cleanycloth]

Ali365Dash Yes, Southend too! Especially considering Stansted and (somehow) Southend are both considered London airports 😛

[@jordangipson1125]

Geoff, I love your pedantic bit about the symbol placement haha

[@raphaelnikolaus0486]

The zoning, as the TfL Map itself, definitely needs a (Beck style) review soon, if not very soon. Why would you need so many zones? Here in NRW, Germany, the fare zones are according to City/District boundaries, for example. Or in Berlin - sizewise comparable to London - they make do with three zones (A, B, C). I think there should be something linked to the Greater London Boundary; everything outside that is just one special fare. Maybe you could also consider the M25 as a fare zone boundary. (Just a few ideas thrown out there.) The Greater London Boundary, imho, should also be the 'boundary' of what is shown on the Tube Map (to be called TfL rail services Diagram or something). Everything beyond that (most important stations at least) should just be noted as a list on the edge of the "Map" (compare Stingemore's Map and early versions of Beck's Maps).

[@raphaelnikolaus0486]

Regarding the design of the "Contactless only" zoning on (current versions of) the Tube Map, I would really go for something like in the Great Northern Network Map/Diagram, as shown at 4:43) - that really looks neat. But I also have to say that the "Special Tram Zone" on the current Tube Maps is farely irritating and the opposite of helpful, especially as you're trying to make out what Zone for example East Croydon station is in.

[@joermnyc]

I think they originally tried to map the zones as a pseudo distance based fare... but it’s gotten out of hand with all the new services using Oyster (14-15 zones is the definition of out of hand... until he said 15, I always thought there were only 9 zones!).

[@Graviton1066]

They should scrap the zones completely to encourage more people to use the system for longer distance journeys.

[@norbitonflyer5625]

@@Graviton1066 Can you imagine how high the fare would have to be for that to work? No-one would use the Tube to travel within Zone 1 - a taxi would be cheaper.

[@raphaelnikolaus0486]

@@joermnyc Okay, distance also makes sense in a way. But especially in that case (is it travelling distance or time?) such a system *needs* an update every now and then. It just seems common sense to me. (Greetings/Shoutout to Ken Garland who used this sentence, although a bit differently, in the BBC documentary about Henry Beck.)