THE FOUR LETTER WORD (...LOUD!!!!) | CUMBRIAN PIPE ORGAN

Visiting the 3 Manual 'Abbott & Smith' Pipe Organ at Kirkby Stephen, Cumbria, UK.
Full Specification & History: www.npor.org.u...
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE, LIKE AND COMMENT - IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED

[@RobertOrgRobert]

The organ was vandalised a couple of times hence the extra wooden fence around the choir & pedal section ! Great video.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thanks for the info! 😊

[@georgeberger5944]

I agree, no 16" on the manuals. Only up to 8'. 16', 32', 64' and a few variants.

[@organisten]

Yes. The 16ft manual stop is useful if you wish to play everything one octave higher (if the organ does not have a coupling to do this, or even if it does). Try it. You can sometimes obtain impressive full organ sounds doing this. And of course, all the other stops will be halved in height and effect.

[@y11971alex]

I think there’s a medieval organ-Halberstadt-that has manual going down to the B below 32’ C. So it can be said to be an old habit to have grave pitches on blockwerks. 😅

[@louisglen1653]

Another nice organ! I agree about putting the 16 foot reed on the pedals or at the very least allow the pedal division to borrow it without being coupled. Thanks!

[@peterw29]

It has been observed that English organs, unlike those built elsewhere in Europe, were designed principally for the purpose of accompanying congregational singing rather than performing organ music. When used for this purpose, the Contra Fagotto and Horn together should create 'roar' rather than mud, and the Swell coupled to the pedals will provide a pedal reed, though I agree that on an organ of this size there should be an independent one as well. Other than that, if you don't like 16' manual stops it is often possible to find a use for them by playing an octave higher. I am particularly intrigued by the Great Bourdon, which sounds very sweet. I wonder how it would sound an octave higher with the Dulciana topping it off. I could spend hours exploring an organ like this - but on a warmer day obviously! Thanks for sharing.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thanks for this! My problem with 16’ manual stops has always been the ‘muddy’ sound they create. Yes, playing an octave higher is an option but generally speaking there are enough 8’ + 4’ to deem this unnecessary. I’d sooner have a powerful pedal section. Just my humble opinion 👍

[@richardharrold9736]

​@@OrganicVisitations that's simply a deficiency of the voicing of the rank in question. If you go and listen to, for example, a Father Willis Great 16' Double Open Diapason, there's a LOT of harmonic development which underpins the entire chorus instead of simply muddying it.

[@richardharrold9736]

@@OrganicVisitations one very different approach to Willis's was that adopted by Walker in the 1890s through to the First World War, at least - where the diapasons are broad in scale, and the 16ft is not a diapason at all, but a wooden open flute. This is the case with their monumental instrument at the Sacred Heart, Wimbledon (which I urge you to visit if ever you're down south!). It really is a great foundational thickener - but as you travel up the compass, it turns into the most gorgeous Waldflöte, and partners perfectly with the 8ft Waldflöte and 4ft Harmonic Flute to form a big flute chorus akin to the 8-4-2 chorus you will find on many Solo divisions. If there is one change I would have made to that organ, it would be to make the independent Pedal 16ft Open Metal (which shares the facade with the largest of the Great Opens) extended up onto the Great, as, although it doesn't have quite the stringiness of a Willis 16ft diapason, it would offer a bit more clarity as a manual double than the Great 16ft open wood. There are also full-length independent Pedal open wood and Trombone ranks all the way down to 32ft CCCC... it's a hell of an organ for only fifty stops. The Full Swell there is electrifying, with a full-length 16ft, 8ft and 4ft high-pressure reed chorus right at the front of the (hugely effective) box, which sits right next to the Great just behind the facade. It's up there with St Paul's Cathedral for the most impactful Full Swell in England.

[@OrganicVisitations]

@@richardharrold9736 Thanks for this!! Just the sort of comment I find useful! I am hoping to do a 'Southern Tour' at some point - I have visited many before (but before my KZbin days) and would very much like to showcase some of them. Many thanks again for this helpful and knowledgable comment 🙂

[@richardharrold9736]

@@OrganicVisitations ah, where did you get to? I could maybe give you a few pointers as to organs you need to see...

[@markbell9973]

Oh man! Make me choose yea or nay between an English full swell based on a 16' reed and a 16' pedal reed for the north Germans and Bach.... Only an insider (kray-organist ha) could inflict such cruel and unusual! Cheers, Mark-across-daPond

[@robinplanchenault8142]

My grand-uncle (brother of grandfather) was an organist who used almost only 16 and 8 foot stops. He was the organist in one of our abbeys here in Belgium. He said that a 16 foot stop is perfect for accompaniment for monks, who sing in a low register. He tried it once with only 8 foot stops, but found that he'd only need 3 stops for the sound of the organ to overtake the singing. And he didn't have that issue with a 16 foot stop.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Interesting - thank you! Monks often sing unaccompanied which sounds stunning. My only issue with 16’ manual stops is the muddy sound they create, at least in my experience. Just my opinion you understand. Always open to suggestions and comments such as this. Thanks again 😊👍🎹

[@jennfierkrueger8302]

A 16' manual stop is usually for making depth in registration, mainly for a large plenum.

[@OrganicVisitations]

But on the manuals?

[@jennfierkrueger8302]

@@OrganicVisitations Yes, It may be seen as either muddy or majestic. In french modal style music, a 16' with a Celeste can be ideal for accompanying a solo

[@user-wq1zl3jz2m]

Very nice organ young man, regards Gerald.

[@shanehall98]

I agree that 16ft reeds need to be on the pedal. I had 16ft reeds at the church I used to play on the swell. I want that jet engine like roar on the pedals!.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Absolutely agree!

[@y11971alex]

@@OrganicVisitationsthe pedal has no reed at least according to the demo; if so that fagotto on swell would belong on pedal 😅

[@paulaustin9634]

@@y11971alex Agree!

[@johnmackey4273]

Great Video! Thanks

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thanks for watching, and please share my channel! 😊

[@danielpape8132]

I can perhaps give some explanation for manual 16' reeds and flues. 1: In baroque literature they are a climax stop to be used after the mixture has been drawn. In romantic literature a 16' flue is used alongside multiple 8' and maybe a 4' to give a symphonic sound as well as a climax. A 16' reed is always used with a Tutti or with the other manual reeds drawn. Give these registrations a try. 2: The sound at the console is not necessarily what is heard in the body of the church. A hooty and overly loud Bourdon or Double Diapason might be far less present in the congregation's ears, and might bring some extra 'gravity' to full organ. All that said, the lack of a 16' reed in the pedal here is baffling. In my opinion, any instrument with 16' stops in the manuals needs at least a 32' flue in the pedal (which this instrument duly does) and a 16' reed that is more powerful than those in the manuals. This is a practice that goes all the way back to the German baroque and continues today.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thank you for those helpful thoughts 👍

[@richardharrold9736]

​@@OrganicVisitationsthe observation about the Pedal department is not necessarily correct. Plenty of Baroque organs had very complete manual flue and reed choruses down to 16ft but no Pedal at all! 32s have always been fairly rare for reasons of size, space and cost.

[@OrganicVisitations]

@@richardharrold9736 Thank you for your helpful comments 😊

[@musicisitall]

you can use every stop you want. there are no rules nowadays.

[@richardharrold9736]

@@musicisitall there may be no hard and fast rules, but there are conventions established through composers' indications, musicological research and sound common sense which most players choose to adhere to. So, unless you want to be Cameron Carpenter (and I don't understand why anyone would), it's best to stick to tried and tested combinations as far as is viable on the instrument you have to play. Above all, use your ears.

[@tristanday3128]

I think having a 16ft reed on the Sw is an old trend. The Forster & Anderews organ at my church has a Doubble Open Diapason and 16ft Double Trumpet on the Sw while the Pd has only a 16ft Violone and Bordon

[@OrganicVisitations]

It must be an old trend. I have never felt any benefit of having 16’ stops on the manuals, although many disagree. Your organ sounds like a good example of when 16’ sw reeds (and flu) SHOULD be on the ped. That’s how you achieve that ‘cathedral rumble’. Just my humble opinion 🙄.

[@richardharrold9736]

​@@OrganicVisitations a 16ft manual reed is absolutely indispensable for almost all Baroque repertoire, and a Swell one is vitally necessary for the Full Swell sound demanded in all English and French romantic repertoire.

[@hanspeterwortman7726]

Good morning! I've subscribed to your channel and liked your video. Firstly, I'd like to say I've struggled with the same issues of how and when to use16' in the manuals. However, I have found a use for them on some occasions. Please note I am not a concert organist; I play hyms for church. So my opinions here are not meant to be contraversial even though they may seem to contradict other comments for this video. It is not my intention to debate these matters. #1) 16' as Solo Stop : Depending on the voicing of the particular stop, a 16' flue can be a lovely solo stop with 8' & 4' soft accompaniment. #2): 16' foot with gap registration: 16' + 4' or even 16' + 2' can be a nic e variation on the 16' solo voice. I find that these combinations can be effective. #3) In the absence of a super coupler: I find that on last verses of hymns, or verses that require a more exciting sound, perhaps you'd like to play up one octave. In that case, draw the 16' stop to fill in the 8' sound that would ordinarily be missing. #4) Coupling to the Pedal: Sometimes you'd find it useful to copule down the 16' from a particular manual to the Pedal. #5) for those not comfortable using the Pedals, like a piano player subsituting for the organist, the left hand can play the bass line and right hand play melody and chords in a separate manual. #6) For organ music other than hymn accompaniment: I find the 16' useful in playing passages where there is an absence of chords, such as the piece you played at the beginning (Prelude & Fugue in D Minor, Bach). There are many passages there that are "Unison" and a 16' would work nicely there. #7) I never use 16' in manuals when leading a congregation. The sound is muddy to my ears, even if it seems ok in a different location in the church. The issue here is that YOU as the organist need to lead the congregation by supplying a clear accompaniment. It is therefore better for you to do so with the sound YOU can hear from the console. That is my experience and opinion. I look forward to more of your videos.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Many thanks for subscribing and for all those helpful points - food for thought! Please share etc and help this channel grow. Thanks again 👍😊

[@hanspeterwortman7726]

@OrganicVisitations I sure will. It would be exciting to see you use one or more of these points in your next demonstration.

[@fluteceleste]

THank you so much for another interesting documentation! Maybe the 16ft in the manual was useful for organists who were not skilled enough to play the pedals, say for hymn playing? so they could play the bass on the GT whilst playing the other voices in the treble (or on the SW)? Cheers from Munich Bavaria.

[@OrganicVisitations]

That sounds logical, but a waste of a great stop for those who do use the pedals. Thank you 🙏

[@TB76Returns]

Great that you got to visit this organ at last! And do you know who is the lady with the dog by any chance? I also wonder if you can try to get to the famous Appleby Town organ at St Lawrence's Church in Appleby, as it is a special organ. I did videos on this organ (the Kirkby Stephen) one on my second channel

[@OrganicVisitations]

It’s a lovely organ, but a bit out of tune…although the church was FREEZING and that won’t have helped! I did play it before many years ago and I’d forgotten how nice it is. Probably shouldn’t name the lady publicly…confidentiality and all that. Thanks for the Appleby suggestion - I’ll look into that 👍

[@davidcraggs3770]

Looking on the NPOR, you forgot to mention that there is a Flautina 2ft on the swell. Personally, I like a 16ft reed in the swell but a Clarion 4ft to make a reed chorus. Perhaps there was not enough room or money to put a Trombone 16ft on the pedal. But for an organ of this size I must agree it is an omission which is a disappointment.

[@OrganicVisitations]

I found a lovely 16ft swell reed on a more recent organ I covered, and I must admit, I loved it! I never thought I’d say that! The addition of a 16ft Trombone on the pedal would be wonderful but I suspect cost is the issue. P.S. Sorry for omitting the 2ft Flautina 👍

[@oludotunjohnshowemimo434]

It would have been better to put the 16 foot bassoon on the pedal, doesn't make any sense to have it on the swell division. Does the organ have any tremulants? Would have been nice to have a Vox Humana on the swell to combine with the tremulant and Vox Celeste.

[@OrganicVisitations]

No tremulants on the organ, but yes, the 16’ SHOULD be in the pedals. Thanks for watching 😊

[@oludotunjohnshowemimo434]

@@OrganicVisitations rare for the organ of its size not to have a tremulant

[@richardharrold9736]

​@@oludotunjohnshowemimo434 a Bassoon is too small scale a reed to be any use on the Pedal, but to underpin Full Swell it is much more useful. A Pedal reed will normally be a Bombarde, Ophicleide or Trombone.

[@oludotunjohnshowemimo434]

@@richardharrold9736 Bombarde is like a 32 foot trumpet/pousane and Ophicleide is like a contrabass saxophone?

[@richardharrold9736]

@@oludotunjohnshowemimo434 Ophicleide in the organ world is a type of Tuba, usually very smooth and dark toned, and mostly found in the Pedal. Bombarde is usually (but not always) a snarlier sort of reed, more upper harmonic development, and like the Ophicleide, can be at anything up to 8ft pitch, but is most commonly found at 32' and 16.

[@musicisitall]

no acoustics = no sound for an organ

[@mg3261]

16 ft bourdon shouldn't be on the great the 16 ft bourdon should be on pedal division with the contra viola contra fagotto should also be on pedal division personally

[@OrganicVisitations]

100%

[@fluteharmonique8]

Why? we have one on our Cathedral organ which is most useful and lots of music calls for a manual double. Just look at a Cavallé-Coll spec for example.

[@OrganicVisitations]

@@fluteharmonique8 There are lots and lots around but my preference, on an organ this size, would be to have the 16’ reed on the pedal. Just my opinion 👍

[@fluteharmonique8]

@@OrganicVisitations ah fair enough. Yes I've seen some odd additions/subtractions on organs in my time.