The Five-Fold Ministry in Action | Rediscover Bethel

[@Bethel_Online]

Watch the full episode here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ioekh5l6arSGobc To see the entire series go to: kzbin.info/aero/PLUaRlPOu98p0clsG0U0jGoU91tl5q3-sK

[@leonardkim831]

Thank you Pastor Kris V! God bless you 77 fold!

[@mortgagewithjacob]

Apostles are similar to Pioneers, moving the message of the Gospel forward

[@HPP2023]

Ephesians 2:20 (same book being used to defend the 5-fold ministry) tells us that the church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets”. It can be argued, then, that the foundation of the church has already been laid and that the role of the prophets and apostles to reach the unity spoken about in Ephesians 4 was to lay the foundation. When God’s revelation was given to us through the apostles and prophets those roles (at least in the New Testament sense) were no longer needed. Furthermore, the way the apostles and prophets seem to have functioned within the New Testament is different from what we often see in these churches. Paul referred to himself as the last apostle (1 Corinthians 15:8). He makes this statement about 20 - 30 years after he encounters Christ. It seems logical that very early in the church these titles seemed to have disappeared. Those of elder/bishop/overseer/shepherd seemed to take precedence. Those in the early church, who functioned similarly to the apostles, made a sharp distinction between themselves and the apostles. Revelation 21:14 also speaks about the obvious significance of the 12 Apostles and how they are "set apart". Yes, Jesus referred to others outside of the 12 as "apostles", but this seems to be because of their direct contact with Christ Himself. "Apostle" also means "sent/messenger" in the Greek as opposed to a title. I know in the 5-fold model the word "favoritism" has been used regarding God showing favoritism to these modern-day apostles and prophets, which contradicts Acts10:34. Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:17 that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. The Prophets were the mouthpiece of God, leading us to Christ (the Fulfillment) and the Apostles took Christ-crucified message out among the people (1 Corinthains 1:18) The foundation has been laid and cannot be laid again - please read 1 Corinthains 3:11 and Isaiah 28:16 So hopefully in this critique you will see why these offices are not only gone today, but no longer needed. There is One intercessor between man and God and His name is Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). I want to note, I believe the Bible speaks about all the gifts being for today (read 1 Corinthians), but I think we have a history of misusing and abusing the scriptures in a way that can be dangerous and fleshly, which cause a misuse and abuse of the gifts. Prophecy is not a foretelling/psychic type reading, always speaking of peace and goodness, but a forthtelling of God's word to edify, and may not always be the most pleasant to hear. It also should be weighed and tested (1 John 4:1-6). The gift of apostleship is that of a messenger or "apostilon" in the Greek. which are what we see with the other individuals that were sent out in the first century church (lower case "a"). Five-fold ministry puts man in a place of supposed divine appointed authority, rather than a humble servant leader (pastor). Pastoral offices have been misused and abused for sure, but that does not remove their place in now being the offices that build up the body and equip the saints, using the foundation laid by the Apostles and Prophets in accordance with God's holy and finished word (Deuteronomy 12:32, Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:6, Revelation 22:18-19).

[@PaulWashington..]

1 Corinthians 15:8 Last of all those whom Paul(to include himself)was speaking of.

[@keltonelias7783]

Bingo. This is one issue in a long list of extremely poor hermeneutics and unbiblical teachings that come out of Bethel

[@auxiliarylens3876]

That doesn't indicate he's the "last apostle". It means he was the last of the apostles that Jesus saw @@PaulWashington..

[@tonybeckham5463]

My thoughts as well. Great response.

[@Rhythm_Renegades]

NOTICE HOW JESUS NEVER PICKED A WOMAN TO BE AN APOSTLE. OR A PREACHER. BUT SOME PEOPLE ARE MANIPULATING THE BIBLE TO LIE ABOUT SUCH THINGS. - MAY THE APOSTLE KATHRYN KRICK REPLACE JESUS AND SAVE US ALL. FOR SHE IS SO POWERFUL TO BE ANOINTED WITH GOD IN THESE DAYS... WE DONT EVEN NEED JESUS BECAUSE WE HAVE KATHRYN KRICK ON OUR SIDE MOVING THE SPIRITS IN US. EVEN THOUGH THE BIBLE SAYS AFTER THE APOSTLES ALL DIED AND ONLY APOSTLES ARE THOSE WHO SAW JESUS IN PERSON, WE NOW CAN PUT OUR LIVES IN KATS HANDS. SHE IS THE ONLY FEMALE APOSTLE EVER THAT WILL HELP US TO LIVE OUR LIVES BETTER THEN JESUS EVER COULD. SHE IS OUR GOD NOW. LETS SEND MORE MONEY TO FUND HER AND SEE HER SOW HER BLESSINGS WITH HER SEEDS... THE MORE MONEY SHE CAN HAVE THE MORE POWERFUL SHE AND OUR MINISTRY CAN MOVE. LETS ALL THE SPIRITS TAKE OVER KATHRYIN KRICK AND HELP HER TO BRING ABOUT THE LAST DAYS.

[@giaphdministrynetworktvjoa8836]

Excellent Teaching you are in the Word, though many don't believe, it is rebellion to read the word, it is so clear yet they refuse to honour God,s word. They refuse to honor that Scripture. Unbelievable.

[@sherilyngreenlawm.a.9910]

Thank you for addressing this pertinent topic!

[@tiagonocaminho1]

This theme is relevant for organic church comprehension, cause in the institucional church we have other basis....

[@michaelcarterjamaica]

Good stuff

[@mbryan4964]

Yes, the 12 stones placed on the Jordan River bed at the command of Joshua by a man from each tribe while it was parted and backed up to Adam, and the 12 stones placed on the shore of the Jordan, the side of milk and honey, once closed after they crossed. 12 is a reminder to all children to point the way.

[@alexisbarreto4932]

No 12 are the 12 apostles who under Jesus initiated the church...thats that no more apostles

[@PaulWashington..]

@@alexisbarreto4932 There are more than 12 recorded back in the early church and many more called by the Lord Jesus Himself today.

[@lightoftheworld5455]

@@PaulWashington..No, there are only 12 apostles. The ones that were with him on earth. No other apostle counts even in acts. Read revelation 2:2

[@PaulWashington..]

@@lightoftheworld5455 Paul and many more. What about revelation 2:2?

[@PaulWashington..]

@@lightoftheworld5455 Ephesians 4:7-13 New King James Version Spiritual Gifts 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this, “He ascended”-what does it mean but that He also [a]first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [b]edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; The Lord Jesus Himself after He ascended called and calls His ministers. It never changed.

[@ianbell2931]

I I’m glad Bethel is responding to differing points of view. Kris, those who believe in a cessation of prophets sometimes appeal to Zechariah 13…“It shall come to pass that if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who begot him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, because you have spoken lies in the name of the Lord.’ And his father and mother who begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesies. “And it shall be in that day that every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies; they will not wear a robe of coarse hair to deceive. But he will say, ‘I am no prophet, I am a farmer; for a man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.’” ‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭13:3-5‬ ‭ How would you respond? These same cessationists also bring up Daniel 9:24 ““Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, TO SEAL BOTH VISION AND PROPHET, and to anoint a most holy place.” ‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:24‬ ‭ Some in this camp take a past-fulfillment view of revelation, and add this verse to their case for cessation of prophecy: “but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:7‬ ‭ Thoughts?

[@davidsantillan]

I'm not Kris but..didn't Jesus say there was no greater prophet than John the baptist? Now John in timeline is in the New Testament post Zachariah and Daniel. So, the question would be..was Jesus wrong? (Luke 7:28)

[@ianbell2931]

@@davidsantillan those who take the viewpoint I’ve mentioned believe that the cessation of prophecy took place later in the first century, approximately 40 years after the death of Christ.

[@davidsantillan]

​@@ianbell2931 yea I get that, and I saw someone else commented saying that the foundation was laid already so there shouldn't be. But that would mean (exaggerating) we would all have to go back to being Catholics so all pre-Luther right? If the work was done and foundation laid then we should just stick to that foundation? I'd say we just honor people and let God decide. If we don't agree with a ministry, move on and just keep loving Jesus.

[@tomallsop1948]

@@davidsantillan - there's a difference between 'New Testament' and 'new covenant' - John the Baptist was still operating within the old covenant, despite it being recorded in the New Testament. In fact, if the job of the prophets was to proclaim the truth of who Jesus is, then John the Baptist is the last of the old testament prophets surely?

[@davidsantillan]

@@tomallsop1948 wouldn’t John writing Revelations be prophesy? Anyways someone else’s ministry shouldn’t affect our faith, devotion nor salvation. If we don’t agree with someone’s ministry we can just move on to whomever we do agree with and be fine. Like Jesus told his disciples if they aren’t against us then they are for us.

[@scottspeig]

If you take a cessationist viewpoint, you would expect more Apostles in Acts than Pastor-Teachers, as the foundation of the church was built on the Apostles & Prophets. It is now run with Pastor-Teachers caring for the flock teaching the Apostles' writings to the church... As for the female Apostle, that is a debated verse whether Junia or Junius, male or female, Apostle or well regarded by the Apostles...

[@PepeLeFunk]

Calvin called Luther “a distinguished apostle of Christ”.

[@Jonathanhdz16]

Not in the same way in the fivefold ministry

[@jeffgarner3178]

Timothy was also an evangelist 2 Timothy 4:5

[@jasonmillwood2893]

This is so good

[@frang8750]

Why does the Assembly of God, do away with Apostles and Prophets? The local Assembly pastor agrees they are gone like you said. If it is scripture why is that?

[@ucarouen]

I believe it is because of the cessationist doctrine which was created during the Reformation that says the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the offices of prophet and apostle died when one of two things occured. 1) When the original 12 apostles died, or 2) When the Bible was compiled around ~360AD.

[@JesusmySalvation]

Because they are wolves in sheep's clothing. Lol it pretty evident these guys follow after their own lusts, deceiving and being deceived.

[@shan3671]

Hi, I am an AG pastor. To give a very brief answer, the Assemblies of God does recognize ministry gifts of apostles and prophets. However, we do not assign these as titles because there are no biblical instructions for appointing apostles and prophets.

[@frang8750]

Thank you all for answering. WAR Eagle if you ever have time can you give me a long version answer, I really am interested. Secondly, if you read Kenneth E Hagin book on the gifts of the Holy spirit, completely scriptural you will be enlightened. I can give you my email if interested. Thank you.

[@Jonathanhdz16]

They didn’t do away with them. They believe in the gifts like any other charismatic. But fivefold ministry is a very dangerous doctrine being used today.

[@giaphdministrynetworktvjoa8836]

If there are false prophets then there must be true prophets.what about Agabus who came to The Apostle Paul in Acts. Chpt 21:10 ,11.

[@lightoftheworld5455]

What do you do with Revelation 2:2?? God himself said that he tests his people with false prophets(in the law) maybe deuteronomy. Then christ says many false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders in so much to deceive even the elect….

[@nikkithomas6576]

My son says Paul said he was the last Apostle

[@KAyLA_K]

I hope you’re having a good day😊👍 Is there a good place to ask a question to y’all?

[@giaphdministrynetworktvjoa8836]

There were more Apostles and prophets mentioned, in the new testament

[@giaphdministrynetworktvjoa8836]

1st Corinthians. 12 :28 The word Pastor is not even mentioned in this passage of scripture at all.

[@mick9371]

Cessation has its foundation in pride I have not met a cesstionist who can speak in tongues or one who has experienced healing ….. they are sprouted a powerless gospel

[@theschrocks2405]

Depends on your definition of “gospel”.

[@mick9371]

@@theschrocks2405 good point Brad …. Was poor wording on my behalf….cessationism IMO disempowers the holy spirt, and turns Christianity into a religion rather than a relationship, like the pharsies of old

[@scottspeig]

I find cessationism is actually grounded not in pride, but the failure of modern "apostles" to heal on demand. Also, Cessationism is not that the Holy Spirit no longer operates, but rather than the Holy Spirit ordinarily works within Providence rather than Miraculous, and the miraculous is grounded in Christ, not the Christian

[@mick9371]

@@scottspeig maybe….but Iam yet to find a cessationist who can speak in tongues or who has an encounter with the holy spirt People make up doctrines due to their unbelief. When the disciples couldn’t heal, Jesus never said “ that’s because father wants to be glorified through their sickness “ …. making excuses for our unbelief is not biblical

[@dubyag4124]

@@mick9371 Cessationists believe the opposite actually: we agree with Paul and believe the simple gospel is the power unto salvation (Rom 1:16) - we fully trust God to use His word to save people, not signs and wonders.

[@firemedic143A]

1 Corinthians 15:7-8 says that Paul was the last one of the apostles. Furthermore, the qualifications for an apostle, in the sense that the Scriptures use the word “apostle” are 1-they had to be chosen by Jesus (Matthew 10:1, Acts 1:22-26. 2- verified by the other apostles Acts 1:22-26, 2 Peter 3:15-16. 3- they had to be an eyewitness to the resurrected Lord Jesus Acts 1:22, 1 Corinthians 15:7-8. To say that Bill is in an apostle because the generic version means messenger is to say that he is also an angel because that is also the generic version of the word angel. Bill does not meet the qualifications to be an apostle as the scripture defines the apostles.

[@rowanmarc]

I’ll give you a Bible verse - Ephesians 2:20 says that the Church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.” The foundation has been laid, you don’t lay it again, you then build the structure on top of it. The apostles and prophets of the New Testament have given us everything we need to know. Chris Valloton, you are definitely NOT a prophet, you predicted Trump would win a second term in office, which clearly did not happen. You are a false prophet according to the test of Scripture (Deuteronomy 18:21-22). True prophets NEVER prophesied falsely, that is the key difference between Biblical prophets and today’s pseudo-prophets

[@Osmien118]

​@@pinkypie8829 amen x1000

[@PepeLeFunk]

Could you guys be characterized as “postmillennial”? This is not a criticism nor am I being facetious.

[@shellyjensen609]

Hey Pepe, while they have a definite post-millennial lean (especially Kris), I don’t believe that Bethel has an official position on that. I saw Dan give a teaching once in which he described each position, gave scriptures to support them all, and gave the history of each. Then, he basically said, “Whichever of these positions you believe in, make sure that your belief system leaves hope for revival and reformation.” Bill Johnson once quipped that when Jesus returns, he will probably surprise everyone. So I think they lean post-millennial but recognize that there’s definite room for disagreement about it, even within their own church. -Andrew

[@PepeLeFunk]

@@shellyjensen609 Thanks for the clarification.

[@JesusmySalvation]

Just remember if the devil your father hates God and u are created in God's imagine, just imagine what will become your reality for eternity. Then shall many false prophets arise and deceive many.

[@JesusmySalvation]

@@pinkypie8829 this guy and this church - is of the devil and not of God. U should come out of this it will shallow u up if it hasn't already.