The Future of Reptiles Is Hybrids, Here’s Why!

[@ugodelecour9275]

Hi, conservation biologist and reptile keeper here. I personally think hybrid reptiles should never be a thing. You say that we're not maintaining little conservation programs in our terrariums but we actually are. Hybridisation can come with a lot of downsides whether on the animal's health and capacity to produce a healthy offspring or on the opposite side on the potential risks of a hybrid escaping with a boosted fertility. Escaped or abandoned pets that become invasive species are a huge problem worldwide. It can be the downfall of entire genre of species either unable to adapt to the new competition or diluting into the hybrid lineage. And not just in the US where the warm climate is good for most reptiles. I presume you're from western europe and for example, we're dealing there with a huge problem caused by the invasive hybrid green frogs (Pelophylax kl. esculentus) completely absorbing local species like Pelophylax lessonae. We used to have several species and now we only have one : the hybrid. The focal point of hydridisation is that : loss of biodiversity. We, as responsible reptiles keepers, should not mingle with that and use safer practices. Especially in countries critically under regulated like the US. Sorry if my English isn't perfect, I'm not a native English speaker.

[@Janeway1269]

Hi. My education is in biology but only to the Master's Degree. The lien was ecology, evolution and behavior. I am in the USA. I currently work for the US Dept of Agriculture. I hear what you're saying about escapes, but to the speaker's point, the vast majority of hobbyists are creating animals that have no conservation value anyway. When I first started listening to this video, my reaction was that saying hybrids are okay is only encouraging hobbyists to do even worse things than they already are in terms of breeding. But I think his intent is just to be realistic about the people we're dealing with. I'm very glad he's addressing this subject because there are too many people who scream "Conservation" as an excuse to continue keeping and breeding so many species; many of which are or will eventually be in trouble in the wild. My hope is that if hybridization of a few commonly kept species takes off more, it will distract people from going after hard-to-get species that really need to stay in the hands of true conservationists. The fact that he's calling people out on the reality of what is happening, is a good effort. I've been watching the herp hobby for decasdes on and off, and I tired of people's attitudes towards these animals as living jewelry long ago. They aren't just collectibles. They are species with a role in their normal ecosystems. There's a reason that AAZA and worldwide facilities will not work with hobbyists in general. Most hobbyists don't have the same goals, and zoo and conservation facilities don't want their lines touching those hobbyist lines and compromising them. There are so many examples of invasive species of one kind or another, escaping and disrupting ecosystems, that we really need to concentrate on security measures and people letting animals go. If this were managed properly and seriously, invasives would not be an issue and it wouldn't matter what specifically escaped. I do understand the thought of not encouraging people to continue practices that work against conservation. I think we should be pushing to work with whatever hobbyists are willing to cooperate with conservationists, and breed FOR true conservation. Zoos only have so many resources to work with species. And personally I'm tired of morphs being the goal. And I'm very tired of the inbreeding for the sake of the five millionth new color or pattern in a species. Ball pythons are already suffering from neurological issues. The beloved Eastern indigo has health problems from inbreeding. I heard someone talk about Corucia Zebrata, the Giant Solomon Island skink, being of "little value" because they breed too slowly and there are no morphs yet! That is one species that needs people to NOT mess with their lines. But that's happening already because most people didn't track localities enough when they were imported. Also the reference to domestication in this video is tricky. It takes a lot to domesticate an animal truly, and people use that word too freely without understanding what it means. And I DON'T want to see snakes go the way of dog breeds. Dog breeds today suffer tremendously because we don't have natural selective pressures involved with the exception of a few remote areas still breeding landraces the old fashioned way. People are way too involved in breeding for aesthetics.

[@ugodelecour9275]

@Janeway1269 thank you for you message. I think the conclusion to all of this should be that we need more regulations and more funding to do it correctly. Animals should not be used to make a profit

[@ReptilesandResearch]

I get your point and i dont think its something to be taken lightly. However, what is the difference between an animal that is a pure species being released and creating hybrids and causing the problem vs hybrids being released? Someone who is breeding pure animals could also create the same scenario. I would argue its not an arguement against hybrids but rather an arguement against keeping fullstop.

[@quinkana1]

@@Janeway1269 tbf ppl aren't going to breed snake landraces anyway, it'd be bad for everyone involved including the animals lol. I do think breeding for better animals is more important than anything, and it will be hard to convince ppl to do so just because its hard enough to keep ppl from producing bad animals in general, with or without hybridisation. Domestication should be the long term goal as people breed for docility and ease of care already with or without hybridisation, and I think it's a worthwhile goal considering what most ppl want. Maybe we will see a smaller group of conservationists breeding for conservation, but most people can't reach the standards of zoos and probably shouldn't for their wallets. I cannot see people keeping stud books for every reptile they have and outcrossing as much as possible to keep the offspring as healthy as possible. With how different subspecies get redefined as new species I don't see it being easy to do either. It is better to allow people to get pet-morphs for some species complexes and let them do what they want while zoos keep their stud books and sometimes outsource for responsible pet keepers who will breed with the zoos.

[@ugodelecour9275]

@@ReptilesandResearch it's true in deed you're right. I've been keeping reptiles for years but now I can't help but questioning myself about the ethics behind reptile keeping. Where I live in Belgium we have extremely restrictive legislations and I now personally think we should head towards this in the reptile keeping community

[@AndortheGrognard]

I think there is rather a lot to unpack here. First is the question of if an animal can be hybridized at all. If, heaven help us, Tuataras entered the pet trade, obviously they are far too genetically isolated to hybridize with anything that hasn't be extinct since before primates existed. I'm not sure if any other reptile species are that genetically isolated, but I'm pretty sure I'm not crossing a blind snake and a Burmese python. Then there is the question of the conservation value of preserving a line trait or locality. The only three reasons that come to me to maintain that level of 'purity' from a conservation stand point are A) The domestically kept animals are being reintroduced into the wild. This is a thing that happens, but not often. B) The animal is extinct in the wild or so reduced it might as well be, E.G. Amur Leopards. (I hope no one is keeping Amur leopards as pets, but who knows these days?) C) Work is still being done on genotyping the species, and you're working with scientists. Oh, and D) I suppose, when an animal is thought to be extinct but it's discovered that some still live in captivity, E.G: Barbary Lions. That having been said, there is additional value within the pet trade itself some some locality linked characteristics. For example if someone loves Boas and dearly wanted a Boa Constrictor, but had physical limitations that would have made owning a 3 meter long, 20 kg snake hazardous to one or both of them, then something like the Hog Island locality would be ideal as island dwarfism has made them a much more manageable size. In a case like that finding out the hard way that a careless breeder had allowed an outcross with a mainland redtail could easily prove tragic. As to the last point about the inevitability of custom breeding, I think we are clearly already there with the wide variety of morphs available for the most popular domesticated reptiles like ball pythons and bearded dragons. With less common species, which as still regularly imported from the wild, like Amazon Tree Boas, then I think it will be a while, if ever before the domestic line diverges sharply from the wild population. OTOH snakes which exist almost entirely as F1 imports, and fare poorly in captivity like Sunbeams or Dragon snakes, are probably not going to succeed as pets at all until some lucky breeders manage to establish a population which survives captivity, which will likely already start as fairly atypical from the wild gene pool. Not sure where I am going with this, aside from "It's a bit more complex than Ball Pythons are the new poodle." :D

[@G.r.e.g.g.l.e.s]

The phylogeny of Theseus.

[@csalvador2003]

Great info once more Liam. I'm converted. It all makes sense. Nothing is pure so let's keep stronger and healthier reptiles in captivity. Completely eye opener.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Bingo! I got converted too! If you watch the new podcast episode that’s 3 hours you’ll not only be converted but excited!

[@krysiabrowne3605]

Really love this video, it's great to have something out there that actually examines this issue. I honestly wish I had the capital and time to get into properly breeding reptile species that are suitable as pets T=T The only nitpick I have is your use of "hybrid vigour", there is no such thing unfortunately. What people see as hybrid vigour, is in fact just breeders not inbreeding. Snake breeding has gone on long enough now and people are inbreeding without proper controls, that we are starting to see physical, behavioural and health issues crop up within individuals. One day I hope breeding will become more of a luxury hobby and properly planned breeding for the snakes health and well being will appear :)

[@ReptilesandResearch]

@@krysiabrowne3605 thank you, I think logically tackling things rather than accepting dogma is best. In terms of hybrid vigour it’s just heterosis. Big breeding programs realistically would take someone to focus everything on that one thing to do it justice

[@Pearl.Is.Autistic.SU.900]

That’s so true, and it’s also SO annoying to argue with dog breeders over those terms.

[@paulwhite9242]

I'm indifferent to hybrids but the "bad for conservation" thing always makes me roll my eyes. 99.9% of keepers don't keep anything like bloodline records you'd need for conservation purposes. I *am* slightly nervous about how few adult boid hybrids I see relative to the number of babies. I've seen plenty of corn/king/pit mixes of different sorts as adults though x

[@ReptilesandResearch]

yeah like youd think with the amount of obsession there is around purity youd see more registry's

[@ChrisChurch161]

Green iguana in south Florida are a hybrid. The Green Iguana in the pet trade of the 1990s didn’t have the horn that ALL the hybrid have in south Florida. Unfortunately they are still recognized as Green and now banned

[@mrvwbug4423]

In reference to the MBK. They are a Cali king subspecies Lampropeltis Californae Nigrita and prior to extensive captive breeding to select for blacker snakes they often looked like Cali Kings when young and got blacker as they matured. And some of these hybrids do happen in the wild, mainly ratsnake hybrids and the famous Batwing Rattlesnake (Eastern Diamondback/Timber rattler hybrid) have been found in the wild. And I wouldn't be surprised if most of the corn snake population both in captivity and in the wild are hybrids to some extent given the ability of corn snakes to hybridize with almost any other North American Colubrid

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Mbks go from being a subspecies of Cali, to just a morph of Cali and mbk doesn’t exist, to a full species and back again. It’s in a constant state of flux. To us at least it’s a black kingsnake we call mbk that we’ve bred to be blacker and blacker. There’s even Cali king/gopher hybrids in the wild

[@jupekai6295]

@@ReptilesandResearch Cali X goper?! 🤯🤯🤯

[@Creepy-CrawlyMan]

Great video! Keep up the good work :)

[@ReptilesandResearch]

thank you :)

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Using “avatar“ is a great analogy 👌🏼

[@ReptilesandResearch]

it fits perfectly

[@jupekai6295]

I remember when I first got into reptiles back in 2010. I have a normal and a motley cornsnake at first. I then got a candy cane cornsnake, it was like nothing I'd seen so I got researching and discovered it was actually a hybrid. I loved that snake, she put to sleep due to cancer when she was 18. I now have hybrids and will be breeding them. I have stuck to hybrids of species that are from similar environments (corns, kings and milks) so that meeting their husbandry needs are closer and thus easier to meet. Hybrids are also a natural part of evolution too. Has has been found in recent genetic research, as humans are hybrids, we aren't "pure". Yes whilst most of our DNA is Homo sapien sapien, Europeans have been found to have Neanderthal DNA, Tibetan people's have been found to have Denisovan DNA, and I am sure that as more genetic research goes into our own species, we will find that the majority of humans are actually hybrids and has played a major role in our own evolution, let alone other species.

[@Pearl.Is.Autistic.SU.900]

Question, you never explained, what’s so extreme about breeding balls and burms together? Is it a size issue? I would say that those would be my favorite crosses because you get burmese pythons but smaller and ball pythons but bigger which is a great manageable size without being too big plus that calm personality. Also you make a great point on how do you know this animal is pure? I have argued with hundreds of dog enthusiasts and purebred breeders who will claim to you until their face turns blue that, this Rhodesian Ridgeback is from an ancient line of dogs that fought lions in Africa, when really, no modern purebred dog can’t be traced back not nearly that far back.

[@mrvwbug4423]

A breeding size Ball and breeding size Burm are going to be significantly different in size. A small Burm is going to be dramatically bigger than a big Ball. They're also species that live in completely different environments on different continents. Balls live in holes in the ground in west Africa while Burms live in the rainforests of Southeast Asia.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

I mean technically you could make a new breed based on this if you’re willing to work on it, you’d have to give a nice enclosure with a lot of choices of parameters for the hybrid to choose from. Once you figure out what they want you can dial things in as the line progresses. Burmballs come out angry at the world from what I’ve heard. You’d think two chill species makes a chill hybrid, but no they come out ready for a fight

[@quinkana1]

@@ReptilesandResearch I think they're just raging against the world for breeding two very different species together lol

[@notyourguru913]

If you're not breeding to release and if you correctly describe to the best of your knowledge what you've bred to any potential buyers have at it. I'm curious about the care for burmballs and such

[@ReptilesandResearch]

yeah i wouldnt know about burmballs personally

[@brianreedergenetics]

Excellent discussion of this phenomena. You hit all the major points and dealt with them well. 💯%👍

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Thank you ☺️

[@brianreedergenetics]

@@ReptilesandResearch Most welcome!

[@mrvwbug4423]

I've seen some amazing colors and patterns come out of Milksnake and kingsnake hybrids. I have one myself, a Desert King/MBK hybrid, he has a reduced version of the DK pattern, and the irridescence of the MBK which makes him look black & gold in the light. I know Boa hybrids are more common than people think as well. Examples is hybridizing Sonoran Boas (Boa Sigma) with Bis (Boa Imperetor) to get the Leopard morph into BI lines as Leopard morph originated in Sonorans. Another hybrid Boa is anything IMG, the IMG morph started with BCCs (Boa Constrictor) and were hybridized into BI lines to get the IMG morph into BIs. That's also why Leopard morph BIs tend to run small due to being a hybrid with the smaller Sonoran Boa and IMGs tend to run big as they're a BI/BCC hybrid.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

You could end up with whole new breeds and have breed standards etc

[@Sigmaboy69420-j]

Maybe hybridisation could help to keep pilbara rock monitors in the hobby? They have quite a small captive gene pool from what I’ve heard and I know that they have been hybridised in captivity with the much more common Kimberley rock monitors. Maybe the pilbara rock monitors in the hobby are already hybrids in some sense as there is a hamersley rock monitor which is very closely related and similar looking but as far as I know not kept outside of aus. I find things like hybrids an interesting topic. Animals will likely only get more inbred as the hobby progresses and places like Indonesia cut off exports one day

[@benjo8547]

This video is very timely. I always have a preference for natural retics but ironically attempting to breed retic burm hybrids which just had confirmed locks last night.

[@mrvwbug4423]

I would have to wonder how a Burm/Tic would turn out. Does it get even bigger than a normal Burm or Retic. Does it get the Retic intelligence and active personality or the pet rock personality of the Burm?

[@benjo8547]

@ you can search bat eaters on youtube it will show you a hybrid of those species. I just prefer to call them retic burm hybrids as it’s a lot more descriptive and bateaters just sound cheesy.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Snake discovery uploaded a video of them hatching clutches of corn hybrids last night haha timely

[@TheSnakeNursery]

I dont see a problem with hybridizations inside the same genus. I have 2 different ones i'm hoping to produce in the next 2 years. I'm glad more people are coming around on this topic, good video.

[@1mrcow143]

One thing that seems hypocritical is that people say hybrids are unethical yet spider ball pythons are welcomed with open arms despite the obvious health issues with them.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

well yes thats true, a f1 jungle corn is healthier than a spider bp

[@mrvwbug4423]

some of these colubrid hybrids, especially corn/rat hybrids have been observed in wild snakes when ranges overlap, so sometimes the snakes are hybridizing without any human intervention. Corns/rats can hybridize with almost any other north american colubrid.

[@Aethuviel]

So basically "two wrongs make one right". I've only watched the first ten minutes here, but it sounds like the arguments for spider ball pythons. "Some people do something worse, so we can just as well do this bad thing that's not necessary"

[@StefanZach-d4b]

May you should watch the rest... Reptile hobby is evolving... im into it like 25years, back than things like morphes or linebreeding warent a big thing... Im not really a fan of mixing two speciec like carpondro or something... on the other hand if you look how the localiti of the carpets look in comparisson to the CaptiveBreeds you have to agree that our localitis are definitily a way of line breeding...

[@Leijon83]

Hi Liam! A few personal reflections of mine. Obviously you are mainly talking to keepers of a select few species, yet, somewhat arrogantly, adding every other snake species to the same arguments and assumptions. 1. To answer your question questing if I am convinced or not, I have to say “no”. 2. I do have to ask. Who is counting percentages? I have never seen it, heard of it online, nor have I encountered a debate of purity. 3. A very select few keepers are true conservationist, for the wild population. However, you seem to be focused on the “conservation for the wild” that you are forgetting us who are conservationist for that species in the hobby. I for example, am the only one in Scandinavia, to my knowledge that works with a certain frog species for example. 4. I don’t agree with the reasoning that hybridization is the future, as hybridization is just as old as hobby of breeding snakes, more or less. For example, a vast majority of the morph catalogue within the Morelia complex are hybridization between the different species and subspecies. (“Jungles”, “Darwins”, “Coastals”, “Diamonds” to name a few). So there is nothing new about that. 5. The argument “You don’t know”, I find to be a weak argument at best. Just because “I don’t know with 100% certainty” that this snake is “species X” or pure or what ever, does not mean I have a green light to breed it to what ever “makes sense” just because. I can deflect the same argument back to you. You don’t know that every individual within that intergrade zone are hybrids. Statistically I would guess there would be a 33% chance to find a species X, a species Y and a species XY within that intergrade zone? 6. “Make sense”. Well, that’s a slippery slope. What makes sense to hybridize for you might not make sense for someone else. Who decides what makes sense and what doesn’t? Your own example of hybridization between M. Spilota spilota and M. Bredli doesn’t make sense to me for example. What would be the gain of hybridizing the most cold tolerant python in the world with the most arid python in the world? There isn’t even an intergrade zone between the two. 7. Hybridization on mass is absolutely going to muddy an all ready muddy pond, that is a guarantee, for the exact same reasons why UK have a broken stock of exploding snakes. People don’t know how to breed properly as it involves work and people are lazy and simply just don’t care. Another reason is documentation or their lack of it rather. If people just document their parings it would be easy as pie to not have exploding snakes right? 8. Positive list. Well, they are definitely on the horizon, that is true but there are ways to do things about it by joining your local herpetological society. If and when the positive list does become a reality, what is there to say that hybrids are allowed? I seriously doubt that hybrids would be on a positive list, which you then have to prove is a species on that list - which you need documentation (that people don’t create). 9. Venom. Again, the “what makes sense” argument. Hybridizing venomous snakes is a bad idea as there is no way of knowing what will happen with the venom and no way to counter it. In closing. I find the argument “you don’t know” so therefore let’s go bananas and hybridize because we can, weak no matter if its pets for pets or for conservation of the species in the hobby. (Let’s face it, I doubt common keepers think they are “mini conversationalist” for wild populations). Hybrids will muddy the water for the same reasons the waters are muddy today, even without hybrids. Sorry for the long winded comment. BR. Nick

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Hi Nick, Long winded comment is fine, i'll try to answer everything. I'll break it down the same way. 2. In terms of percentages people are working that out, recent example being our recent guest milksnake mutations. Debates of purity are common in US and UK Facebook groups. 3. Yes people are holding onto the animals they like, but its more akin to rare breeds in cattle etc than conservation. What we have has drifted and we are on the road to domestication regardless. That certain frog species that you have will drift from its wild counterparts without you even meaning to, plus if you are the only one and at some point cannot get WC blood in then eventually your population will inbreed and disintigrate until you have issues regarding fertility or you have deaths that end that line. At some point you WILL have to do a salvage cross into something else to keep the line going. Otherwise it all dies eventually. So youll end up with hybrids regardless. Im not saying in the next few years but give it 20 years + and things will fall apart genetically. So my overall point being hybrids are the future because you cannot escape it. 4. I didnt mean that hybrids are new, its been done forever. But my answer in 3. applies, hybrids are the future because you cannot escape it. 5. My point being you don't know that its pure is youre obsessing over something that doesnt exist, and nor can you determine if your current stock is pure. Your point about intergrades doesnt make sense as a rebuttal to me, as a hybrid breeder that wouldnt matter so much and if youre obsessed with pure you dont source from there for certain. 6. A cross between a cold tolerant species and a hot tolerant species makes a pet thats very forgiving of beginner mistakes and much hardier in theory. Whether theres an intergrade between the two is irrelevant. You dont need an intergrade for it to be possible. I was using intergrades as a example of not knowing if something is pure regardless. 7. That example with the eastern indigos and heart problems is a direct result of people NOT doing a salvage cross. No matter how much record data you have of pairings you cant magic genetic diversity. Whether its now or 100 years from now a salvage cross is needed. You say that hybrids on mass are going to create an even muddier gene pool, but like you said people have done it for years yet people still keep seperate hobby form species and buckets of characteristics not affected by other peoples hybrids. common Leopard geckos are hybrids yet people still have different species of leopard geckos within the same hobby, they just dont source from random leopard geckos. However, eventually they will HAVE to do a salvage cross. This is why i am saying its the future because its inevitable. 8. What i mean is say both diamonds and bredl's are on the list then logically the hybrid should be fine because its entire make up is on the list originally. They could try to ban hybrids for whatever reason but then keeping reptiles going forward ceases to exist because the lines of the "pure" species on the list disintegrate into collapse in the coming years. 9. I don't think venomous snakes should be hybridised by pet keepers. But i also dont see a future where people keep many venomous snakes, the population size of venomous snakes in pet hands is smaller than non venomous and it may inbreed into extinction. Hybridising venom in labs can lead to new pharmaceutical advancements. They would have their regular traditional lines and seperate hybrid lines. its a new SKU. its all population genetics.

[@jamyianswiss2347]

@@Leijon83 Well said, sir.

[@carolinemohler7]

The cosplaying zoo keepers thing had me rolling

[@ReptilesandResearch]

lol

[@dacisky]

I never thought about this one way or the other untill you mentioned the origons of the tessera morph. Tessera is my favorite and the more perfect the stripes,the more appealing it becomes...Then you continued and I remember when I lived in North Carolina. IO lived on a sanctuaior and there was a really big broad banded water snake. I think it's a female ..She would sun herself on a stump by the river and whenever I saw her,I'd sit in the sun near her and just watch her..Me and a friend saw her breeding with another snake...I don't know what it was except it was not a broad banded water snake. Was it a rat snake? A diamond backed water snake? Who knows! The other snake was mostly on his back and way smaller than her. When they were done,he dashed into his hidy hole and she headed towards the river. ..I was astounded But yeah,you are 100% correct.d. So,can we say tessera is a breed of corn snake,or is it becoming a breed of corn snake? Do explore this further as this domestication discussion really fascinates me.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

exactly, these weird cross species breedings happen too. in fact, thats how Hybrid speciation occurs!

[@dacisky]

I worded that wrong.I was astounded at the two different snakes breeding,not at what your discussion . I fixed it.

[@geckoguy4141]

@@ReptilesandResearch Do you have any sources I could look into on the tessera morph's origin? I've been trying to look it up, but I haven't been able to find anything.

[@MissLlewella]

And how about legal things, Lampropeltis getula species are on the invasive species list in the EU.

[@Nook_Miis]

feels like a conversation that's a few years ahead of where I'm at in my own hobby but I find hybrid animals to be fascinating and I would want as much info as i could get on what went into the hybrid, as i recall the hobby form of tarantula's happened by accident the original collectors didn't have a proper understanding of what they had collected people bred them not know any more than what they where told and now we have the hobby form curly hair that's calm to the point where the bug zoo in Victoria lets visitors of all ages hold them I haven't tried that with the wild type sling that I've got because it tries to eat everything that moves, I vaguely recall a conversation where it was suspected that the Hysterocrates Gigas that's in the hobby is also another accidental hybrid and that the wild type not as cantankerous as the ones people have been breeding. another way to look at things could be that every time people see an opportunity to cross breed animals someone takes it, dogs to wolves, cats to other wild cats, flowerhorn cichlids parrot fish. the idea that it wouldn't happen with reptiles is unusual. it's a situation outside of my control being upset is pointless.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Also I’d rather the chill friendly hobby form curly hair haha I already have one

[@danielmerrell8926]

On your line of thinking where do you draw the line that's my issue going with your point you will end up with something that looks nothing like what it did originally something totally different where as slight lightly enhancing the colour (phenotype) but you still want it to closely resemble be easily recognized as the animal it was in the wild

[@ReptilesandResearch]

You’d end up with animals that are their own thing. You also have people breeding the animals that are “PURE”. Both will happen at the same time like it always has

[@MissLlewella]

Not the future, it is happening. 20 years ago there were already lots of junglecorns. Now I'm not even sure anymore which corns are pure corns. And last year I spoke to a reptile educator who does not even know hybrids are a thing and can be perfectly fertile.

[@accountname9872]

Idk man, im okay with hybrids IF we make sure the animals health comes first. Do not sacrafice quailty of life for looks. I would also want a license because look at back yard dog breeders, theyre still trying SO hard to reverse the damages done to those breeds. Its a cool yes, but how ethical is it? Do you really wanna be known as the guy who causes terrible quailty if life reptiles that die? Its a subject i dont know as much as i want to about it but from the other species i have quite a bit of knowledge in, it's alot of the times a very quick path into having to put down animals.

[@Secularwonderdragon]

I see what your saying but if you could why not do both breed for pets and separately but just as important conversation that's my goal anyway like timber rattlesnake for conversation and ake monitor for the pet side sort of a pet store/ zoo some pets to take home and schooling about the animals that need our help.

[@Purplesquigglystripe]

I love hybrids, but one thing that concerns me is how do you know what temps and humidity are good for the hybrid? It's also harder to know what to expect in terms of size and behavior. Selective breeding needs to be done with caution as well as it's easy to screw things up if you are too narrow minded about specific traits and not always evaluating for health (soft spots in chihuahua skulls, scottish folds just being doomed to not live for very long, hip dysplasia in dogs, DCM in dobermans). I agree though that the larping as conservationists is silly. There's a lot more that goes into conservation than just breeding animals.

[@roberthowsare1812]

Well, I do agree that we won’t fully know what temps or humidity hybrids might need, but if we think about it, most species like corn snake and king snakes have very similar care, same goes for milksnakes, so we can assume that they have the same humidity or temps that are very similar, also dogs and reptiles are very different, so no I don’t believe there we be soft spots in a ballpython skull because someone bred their Burmese python with their bp

[@ReptilesandResearch]

It has to make sense, for example all the snakes in the tribe lampropeltini are kept the same way in herpetoculture. Shavings, water bowl, humide hide and a basking spot. So the hybrids within this group make sense to me because id keep a cali king and a corn exactly the same anyway. Selective breeding and line breeding HAS to have culling happening to remove undesirable traits. You end up with breeds that you know the exact requirements for because you bred them FOR those requirements.

[@mrvwbug4423]

My own hybrid a DK/MBK thankfully is two species that basically live in the same conditions and the same husbandry, basically Cal King temperatures with Pueblan low humidity.

[@astrogallus]

👍

[@Acolyte7]

I see the problem you're purposing, I am just not convinced hybrid breeding is the solution. That would only muddy the waters, losing species in the long run.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

i totally understand the perspective, i think im gonna make a part two. People have given me a lot to chew on and i have some ideas to share

[@mkuc6951]

Liam you should try to address the poison dart frog community. LOL

[@ReptilesandResearch]

I don’t know anything about it so can’t comment

[@mkuc6951]

@@ReptilesandResearch Liam, The dart frog community is very, very inflexible to hybrids citing diseases, etc. Also its not even open to crossing localities of the same species like two Dendrobates tinctorius which come in a large number of colours from different localities.

[@crashingdown6814]

Green x Yellow anacondas turned out so great.... Keep in mind that when you make an hybrid you have 0 understanding on what will happen, and results will be reflect that.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Tbf I don’t know much specifically about anaconda hybrids, I was talking about members of lampropeltini who are all great pet snakes. You would try a cross for the first time not knowing what would happen, but that doesn’t mean you can’t cull. Not sure anacondas would ever be on the path to domestication I think they are a relic of yesterday’s hobby personally

[@thekingoftheworld9553]

Do you have a Skyrim channel?

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Yup haha

[@thekingoftheworld9553]

@@ReptilesandResearch I knew it was you! 😂 The voice just clicked, I love both channels ❤️

[@ReptilesandResearch]

@@thekingoftheworld9553 thank you ☺️

[@fluffbungle6533]

I'm not settled on hybrids, not really, on either side. I would say that there is a world of difference to my mind between a species hybrid, subspecies hybrid and a locality hybrid. The morph thing (which I see as being locality hybrids in many cases) is not something I'm fond of, but purely down to the way the hobby handles it. A subspecies intergrade is fine, in theory, but has more grey areas. A full species hybrid is a much harder thing to justify, and when I hear "Hybrid" I assume it's a species cross. Now, there may be a place for this. For instance, if there are species that have no natural counterpart, would that then become a domesticated animal? Technically a ferret doesn't exist thanks to no wild counterpart, they are far enough removed from true polecats to be deemed a domestic animal, even though some hark back to a very close representation. It's a lot harder to argue against a domesticated animal as a pet. Another issue I have is dogs. There is some very serious lessons to be learned from dog breeds. To say it's fine to just play with the breeding is one thing, but left unchecked you end up with the Pug/Bulldog issue where they have genetic issues that often require invasive intervention at an early age, but that is considered "part of the breed". Which I believe is horrific. If we were to go down this road it would need to be done by logic, and I don't necessarily believe enough people would follow that rule. Already, look at the bad genes that still get bred despite full knowledge of the negatives. We're at a point where we can walk that back, but do you really think people will? So, would I have an issue with a hybrid species with no wild counterpart? As I have ferrets and a dog, obviously not, provided they are healthy and by the breeding suited to life alongside human beings. Would I have an issue with someone deliberately breeding for something that would excel captivity, regardless of the origins? Not necessarily, but without some kind of oversight this could lead down some unpleasant roads. Do I have an issue with anyone throwing species together without thought? Yes, absolutely, but who's going to tell them that they are not doing it properly and stop them? If it were to go as wrong as dog breeds, then I would be really against it. Would I personally breed a hybrid? I don't know, I like the animals for what they are. I don't really mind that my corn snake is a mutt, he's still great. But I wouldn't want to try and cross him with my russian rat snakes, even though the cross could in theory be really good as a pet. Would I take hybrids over a complete ban? Yes, as I think reptiles are increasingly better suited to people as pets in a modern world. Mammals are high maintenance and high cost, vastly so in comparison to reptiles, and there are many which suffer poor care because of that. I would be lost without my pets, they give my life a purpose I'd otherwise lack and keep my head out of the depression pit most of the time. If the way to keep that kind of thing in people's lives was hybrids, so be it.

[@ashleydobbs9877]

Is there any real evidence that hybrids are healthier? I am trying to be open minded. Have there been studies done? I am still not really convinced. I don't feel it would be good for conservation efforts. However it MIGHT be OK for pets only in some cases. As long as the animals are not any worse off for it. Also it would be good to take into consideration if the animals breed naturally in their habitats, and if the species overlap.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Yeah google heterosis, most crops are hybrids for this reason. Conservationists would be running their stud books far away from the pet trade. Pairings need to make sense and be purposeful for making better pets.

[@Pearl.Is.Autistic.SU.900]

I might also add, I have been looking for years into the inbreeding of dogs, and so many purebred enthusiasts will claim what you’re claiming, however I have yet to see one that has found a good, non-biased article on it. It’s not reptiles, but the breeding works the same way across most animals and even plants. I am not sure what you are looking up, or if you are actually researching this at all because in my experience it’s quite easy to find scientific articles on why inbreeding in any consistency is not healthy for resulting offspring. Here’s my explanation of why inbreeding is not healthy and outcrossing is healthy. Inbreeding is when two related organisms breed and create offspring. This can be done not only by parent-child or sibling-sibling, but also by cousin-cousin or cousin-aunt/uncle, and even child-grandparent or child-great-grandparent. And the latter two are dubbed by fanciers, “line-breeding”. That is to say, line-breeding is just a fancy term of inbreeding. And I find it silly that people will call line-breeding not inbreeding because that’s exactly what it is. If you go back to the start of golden retriever breed, that is exactly what happened. So we will continue this breeding process, breeding the same population that can be traced back to a few, or even a single animal. As this process continues, the variation in offspring decreases, so in the case of golden retrievers, they are all shades of red. But the other unintended consequence, is recessive mutations. So the animals carrying those unwanted mutations are sterilized and the gene pool decreases. And sure, one could argue that it is good because we are breeding away from other mutations and diseases, such as hip or elbow dysplasia, or heart problems, but that is the only pro to breeding this way, because we are still picking from the same small gene pool where those recessive traits can pop up more and more as the population becomes more inbred. This is exactly what the term “genetic bottlenecking” means. Essentially, the largest part of the bottle is the entire population, and then as the widest part of the bottle becomes thinner, the same thing happens to the gene pool of the plant or animal. Another comment stated that hybrid vigor was false, and I will agree with that, that the animal is no healthier than the ORIGINAL, starting point animal, and NOT the most recent animal. Hybrid vigor, as the other commenter explains, is just the result of breeding two inbred, genetically bottle-necked animals. The resulting animal has more genetic diversity in result. As for raising animals for conservation, I actually addressed this problem in my own comment. But, to reiterate, I personally don’t see the point in using the same species of animal to conserve an animal, and why people would rather continue genetic bottlenecking the population of critically endangered-extinct in the wild animals where one disease can wipe out the entire species, putting back all efforts to reintroduce the animal back into the wild and rendering the animal back into the original spot it was. This is the problem cheetahs have right now. Genetically diverse animals are good because if a disease in animals spreads, certain animals will have better genes than others and can become more immune to the disease. That being said, a single disease can wipe out the entire population of cheetahs, regardless of conservation status, because they are so inbred they don’t have enough genetic diversity to continue their population. And as I mentioned in my comment, sure, the animals wouldn’t breed that way in nature, but I don’t see why we need to risk the entire species of that animal for the most natural outcome that would happen in nature. There are SO MANY critically endangered and extinct in the wild animals where they could greatly benefit from outcrossing to increase genetic diversity and decrease the chance of a disease wiping the entire population and species as a whole, out.

[@mrvwbug4423]

It reduces inbreeding, most wild populations of any animal are likely inbred to a certain extent. In the case with snakes we're lucky that they generally produce fertile hybrids as apparently their genetics seem to be much more receptive to hybridization vs mammals where hybrids are often sterile.

[@Aethuviel]

Not all hybrids are the same. You simply can't compare reptiles to crops. Equine hybrids are sterile. Big cat hybrids seem to suffer from gigantism. Some parrot hybrids have shown mental problems (mobrella) and some die young for no apparent reason (African parrot hybrids). "Hybrid vigor" is a thing from breeds of domestic animals within the same species. It's not actually hybrids, then, just adding genes from outside one narrowly inbred "family" (dog breeds are more like human surnames, than actual races or subspecies). If it's a critically endangered species with only a few dozen animals left or less, and there's a very closely related species, I think it's ethical to hybridize one(!) time to add some blood to that population. But that's also the only reason, beyond just making funny-looking curiosities for the pet trade.

[@Aethuviel]

Dog breeds are made by humans in recent history. Crossing a husky and a retriever doesn't make a hybrid, of any sort. You can't compare that to crossing species that have millions of years apart.

[@jamyianswiss2347]

Pure sophistry and unsupported assertions without evidence. The worst commentary I have yet to see here, but tossing around terms like “domestication” without knowledge or rigor is something I’ve seen here for years, and I’m done watching this channel and commentator. All of your claims about Indigos are unsupported assumptions and ill-informed exaggerations. The notion that hybridizing Indigos is a valid idea for “improving” the species is disastrously ill informed nonsense. This is a trained animal maintenance technician and not a scientist. And clearly he is now little more than a proponent of “it’s just a hobby and as long as it’s fun, and nothing else matters.“ Commentators like this are part of the problem, and couldn’t be further from the solution.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

My degree is applied animal sciences, Ellie has a masters in zoo biology which had focus in ecology and population genetics. Our lecturer was a well known conservation ecologist with a PhD. I am currently editing an episode of the podcast where we got someone who has been researching domestication for 20+ years, a published author on domestication and he also echoed the same premise, even referencing this exact video saying this is exactly bang on. So im pretty confident that im pretty clued up on how this works. What i'd say is are you a scientist then? If so would you mind breaking down exactly where we have all gone wrong? If not and you are unable to do so what was the point in this comment? Do you breed indigos in the UK? Is that why you sound upset?

[@jamyianswiss2347]

@@ReptilesandResearchOh I have no doubt you’re confident, but confidence is no measure of competence. You say the captive population of D. couperi is wildly inbred. Where is your evidence other than hearsay? More to the point, what exactly does that mean? Is there 30% relatedness throughout the captive population? 50%? 75%? How does that compare with the wild population, and what conclusions would you draw from such a comparison (if you knew, which you don’t)? More to the point, even though you don’t have any of those answers, the fact is that there is no competent wildlife biologist who would ever suggest that hybridizing D. couperi with D. melanurus erebennus (or rubidus) is a responsible act or a strategy that would benefit the species. You’re talking nonsense - that is hazardous to the species. And your argument, such as it is, regarding locality keeping is also spurious and unsupported. More claims of pure opinion masquerading as facts. Of course selective breeding is having an impact on captive species, but that’s a subject for a nuanced discussion, not a wild generalization that amounts to throwing up one’s hands and pronouncing “all bets are off.” And no I’m not a scientist. The fact that you have a degree in another area of specialty outside what you’re actuality discussing is irrelevant. Your degree does not render your opinions as authoritative, even though you frequently pretend it does. I have spent much of my life connected with animal care, and most of my life associating with countless scientists, both personally and professionally. (I’m even published in a refereed journal - but in an unrelated field.) You can often tell the good ones quickly: they understand the inherent flaws of argument from authority.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

We know as a hobby that the UK population of eastern indigos ARE experiencing increasing frequency of heart problems. Theres no new blood coming in because of their protected status. Its a very obvious example of increased homozygosity of the UK population and deleterous recessive alleles being expressed. I have even stood in talks given at zoos where the keepers detail how the inbreeding makes them difficult and they hoped to get some US blood in. I dont need to know the exact relatedness of each individual or calculate the COI to understand this. In the same veign do sufficient lineage data records exist to even calculate this from? Its all well and fine being disgusted by the either of outcrossing, but why wasnt the population managed with that same intense obsession over purity? Eventually the population may disintigrate into exctinction because of the lack of fresh genetics to flush out the recessive alleles or at least cover them with heterosis. The fact that no respecting biologist would ever suggest hybrids? Have you studied with ecologists and biologists in the modern sphere? We even had lengthy lectures about using hybrids for plasticity. Hybrids in the wild COULD decrease fitness in the wild for eastern indigos OR increase it. Its a case by case basis for wild habitats. However, the UK animals are just pets, we do a test outcross, assess viability and either proceed or halt based upon that. We are the selective pressure. This is a lot of oh its unsupported and no biologist would EVER agree, yet they do. And PS. no my degree is not unrelated, population genetics was a core unit that I needed to pass and i was taught by ecologists. Regardless I never leaned upon my degree it was you that brought it up with the "This is a trained animal maintenance technician and not a scientist". My qualifications are irrelevant when I run videos past people who are even more qualified than either of us. Its absolutely fine to say i disagree, why so emotionally charged, personal and pointed? Just dont click on the videos and go enjoy what you want to do with your hobby mate.

[@jamyianswiss2347]

@ Yes, rest assured. I am not the only commentator to point out your misuse of the word “domestication.” Morph ball pythons are not domesticated animals. Any comparison to domestic dogs isn’t just wrong, it’s wildly wrong - they are one species. There are ethical, philosophical, and indeed aesthetic aspects of your subject and position to which you appear to be blind and deaf. No reputable zoological institution would ever cross a lion with a tiger - an event impossible in the wild but biologically possible with human interference. No zoo would ever engage in this because the resultant animal would be a freak - not of nature, but of human devise. And indeed such freaks have been produced, and no professional zoo would ever exhibit them, and they do literally end up as sideshow and circus freaks. And yet you speak glibly of crossing a Burmese Python and a Ball Python because why the hell not, it’d be so cool, it’d be something new! “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” Although they were dreamt of, and written of, by Aldo Leopold, and Thoreau. Good luck. I’m out.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

@ grab a hot pot, paint some minis and take a deep breath 😮‍💨 it’s going to be okay.

[@Dudewheresmyspider]

Halfway through the video and I can confidently say as a behaviour and conservation degree student you have succeeded in challenging my worldview on this issue. I still recoil at the idea of deliberate hybridisation. But given your argument it would seem we are approaching a catalyst of domestication where the “hobby form” of certain species are crossing that boundary from “species” to “breed” It’s an intimidating prospect. One I’d like to see supported by stronger breeding regulation and public education as well as more robust conservation work. My personal flavour is Hog island Boas. I know that mine despite carrying all the wildtype characteristics has a near zero chance of having a remotely direct genetic lineage from the collected wild population. However I’m firmly in the belief that as a locality they deserve greater recognition and research, and I worry at the impact hybridisation could have on viewing this locality as distinct from their mainland B. imperator counterparts

[@ReptilesandResearch]

you can also set protocol into your breeding program to select for the characteristics you want, for example size is totally changeable as we know thats exactly what happened on the island with the hoggies. You select for the smaller animals, youd need to hold babies back longer to assess their growth BUT it is doable. Technically you could take boas unrelated to hoggies and make your line smaller too, in the same way my friend has a line of smaller honduran milksnakes. im not saying everything should be a hybrid and all localities and species that people like to be thrown to the wind. People should work hard on working with hog island boas if they want to proliferate them, whilst also selecting for size. We know that morphs, localities and hybrids can exist at the same time in herpetoculture because they already do, theres still hardcore locality people who work with seperate animals to the morph people that are seperate from the hybrid people. Hybrid breeders want everything to be labelled as much as everyone else because they want to know whats in it to know if it suits their program. In the same breath a locality breeder should be seeking out the right animals. Breeding properly requires you to be selective regardless of if its mice, pigeons or reptiles.

[@RobertSmith-pf1gn]

Could you imagine the morphs of a bp with the great food response and size of a boa

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Be like feeed me Seymour 😂

[@matg919]

I worked with birds of pray when I was at school and people had the same arguments then. It's a pet, not a conservation program, it's the same as dogs or cats they are nothing like their wild counterparts.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

@@matg919 barn owls and Harris hawks have drifted too

[@Pearl.Is.Autistic.SU.900]

The argument is what if they escape into the wild? Though. Like it’s all or nothing. No non native reptiles can go into Australia unless it’s for zoo and educational purposes.

[@Pearl.Is.Autistic.SU.900]

Also, birds of prey are a COMPLETELY different argument than reptiles. I disagree that birds or parrots shouldn’t be pets at all (excl. finches, canaries, some very small parrots) much less crossbred with each other.

[@Aethuviel]

Yet some exotic species of animals only survived because of private owners and breeders, not zoos. If we hybridize, breed all sorts of morphs and "domesticate" them, then that's gone.

[@GrimmDelightsDice]

@@Pearl.Is.Autistic.SU.900 My dude, we have multiple fully domestic birds. Pigeons, chickens, turkeys, etc. Wild rock doves aren't even pure anymore, same with red jungle fowl. Also, birds ARE reptiles. They're theropod dinosaurs.