The FORGOTTEN HENGES of Central Europe: RONDELS | GTTS Podcast

[@sophiehoveman6879]

Growing as the daughter of a game keeper, in deep dark Cornwall (only 20 years ago😅...), We were always hunting for the freezer...also meant our only outgoing for meat was the cost of a bullet/cartridge, (when successful) and far cheaper than a joint of meat from the butcher or supermarket to feed the family and any excess, would go to neighbors/dogs! We would act on any given opportunity. I assume the early hunter/herders, would have made the most of any chance to top up the food supply, with out dipping into their own stock! Today, I don't have a gun licence, but where possible I forage plants and mushrooms, as regularly as possible too...Means I can sell off what home grown goodies I don't need, but still have a good supply of food. I know i'm a tiny minority, but doing it like this just makes perfect sense to me, and I absolutely love it! Plus there's no greater joy than free food!! 😍 Very traditional, very demur! 😅

[@vanzikky]

When I hang up a new bird nesting box I make sure the entrance is facing east, least likely direction for wind blowing in, not really so that the starlings and finches have a solstice observatory ....

[@richardkettering9532]

Ooooo you meanie

[@bright9]

I’ve been focusing on the early Neolithic from the post Anatolian diaspora. This is a great addition to aggregating information about the culmination of this movement to the north.

[@agnieszkamatyaszek2564]

The theory of crossroads is so fascinating. some folklore points to "standing stones" as traveller's welcomed stops.

[@helenamcginty4920]

Again from my time in Ibiza back before party time we all noticed shiny white stones (white quartz?) along sides of the hill paths. One chap coming down the hill after sunset noticed that these caught the moonlight and he could see from quite a distance where the path was. Many of the stones were on corners. An awful lot of stuff can just be useful markers rather than anything mystical.

[@carolfranklin758]

Or both. We have lost track of how the practical and the mystical were blended in earlier times.

[@aidanmacdougall9250]

Wonderful podcast. Although I see no contradiction, I see these as primarily animal enclosures for the village, that also serve as protection for the villagers at times, and are extra fortified during more violent times, but can serve as market places during more peaceful times. The fencing probably changed from sometimes brush scrub, sometimes thick thorn, and during peaceful times wicker, with square posts as technology progressed to make tighter fitting. Downhill entrances would be for drainage and manure clearance, while some may be semi ritualist putting cattle in and out with sunrise and in at sunset. Or away from prevailing winds. Primarily a practical people with a bit of spirituality, much like people today! 🤷‍♂️ 👍🌝

[@JustSpectre]

Amazing! There are about 20 rondels in the area where I live (Hradec Králové region). My tutor for my diploma thesis is great authority on this fascinating archaeological feature and helped to identify number of them using aerial archaeology. I'm so glad to hear you going more in depth on this topic. Also I know one of the authors of the book Big Men or Chiefs personally. Petr Květina was one of lectures at Hradec Králové University. Thanks for letting me know about it, I'm gonna definitely check it out

[@janetmackinnon3411]

The caravanserai idea is very interesting.

[@astridadler6467]

You need a lot of clay to build houses. A community and animals produce a lot of manure, south faced gets the maximum of sun. As a grower i can see a perfect growing space. Thinking marketplace, gathering gives you even more "garbage" all excellent to grow stuff on. As well with ditches and Palisades you create microclimates as you eliminate wind. Don't only think "veg" with growing. It would be a type of foodforest .

[@astridadler6467]

You would need willow structures for animals. Hurdles and shelters

[@deemushroomguy]

Also, if you've ever planted things in circles, you might realize that some plants will be shading- and therefore, stunting others. I wonder if these structures were put together with somewhat mature trees to begin with, for that reason.

[@deemushroomguy]

Alternatively, perhaps they were started from the center and expanded as the trees grew and/or mature. So many questions...

[@astridadler6467]

@@deemushroomguy you plant what gets highest north. shading can be managed by pruning .

[@b0thers0me]

Every time these structures are mentioned, I think about Temple Grandin and her work on livestock handling. Cattle seem to like curves...

[@BinkBenji]

I was also thinking about sheep dips! Although I feel it’s unlikely that sheep dip is the purpose in this case 😂

[@YvonneCullen-v6r]

Im a world citizen grandmother, love your relaxed interesting insights to our world history. Thank you

[@MartinLindnerDigital]

Hi, algorithm! I really did enjoy this.

[@Chris-64832]

I'm so tempted to throw my rambling thoughts in 😂❤

[@ingeleonora-denouden6222]

43:41 Of Course! When I go camping (especially when it isn't Summer, but a colder/wetter season) I want to put my tent there where the early morning sun rays will touch it! Because then it will dry (it's wet from the dew, rain, condensation). So I can pack it later that day and go on with my tour. Or just because that feels much nicer than being damp. Probably those people had reasons why they wanted to catch those sun rays too. As you say: they were living with nature (the cosmos), they were part of nature.

[@ingeleonora-denouden6222]

I like your 'karavanserai' theory Michael!

[@helenamcginty4920]

Re Rupert discussing (at 42:25 ish) east-west xtian churches maybe just being convention brought to mind how small children draw houses. I never saw a house with the door in the middle and 4 windows 2 down 2 up when I was little. No one taught me to draw that unless it was story book pictures. But I believe that even kids who live in high rise flats draw the same house. And faces. I recall my 4 yr old son once staring up at my face and saying, ah! Eyes arent like that. They have a round bit in the middle and..... His next picture of me did indeed have almond shapes with round bits in the middle. Really strange looking compared with standard 4 yr old pictures. I do know that how children draw is used in child development GP visits and by therapists. There are conventions that most follow at different ages. Its fascinating.

[@helenamcginty4920]

I came to my phone to set the timer for kneeding my bread.!

[@vondahartsock-oneil3343]

I saw an old old pic commissioned to be drawn by the Lord of the house..whatever you call them. I think it was Ireland. B/C like everyone says, but this claim is actually true. My husband is of the famous O'neil clan of Ireland. This was actually on that show with Tony Robison sp? Time Team. The pic showed the Castle on the hill, but there were those henges and trenches. The peasants and workers homes were straw thatched looking huts, inside those circular henges, and had that gap in the center. THe IN AND OUT b/c otherwise you gotta climb over the henge. Assuming henge is the circular raised mounds with a gap/entryway. SO I THOUGHT TO MYSELF> ......that's what those are for. They lived inside them. Protection?

[@ingeleonora-denouden6222]

My thought too. And if there are traces of buildings found outside the round structure, that doesn't means people only lived outside of it. It only means that the housing insde was not that well-built (not with poles in the ground that leave traces for archaeologists). If 'wicker' is found, maybe the people lived in huts made of branches and reeds/rushes/whatever.

[@vondahartsock-oneil3343]

@@ingeleonora-denouden6222 Yes! That's exactly what they looked like..the workers homes inside the henge that is. Just looked like straw, reeds etc...not permanent. Seems like they said they were kept apart to help reduce the chance of fire spreading and destroying everything. There were other "buildings" outside the henges, and trenches were assumed for water and waste runoff. Wish I could recall which Time Team show it was. I'm Native American, so..not exactly really familiar with all things across the pond, but...from Google Earth Views of some of our old villages, you can see the same thing. A big circle on the ground with smaller ones inside. One way in and out. Which would have been their homes. Others "buildings" existed outside of that, for other purposes. ALSO...the henges had to be much higher and merely eroded over time. B/C they all appear about similar in height today. At least that's what I'm thinking. Thnx for the reply!

[@napalmholocaust9093]

They've caught it, Subtilis Hengeiform Encephalitis.

[@ThePrehistoryGuys]

🤣

[@caroletomlinson5480]

That’s “henge-ey” form, isn’t it?😂

[@shell91]

Just a thought, what if the larger ones were fortified living areas and the smaller ones were herding camps. When you have even a small herd of grazing animals, you'll have to move them around to different grazing areas, and you need to protect them and yourself as well. As you mentioned, I'm sure cattle rustlers were common. In fact, rustling still goes on today. It's a fairly big business.

[@elizabethmcglothlin5406]

Circles within circles. Oh my

[@grazhopprr]

Without more cross sections of the banks and ditches, one can't make assumptions of uses, and I would say that each of them have different people creating the circles, as much as different houses are created. Can't expect a consistent design back then, as one designer may not move about like a contractor, from village to village. A base concept may be shared, but the end result may be regional, and evolve depending on, as you say, defensive needs, over ritual needs, or combinations of uses. Take each site singularly, along with the village surrounding them. Then compare when the totality is seen.

[@weethree2070]

Thank you! - "Kreisgrabenanlagen" means no more and no less than a circular ditch "arrangement" - "Anlage" can mean pretty much anything, it doesn't even contain the idea of "enclosure". It may have been adopted as archaeological jargon, but in itself, it doesn't signify that much. - I wonder where the word "henge" came from, and always end up at herding animals. "Henging in the cattle" and so on, meaning, confining a group of something... - Do you, Michael and Rupert, have views on this?

[@Lerie2010able]

Another interesting conversation that informs - I really do enjoy these guys ! Multi use civic spaces

[@franknmb2661]

Dear freinds, i live next to Goseck just 6 KM I've been there every summer and winter solstice in the last yaers. We celebret those 2 magic dasy since few years whit a lot peoples there. It's a very impressive experience to bee on this palce full of energy. Specially on such a day BR from Germany

[@helenamcginty4920]

In 1971, when I was young, I found myself living in rural Ibiza with 6 or so young US travellers. They had noticed low round stone structures about 2m across on the hillside. 'Walls' about 15 to 20 cm high with little gaps at regular intervals in the walls. We townies wondered what they were for. ? Meeting places?. Then one of our group came across someone dis assembling his charcoal pit. 😂 He spoke some catalan so asked how it worked. We wondered no more.

[@helenamcginty4920]

Ps rural Spain back then was still almost prehistoric. We cooked in a clay pot just like the ones reconstructed in museums. When the bottom cracked, as they did regularly over the wood fire, we bought another from the local tienda from where we also got our candles and basics.

[@wiretamer5710]

Ditches rock!

[@Andy_Babb]

2:22 I can’t wait for these to come out!!!

[@samfibrofox]

Thanks! Wonderful

[@witty_inventions]

When I was a child in England, we would go picnicking to Stonehenge.

[@helenamcginty4920]

Brilliant. Podcast. I'll listen later when making the bread, washing up etc.

[@TdotTwiFic]

I wonder what the theories are. Mine is a "haha" type defense that is there to trap animals instead of defending against animals. Herd the animals toward the entrance but one or two fall into the ditch and then you caught meals for the village, the entrance is not in a row and the animals can't run full speed all the way through the maze to escape, more animals get caught and can be domesticated or processed for clothes, materials and meals. Its part of the farm because its easier to dig with stones than cut trees into fences with stones. And the I wonder if the entrances are facing the summer and winter solstices or equinoxes which would indicate its the season to plant and harvest. Just ideas. But if I was a hunter and gatherer or a farmer or protecting my family, that is what I would do as I am sure after many generations they wanted to work smarter and not work harder.

[@ingeleonora-denouden6222]

I like this theory too

[@YarrowPressburg]

You would be planting way before the summer solstice. Probably around the spring equinox depending on the micro climate.

[@youlemur]

Finally, I have been waiting for this topic for a couple of years - thanks! (I'm Czech btw)

[@ThePrehistoryGuys]

Hope you enjoyed it!

[@youlemur]

@@ThePrehistoryGuys Yes, thanks a lot for bringing some focus to this very interesting area of our shared prehistory! =) I just felt like I would love to engage in the discussion a couple of times, to give you my own take on the subject - which just proves you're doing this right... :)

[@vitiviti6548]

If rondells only are attached to settlements, it seems like those people needed a place to meet. Living together for sure needs a lot of meeting up and diskussion how to solve certain issues. That would make the size of the rondell related to size of the settlement. And why not round places for that? That is their reallife experience of how to fit in most people in a relatively small space, they did live in round spaces as well. Its a concept of equality, everyone has the same observing sitution within circular structures (if sitting along the walls). The bigger the settlements and their reclaim for land and ressources, there for sure will be need of defending themselves at one point. Is there a relation of depth of ditch and the size of the rondells? Btw, i could offer help in pronouncing Pömmelte 😂

[@ingeleonora-denouden6222]

O, now I know what he said, Pömmelte! I did not understand when he was saying Pohmelta or something like that.

[@elisekuby2009]

I wonder if the fairly modern-day mazes of the British Isles - although they did occur in Italian gardens as well - have their origins in the Rondels? A sort of imprint on genetic memory/consciousness played out in a garden? Lancelot 'Capability' Brown, likely the most famous garden designer of his time, called the ditches around large private parks 'ha-has.' These ditches were designed to keep herds of deer and stray cattle and other animals from entering the park. Apparently, there were no walls or fences necessary to prevent entry; the mere slope of a ditch sent enough messages to the animals.

[@vixtex]

Thanks for the video! Learned something new. Every day is a school day 💯

[@napalmholocaust9093]

A rondel to me is dagger characterized by large round guards and roundel is a church window.

[@ingeleonora-denouden6222]

Its from a German word Rondelle. I found: "Kreisgrabenanlagen, auch Ringgrabenanlagen oder Rondelle genannt", the three words with a capital letter are the three names for the same thing.

[@vulpesinculta3238]

Two thoughts I have: 1. A comparison was made with Christian churches being built with their altars facing the east. There is actually a religious reason for this, which is that the congregation should face the sun during morning mass, as a symbol of the resurrection of Christ. Similarly, traditional Christian burials tend to face the east because it is believed that, like the sun, Christ's second coming- which is when the bodies of the buried will be resurrected and given eternal life - will begin in the east (Matthew 24:27). As such, if you are buried with your head facing east, you will rise from the grave and immediately see Christ's light. 2. I think the 'caravanserai' theory is one of the more plausible out there in general for Neolithic and early Bronze Age constructions. I've had the same thought about stone circles in Britain - that they were akin to market crosses, places where members of different settlements would come seasonally to trade and negotiate over things like marriages, alliances, land boundaries and disputes. Over time, the rulers in charge of these meeting places became wealthier and more powerful than their neighbours and were able to leverage trade ties and workers to build more elaborate monuments to solidify their power and draw in yet more traders and travelers, culminating in demonstrations of power and wealth like Stonehenge, Avebury and Silbury Hill.

[@ingeleonora-denouden6222]

what you describe as 'Christian' in fact is not really Christian, it's something adapted from 'cults'/religions that were there before the church was built there ... You can illustrate it with verses from the Bible, but I think that connection was only made later.

[@cathrinaugusti1052]

There is also in some Denmark, so probably there is a lot more.

[@bknight882]

I know what A rondel is, tourist's must pronouncing ARUNDEL. I hear it at least twice a week 😅😖 Seriously, great channel gent's thank you, been a subscriber since the beginning

[@bknight882]

Miss pronouncing🙄

[@caroletomlinson5480]

Michael & Rupert! Once you finally get to YOUR ideas, that’s where it gets interesting. I dislike the claims for ritual; this assumes too much. Ancient populations (that were expanding an average of 2.5 miles/year in Neolithic Europe) must have been working too hard to spend time sitting, worrying, sacrificing and praying-although these types of things developed (much later, in my view) in agricultural societies living in warm, sunny areas prone to droughts and soil-nutrition depletion (that’s when charlatans claim they can speak to the rain god-if you be sure to give the charlatans money, food and other sacrifices). Just my thoughts. Keep it up!

[@thomasucc]

Hi guys

[@kye51961]

C of E Churches in UK, have a north and south door. The north door is not used anymore, but in the past was used as the entrance for parishioners who are full of sin. When they have taken part in the service, and taken communion of bread /wine, there sins are forgiven and they are cleansed, they then leave through the south door. Churches facing east/ west - previously taken from the Jewish faith, facing the altar was in east, where the Temple of Jerusalem was. Also Jesus 2nd coming is meant to be from the east. The Celts saw direction, with the cold north symbolising the dead, and south, fire and youth. Please have some diagrams on the subject of Rondells in future, thanks. Caro

[@StargazerFS128]

No one can give me a straight forward answer to what the heck a “henge” is, I guess that is as much a mystery as the henges themselves.

[@thesiamcat]

I'm going food storage (based on all my knowledge of rondels, which is, so far, the first half of this video)

[@batoncharge]

I think the place where Stonehenge was originally, with a few other wooden circles that were there, was the place you went to buy a circle 🤔😂, depending on your purse strings, a wooden one or a big stone one 😂monty python style 😂

[@differous01]

"When you look at churches constructed aligned East-West" there's "nothing in the faith" [41:45] apart from Adam (Mankind) being East of Eden. Entering the Judean temple/churches from the East is a symbolic return to the Tree of Life, among the guardian Cherubim (Tolkien's Middle Earth is likewise sundered from Valinor in the West).

[@forestdweller5581]

Not to be confused with 'Rondelle', which is a perforated disc shaped object made of bone from the Magdalenian period generally thought to be part of a spindle.

[@ingeleonora-denouden6222]

A rondelle is just 'something with a flat round shape' (and often with a hole in the middle), anything circular can be called rondelle

[@forestdweller5581]

@@ingeleonora-denouden6222 And often engraved with nice artwork Some have multiple holes as well.😁

[@richardkettering9532]

I really appreciate that you guys go at it using ideas that have to do with sustaining a living ie survival for the walls and well formation but what about this mounting evidence of these hengi (that's plural...my word) in correlation with the stars as in the Orion hypothesis

[@buddavaio]

„100's of Ancient Forts of Unknown Origin Discovered in Poland” kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6GWiI2Hmc-EidEsi=WSelCunuYXo9TBMK

[@buddavaio]

„The Forgotten History of Celtic Poland” kzbin.info/www/bejne/qaHRfIx3Z5yKj8Usi=bfg9zn6DdBL4f7D0

[@markaxworthy2508]

If there wasn't a bank, where did all the spoil from the ditch go?

[@JustSpectre]

One of rarely preserved rondels in Třebechovice (Hradec Králové region) suggests that there were banks and they were on the outside of the ditch

[@vondahartsock-oneil3343]

I wanted to say the Castle workers lived there. The circular henge was down below of course. But why all over? Scientists have proven "collective consciousness". They took monkey from one place and taught them to use tools to get at food easier. Kept it up until they just did it on their own. They wanted to see if they would teach the others to do the same, or if the others watched and picked it up and did the same. Before long, monkeys everywhere were using this tool, troops that never seen each other, nor live near each other etc.....They were saying it lends credence to why pyramids are built all around the world, and similar things are all around the world. I can't provide you the abstract. I just remembered it when you mentioned these circular henges all over the UK and Europe and now we know Amazon and elsewhere. I found it interesting. Just wish I knew where I read that.

[@MorpheusMoon]

love me a good henge

[@Andy_Babb]

I used to hit my rondel on my bike seat all the time

[@CitizenSmith50]

Rondels can be the the circular ends on the grip of a "Rondel Dagger" ! 35:21 minutes into a discussion on archaeology before "ritual" rears its ugly head !

[@100HzJimmi]

For The Al Gore Rhythm ;)

[@judyhawkins6584]

It seems possible that they might have been using these for all sorts of different things, if you're going to put all that work into something why not multiple uses?

[@boba2783]

3 ring circles recognising we are the 3rd planet - the ancients knew their stuff

[@christianwhittaker6718]

Really? 🤦🏼‍♂️

[@joanberkwitz2662]

@@christianwhittaker6718it’s a joke!

[@kelliv2995]

❤

[@Ari-jj9op]

Michael is describing a truck stop in America, lol.

[@alexisdespland4939]

but a roundelis also the tecnical name of the coolicomic round london tube sing.

[@XL-5117]

Surely the aging of the Turkey archeology is more Mesolithic rather than Neolithic being in the order of 11,000 years ago?

[@davidjohnson-pz2df]

Belt and Braces-- To protect WHAT ,, ?????

[@ingeleonora-denouden6222]

to protect what's inside ...

[@spacelemur7955]

I want some of whatever it is you two gigglers were smoking or ingesting before the program. 🤪

[@buddavaio]

„Megaliths - the 5,500 year old story”kzbin.info/www/bejne/navIeJZspLyIqMksi=wBX_rjNGY2YPQHWu

[@Pirrata123]

Pömmelte is in the middle east of Germany 🤗

[@Pirrata123]

Pömmelte is built with the Same purpose Like Stonehenge, its a calender to sign Winter and Summer solstice

[@youlemur]

And I can tell you in the beginning - you will NOT find out what these structures were. :DD Too many people have already dedicated their lives to studying this, and I'm afraid it's bound to stay a mystery, sadly.... We just don't have enough data to build a proper theory on.

[@HeardFromMeFirst]

How do you know they Will not find out ? Let us know where you bought your Crystal Ball.

[@youlemur]

@@HeardFromMeFirst Dude, these structures have been studied for more than a century in these regions and there is only this much you can dig from the ground. I wish I was wrong, but I'm afraid that too much time has passed since their origin (it's a couple of thousands of years earlier than most of the henges in the UK for example and it's in the dog damn center of Europe and not in the outskirts of a fringe island so too much earthworks and cultural landscape everywhere - for starters).

[@stufour]

The point of this was to remind us of henges that are often forgotten - not to solve their mysteries. Indeed they begin by saying that they are not presenting themselves as experts but wanting to bring them to our attention.

[@HeardFromMeFirst]

@youlemur How do you know that they will Not fond out do you think that research finishes when you say it finishes ? Where did you find this Crystal Ball ? I thought Crystal Balls that actually workrd was a myth, Glad i waited 50 years to read your comment, to know that i was wrong all my life ...Dude

[@youlemur]

@@stufour And I appreciate this more than anyone else! Seriously

[@helenamcginty4920]

And I can tell you not to bother reading the thread below. Its one of those silly ones for people who like to argue. Not discuss. Argue. Like after pub closing on a saturday night. 😅

[@austindavies6371]

After the pub is better info lol