The Furies - Divine Vengeance or Justice? - Greek - Extra Mythology

[@Linfamy]

Misread the title..

[@troyklein6379]

yup

[@Aceskydive]

I read it "Furries"

[@akhilanganeshkumar9908]

Same

[@thatdude9091]

not me, not at all, I can read perfectly well! Still a bit confused about the part where these furries come, in tho.

[@TacticalAnt420]

Never thought that not having english as my first language would be useful. I didn’t know “furries” until now XD.

[@thevoidlookspretty7079]

“Uses the murder of her daughter as an excuse.” To be fair, that’s a pretty good excuse.

[@GuitarRocker2008]

It's a less valid excuse when in some of the tales Iphigenia actually marries Artemis as her fathers penance instead of being sacrificed to her.

[@BleydXVI]

@@GuitarRocker2008 Why does Artemis accept that as penance? It doesn't really seem like something that she would want

[@thetactician2787]

Pretty terrible actually considering in many of the stories The daughter is alive and well and was later found by her brother Orestes

[@Raximus3000]

@@GuitarRocker2008 Odd way to describe priesthood, lol.

[@Raximus3000]

If he was just her husband yes, he was also the king and killing him with the addition of usurping the throne is basicaly betrayal. So, Orestes did the proper thing.

[@plackt]

Not to confused with “the furries”.

[@puretestosterone2373]

Ha yeah i thought it said furries when i saw it in my recommended 😂

[@jamesflowers1295]

Cleanse with fire

[@chantzfreiheit4874]

So read it as furries

[@sebastianalban4654]

I started out by reading it like that 😂

[@arutka2000]

That is literally the first joke I thought of too!

[@Damien_N]

It sounds like the Furies are an anthropomorphic representation of the guilt that eats into minds of those that have committed those acts

[@coheng1496]

it manifests

[@MickeyMouse-2023]

For those WHO FEEL GUILT. Narcissist and Sociopaths do not FEEL like the rest of us! Unfortunately

[@OriginalCreatorSama]

@@MickeyMouse-2023 I think it's the manifestation of paranoia at getting caught/guilt of doing it/PTSD from what happened. Plus, i would assume that if this is the case it would explain some of the "hero that fought off the furies" stories that occasionally pop up. Those narcissists and sociopaths you mentioned would also be the most likely to fall for the classic Grecian blunder of Hubris so it fits.

[@cfv7461]

Olympian gods: Killing your parents is the worst thing you could possibly do! Titans: say sike right now?

[@Cosmomancer]

Well the olympians didnt KILL their parents, just, uh, permanently imprisoned them in hell...?

[@cfv7461]

@@Cosmomancer you are not dead, dad, you are just permanently not alive. Yeah... I'll visit you on tuesday, some tuesday...

[@fbiuzz]

@@Cosmomancer Depends. According Hesiod, Zeus actually let Kronos go and let him live on a paradise island.

[@edwardmcintosh7952]

so basically they put them in a nursing home, but instead of being named something stereotypical like "Spring Willows" or something it's got a cooler name

[@TheReelMoonman]

Kratos: Hi

[@mahatmagandhiful]

"When the Titan Chronos cut open his father, Uranus--" *_snort, muffled laughter_*

[@juagoguago7961]

Dude, as soon as I heard that line I scrolled down the comment section and this is the first comment I see, not disappointed.

[@marcusbowman5666]

That's some hardcore BDSM right there.

[@tripleA34]

eyyyyyy let's go

[@GeorgeEstregan828]

Furries... 😂

[@skopde]

Really, commander?

[@marcopohl4875]

"Parricide is the worst crime to the gods" also the gods: "I'll pretend I didn't see that"

[@shanedoesyoutube8001]

What Zeus did to his dad who also did to his grandad wasn't technically murder. I highly doubt Hesiod's Theogony explicitly said about both being oofed out of existence. In Ouranos' case, he was either barred away from approaching Gaia ever again or retired to his domain (of sky/space) forever. While Khronos was cast into Tartaros under the vengeful watch of his outcast brothers

[@jamesanderson5465]

Parricide was the worst crime because for the gods because Zeus was destined that he was going to be overthrown by one of his sons. The only thing that Zeus probably feared is what he saw when people killed their parents.

[@conspicuous.8163]

Zagreus included

[@Ravenforce3]

The Law and Order parody got me. Well done.

[@swytchblayd]

That was good, but they missed a chance at a Phoenix Wright nod :c

[@74wf]

@@swytchblayd nice

[@AzureIV]

Some additions to this tale: 1) Apollo's defense was that: like Athena being born from the head of Zeus, only fathers were true biological parents that deserve the most honor and respect. Mothers were basically incubators. As such, Orestes did not commit the crime of killing his true blood parent, but instead honored his blood through vengeance against a murderer. 2) Athena, besides bribing the Erinyes with receiving due honor as "Venerable Ones", basically threatens to use Zeus' thunderbolts on them if they didn't take the deal.

[@mhypersonic]

Specifically making up a rule that killing your parents is terrible really says a lot about the quality of parents in that era

[@guillermoaguadogodoy5068]

I had read the furries🗿

[@troyklein6379]

That's even more terrifying in my opinion

[@abcdef27669]

Well, is Greek Mythology, so...

[@TheGuardDuck]

Same

[@tomekvilmovskiy6547]

yeah, started watching and thought I was fooled somewhere

[@Sovican]

same lol

[@MrBlitzpunk]

The true ending of Hades is when Tisiphone finally able to spell Zagreus name

[@Palerider1337]

You mean it's not spelled M-U-R-D-E-R-E-R ?

[@EvilMoW]

Only took me about 97 runs for that to happen for me. I was so proud of Tisiphone when she said his name!

[@YorkJonhson]

I wish we could get her a pass to hang out at the House of Hades too.

[@Bricriu-gj9dd]

Oh yeah I remember these gals! They helped Athena create the Justice system, right? Edit: YAY I KNOW MY MYTHS!!! Edit 2: YAY MEDUSA MYTH HYPE!!!

[@bigboynow7936]

Good fer you

[@Panda_Roll]

You watch Overly Sarcastic Productions more like. 😄

[@legendarytat8278]

OSP! OSP!

[@Dorrovian]

I'm very interested how they will discuss that Ovid's addition (Poseidon's rape) in context of entire myth...

[@nathanielhellerstein5871]

Super smart of the wisdom goddess to co-opt the craziest ladies so she could play good cop to their bad cop. She could then say, "Deal with me or deal with _them._ "

[@TheMetamorphoses2003]

That Law and Order parody sent me to an orbit

[@erikhellum649]

So, you’re just relaxing there, killing your least favorite parent and all of a sudden; you’re persecuted by the furies. You did not ask for this. You did not chose this. But here you are. Persecuted by the furies

[@Honest_Abe1]

I thought the title was “the furries” And I just noticed that someone else saw the same thing before me, so I’m not alone

[@Rodrigo_Vega]

Yup. Also first read The Furries.

[@arandomhewo7966]

I thought it was only me

[@Lucario1121]

I was about to say that too. I thought it read "furries" and I'm like "That's, that's not Mythology though"

[@dantonwatson3297]

lol same with me but before i came to the comments i could pracically predict already there were other people and i was right

[@Damal.Chelay]

same

[@breloompauncher5593]

Nice subtle touch using the Hades design for the characters kudos to the artist. Personally I like Megera as my favorite. I think Alecto is my favorite designed one and is now how i'm going to think of her when I read Percy Jackson again. Lastly I think Tisiphone has the hardest fight on her own/the lead cause she closes in the arena.

[@AliThaDude]

No dude, Alecto’s the hardes boss fight.

[@dracosfire7247]

"And not everything that looks like a monster is actually a monster" *Dusa shows up* Oh, we're going over THAT version of the story, nice.

[@Raximus3000]

The one that the gorgon sisters are not ommited for cheap drama by a roman?

[@alexanderkarvos6728]

​@@Raximus3000 one year late. but this still age like milk

[@Raximus3000]

@@alexanderkarvos6728 Well it is the truth, no matter what you say or think.

[@stevejakab274]

There are 2 other crimes that result in punishment by the gods: turning down their "affection", or not turning down Zeus' "affection" and having Hera find out about it. You won't be driven mad, but you'll be turned into an animal, or plant, or constellation.

[@studiocrimniko7181]

I love the references to a certain game, and also these videos are great!

[@cfv7461]

God of war, right?

[@studiocrimniko7181]

@@cfv7461 Its actually Hades by Supergiant Games (he actually mentioned in video)

[@reillycurran8508]

Wait...so Aphrodite's a fury? That is simultaneously absurd beyond absurdity and also aggressively on character for her

[@ooccttoo]

Technically not, since she was born from the foam around Uranus' severed penis as it fell in the sea and *not* the blood that spilled from the wound. The name Aphrodite (IIRC) means something along the lines of "risen from foam".

[@apeman9238]

@@ooccttoo what the fuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[@foam3132]

@@apeman9238 Welp, in Hades, a literal mission set by Aphrodite is to f**k one of the furies

[@mewmew8932]

@@foam3132 y'know, checks out

[@Pepe-vh6xx]

Love the Hades character design and references.

[@PramkLuna]

This episode is officially the best one so far with that Law and Order reference

[@robinhahnsopran]

Can we talk about how BRILLIANTLY these furies were designed and drawn?! They're AMAZING.

[@slugtheplugalug]

furries*

[@robinhahnsopran]

@@slugtheplugalug 😂😂😂 Comment definitely improved, thank you!

[@Kevinthelast]

Eugh

[@derrinerrow4369]

I really love how the designs of the furies are based on their appearance from the game Hades.

[@cristaltophat]

4:32 "Several of the gods were eager to witness the Drama." Me: Zeus looks like he's there on Jury Duty.

[@giomorrison9531]

I like these Extra Mythology episodes. It's nice learning a little more about mythology from different cultures.

[@ngw03]

“Because don’t forget, the furies themselves were born of ... the murder of Uranus by his son Cronus.” Last I checked, castration is not the same thing as murder...

[@danielhale1]

There are apparently different versions of the story, but I'm having trouble tracking the variations down because Google is being unhelpful... It might not even be a legit variation, just a misunderstanding or a modern retelling etc.

[@renkoay1266]

From what I remember Kronos not only castrated his father but,also chop him up to little pieces.Kind of overkill.

[@thundahsenshi150]

@@renkoay1266 didn’t the Gods do the same to Cronus?

[@ngw03]

@@renkoay1266 if you have a source for that, I’d be obliged. The only place I can find that version is a couple of random websites that don’t bother to cite any sources, which makes me think that it’s a fairly recent retelling.

[@ngw03]

@@thundahsenshi150 no-they imprisoned him, along with the rest of the Titans, in Tartarus.

[@earnestbrown6524]

A book with a Fury in it that I like is Path of the Fury by David Weber. It has Tisiphone in a SciFi setting long after her sisters are gone and is a weakened drifting spirit. She bonds to a person who's family is killed. And hilarity ensues.

[@FreyaofCerberus]

My personal theory is that the less-well known Goddess Nemesis was a fury that refused to get out of the vengeance business. But got more of an official sanction to keep doing what furies do best and thus became known as the Arbiter of Divine Retribution against those who showed hubris before the gods. Because if there was one thing that would make Greek Gods give a thumbs up to endless torment, it was mortals that were too full of themselves.

[@sukhmanrehal4957]

Love the vids the animation keeps getting better and better

[@JOGA_Wills]

Oof. Just as I bought the season for Cowboy Bebop... See you Space Cowboy

[@bryantiggelaar6775]

If you've read Sandman by Neil Gaiman, you know that the Furies don't always remain the Kindly Ones...

[@Watch-0w1]

They did alot to the point, felt like different character. Begining they help dream but after they plot against him

[@argosgiovanni5988]

Well the comic sandman isn appart of ancient greece mythology so there potrayal of the furies is not canon

[@bryantiggelaar6775]

@@argosgiovanni5988 It's mythology. What exactly is "canon" when it comes to mythology?

[@safaiaryu12]

Loving these Hades Greek mythology videos! My Classics soul is happy.

[@Just_A_Dude]

Cowboy Beebop's opening is certainly one of the three greats, up there with Outlaw Star and Trigun.

[@Dariakll]

1:31 That is very relatable don't worry. Also don't think I didn't notice that they look just like the sisters from Hades. I love it

[@1Kapuchu100]

I find it odd that the Gorgons and the Furies are, effectively, identical in appearance. Both creatures possess the bat-like wings and snake-hair. Seems the only difference is the Gorgons' ability to turn people to stone with a direct gaze.

[@patwheeler7436]

Just gonna point out, Athena's logic for acquittal was based on the "fact" that children are wholly of the Father and the mother contributes nothing. Therefore he wasn't guilty, because his mother wasn't "actually" his parent. Just a nice bit of culture shock for you right there

[@londonmason6129]

Actually that was Apollo not Athena

[@luluviana9602]

“Uses the murder of her daughter as an excuse.” Just my opinion but... that's a unfortunate choise of words. Other than that: LOVE THIS.

[@johng7003]

I kind of love the end of the Furies or Erinyes as they are called in Greek in the play for Orestis of Aeschylus, where these three eventually or basically change from punishable justice bringers to more angelic,calm but still fearful beings that are now being called Eumenides and they are also basically the protectors of Athens. And yes I just realized that the video covered that.

[@Mr_Reaps25]

I love you gave the fury sisters and other gods their Hades design

[@stevenn1940]

Finally, someone else that appreciates a good anime intro. I haven't Watched the series, but I did watch the intro. It does act as a good primer, and shows the tone and many of the characters without spoiling anything. But I would say the promised Neverland's intro is even more brilliant, as it acts as a primer, shows the characters involved, alludes to the themes and general progression of the show without explicit detail (so many shows spoil the whole season in their opening. Infuriating). In short, a minute and a half of brilliant symbolism and music, while not revealing a single shred of information that would undermine the pacing and suspense of the show.

[@shawnheatherly]

Hades alone offers material for a dozen more videos on this series.

[@nicholasrowley947]

Not only is this a fantastic video, you also went the extra mile and made tons of references to 'Hades' (and no, I too did not get stuck on fighting Meg).

[@KensanOni]

In my Masks : A New Generation game, the Eumenides became a pro-bono law firm that worked the justice system in the superhero world. I'm kinda happy about this episode.

[@ZachTheAudioWizard]

As soon as I heard the name of the Three Furies, I just realized that there is a metal song about them, "Paint The Sky With Blood" by Bodom After Midnight.

[@ramshacklealex7772]

I've been watching Cowboy Bebop for the first time lately, so that tie-in has that odd, how-did-you-know feeling to it

[@whydolotwordwhenfewworddot8431]

I thought furies was meaning furry's and I was so concerned with the title as a result.

[@jimlovernumber7373]

Me too

[@troyklein6379]

we all did

[@DarthBiomech]

Furries being the result of a divine vengeance... surprisingly _fits._

[@abcdef27669]

Hermes: "Hey, Boss, someone is committing blood crimes against their own family!" Zeus: "Release the Furries, I mean, the Furies!" Edit: Alecto in this drawing style looks like Undyne, from Undertale.

[@slugtheplugalug]

stop

[@AbsolXGuardian]

3:25 The interesting thing here is that the Greeks did have a concept of children needing to avenge their parent's death. So were Clytemnestra a stranger, it wouldn't even register as regular murder, but rather honorable vengeance. But Orestes kills his own mother, a kinslayer, and becomes a kinslayer himself, breaking the whole system. Although the end of this story explains why the people writing these myths down saw the age of blood fueds as the norm of the past.

[@Juunanagou777]

"There's only one way out.... and it is the painful way." Great "Hades" song and reference.

[@GuitarRocker2008]

One version of the sacrifice to Artemis says that it was framed as his daughter being married and at the last moment before she was sacrificed Artemis stole Iphigenia away and made her the Goddess Hecate. Which when you consider how overtly gay Artemis and Hecate are and the fact their meeting was at Hecate's wedding it really makes it seem like Artemis married her and THAT was the sacrifice not Iphigenia's murder.

[@fernandotrevinocastro1018]

dayum, after all this time, youre going to make me go to nevula for a cownboy bebop video, cheers mate, you did it!

[@guitaristAustin]

That sir is a beautiful laurel you’re wearing. ✌️💜 Thank you EC Fam I love you so much!

[@TheCreepypro]

it was nice to learn about the furies as a guy who knows a lot about greek mythology but never knew about the furies in detail it is good to finally know

[@sonofsocrates9899]

A perfect circle " orestes " taught me about this story. Love the animation

[@jasepoag8930]

"Killing your parents is the worst thing you can do..." GameGrumps has been telling me something VERY different lately.

[@abhcy]

Funny Thing: I was rewatching that episode with Gorgons in American Dragon when I got this notification

[@jhthebrickman]

Hi, ec love the videos.

[@lowtemperaturecivics]

Interestingly, it doesn't actually say anywhere in the Oresteia how many jurors there were, but translations often say 12, and this gets repeated. Based on the context of the story, it's reasonable to guess that the number was at least even, though.

[@popivan428]

how may people read furries instead of furies? well i know more than 0 right now

[@finnishboo4192]

Ye

[@azlaan3443]

ye

[@mrtweak13]

Welp. I finally caved and signed up for CS and Nebula. It was the praise for Cowboy Bebop's opening that did it. And honestly, $15 for a year is a steal. Now to watch ALL THE THINGS.

[@a.d3419]

This helped so much! I have a paper on this later this week 😭🙏 you saved me

[@jonkelley966]

I just want to say the intro is awesome and I watch it all the time

[@VladTevez]

2:12, Nope, Cronus didn't killed his father, he just cut off his genitals...

[@guillermorobustelli2652]

As a person fond with Hellenic mythology, I find this video lacking lot of content regarding the reason of Agamemnon assassination: Agamemnon infuriated Artemis coz he killed a Sacred Deer without her consent and he, instead of apologizing, he scoffed at the goddess from being careless with her exalted creatures. Thus Artemis punished him with no winds to set sail to Ilium (Troy) and scourged the Achaean army with a relentless plague, further delaying their exit. When Agamemnon tasked Calchas to ask how he could repay the offended multi-breasted goddess, he seer was terrified that the One-Who-Runs-In-The-Forests demanded him to sacrifice the thing he hold most dear above it all: her daughter Iphigenia. Agamemnon was like "DUCK OFF; ABSOLUTELY NOT", but Menelaus, Odysseus and Achilles sought to end the plague that were destroying their armed forces and then they tricked poor Iphigenia by promising to marry the Myrmidon leader but instead she was offered in an altar like some helpless lamb. This act left a lasting burning scar deep in Agamemnon’s spirit, where he ended up hating the war he was about to fight, hating Menelaus, Odysseus and, more than ever before, Achilles. Such animosity was the true cause of all the events depicted in the Iliad. His assassination was because Clytemnestra had plenty of grudges against him and his whole family: first, he ordered the murder of her first infant son who had with Tantalus. She was able to keep up with the assassination of his first son and forgive Agamemnon for it, but Iphigenia’s death was the last straw and she sought to end his life as he couldn’t forgive the fact his husband let her die like a sacrificial animal to a goddess because of his stupid childish haughtiness. She killed Agamemnon by snaring him with a cloth net in the bathtub and stabbed him multiple times while Aegisthus was dealing with poor Cassandra, who foresaw her own death. Later they tried to kill both Electra and Orestes, but they failed in their attempt and thus setting up the stage for the drama Sophocles’ “Electra” and, by extent, the Aeschylus’ trilogy “Oresteia”.

[@appelmonkey375]

They forgot to mention that Athena managed to sway the jury by arguing that mothers didn't really exsist.

[@C.V317]

“Athena knows that humans could do better.” Oh Athena, I thought you were the goddess of wisdom, not goddess of childlike naïveté...

[@Raximus3000]

And you are what the god of brainless cynicism?

[@Rule-be6lw]

@@Raximus3000 you need some ice? Also it’s the fool who thinks people can’t change.

[@Raximus3000]

@@Rule-be6lw "Also it’s the fool who thinks people can’t change." I assume from that you agree with the notion that humans can do better. In case you have not notice the original comment does not agree with that. Humans can change and can do better they have proven that it is idiotic to think otherwise.

[@blackjack2526]

@@Raximus3000 I like banana

[@lesteryaytrippy7282]

Oh the love for the Hades game keeps going and it's beautiful 💎💎

[@Hayden82368]

Someone been playing alot of Hades ;) Edit: Video's like this really show how much detail the creator's of Hades put into their game

[@maxs.5112]

I am so glad I took a 2nd and 3rd look at the title. I was wondering for a sec, what the heck this channel was coming too.

[@MultiYogibear]

your version of the orestia is different from the one I'm familar with

[@Ymylock]

Pretty ironic how the greek gods are against killing parents

[@osurpless]

Defense mechanism.

[@talesealog5457]

Loved the Hades game references!

[@paytonwiser1998]

You should cover the Wendigo, it's an Algonquin legend with a pretty good message

[@kuritech]

just got out of Hades yesterday! cant wait to continue

[@lkawsome1711]

I read the title wrong and thought this was about furries.

[@50TNCSA]

i was about to say the same thing

[@loki3618]

Same

[@fulviopontarollo2952]

Also Clytemnestra’s secret lover was Agamemnon’s cousin, Aegisthus and this inserts insto a wider plot of a family (usually called the House of Atreus) committing crimes, getting cursed by the victims, and, because of the effect of those curses which passed unto their descendants as well, committing even more heinous crimes with following additional curses, moat of the time against other members of their own family, until we get to Orestes and the ruin of the whole House after 5 generations from the first cursed crime Fun times all around with these guys

[@adamkampen]

I like how you knew I clicked on this video thinking "Oh I recognize those from Hades!"

[@averyperez9196]

I love this channel

[@tomasprott1930]

Nice reference to "HADES" there

[@BulkBoganOfficial]

Love the close designs to the game Hades. Very nice touch

[@goblinobz]

Ooh, is the next episode about Medusa, Queen of the Gorgons?

[@BohdanF_L]

"Hades" is a great game, everyone should give it a try

[@goatedlogic]

These stories are awesome

[@icysaracen3054]

Been studying a lot of Islamic Hadith and Im coming across a lot of cross mythology when there are descriptions of Angels and jinns (demons)

[@sharilshahed6106]

jinns are more like spirits or "otherkind" than just demons. Closest to demons come from the offsprings of shaitan (I think, correct me on that if you know better).

[@PreveenRodrigo]

In a way, Orestes seems to pretty much mark the start of the concept of separation of church and state. Move justice from religion to determined by court of man. Like, atheist concepts wrapped up in a religion story "justice is a gift from Athena".

[@nightmarefreddle4174]

About not being able to beat the Furies in Hades, I had the same problem. I’ve only beaten Meg once and then never again.

[@_stve_]

Is it just me or does Zeus look amazing!

[@cathuru6841]

Loved the Cowboy Bepop reference!

[@Gearhand]

Wow.. I just realize that when Rick Grimes from the walking dead said: "May my mercy be stronger then my wrath." Although not sure if the quote is entirely correct. It could have been a reference to the tale of the furies.

[@fotisspyropoulos9772]

Small correction the proper translation of order is τάξη and not κόσμος since κόσμος refers to the concept of world or people whereas τάξη refers to the result of a process of organising (by any means, quiet fitting to the ideas accosiated with the furies). But there might be something I am missing in your rendering, big fan by the way.

[@BaphometBibleStudy]

Not gonna lie, at first I thought the title said "The Furries: Divine Vengeance or Justice?" I was mildly disappointed, but still entertained.

[@Ryu_D]

Thank you for the episode.

[@109Rage]

Just pointing out that in the story, Orestes is ultimately acquitted on the basis that matricide isn't as bad as patricide, because women "only really carry the child as a vessel", at which point you remember this story was written by Athenians, who were notorious misogynists to the point that their patron goddess Athena doesn't even have a mother, and is more or less the ancient example of the "perfect cool gurl who agrees feminism is doodoo" that incels imagine (See Vivian James as a modern example).

[@AliciaNyblade]

I'm surprised you didn't bring up how, in the play "The Eumenides" by Aeschylus, Athena's acquittal of Orestes is also attributed to the fact that she supposedly is predisposed to favor men's perspectives: "No mother gave me birth," she says, "And so, in all things except for marriage, wholeheartedly I am for the male and on the father's side." She argues that the death of Orestes' mother was a lesser crime since it was done to avenge the death of Orestes' father, the household's head. I know, a powerful, wise goddess agreeing that patriarchy is the natural order of things and coming to such a conclusion in a play written by a dude, what a shocker!

[@jajajasputin8927]

This explains a lot about Ace Attorney

[@MakriaMicronation]

I read the title as "The furries" and tonight bro was making a video about the horrors or furries💀

[@goodanytimej8688]

So Chronos murdered Uranus, Zeus murdered Chronos, and the biggest crime in zeuses eyes was murdering your parents?..... Zeus should trade names with hypocrites, and spell it that way instead of Hippocrates