THE FIXED, THE BANNED, AND THE LIMITED! Banlist Followup

[@rinp9666]

Another MtG card that was banned before release was Cranial Ram in Pauper, which a lot of people find more notable as it's in a competitive 60 card format!

[@pupintheturdiii]

Metazoo is boo boo

[@tsucube4377]

@@pupintheturdiii ??? this comment and video have nothing to do with metazoo

[@retronymph]

It's definitely interesting in a vacuum but when viewed in its full context, it's not really so different from banning Lutri, aside from the difference you noted that it's in competitive 60 card rather than commander. It would have obviously been extremely overrepresented in the format, and since a couple of large pauper tournaments were happening immediately post mh3, they made the decision to not even try with it in favor of allowing there to be a more diverse metagame.

[@alejoclosa7705]

cases like those give some insight on how WotC desings cards: Cards are balanced around the format they are expect to be played, common cards are tipicaly desined to be played in Draft and Sealed formats while Pauper is barely recogniced by WotC so they don't have problems with banning a random common if it's a problem. Cards meant for Commander also tend to cause problems in eternal formats

[@minervadetauro7646]

That's what makes the Pauper Format Panel so based, they knew it would be problematic as it's a sidegrade of an already banned card so they didn't hesitate with the ban Hammer, unlike the main NOTC team who is going to let Nadu ruin Modren forever remaining legal until MH4 releases

[@EdBurke37]

Wizards actually came to the Commander Rules Committee and showed them Lutri before it was even previewed because they knew it was going to be a problem in Commander and wanted to give them a chance to see it and prepare for it. WotC knew it was going to be banned before it was revealed because the RC told them it would.

[@williamsimkulet7832]

Setting aside the concept of Companions; the idea that they knew a card would be broken in their most popular format and decided to... print it anyway... was unbelievable. I actually like the idea of Companions in theory, it's not too far off from a Wishboard which is itself an interesting way to use the sideboard. (Lessons... clunky though they may have been, also explore this territory.) When reviewing MKM, I actually remarked that I wish they'd done "Secret Companions" - face down companions in your sideboard. I envisioned them as a tight cycle of 10 2/2s for two different hybrid mana - {C/2}{D/2} some relevant-to-limited-archetype abilities at (U). Once per game your opponent could name the 2 colors (this way they don't need to memorize 10 cards) and if they got it right, you wouldn't be able to play it (and maybe they'd draw a card?) while if they guessed wrong, maybe it'd go to your hand? Of course you could swap out your Secret Companion for games 2 and 3, so there's some real risk and reward involved here. But, more importantly, it'd be something you could guess at... in the Detective themed subset. A free 5 mana 2/2 isn't going to warp legacy or modern if the abilities cost mana to use, but they'd add a lot of tension to limited as you'd have to make a decision about when to guess and when to pay the 3 to get your overcosted 8th card. Having a 5 mana 2/2 always in your opening hand is kind of risky, but giving your opponent 2 turns to guess your 2 colors in your 2 colored format would be interesting since anyone could play anyone of secret companions in limited, given they can pay CD, C2, D2, or 4 to cast them.)

[@Glowmus]

@@williamsimkulet7832 Wizards has spent the last 5 years bending over backwards for the commander crowd to the detriment of the rest of the game. The commander crowd can just take the L on this one.

[@karenwest6350]

@@williamsimkulet7832 The fact they wanted to print a card that very clearly would not fit into Commander, their current darling and cash cow, is one of the more integrity-filled decisions WOTC has made as of late. Considering that they basically always print with Commander in mind, sometimes at the direct cost of everyone else's play experience (*Stickers* for example), I'm glad they decided to print something that flagrantly couldn't fly in EDH.

[@williamsimkulet7832]

@@karenwest6350 Well, they did force Companion to be playable in commander... but I get what you're saying. Lutri's design made it "oops, all Lutri" in commander; any deck with Izzet had access to it w/o a drawback, powering up the combination. Ironically, I don't think FIRE design thinks "oops, all X" is a design problem, though; it's FINE if every deck runs MH3 cards, right? :(

[@williamsimkulet7832]

@@Glowmus The only possible excuse for this would be if the card was good in standard or other formats, and it's not. Frankly Companion's [deck conditions] made for a bad game design anyway; after you play an opponent w/ Morphs, they need to reveal their morphs to you to prove they didn't cheat. Did anyone ever reveal their deck to you after match 1 to prove they could run their non Yorion card? No? Oops!

[@TheTicatic10]

Something about the limited list in ygo is that because of all the searching, putting a card to 1 usually doesnt proclude the card if its part of an archetype, but WILL force the deck to change its playstyle to incorporate it.

[@CatManThree]

Also makes certain cards getting banished or something more significant. Theres also stuff like Gateway of the Six where it being at one retroactively fixes the cards being abused in ways that werent intended.

[@ashheilborn]

Lutri was ONLY banned in Commander. And the only reason it was banned is because it does not give any choice for inclusion in any deck that's capable of having it. If there were more options, and having a companion was an expected part of the game, or if they just declared that Companion would not function in Commander (because the format has no sideboard), Lutri would not have required a ban. It's not about power level. The card isn't even *that* powerful. The problem is that the thing that's supposed to make it challenging to build around is just automatically accomplished by the Commander format. Lutri isn't broken, Companion is broken. Yorion was another companion that didn't quite work in commander. Its requirement contradicts the Commander rules, requiring a deck that's 20 cards larger than the minimum requirement for the format. Unfortunately in Commander, the minimum is also the maximum. So, you can't include Yorion as a companion, ever. Though, it can go in the deck. If the Commander rules committee allowed for more specific restrictions based on the card itself, Lutri would be able to come off the ban list immediately, and merely be Banned as Companion. But they stopped doing that quite a while ago, because having multiple ban rules is slightly more confusing, and they didn't want to impose that on a casual format. And like... I guess? But it's still irritating, because it's no different from a Dual-Caster Mage in its effect, and mana value, and that card isn't banned at all. And it's adorable!

[@otterfire4712]

I think everyone could see why Lutri would be banned as a companion, same goes for banned as commander.

[@autobotstarscream765]

Having that one extra layer of Banned as Commander would be nice to beef up a list that isn't going to have the other sections such as Limited because _everything_ is Limited in Singleton. 😂

[@ceulgai2817]

Just use a Lutri as a proxy for Dual-Caster, then.

[@TheDan14]

as someone who plays for fun and at locals, apocalymon at 1 feels great. you see it every 2 or 3 games, it gives you significant advantage, but if your opponent deals with it, it doesn't come right back and just keep milling them out

[@ab2aasd]

Goyo Guardian was actually unbanned for 3 years before it was errata'd in 2017

[@gnockgnock6965]

Yeah, even though it was never actually a problem card in 2017 or even 2014.

[@DoctorFalchion]

It's a case of miscommunication between the TCG and OCG. Japan had NOT unbanned it, and didn't bother to take a look at the West and say "oh the card is fine there we should just unban it" before making an errata.

[@WangerZ3291]

wasn't that in the OCG?

[@ravdeepbagri1313]

I really dislike errata that act as a nerf to a card. Bucky is a real stinker because that is just a completely different card now. Just ban it, no game does rotation anymore so when the powercreep catches up to the card you can unban it and have a hype moment of the card returning with it's memorable mechanical identity.

[@thefallenmonk605]

Ravensburger stated they didn't want a banned can to still be sold in packs as they get into the Asian and Australian market. Bucky is going to be updated when the set comes out next year.

[@milofranklin5386]

I don't mind minor nerf errata, as long as they're, again, minor. One of the examples that Kohdok brought up in this video, Firewall Dragon, was one of the most powerful cards when it was printed in Yugioh. The nerf errata did two things, but first I want to highlight what the card did. The original version of Firewall Dragon reads: "Once while face-up on the field (Quick Effect): You can target monsters on the field and/or GY up to the number of monsters co-linked to this card; return them to the hand. If a monster this card points to is destroyed by battle or sent to the GY: You can Special Summon 1 monster from your hand." Because in Yugioh, cards can be used as many times as you want unless the card says otherwise, and Firewall did not say that its second effect could only be used once per turn, this lead to infinite combos in which you could send your own cards to the graveyard in order to summon anything from your hand. This led to one of the most centralized formats in the game's history. The errata changed two lines on the card. It now reads: "Once while face-up on the field (Quick Effect): You can target monsters on the field and/or GY up to the number of monsters co-linked to this card; return them to the hand. If a monster this card points to is destroyed by battle or sent to the GY: You can Special Summon 1 Cyberse monster from your hand. You can only use each effect of "Firewall Dragon" once per turn." The first change was restricting the monster type that can be summoned from any monster in the game, to only "Cyberse" monsters. (There's still quite a few options to use, but now it vastly limits what deck types would be using it as a combo piece/extender/endboard piece.) The second was to locking both effects on the card to a "hard once-per-turn" with that last line of text. Even if you had a second Firewall Dragon on field, you can't use either effect again because you've used that effect of a card named "Firewall Dragon". I agree that changing the card so drastically as with Bucky is a problem, since that doesn't serve even its intended purpose anymore. All of my previous paragraphs aside, I think the best way to do nerfed versions of cards is what Elestrals just did, where they banned a card and immediately added a nerfed version of it to their next set instead of just errata'ing it. I do think that's the best approach.

[@autobotstarscream765]

​@@milofranklin5386Basically what Yu-Gi-Oh! does with Pots. 😂

[@Salvo-3172]

Alternatively, they could just ban the card and make a replacement.

[@moxopal675]

Another card with a nerf that turned out to be a buff was mana drain. Mind you the card was made when mana burn was a thing

[@jarzz3601]

same with braid of fire

[@MrZer093]

The mana from Braid of Fire goes away in the upkeep so you can only use instant speed stuff anyways so it isn’t that big an upgrade overall. Too few usecases to make it worth.

[@ShadowEclipex]

Floodborn weren't new to Rise of the Floodborn, but they were extremely expanded upon in it.

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

Yugioh has 2 types of Errates. 1.) Errates which are meant to nerf the card, such as Firewall Dragon or Goyo Guardian. While they are still kind of the same effect its, adding on extra restrictions/costs to make it more balanced, in addition to the passage of time making it worse. 2.) Errates which are meant to align older card texts into modern PSCT standards. Yugioh cards are written almost like a coding language where the nuances are in the junctions and semi-colins. This was implemented in 2014 and allows for players to really understand all the minuter of how the card operates with every other effect. You can still find old cards with old text saying things like "Offer Monsters whose total stars equals 8" or "No matter what the situation".

[@Zetact_]

Technically the "2" class of erratas is only something that is in the West, because Upper Deck was ridiculous with how they wrote cards. It's MOSTLY not something that happens with Japanese cards because they adopted the PSCT-style of card writing really early on, like it was something they started doing shortly after the problems caused by Sangan and Last Will not functioning as intended due to the way the cards were written too vaguely. PSCT was, primarily, making the TCG printings of cards start being written in the same manner as they were in the OCG. I believe the OCG has had erratas that, due to cleaning up text to be more understandable, has changed some cards like Necrovalley and Ryko (which is also why their effects changed in the TCG) but for the most part they don't need to deal with PSCT.

[@deregapreyahvattaffdiff]

@@Zetact_ Nah Early OCG was also a mess, many series 1 card effects are writen like a line for anime character to shout it out when play it. Like it have exclamation mark on every atk gain effect. Some effect also writen so ambiguosly that eveyone have to guess how it work like the first printing Last will, some story even claims that someone believed it affect the entire turn not just the next monster hit the GY. Also OCG have name eratta too but because of the original print using a wrong kanji. Not because anything gameplay related

[@CatManThree]

2 is basically every errata from other card games.

[@Ms666slayer]

@@deregapreyahvattaffdiff In the past Last Will actually lasted the whole turn and it was a key component of the first ever Tier 0 yugioh deck Exodia FTK, that deck with no erratas on the cards actually can compete with stuff like Snake Eye, because once it starts the combo is impossible to stop, because on that time Sangan and Witch worked anytime the monster went to grave and not only from field.

[@ecbrd8478]

not quite a "banning" per se but i think the fastest i've ever seen a card land on a banlist was when they put tearlament into yugioh master duel. i think every good tearlament card was at 1 or 2 copies day zero

[@Liliana_the_ghost_cat]

Same happened to Kashtira to a small extent

[@GroundThing]

Just one thing, when you mention WotC being probably upset that the Commander Rules Committee banned Lutri before it was even released, they actually weren't. They knew it would be banned, likely as soon as the card was finalized. It was still worth it to them to print, because, as their thinking went, companion was intended as a primarily Standard focused mechanic; the deckbuilding restrictions and relative high cost of most of them would limit their impacts on eternal formats (not to say that they expected companions to be entirely absent, but likely their overall percentage of the metagame would settle down to a relatively healthy number). As such, banning one companion for the one format that its restriction made not a restriction wasn't seen as a problem (look at Yorion, for another example: that wasn't banned by the Rules Committee, but simply doesn't work as a companion in commander, due to the rules of the format, and they felt equally fine printing it). Obviously Companion wound up being way more powerful than anticipated, but it doesn't change the fact that WotC knew Lutri would be banned in Commander; it wasn't a shock, or even unwanted.

[@tipulsar85]

So the story for Lutri's ban starts at R&D, according to the C/EDH advisory board. A member of the play design team asked, "Hey, we have a companion whose only restriction is to build singleton. Is that a problem?"

[@jarzz3601]

we got another example of wotc making huge mistakes and having to fix them in the eternal legal cards from unfinity wotc admitted the cards were only supposed to see play in commander but they were being used in competitive formats which caused all sorts of problems with you being at a competitive disadvantage if you didn't bring a sticker deck or attraction deck depending on the format. RIP mind goblin

[@dudono1744]

I don't think an early ban would really hurt Lorcana. Most TCGs have absolutely bonkers cards in their first sets.

[@Zanji1234]

so... which card do you see as "broken" in Lorcana after Bucky got nerfed?

[@dudono1744]

@@Zanji1234 I don't know Lorcana very well, I just know that older TCGs tend to have op cards in the first sets.

[@Zanji1234]

@@dudono1744 tbh only Bucky was "the" issue especially with the Ward Keyword. But compared to other tcgs the current card pool seems to be fair (ok we have to wait until it might break)

[@cameronmcpherson2677]

Bucky was ok at best on release as the only floodborns worth playing for the most part were 5 cost or higher. Ursula's return introduced Diablo which is one of the strongest cards in the game and could be played turn 2 along side Bucky allowing you to get the discard earlier (even then Bucky wasn't as much a problem as people say). Ravensburger have stated that the reason for the Bucky nerf is that they are printing the earlier sets for more languages and don't want to be printing a banned card in those sets.

[@Zanji1234]

it was still funny though that (considering how "bad" this card might be) it did't won the Bochum Challenge ... it was again Amethyst ruby

[@cool_scatter]

Lutri's ban was not a problem with card design. If anything, the glut of cards we get now that are explicitly designed for Commander are more of a problem. Lutri's companion downside is actually a pretty big one in most other Magic formats, but as a singleton format Commander just automatically fulfills it in every deck. It's not a commentary on the card being overpowered or poorly designed or anything like that.

[@KGKSkull]

Kohdok, if you ever do another video on redakai, may I suggest you compare how it teaches players to how Yugioh taught its players in the tutorials of its world championship games

[@PlushPilla]

I'll talk a bit about Pokémon. If by "Legacy" format you mean Expanded (BLW-on), it has it's own ban list. They just recently banned a Duskull card that made a VERY consistent donk deck. Bans in the Standard format are very rare because no effect is too strong to break the game (Lysandre's Trump Card is an exception). If what you are thinking about "Legacy" is the Eternal format (do not confuse it to Unlimited, it has no bans*), it has it's own community based banlist and rules because TPC will never support anything pre-BLW. (The game soft-rebooted at the launch of BLW.) * There are some cards that are just unplayable like the jumbo cards and Ancient Mew. Also there was a format called Legacy but it kinda died with the shutdown of PTCGO. Please note this is what I understand at the moment. Ok?

[@Felazhar]

What hit the nail in the coffin for me when i was thinking about giving up force of will was the reflect/refrain errata. They changed all the effects on the front side and did small changes to the backside because it was too consistent of a commander in aggro strategies. Bonus it was "colorless" so every deck could play it

[@joshuaduck4139]

The best example of an Errata in Yugioh is Cipher Soldier, aka Kinetic Soldier. It has been renamed due to archetype card effects, its attribute was changed to light then changed back to earth, and its effect was changed as well to be more descriptive which i assume nerfed it a tiny bit. It had 5 Errata reprints, but Necrovalley had 7 errata reprints. credit to "Top 10 Cards With The Most Erratas in YuGiOh" by TheDuelLogs that i watched a long time ago and remembered.

[@Zetact_]

Yu-Gi-Oh has a classification of erratas beyond something just being abusable, it's uncommon but there are instances where some new card is reliant on an old card getting an errata to be released. When the cards from "Waking the Dragons" arc were being printed, one of the monsters requires using Crush Card Virus, a card that would probably still be pretty broken if it were legal with its old effect. Since it wouldn't make sense to just not release that specific monster alongside the rest of the anime cards, nor would it really make sense to use a different virus card as the material, it was decided to errata Crush Card to let it be brought back. While I generally think that I prefer making a new version of a card over potentially ruining its legacy with an errata, due to Yugioh's constant stream of support for older strategies, sometimes making an errata is the best thing that can be done for the deck, especially if the deck flavor-wise doesn't make sense getting a retrain. Like the Vrains character Revolver had a gimmick of using old, powerful Trap cards in a lot of his duels. If Mirror Force were still good enough to be banned it'd be kinda weird - giving him a retrain of Mirror Force wouldn't really "work" since the whole point is him to use OLD Trap cards. It isn't really the case with Imperial Order since the errata was long before Revolver used it in the anime but if the two were closer together it would have made sense that Konami decided, "Well if Revolver is planned to use Imperial Order we should probably nerf it, so it can be reprinted."

[@Zanji1234]

ok... i know you don't like Lorcana... but "Floodborn" isn't a new "Type" or so it was already in Set one. Every Character is either Story-, Flood- or Dreamborn (depending on the way the character is depicted on the card). Bucky didn't "Destroy" the meta in fact it really didn't win any Lorcana Challenges (these were won by Ruby Amethyst or blue Items) Even Bochum it wasn't "Dominating" and "Destroying" the game it was part of the Meta (with aprox 20 % of it i read online). But yeah they saw that this card became problematic when the next Set came with a cheap Floodborn Character (Diablo) since most "playable" ones were cost 5 or higher. and... Lorcana has "Blockers" they are called Bodyguards and now decks get pushed that are actually using the challenges between characters to get lore

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

Also limiting a card to hit consistence should also consider all the ways it can be searched. Instant Fusion is a "Fusion" card which has lots of support around it, including being somewhat searchable (all be it with a bit of a cost). Right now the card is fine because there aren't any decks in the format which can abuse it. Either you just want a body with a specific statline onboard or you want Millennium-Eyes to protect you from handtraps. My point is: if there ever was an Instant Fusion FTK, it would be a problem, despite it being limited.

[@moxopal675]

Honestly if I were to place a deck for the creation of the hard once per turns it would have to be wind ups (could also be inzektors) the deck designed around the idea that all their cards being soft once per turns

[@dudono1744]

It was probably multiple decks. If soft once per turn are a problem once, it's not that worrying. If it keeps happening, then yeah you have a big problem.

[@abyssal113]

@@dudono1744 Yeah. Hard Once Per Turns exist in YGO since "Gather your Mind" from 2004. The main reason most cards from 2013 and forward have at least 1 HOPT is because combo decks with infinite loops kept popping up over and over as Konami experimented with Extenders

[@moxopal675]

@@abyssal113 tbf old yugioh was wild like a soft once per duel effect

[@HamTheCat7087]

Yugioh had a card that was banned before its release in the marik deck. It stayed banned until it was changed to a once per turn effect. The continuous spell that let you play trap right after they were set.

[@Squid-King]

With Lorcana, it reminds me of a lot of the problems that hearthstone has, in that theres a VERY big lack of player agency. In a recent tournament, of at least what counts as one nowadays, there have been a number of decks that just outright kill you from hand, at maximum hp. How do you beat this? By getting to your combo or outpacing your opponent long before they establish that combo, which is possible to achieve from I believe turn 6 and onward. Not exactly the healthiest game design, especially if it creates a cycle where control and midrange archetypes pretty much become extinct on the regular because they are just not fast enough to win.

[@supercomputer276]

The Yu-Gi-Oh card that came to my mind when ones that were unbanned when errata'd was mentioned was Ring of Destruction. Dealing damage to both players (equal to a targeted then destroyed monster's ATK) simultaneously caused frequent-enough tied games, which slow tournaments down. The errata had the damage explicitly hit the user before the opponent, and iirc couldn't be used to kill the opponent (the target's ATK had to be lower than the opponent's LP).

[@ReissTube]

I would like to know more about your general critiques of Lorcana as a TCG now that it’s a year old. It feels like a very fun TCG that’s relatively accessible for newer players to TCGs in general, but the simplicity is also a nice refresh for card players that also enjoy interaction focused systems like in MtG, Yugioh, etc The main things I heard in the video were that you have issues with sets 3 and 4 (and likely 5) sitting on shelves in LGSs and the issues around Bucky in general. Would love to hear your thoughts

[@GunbladeKnight]

What you have to understand about Lutri is that as a companion, it could be your 101st card in your 100 card deck. And because the format requires you to meet the companion clause, unless you are playing one of two specific strategies, any blue/red deck can easily add Lutri for no opportunity cost.

[@Joker22593]

Except, according to the rules committee version of the commander rules, commander has no sideboard and at official rules committee commander tournaments, companion does not function. Then the rules committee made an exception saying that companion does function, because they are basically a propaganda/advertising arm of WOTC and do whatever they are told to do to make WOTC more money. Finally, and this is very insteresting, the official WOTC comprehensive rules of MTG state that there is a sideboard in the commander format, and that outside of tournaments, "outside of the game" cards reference your whole collection and not just your sideboard. So companion would have worked without this exception unless people state before the game starts they they are playing RC commander and not the official version from WOTC. It also would have worked in official tournaments too, regardless of the RC's opinions, so they didn't need to make an exception.

[@CatManThree]

​@@Joker22593the RCs full of shit anyway.

[@TehKorwinMikke]

@@CatManThree the RC refuses to ban cards, it is indeed a joke.

[@CatManThree]

@@TehKorwinMikke Its not just that. The "banlist" is considered by the RC as more of a suggestion than a law. They also ban things for questionable reasons. Additionally, any interview with an RC member usually has them discuss commander entirely from the viewpoint of playing the game with a consistent group of people rather than randos at an LGS. They generally give the impression that they view and promote commander as something you only really play with a group of friends casually rather than casually with random people at a commander night, which is what most people do.

[@TehKorwinMikke]

@@CatManThree I wonder if the RC even plays normal Commander. the only game with RC that I saw, was on Tolarian Community College, and they were playing with a cardpool before WotC's first official Commander products.

[@UnderTheSkin13]

Magic: *Bans cards for balance and limits OP in eternal formats to keep games from being broken, fails.* Yugioh: *Makes broken cards on purpose to sell packs then bans them so not too many players quit before the next Worlds.* Pokémon: "Hey, see this little star next to the Pokémon's name? Isn't it neat?"

[@Joker22593]

MTG refuses to ban almost any card that is still being printed and sold in boosters currently being distributed. It's a transparent trend that really hurts the game and lines their own pockets short term.

[@CatManThree]

Magic refuses to ban anything unless they are absolutely forced to though. Its the exact opposite situation. Also the konami loop is more waiting to see if it doesn the numbers in the OCG and then banning or limiting it in the TCG before before a YCS as well as jacking up its rarity in TCG packs.

[@autobotstarscream765]

Also Pokémon: "We printed bullshit on cardboard called ADP and we don't care because you'll buy Pokémon cards anyway and we're going to rotate it out of existence anyway."

[@jellewijckmans4836]

Bucky was annoying but fine for the most part when originally released. The problem with bucky is that they kept releasing really good floodborn cards so you could just get rid of all of your opponents cards while doing really good stuff. Bucky was always going to be a problem at some point but if they just hadn't printed diablo in the next set they probably could have pretended it was fine a while longer.

[@thefallenmonk605]

and us try hards could deal with it in a competitive space. The limiting of design space and the Unfun play patterns is why Bucky has to go.

[@ReadingRulesDallas]

So glad to hear of your game plans!

[@antonykun9940]

9:53 they actually recently banned a duskull card because it tutors out the new self nuke dusclops and allow for a really consistent FTK deck in Expanded

[@otterfire4712]

I think Dragon Ball Super Card Game had an interesting history of erratas and bans. One of the earliest erratas was Mecha Frieza, going from being able to make use of his permanent at any time to only on the opponent's turn, killing the leader in competitive. Then they make a reworked version of the leader that turned out to be too good that they banned it, coinciding with SS3 Blue Goku leader which they banned the first one, reworked the leader and banned the rework. Super Shenron was a dominant leader that died overnight after its errata. Then you had text errors where editors and writers messed up on card text and required day 0 erratas confirming intended text. There was a Green Gohan leader that was initially ass, that they reworked into a new card which became banned in Bo1 formats due to how destructive the leader was. Then there are cards that worked as silver bullets for ramp cards that were blanket banned to make way for decks that would manipulate their resource pool without ramping. The game was pretty fun for a while but the game became hyper warped, turning into a pseudo Yu-Gi-Oh game.

[@zetekpl]

In FaB there also was a card that was banned before a set its in releases. Many players remember the 'we made a mistake' article that announced it

[@kaidencr]

I appreciate the discussion of this. As someone doing GMTK Game Jam right now I would 100% be interested in a TCG-type game jam (paper or digital).

[@Willingmess]

Pretty much all the bans in digimon limit the cards to 1. The only exception is Mega Digimon Fusion, which was banned to 0 for reading too much as “I win the game” whenever you drew it. Oh yeah, and we did get like a two week window where you could play full power apocalymon if I remember correctly. It was fun, mostly cause I was playing the other insanely broken deck with a ban announcement right around/before release: Anubismon.

[@Petrico94]

For some games I can respect restricted as a way to keep any card available for decks but still cut off the top power levels, but if a combo is busted when it happens or you get enough tutors or draw mechanics it's still a win condition. Best of 3 fixes some bad draws for sure but it really should not be the ultimate way to make the game fun. Tech cards can make strategies more bearable but shouldn't be required to keep things in line. Errata shouldn't be to fix a card, only clarify intended effects with updated legal text or new keywords, Companion is one of the few moments a whole mechanic got changed because the couple that were viable were dominating certain formats or had no real downside and became a free card in hand (commander shoved into every other format, even commander had to quick ban that otter because any RU deck would just hang onto it). Especially in printed formats, Bucky changing into a whole new card gets problematic among the fans. Printing a new card would be much better and you're going to have bans eventually, heck make a promo of Bucky players can get in exchange, bans are always messy but the sooner you identify the problem the better it'll go over.

[@otakugamerxFGC]

Pokemon used to support their expanded format and did official tournaments with it but a couple of years ago they just stop running expanded tournaments. They have ban a good amount of cards exclusively in expanded and most was banned way after they was rotated out of standard. They have recently just ban a card in expanded

[@four-en-tee]

The idea that Lorcana is having major issues is crazy to me as a Yugioh player because a few bit of our top talent has been jumping ship to Lorcana and One Piece due to prizing issues.

[@Zanji1234]

he is completly "overreacting" kinda. Yeah they nerfed bucky making discard now kinda obsolete (but still the deck didn't win nor top the Bochum Lorcana challenge btw that was violet / red deck) it doesn't have "major" issues. He just doesn't like the card game :D

[@CatManThree]

A lot of the yugioh top talent comes off as entitled and completely blind to situations with other card games though. The classic yugioh players dont know anything about any card gae other than yugioh thing.

[@joplin4434]

@@CatManThree this is completely asinine. Yugioh has had like 3 tier 0 formats in the past year and a half, the top deck costs about 2 modern decks or 20 pokemon tier 1 decks and the prize for winning an event is a 20 dollar promo and a 30 dollar plastic playmat. It has been non stop powercreep since POTE, currently you play go fish with 20 handtraps or floodgate turbo and if you look at the ocg things are going to get worse before they get any better as snakes get yet another buff because 1 year as the top deck is not enough. Hope you like Maxx 3!

[@CatManThree]

@@joplin4434 Comparing Yugioh to pokemon in terms of costs is silly because pokemon is famous for being cheap, especially compared to YGO and Magic. Magic prices can be particularly absurd depending on the format, and magic as a whole is notoriously more expensive in its singles. Modern specifically is consistently way WAY worse than Yugioh. Current meta deck in modern is over 900 bucks in part because wizards hasnt banned Nadu. And thats not even the highest. The One Ring is particularly infamous for being insanely busted and absurdly expensive, making meta decks that run it over 1k. That asside, I am not ignoring the fact that yugioh has had three tier zero metas in a row and how this is konami blatantly abusing it. What meant to refer to was that how a lot of what the pro players "leaving" the game are complaining about is entitled and oblivious. Theres other examples like the complaints about cash prizes, as said prizes are prizes not a revenue. Youre not paid to be there. Theres also the prestige compaints, where despite them its not as though its much different other card games. You arent a household name unless youre a legendary champion of old and/or a repeated champion like Jessie Cotton or LSV. And even then youre only really known in circles for that card game.

[@CatManThree]

​@@joplin4434 KZbin deleted my reply for some reason lol Pricing is absolutely not a yugioh specific problem. Pokemon is famously very cheap, especially compared two both magic and yugioh. Magic singles are notoriously expensive for any TCG, particularly for modern. Most of the best decks in modern are for quite a while now are consistently around or even higher than the prices yugioh endures. Some decks reach over the 1k mark due to notoriously expensive and busted cards like the one ring. That asside, I did not mean to imply there arent massive problems right now. D shifter, there being three tier zero metas very close to one another, konami blatantly underprinting the best cards in the TCG after they do well in the OCG, etc... However a lot of the complaints from comp players "quitting" are totally oblivious and misguided at best and stupidly entitled at worst. Prize money, for example, is far from a major issue with the game right now. Its not as thought its a revenue youre paid for as a "pro". Theres also the prestige complaints, as if theres much more prestige than any other TCG asside from maybe magic. But the prestige of magic champs isnt much different from yugioh at this point, only legends of old and repeated champions are well known. And only well known within the sphere of the game's playerbase.

[@Njzeo]

Crush card virus had a wild errata

[@DRAPION54]

In Yugioh the only cards I remember being banned before release was Temple of Kings and maybe Mystical Beast Serket was banned as well (they both came out in the same structure deck) and I belive Sixth sense was banned on release too.

[@Ms666slayer]

Mystical Beast Serket was never banned, and Sixth Sense was released at limited status not banned, it was banned immediately on the next banlist that was around 2 months after the release of the card.

[@thefallenmonk605]

to add i think your letting your I Hate Disney because Disney come out in Lorcana.

[@Liliana_the_ghost_cat]

For real

[@jkattack2640]

Lutri was actually banned by wizards. They knew the design didn't work in commander and asked them to remove it. Still a baffling decision but not in the way you make it out

[@Jessalakasam]

Actually only one card from Pokemon's expanded format was banned in Standard, that being Lysandre's Trump Card. Pokemon very rarely bans anything in standard

[@doublej209]

I love the thumbnail

[@pyredynasty]

In Canadian Highlander they have a points system. The most powerful cards have points and your deck can only have 10 points. Black Lotus is 7 points for example. Honestly I think Companion shouldn't even work in Commander the same way wish effects don't work.

[@CatManThree]

Wish effects technically work in commander its just everyone rule 0s it out. Official ruling by wizards themselves is that the sideboard rule only applies im a tournament setting.

[@pyredynasty]

@@CatManThree You've got ot backwards. People rule zero it in. Rule 10 specifically prohibits it.

[@CatManThree]

@@pyredynasty Oh, I was viewing it from the perspective of the actual rulings. I didnt know the RC banned wish effects. Thats just silly.

[@Njzeo]

This video aged WELL

[@clairbeeguitar]

Lorcana seems like they want their cake and to eat it too. And much of that is probably mandated by execs. They want the bix box store crowd but they also want giant payout tournmanents. They want a multiplayer format out of the box. They want to print exciting broken cards but also want a balanced format and also want every card to be legal so Timmy who shows up to locals with 5 boosters shuffled together doesn't feel bad. Ravensburger needs to commit to something. And 2 game match is dumb. Commit to Bo1 or make your rounds long enough for Bo3

[@CatManThree]

The game hasnt been out long enough to know they wont do rotation. Magic didnt start rotation for several sets

[@lucasmello9435]

Hi Kohdok, would love a video about fan formats like sealed and pokemon' GLC!

[@underrage4202]

Just Bolt The Bird.At least they should restrict him

[@crystaladams5742]

I would like to see a video about a toy based game instead of cards :)

[@drearydoll6305]

I guess you re no longer gonna talk about the dbs cardgame. The dark broly leader errata along with all the first dark broly battle cards basically killed the deck.

[@TY3_MUSIC]

That squirrel card would do well in tap n

[@IncandescentCrowvus]

Bucky could have been better errata’d Effect only applies when exerted, boom problem solved

[@kagemushashien8394]

Oddjob...

[@hyoroemongaming569]

Auto caption say "ban NATO" describing Nadu

[@copperfield42]

14:37 so, they choose the ygo errata way...

[@evilagram]

Fighting game players don't criticize people for picking top tiers. We recognize that power is power, and there's no such thing as cheap moves.

[@Kohdok]

Bruh. Even I remember when "Items Off, Fox Only, Final Destination" was a meme making fun of how stagnant the scene had become.

[@evilagram]

@@Kohdok I hope you realize that IN THE ACTUAL SCENE people loved Fox and felt like he was the most fair character to fight against. That meme was coming from people who didn't play competitively.

[@evilagram]

C'mon, you're not trying to knowledge check me of all people on Smash Bros Melee. I've won locals before. I used to be an admin for the largest Facebook group in the scene. C'mon!

[@jkattack2640]

In vintage, not legacy, a lot of the most powerful cards mtg has ever played are restricted, not banned because the point of vintage is "no banned cards" (except the racist ones and other stuff that damages the integrity of the game itself) Legacy is the same card pool with regular bans.

[@moxopal675]

@kodhok please does a video on the new trump trading cards hes putting out, thank you

[@moxopal675]

Based on that opener, yugioh players were living up to their 1 meme and not reading?

[@rinp9666]

The Yugioh players were the ones who were reading and corrected him in the comments of that last video

[@CatManThree]

Yugioh has far more memes than that but, that one in particular is a meme for a reason. Especially in paper.

[@ShardBugs]

Ban Hammer!

[@markchang2964]

Instant fusion. 😁😁

[@el8901]

dude fiurwall dragon was erreta

[@RukiHyena]

8:30

[@lamMeTV]

NGL with how unbeatable Pyro and Tearlaments are you can probably unban stuff like elinquent duo and dragon rulers

[@TheCardTrooper]

Tearlaments have been nerfed into the ground. And Dragon Rulers have been powercrept for years now.

[@copperfield42]

the dragon rulers are all limited in the tcg and semi in the ocg, also they are powercrept to oblivion...

[@xolotltolox7626]

No, anyone that thinks handrip can come back needs to go take a hike

[@Liliana_the_ghost_cat]

What are you even talking about? Dragon Rulers are already unbanned and Delinquent Duo would only make those decks stronger. Handripping is a terrible mechanic, especially in Yugioh. It should never come back. (Heck sometimes I still get mad when I play against Labyrinth and they rip out my best card at random)

[@alejandrodelatorre2240]

how to say nothing for n minutes: the channel FFS WRITE SCRIPTS

[@pupintheturdiii]

Metazoo sux

[@berzerk130]

man hearing someone I look up to shit all over a game I play and enjoy doesn't feel too great. Makes me feel for the one piece players I was happy to laugh at before

[@odininmeemninido1498]

I empathize with him, I don't enjoy MTG anymore, I liked playing pioneer and pauper but considering recent sets... Yeah...