The forgotten Irish longbow Part 2

[@ianbruce6515]

I got to thinking. If you are going for a flat bellied bow with stone tools and are not using a vice or shaving horse --the most expeditious method of tillering the belly would be to scrape it with a stone flake. The easiest method to maintain control, while holding the bow with your off hand--would be to hold the stone flake between your thumb and forefinger and draw it along the belly riding your second finger along the edge of the bow to maintain control. Then, end-for-end the bow and scrape along the opposite side of the same limb. Scraping in one direction, the other limb will be held between the knees and braced on the ground. Scraping in the other direction--the other limb will be held under the armpit. There are two advantages to this method, (a) you can use a narrow scraping edge which will allow more force to be applied to the edge, and (b) sliding the scraper like this riding the second finger against the edge of the bow provides excellent control. A side effect of using this method is a slight central ridge on the bow that can be faired off afterwards--or left as a decorative feature. From the point of view of an engineer--bows ought to have flat limbs. Rounded and arched bellies on bow limbs leads to compression stresses being concentrated on the narrow crown of the belly. Yew, and some tropical hardwoods can handle this concentrated compression--but most other woods cannot--or not well. Bows made from other woods like Elm would likely already be made with flat bellies like the Meare Heath and other stone age bows. Now, if you are splitting a stave from a small tree and using one growth ring for the back, your back is going to be crowned. To get the ideal distribution of compression loading on the belly in that case--the belly should be hollowed to match the crown of the back. All this is more work, and unnecessary when using Yew. When using Yew, you can use a narrower stave for a given draw weight, and you do not need to go to extra work to produce a flat or hollow belly. If you are tillering a Yew bow by scraping, you can rotate the stave in your hand and be drawing a flint flake along the crown of the belly, rotating the limb in your hand to take narrow shavings off the rounded belly. Yew is excellent for mass producing War bows, as you can get more narrow staves out of a given diameter of tree and you can also use smaller diameter trees--and the shaping and tillering is easier and less demanding. So, I'm theorizing that the flatter belly with a central ridge is a hold over from the construction of bows from other woods like elm, and/or an attempt to get a better cast out of a yew bow, by shaping the limbs in a manner that would get a better cast out of an Elm or Oak bow. Flat bows, in Neolithic Europe, and elsewhere in the world were much more work to make with stone tools-- particularly for heavy draw weight bows--but were much more efficiently engineered and could be made from a number of different species. Well--that's my two cents worth!

[@ramblingkern]

@@ianbruce6515 very interesting points on the bow materials and definitely something to consider. I will say one of the simplest and most effective bow vices I ever used outdoors was made from a few upright logs and some wooden pegs as shown to me by Jack from living longbows. So there are options to vice things together just not in the modern methods. I have a friend who is a native American bowyer I must ask how he does it traditionally.

[@freejutube]

ok with that... even in stone age, people were making things that seem to us excessively difficult to achieve... making groove in a piece of wood should not have been such a challenge even with only stone/bone tools... but it would still require more time than not doing it, and more skills in order to not ruin the bow and at least keep its performances on the par with simpler bows... so yes... there is still room for showing off by using a bow with decorative useless grooves carved in it 🙂

[@lifesahobby]

Thank you so much for this insight . Fascinating

[@ramblingkern]

@@lifesahobby you are very welcome

[@freejutube]

very interesting ! gives me an idea for the cheapest of composite bows: a strip of harder material would be (not glued at all, but just) prevented from moving up, when the bow is in tension, by the using the hole at the end of the bow: a hole in the strip of the harder material, aligned with the hole in the bow, allows to join the bow and the strip... but that should also require a hole at each end of the bow, which doesn't seem the case for the irish bows you are describing.

[@ramblingkern]

@@freejutube I know it offers so many possibilities but doesn't really conform to any of the ones that we are most used to seeing.

[@nevillesavage2012]

A thought is with the eye hole not centered the stri ngg would favor one side of the bow making for a straight line for the arrow path. Some Native American bows are furrowed only on one side for the string ont the top limb. Making it easier to string the bow quickly but would favor one side of the bow making it easier for the arrow to pass the bow when released

[@ramblingkern]

@@nevillesavage2012 yeah I have seen that alright. I guess with the eyelets you could knot the string in such a way it would do that.

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

We liked a bow

[@ryanbuckley3314]

The eyelet design on the Newtowndonore bow looks like a compromise between quick stringing and split strength of the limb tip. All you would need is a loop to push through the hole to wrap back on the limb tip. If you're going to us a flemish twist, you could save time by having one end prelooped and then stringing your bow in a hurry is a bit easier.

[@ramblingkern]

@@ryanbuckley3314 well said and it is what ime leaning towards when I eventually try get one of these put together

[@IvanIvanoIvanovich]

Thank you for sharing. I have always wondered if the origin of hollow limb bows was sourcing pithy/hollow source material. One of the indigenous bow designs from Central California is a self bow of blue elder (Sambucus nigra) with the pithy center lending to a central belly groove or even a "U" shape cross section depending on the diameter of the stalk or trunk source.

[@ramblingkern]

@@IvanIvanoIvanovich very interesting. I have seen it on many native American flat bows it's a very unusual one to see on a d cross section sort of longbow but obviously there was a reason for it.

[@IvanIvanoIvanovich]

@ Very bizarre indeed. Theoretically it would help with durability and slowing the development of set in the limbs. Of course it could also be purely aesthetic or symbolic, right? Whatever the case, I look forward to seeing what comes next from your channel. Thanks!

[@Stefang-g9x]

The African stringing seems right but i also thought you could put a wood or horn slide lock on one or both ends. This would give you the ability to tighten or loosen the string easily on the go.

[@ramblingkern]

Interesting idea it could possubly work alright.

[@Jhhhf4479]

There are guys who sell high quality Alpine yew in Europe.

[@ramblingkern]

@@Jhhhf4479 I only know of one in Switzerland but he is collection only. There are likely others but I don't know them

[@johnmcloone1214]

I wonder if the bow string being wrapped around the bow and underneath the string acts not only as a way to secure the string on one end of the bow, but also as a silencer for the dreaded "twang" that gives your shot away. i also wonder if the grooves and hollowing of the bow limbs was a way to create symmetry in the bow at full draw, and perhaps to straighten a twist out of the limbs as well.

[@ramblingkern]

@@johnmcloone1214 that is interesting. Definitely something I will have to consider when trying to put these together

[@GaryDellone]

A thought about the belly grooves. Native Americans used blood grooves or lightning grooves on arrows to keep the shaft straighter for a longer period of time. After grooving, fire hardening would set the wood. In a wet climate could the grooves on the belly be used to keep the bow straight? Fire hardening does increase performance as well. Fire hardening has been proven by many bows made by Thad Beckum and Kieth Shannon. This would create a double effect on efficiency? Just something to think about.

[@dougdumbrill7234]

Thanks for the follow up! The grooves, if on the belly might reduce forces of compression and would help if the wood used was prone to fail in compression. I don’t however think that’s a problem with yew.🤔

[@ramblingkern]

@@dougdumbrill7234 yeah I was thinking that would be ideal for certain woods and might make a preference for flatbows then but not here. I think it might simply be a way to showcase access to advanced tools. Just a way to say look what we can do.

[@dougdumbrill7234]

@ I used to teach a class called “Primitive Projectiles” In it the students, limited to a pocket knife as a tool, made a throwing stick, atl atl, David sling, and survival bow and arrows. The first assignment was a simple throwing stick. In every class, completely unbidden, several students would come in with highly decorated throwing sticks, feathers, carving, paints, crayon. I was impressed by how strong the instinct toward “decoration”! Is! PS many decorations hinted at “spiritual” power. Some even detracted from effectiveness! People are interesting creatures! 😁

[@ramblingkern]

@dougdumbrill7234 very well said. I have many archaeologist friends who make the joke that it was ceremonial. Basically the catch all term for we have no idea but clearly it meant something.

[@MasonMorgen]

I wonder if anyone's looked into Bell Beaker archery in Ireland, there would've been bone/jet/jade wrist guards strapped to prevent bruising so the poundage might have been pretty good.

[@kevinroche3334]

Check out the Amesbury archer.