The Game Theory of Snitching

[@Vsauce2]

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[@actualzelda]

you're back! yay!

[@danielsayre3385]

Nice shirt

[@cheejianhooimoe775]

Yes it doesn't end

[@zgamez129]

The pinned comment only has 4 replies and 34 likes lmao

[@seed7639]

kthxbye

[@Neverender6]

One time when I was in elementary school gym class I was standing in front of a stack of chairs by the wall and unbeknownst to me another boy started climbing on the chairs behind me. He ended up knocking them over and making a huge mess. I turned around but not in time to see how it happened. At that same moment the teacher turned around and saw both of us standing by the knocked over chairs. She asked us what happened, and I said I didn't know because I genuinely didn't see what happened. Meanwhile, the other boy told the teacher that he saw me climbing on the chairs and I knocked them over. I was shocked and denied any wrongdoing, but words cannot describe how much _more_ shocked I was when the teacher then said that _she saw me climbing on the chairs too_ and she only asked us what happened to see if we would tell the truth. Obviously I knew for a fact that I hadn't been climbing on the chairs, and the teacher must not have actually seen what happened, but no matter how much I insisted the teacher didn't believe me. I got sent to detention while she praised the boy who actually did it for telling her the "truth". I'm a grown adult now but this is still one of my core memories from childhood since it taught me how people can be wrongly convicted based on false witness testimony.

[@Vsauce2]

Woah... this is fascinating on several different levels. Some people really are so bent on meting out justice that they convince themselves of truths that just didn't happen. I also totally understand how something that small can stick with you and influence life later on, especially when the injustice comes from authority. Wow.

[@ethanlewis1453]

​@@Vsauce2 The teacher likely didn't convince herself that story is what happened, she was intentionally telling a lie to make it appear that she only interrogates kids to see if they will tell the truth or not, in an effort to get kids to tell the truth. Only because the teacher was a dishonest fool, her tall tale only encouraged the opposite... for the kids to tell lies.

[@Bushtailedwildcat]

I had a similar experience in early school; When the teacher momentarily left to see to some other pupils, Another boy pulled the paper off an easel she was using. I stood up with my friend at the time and attempted to put the paper back up. The teacher returned to find me midway in the process. There were five other children to give testimony, but I got the blame for pulling the paper off. It isn't ethical or lawful, but. Do you know where that lair now lives?

[@Real28]

I feel like a lot of us have had and experience like this.

[@winkstack6410]

Well, she wasn't very chairitable

[@kidscode3702]

As a father who lost access to his children because his ex lied in court about abuse that never happened, this really hits close to home. The benefits of one lying will always outweight the truth sadly. Its not really about right or wrong or justice at the end of the day, its all who plays the game. I miss my children everyday.

[@Ceelvain]

Depending when it happened and your country, you might want to challenge the outcome. The boyfriend of my ex is in a similar situation with the mother of his daughter. She tried everything, including suing him for sexual abuse on their daughter. The mother was deemed mentally unstable. She even refused to bring back their daughter in september. The kid is no longer in school AFAIK. In any case, mentalities evolve and judgements are much less "mothers first" when it comes to kids.

[@ikwenmusic]

I’m so sorry for that. I can’t imagine what you’re going through.

[@kidscode3702]

Wow, didnt expect this to blow up. Was just sharing my thoughts on how much this video impacted me, great job Kevin btw. For those asking I live in New Zealand, my case actually made the news and my ex-partner's lawyer was found guilty of misconduct for lying under oath. It doesnt change the standing parenting order though, just fines for both parties. She retains full custody and has the ability to deny visits still. It has been 4 years. Thank you for the kind words too, I do greatly apprecaite it. I really just expected that comment to kinda fly under the radar and just be another bit of my mind Id shared but never connected to anyone with, so pleasently surprised

[@Didgeridoovibes]

@@kidscode3702 I wish you strength and hope something changes and you can see your kids soon

[@lloydymk2013]

Stop lying u nonce

[@hannahb6249]

When I was a kid in school I was branded a snitch for reporting a bully after he beat me up. It lead to a fair amount of social ostracism from other students as the phrase alone got passed around without context. I think that's so weird that it carries so much meaning as a label. I think the fear is often, as pointed out in the video, to do with someone lying about you and you being unable to defend yourself, but I always think it's interested to see how these things get twisted around in different situations.

[@Vsauce2]

Right, it's a really strange scenario... and when a bully beats you up, you as the victim are supposed to behave in a way that protects the bully? The fact that there's a negative consequence for that, which follows you being on the seriously negative end of the interaction to begin with, is twisted. Victims just shouldn't be caught in a lose-lose scenario.

[@smartduck904]

I had this happen lots as a kid my cousins would shoot me with hunting pellet guns and stick me with needles and they were going to hang me once my cousin who was the gain leader after going to jail for countless charges makes meth and still getting in trouble and let off easy to this day every day was a nightmare growing up school was terrible I was very much bullied I did the same the only thing that stops in the end was knocking a kid out when I was in middle school after he shoved me and punched me in the gut and cut in front of me in the lunch line he fell into the ground two the teachers picked him up they didn't say a thing and if I remember right everyone was quiet I don't know why but from that moment forward the bullying basically completely stopped

[@unliving_ball_of_gas]

@smart duck Sorry to hear that. Though I would advise practising punctuation.

[@Person-ef4xj]

I feel like bullies tend to have an incentive to try to silence victims as it makes them less likely to get caught and punished. I feel like if the punishment for trying to silence victims is the same as that of bullying then bullies might consider it worth it if it lowers the chances of victims reporting it and so makes them less likely to get caught. I think the punishment for trying to silence victims might need to be much harsher than bullying alone in order to make the potential for not getting caught less of an incentive. For instance if one was to get detention for bullying but expulsion from the school system if caught trying to silence victims then the bully might be less inclined to consider trying to silence their victims as it would mean turning a detention into an expulsion.

[@danf7411]

It's because of tribalism, kids vs authority. School is like a Lil prison yard you are expected to handle it within your tribe. We are Lil apes

[@theprofessionalfence-sitter]

Seems like the real problem is that juries put far too much weight on witness testimonies, despite the fact that witnesses, even those who do want to be honest, are notoriously unreliable.

[@tessiepinkman]

Should start doing it like we do in Sweden, no juries, just a row of well educated judges. Not saying it's perfect, but at least they don't get swayed as easily and *knows* the law, inside and out.

[@RGC_animation]

Yeah, you can show up with tons of evidence and they'll have to "make sure it's accurate" over and over, but one random lady who might or might not be working with the murderer says he didn't do it, and now he's set free just like that.

[@SangoProductions213]

Oh yes. A row of installed elites decide your fate.

[@demetrioshilton6264]

Evidence that has a questionable chain of possession or an entire person who can perjure themself and be held responsible if need be. See we tend to focus too much on the blindfold and not the scales

[@Boardwoards]

reliability isn't even it, they're almost always incentivized to stab one another in the back and authority is always looking for a chance to attack with impunity after everyone thinks someone deserves consequence

[@elidagdagan2780]

I remember back in the 80s Guards dealing with very reckless inmates had a “snitch game.” The guards would name an unruly inmate a “snitch” and thus allow other inmates to take their own vendetta against that inmate. This would last until that inmate cooperated with the guards so that they can be put into protective custody. This all happened in the New Mexico penitentiary.

[@RGC_animation]

This is a very cruel system that technically works that the prisoners can't do anything about.

[@olekbeluga314]

No wonder the inmates were reckess -- their guards were monsters.

[@Vsauce2]

There are so many 'games within a game' to this, that is fascinating

[@unliving_ball_of_gas]

@@Vsauce2 and unfortunately also tragic

[@unliving_ball_of_gas]

@BlackLivesMatter That would require all the inmates to cooperate and stand with each other... which goes against the nature of a prison environment.

[@kaseywahl]

It took me until the end of the video to realize that upgrading your fishing rod and competing against other anglers was an ad and had nothing to do with Game Theory and the Prisoner's Dilemma.

[@asheep7797]

Nah, I think it does. The link is left as an exercise to the reader.

[@TYsdrawkcaB]

IKR

[@SinisterSplinter]

Hey Kev, I never really caught the Vsauce2 train since I grew up I Vsauce, but I gotta say, your recent focus on crime and policing has been incredible. I’ve always struggled to understand this aspect of our society and your videos have been super informative and engaging. Thanks for what you do.

[@Vsauce2]

Welcome aboard the train

[@kindlin]

I think you'll find a long backlog of crime-related videos over here at VS2.

[@ZentaBon]

I legit was thinking about this the other day. Can't believe you made a whole video on it, this is perfect.

[@Mookle123]

I had this same experience! You must be 'In'.

[@ZentaBon]

@@Mookle123 XD nice one

[@SH4MP0W]

The system is corrupt. Justice is blind. Thanks to Fishing Clash for supporting this video

[@FokkeWulfe]

You understand that Justice being blind, is a metaphor for the system not being corrupt, yes? It's why she wears a blindfold.

[@zawarudo497]

@@FokkeWulfe did you finish the video? at the end he talks about how the blindfold has also in the past been used to represent not being able to see injustice

[@FokkeWulfe]

@@zawarudo497 it has. But that's not what Justice being blind means.

[@SH4MP0W]

Blind justice seems like a strange, paradoxical ideal to me. Maybe as a people we should come together to reconsider what may be anachronistic notions of those who snuck the seeds of oppression into that which should be for the common good. This takes sight. And I am willing to openly admit that my stance comes from a certain perspective; all views do. That is the point. To pretend that justice is somehow above or beyond our stance in the world is to ascribe to the transcendental notion that humans are all the same, all fair in their basic judgements, and all intending, in the end, for human good. Hopefully the greater sight we have gained through education, history, and inclusion has disposed us of that notion. tbh tho it was not on purpose i just thought the fish thing was funny and typed it too fast

[@itismethatguy]

@@SH4MP0W LMAO

[@realcygnus]

We tend to be proud of "a jury of your peers", when in fact almost nothing is scarier.

[@WeedMIC]

But, in reality it is a jury of citizens. Not really peers.

[@Jabersson]

Well said

[@realcygnus]

@@WeedMIC Yup, which is potentially even worse for an above avg innocent. However, I'm NOT suggesting that it definitely is thE worst system. But in most cases I'd probably rather have people highly educated in criminal justice(or related) decide my fate. Unless of course they worked to conviction quotas. Which they probably would if that was indeed the case. Oh my, what a can of catch 22 worms I just opened.

[@WeedMIC]

@@realcygnus i should like the accused picks his judge, the prosecutor picks his judge, and those two judges pick a third they both trust. But no one has that (anymore).

[@realcygnus]

@@WeedMIC Hmm, that an interesting one actually.

[@Bammab127]

True justice is impartial. The justice we get is usually blinded by the easier route or money

[@jerotoro2021]

It's impossible for humans to be truly impartial. Humans are incapable of true justice.

[@Bammab127]

That is true, but we shouldn't base justice off "what is easier for me" or "how do I profit from this" since neither are justice at all really

[@unliving_ball_of_gas]

@@Bammab127 Were you replying to a deleted reply or forgot to change to your alt? Edit: defo a deleted reply, i just thought your reply sounded funny without context

[@merritentertainment]

I honestly never realized how awesome you are at saying something in return to the thoughtful and relfective comments on your videos. It's amazing to see a creator show love for his audience. Not only are you just responding in a meaningful way, but you're responding kindly and giving out suggestions to help their jurney of knowledge. Thanks for creating such great content, and thanks for just being a cool content creator!

[@naota3k]

I remember being in Elementary and Middle school, and often hearing "nobody likes a tattletale" from the teachers. Like, wtf? Way to teach kids early not to be honest.

[@Stickman_Productions]

Snitching can get you in serious danger.

[@Ceelvain]

I heard that too. But it was said when kids told something the grown-ups don't care about and don't plan on doing anything about. In that case, it's not about teaching dishonesty. It's about teaching (somehow poorly) to select relevant informations.

[@KicksPregnantWomen]

its true though

[@naota3k]

@@Stickman_Productions In elementary school?

[@Stickman_Productions]

@@naota3k better to learn young

[@Wayclarke]

It's criminal how entertaining Kevin's videos are but I'm not gonna snitch.

[@Zombie_Chess]

you had me in stitches

[@Wayclarke]

@@Zombie_Chess Took me a few hours but now I see what you did.

[@Vsauce2]

RESPECT THE VSAUCE2 CODE

[@actualzelda]

@@Vsauce2 yes, sir

[@harrisonbuchanan7286]

I always hated that phrase, even my teachers (The one's you are supposed report wrong doing to) would say it. Only evil benefits from this "rule."

[@Vsauce2]

It is so much more complex than teachers make it seem, and that can put kids in a really awkward position.

[@gorgonsmith7.8bviews1dayag3]

that phrase is good so shut up ur making everyone unconfortable

W

[@FafliXx]

Maybe it's the autism, but I never got the idea of why snitching is considered bad. Obviously it depends on the circumstances, but society doesn't work very well if people don't talk to anyone about the wrongs they see. If you see a kid getting bullied, you tell the teachers. If you see a serious wrong getting committed, you tell the police, or public or whoever is applicable.

[@Nolaris3]

As an autistic guy I get what you mean. However there is sort of another layer of trust that must be understood. If you're in a group of people who do something off, then you tell someone else, it signals to everyone in that group that they can't trust you with anything, and in other cases, might believe that you should suffer punishment for that. Of course, you hopefully don't want to be in such a group in the first place, though unfortunately many autistic people find themselves among them just so they can fit in with anyone. At the same time, they tend to have a fixed sense of justice and order based on what was taught to them, but struggle to navigate through grey areas. To simplify, imagine the school has a rule where you're not allowed to play board games in the study room. Then you come across a group of your friends doing it, and then the teacher comes and asks you if you've seen them do it, maybe even giving you a reward for doing so. Do you tell her the truth or tell her you didn't see anything? Telling the truth may be the "right" thing, but at a social cost where everyone thinks they can't trust you with any secret. Lying means the teacher has no testimony and your friends respect you for having their back. The world of crime is a bit like this but with much higher stakes.

[@piralos1329]

In theory it doesn',t but there is a reason it is so looked down upon socially - it is seen as a lack of ability to be trustworthy. If you snitch every time someone does something wrong, then no one can trust you with their secrets or wrong doings, because you might snitch. It creates a social ostricisation as a punishment for what is percieved to be a betrayal. Or, in short, people don't like actions having negative consequences, and by snitching you bring about those negative consequences.

[@paultapping9510]

that's not snitching though. The distinction is that a snitch is someone who is already involved telling on others who are also involved. So in your example of a kid being bullied, a snitch would be one of the bullies rolling on the others when picked up by a teacher. In criminal gangs, a civilian who tells is not a snitch, but a low-level street guy informing on his olders to avoid prison definitely would be. Basically, snitching is the breaking of a pre-existing social contract between two or more parties.

[@cltuxunink]

it comes from (valid) distrust for authority within poor and marginalised communities

[@Hesnotoneofus]

Autism or understanding Kant's moral duty and the categorical imperative. e.g. I feel like car's should have speed 'camera's that fine drivers in the car. Not just whoever happens to get caught.

[@raysiris]

Why people are okay with dangerous people walking free cause "snitches get stitches" confuses me...

[@DefaultMii]

it's more like the legal system is corrupt to let people get away with it

[@harrietjameson]

because the two types of people you don't wanna get involved with are police and criminals (and you do both by snitching)

[@Ribulose15diphosphat]

Who defines what "dangerous" means ? Maybe you disagree with the law. Most newfangled offenses (like underage sex or drug dealing) didn't exist in historic law, not to mention of applying laws to acts in private or in a foreign country. All theese garbae laws come from the UNO or NGOs and in a true democracy none of theese should exist.

[@harrietjameson]

@Ribulose15diphosphat "none of these should exist" no, in a true democracy, laws will exist and they will be what the people want if people don't want drugs or pregnant teenagers, they'll vote for those to be illegal

[@BruceNJeffAreMyFlies]

@@harrietjameson Not to mention, indifference is a VERY powerful emotion.

[@marcythewizard]

I feel like the big difference between whistle-blower and snitches are whistle-blowers do it for everyone to know what bad stuff is going on snitches do it to save themselves.

[@Brent-jj6qi]

Yeah, especially if you look at the cases of Snowden and assange, both have had their lives altered in at best in a kinda meh away, and at worst, basically destroyed, and they knew this would happen

[@Cruelcoil]

If we interact with people on a continuous basis the solution to the prisoner's dilemma is to treat people as they treat you Treat people the best you can the first time you met them, then treat them like they treat you

[@willemkossen]

the older i get, the more i think about the inherent evil that is part of our human condition. the depressing part of that is that it is not solvable. the crime and prisoners thing is just the battle in the schoolyard scaled up. we just never grow up...

[@O4C209]

Whenever someone is telling you something, be mindful of how it would benefit them.

[@toolbaggers]

Praise the lord! Hallelujah! 🤐🤐🤣🤣

[@pkmnhx43_27]

What if youre just saying that to benefit yourself

[@elidagdagan2780]

You can save others or save yourself. That’s the thing about snitches, they do it for their own benefit.

[@ScorpioneOrzion]

@@elidagdagan2780 And even if it looks that it doesn't benefit themself, it might benefit them later even more...

[@arctrix765]

✨politics✨

[@momentomoridoth2007]

story time; many years ago, my house got raided. my roommate was selling illegal things and I knew about it. they found nothing in my room, but stuff in their room, and in the other rooms of my other roommates who were complicit. I got charged as a party to a crime, and was subpoenaed. I took the stand, and said under oath that I knew nothing, knowing that they could not prove that I did know anything. everyone got off, except for me. after each roommates charges were dismissed, that left me to take the fall. none of my roommates snitched on me, but by keeping the criminal code, while also not being involved, I ended up taking the heat for the crimes of others. I argued that as a party to a crime, my charges should be dropped due to the people being charged with the crime itself, and not as a party having their charges dropped. I Was told that this is not how it works, and that I was guilty by association. I spent the next 3 years in prison.

[@IAmUnderscore]

That’s so incredibly unfair

[@TheKingBeyondEverything]

Now, 1st mind blow is coming back and we're also getting Crime Maths Stories, that _it's the greatest high._

[@galacticgeek2616]

This is where Social Network Theory can be helpful again, using it to determine those who are more likely to snitch, or even to determine the history of someone involved and whether or not they are likely to give an accurate story.

[@nerdmachine5551]

Wow. That line about the blindfolds. Gave me chills. I audibly said "woah" 💀

[@Vsauce2]

It's really interesting how imagery and symbolism we don't even think to question was so often VERY different in the past.

[@CTP909]

My problem with the prisoners dilemma is that it automatically assumes that the cops have enough to convict both and sentence to 2 years if neither talk. In reality the police suck at their jobs and are typically extremely dependent on a snitch to even get a conviction meaning that the 2 years on the reward matrix would be zero years. Which would make it equal if not the better choice to remain silent. Even in this video you stated that half of all death row inmates convictions were dependant on unreliable witnesses, which tells me that there are even more total cases including the ones that have reliable witnesses, which means more than half were dependent on a snitch and not competent police work.

[@Bunsdo]

I'm so used to Micheal randomly swapping topics and having it all tie in that when Kevin started talking about old fishing stuff I thought he was gonna bring that around to catching fish with bait like using an informant

[@IzzyTheDyspraxicArtist]

Whistleblowing and snitching are completely different. A snitch tells against their peers, a whistleblower tells against their superiors. Exposing mass war crimes and telling on your struggling friend for sealing a loaf of bread are not comparable in scale or morality.

[@cheese_vviz]

Great video, really liked it. However, I do feel obligated to point out how my little Italian heart absolutely collapsed on itself when you tried to say "Omertà" and "Pentito", although you were kinda close.

[@johnny7611]

15k yr old hooks was a smooth transition. I was like “hmmm, I would love to know how these old hooks relate to snitching”😂😂😂

[@alexdyk9813]

I live in a country where physical punishment used to be tolerated. The education system is very heavily exam oriented that primary school students have multiple homework assignments every day. When I was primary 6, our teacher appointed those sitting in the most front row as “assignment checkers” to check the assignments of all students sitting behind them (column). Any unfinished assignments should be reported and they would usually get smacked. Anyway before the class started I told casually my “best friend”, who was a checker but not mine, that there’s an assignment that I forgot to do. It was not an assignment that was supposed to be submitted by that day. To my surprise, she reported that to the teacher and when the teacher read the report, you could hear her confusion from the voice, as I was not sitting in her column. Nevertheless she quickly realised what happened (I didn’t protest) but couldn’t help but proceeded to act “justly” and gave me the cane. I never understand the reason for her actions as she didn’t receive any benefits at all. But experiencing betrayal at such young age (12 yo) taught me that if you are sharing something that you don’t want people to know, it will be known sooner or later. It’s like never tell your friends you are using illicit drugs, unless you are ready to have them reporting you to the police.

[@snaplemouton]

Lady justice is such a nice symbol of law and order, the meaning of her blindfold is great in regards of the individual but it also paint a darker side of justice, that she is blind to what's being placed on her scale.

[@chewy99.]

As for the prisoner dilemma, why would you snitch if you did something so bad you’d get 5 years? Then they’d just snitch on you and neither of you win.

[@WrightWorld]

The point of the prisoner's dilemma is that regardless what the other prisoner does, it's always in your benefit to snitch on the other. The social consequences may end up being far worse than any prison time avoided as a result, but that's not directly quantifiable within the scope of the prisoner's dilemma itself. The most intangible part of the social aspect is what are the consequences beyond the 5 year prison sentences if both prisoners snitch on each other? Will they both suffer additional social repercussions once released, or will the elapsed time with both parties removal from civil society dim memories of their transgressions aside from they both got what they deserved from one another? Though in the real world, their reputations will precede them inside the prison walls, and that will make for a very rough term of imprisonment for them both, assuming they even survive long enough to serve their full terms.

[@CrashSable]

@@WrightWorld The actual point of the Prisoner's Dilemma is that in the long-term it encourages teamwork and cooperation against a common enemy. You can claim all you want that snitching is the better option because it's zero or five years vs two or ten, but when considered from the perspective of both prisoners at once, it's four combined years vs ten - not snitching is the better option.

[@SgtSupaman]

@@CrashSable , it does encourage teamwork, but it isn't "the actual point" because that teamwork has to be on blind faith. As an individual, you don't care that the combined sentence for every option except both staying quiet is 10 years. All you care about is the possibility to have 0 time behind bars because the other prisoner thought y'all would work together to get the 2 year sentences, or, conversely, not getting screwed over by the other prisoner because you know they would try to get the 0 option. That is precisely why it is a dilemma. For everyone's benefit, there is a clear option, but individuals look more to their own benefit over that of the group (especially in an increasingly self-centered society).

[@IndexInvestingWithCole]

“Why do snitches get stitches? I’LL NEVER TELL!” - Kevin “Tight Lips”

[@auntiegarfunkel]

I always thought that getting "stitches" implied that snitches would get stabbed by the mafia for ratting out

[@bscutajar]

That's exactly what it means??

[@livethefuture2492]

"Impartial...or just ignorant" - thats an amazing quote. Really makes you see the double meaning behind the sybols and imagery we are so accustomed to.

[@koobs4549]

The burden of proof is on the state & these loopholes they use to coerce an outcome should be illegal. It’s very simple, either you have evidence or you don’t, if you have no evidence, you shouldn’t be allowed to bring a charge. We like to pretend that we believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty but we tend to throw that out the window when we “know” they did it.

[@RGC_animation]

Snitching is bad, especially when done on you, but "it's not that bad!" when you have to do it.

[@Ak4ntor]

Amazing Episode, i love when things get me to discuss with my friends and family. Only thing is i would wish that we would get more links to the things talked about, i checked the description but there was only an extra on the prisoners dilemma. Like the FBI talk etc. Still love to see this channel come back to life :)

[@Vsauce2]

Hey Ak4ntor, usually there are quite a few source links but this one came from so many places, with no specific sources being used to a significant degree, that the best way forward seemed to be to let people pore over the Stanford Prisoner's Dilemma article and then take it from there.

[@Ak4ntor]

@@Vsauce2 Oh this makes a lot of sense! Thank you for the quick answer! Cant wait to see more amazing content ~

[@cltuxunink]

@@Vsauce2 could you please put the cyrillic text you mention when talking about the kgb in the description

[@josephsalomone]

Surprised you didn't mention the case coming out of Georgia where the Police would ask informants to lie in order to prevent the Police of being convicted of a crime.

[@quintessenceSL]

I'd add to this charges of conspiracy, where the crime was never committed, only planned and discussed, having sentences equal to (and sometimes more) than committing the crime! The notion of informants (especially with the long history of police instigators) under these conditions makes the entire notion of justice a joke.

[@SgtSupaman]

So if someone had come up with an entire plan to murder you and your family and dispose of your bodies so they wouldn't get caught, not just made an off-hand remark about killing, but actually knew when and where they were going to do it, but they got caught before they could put the plan in motion, you don't think they should be charged on something equivalent to murder? If they hadn't been stopped, you and your family would all be dead. It can't be attempted murder, because they never actually got to attempt it, but the intent was there all the same. It isn't the charge that's the problem, it is the way people misuse it.

[@quintessenceSL]

@@SgtSupaman So I had a think about this, and these are the problems. From your post, I can relay your idea of killing my family (see what I did) to the police, and what would be your defense? That is the problem with informants. Per the rest, it essentially comes down to Minority Report. No one has any precognition of actually knowing the context nor the result. It is thought crime, and if the charge is misused, what are the protections against?

[@SgtSupaman]

@@quintessenceSL , you can't get conspiracy to commit murder from my post. You've been watching too many dystopian movies. Note how my post specifically mentions "not ... an off-hand remark". There is a much higher burden of proof involved than you think there is. You have no way of proving I have any plans whatsoever of actually killing your family (or that I even know who your family is). So, if you really think this is all it takes, report me to a police station and see what comes of it. Hopefully they'll be professional enough to wait for you to leave before they laugh.

[@quintessenceSL]

@@SgtSupaman I actually volunteer with prisoners and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. "Conspiracy laws are fairly malleable, and have been used by federal prosecutors to bring down a wide swath of people for the same plot. For instance, they have been used to hold large groups of young men of color responsible for one gang’s crimes, despite varying levels of involvement. " - Marshal Project "But prosecutors needed to prove very little by way of concrete conduct to obtain a conviction under the law. There is no need to show any particular violent crime, said Robert M. Chesney, a law professor at Wake Forest University and the author of a recent law review article on conspiracy charges in terrorism prosecutions. You don't have to specify the particular means used to carry out the crime." - ACLU

[@orlandomoreno6168]

​@@SgtSupaman If that person has no prior violent crime history, you can't be that certain that they would not change their mind. I think people should be convicted if they prove themselves dangerous, rather than punished, and only as long as they are dangerous. Not as in Minority Report or Psycho-Pass; they have to actually do something. Having planned something needs to have a way less severe sentence than trying it or doing it because 1 it's trying to try. 2 You can't prove an intention unless you have a confession. 3 You have to weight the probability of the act being really attempted, as they might not have attempted it.

[@Bos187]

0:41 so that song has an English version huh? I looked up it's lyrics, and it's a lot more reasonable that the Dutch one, making exceptions for dangerous situations and such. Meanwhile the Dutch version (translated) be like: _Klikspaan_ *(tattletale)* _Boterspaan_ *(butterspoon)* [the Dutch words rhyme, that's the only reason this word is here] _Je mag niet noor mijn straatje gaan_ *(you may not go down my alley)* [proverbial speech, kind of like an opposite of "that's right up my alley"] _Hondje zal je bijten_ *(doggy will bite you)* _Poesje zal je krabbelen_ *(kitty will scratch you)* _Komt van al dat babbelen_ *(that's what you get for yapping)*

[@lampekartoffel]

I had completely forgotten how much I enjoy watching/listening to these videos! I don't even know why I stopped...

[@Vsauce2]

hey sabina, the best time to keep going was yesterday but the 2nd best time to keep watching is right now more videos on the way!

[@NousSpeak]

The jailhouse snitch operates a little bit differently than is conventionally understood. When you are in jail you will meet someone who asks you why you are in jail (jail is different from prison) and says they might be able to help you with your case as they know a bit about the law. The problem is the jailhouse snitch has no intention of helping you. They want to learn enough about your case that they can provide false testimony against you and strike a deal with the prosecutor. The best response in this scenario is to tell the jailhouse snitch, "I don't want to discuss my case."

[@mevana81]

glad to see you back on youtube ! thx as usual for your time and effort

[@Vsauce2]

Thanks, mevana, we're already working on several more videos, so stay tuned

[@ehgo6905]

When I was young I got in trouble for telling the teacher someone took something from another kid. The kid didn"t notice and never got it back.

[@piotrj195]

4:18 Kevin hitting us with a subliminal spoiler of a 20 years old show

[@shashipancholi]

11:25 FunFact: you can only be pardoned for crimes you committed You can be exonerated if you didn’t do the crime but the legal system can never declare you innocent

[@SgtSupaman]

Because no one is innocent. Everyone is guilty of something.

[@arthaiser]

there is a story in spain called "el crimen de cuenca" or cuenca´s crime, is something that happened around 1910. in a village in cuenca there were 3 men working as sheperds, one day one of them went missing. the investigation ended with the other two sentenced to like 10 years in prison and almost death, they confessed to murdering him after the interrogation (some sources said that they acussed each other, other sources say they admitted it themselves). is like a prisoners dilemma in itself. a while after doing the 10 years , the third man showed up looking for his birth certificate so he could marry or something on those lines, he moved to another village years ago and was unaware of his murder

[@frozen1654]

I missed your videos and loved this one so much! can't wait for the next one

[@Vsauce2]

Thanks, Frozen -- working on several right now, so stick around

[@roapostol]

Why do snitches get stitches? Because they keep tearing open their big mouths! But in all seriousness, while it's important to weigh the risks and benefits of reporting wrongdoing, it's always better to speak up and do the right thing. Just maybe try not to be too big of a blabbermouth about it!

[@O4C209]

A snitch isn't someone that reports wrong doing, it's someone that turns in a "partner in crime" for a reward. Witnesses are not snitches.

[@こく月X]

@@O4C209 thank you, people seem to miss this fact.

[@harrietjameson]

@Ballzwizard so you cant speak up if it will hurt someone else? like if someone murdered your entire family, you cant deport it because that would get them on death row?

[@rachelblake2350]

This assumes one has a *justice* system, and it not mere a *legal* system.

[@sleier]

@@Beesnorter If you stand up for justice, don't expect justice to stand up for you.

[@ramppappia]

in Italy kids say "chi fa la spia non è figlio di Maria" [those who snitch aren't Mary's children] if you're not christian it's fine you can snitch all you want/s

[@Vsauce2]

Huhhhh, that's really interesting. I bet there are similarly-themed sayings in every culture

[@loveadeola]

It all depends on who you're stitching on. A member of a brutal gang with a family will rather stay silent and take his 10 years in prison, than snitch and gain freedom only to lose his wife and kids and eventually his life.

[@darly5448]

Really honest of you to admit you don't have a clear cut solution to the issue, good stuff!!

[@Vsauce2]

Thanks, some ideas are just so complex that there's probably not a perfect solution. So, might as well be honest about that.

[@Jabersson]

You could not have followed "the future of vsauce2" with a more classic vsauce-y topic. Incredible

[@Vsauce2]

Thanks, Jabberson -- making this video felt like bringing together all the different formats in a decade of Vsauce2, but with a new twist. Really love making these, so it's awesome to hear you enjoyed it!

[@MattTBN]

Snitching, stitching, and fishing. I got my weekend all planned.

[@CovocNexus]

There's a player in the game you keep forgetting. Society. Imagine how much harder it would be to solve crimes if people didn't cooperate with police.

[@Naro_Rivers]

Snitches get stitches… unless the snitches are all dog piling on a scapegoat.

[@NEPAAlchey]

A guy convicted of forgery lied? I am shocked. How could trained detectives see that coming!?

[@chickenmonger123]

That’s why it’s an act of faith to choose trust. Because in your estimation the prospect that someone might choose right despite the gain of wrong is worth more than the number. Not in every situation. But there are many where the numbers are not the point. The point is giving opportunity for others to choose right.

[@doguezter7047]

Rats with wings are bats

[@ThePixelated_kris]

And bedbugs love bats so ig a bedbug is a cockroach in ants clothing

[@magmalabs3472]

This is so ridiculous. Imagine that somebody really close to you was murdered. You have evidence of who did it, and you turn it in. Then, the authorities arrest and execute you because you snitched on the murderer, and the killer gets away scot free. You can't win, you can't even avoid losing.

[@daxterthefox]

That ad transition was smoother than my brain 💀

[@MugenDino5555]

Amazing video as always ❤️ You conveyed the meaning of "Omertà" in a simple yet clear way, great job! As an Italian myself, I can appreciate it very much. That said, I don't want to sound pretentious or rude, but I've got only one thing to correct you on, and that's the pronunciation of the word "Omertà" itself. The last letter of "Omertà" has a stress on it that changes how the word is supposed to be pronounced. Without it you end up with "Omerta", (which is how you pronounced it in the video). If we were to visualize that stress, it would end up like this: "Omérta", and not the correct "Omertà". I hope I was clear enough and once again I congratulate you guys on another amazing video! Cheers!

[@deyfuck]

Are you saying it's oh-mer-TA, rather than oh-MER-ta?

[@Nightcrawler333]

Great video. Neatly presented. Enjoyed watching this 👍👍

[@RedLine_Renesis]

Companies do this all the time. Someone steps over their toes, boom - lawsuit. It's like telling mommy the bully stole their lunch money.

[@emile_jeanne]

I've never been caught off guard that much by an ad before! I thought you were about to talk about fishing in relation to snitching for some reason. That was a genius integration!

[@Vsauce2]

Ha! They're all about catching the big fish, it's just a different type of lure... :)

[@emile_jeanne]

@@Vsauce2 True that!

[@nicktepe9907]

Mans got evicted for forgery, and then forged a whole ass confession to murder to get free, what a legend XD

[@samcmusic3031]

1:46 how do you catch the first pigeon?

[@rustythecrown9317]

Hit it with a stool.

[@Vsauce2]

with a st-- wait

[@YanYanicantbelievethistakenffs]

I never understood the snitches get stiches. I got branded as many different things due to not bending against social pressure. But at the end it seems like that makes you trustworthy and udually the right people value that.

[@Pedrocas]

but hey, that's just a theory, A GAME THEORY

[@Il_panda]

and the game is called life

[@mskadwa]

2:04 Is a penguin a rat with wings?

[@richi3035]

0:09 a GAAAAME THEORY

[@farzamimani5339]

God the classic v sauce Jake chudnow music gets me every time

[@sumirunihon]

9:27 That voice crack crack. Youch!

[@anythingyoucando1546]

I think it is very difficult in court when it turns into a, "he says/she says" scenario. Yet a judgement has to be made anyways.

[@zoeevans543]

this is the first time a fishing game has ever sounded intresting. Still not doing it, but good job.

[@ryan-mg1er]

Did anyone else get a childhood flashback they can’t quite remember?

[@konstak05]

But that's only a theory. A GAMEEE THEORY

[@mochiman6307]

Have never been intrested in a vsauce video in years aside from this

[@Werdxp]

~ Snitchin' Stichin' and Fishin' ~

[@thatwolfdude018]

I can’t believe you explained the science of “fuck around and find out”

[@Vsauce2]

Well, I mean, ya know...

[@TheDuckofDoom.]

08:50 a forger didn't get away, an attempted first degree double murderer got away, The false information was made with full knowledge and premeditation of the resulting death penalty.

[@JamieDombroski]

thank you for focusing on the absolute mess that is the modern justice system in a very insightful and meaningful way! keep it up.

[@opaio9]

My goodness this crime series videos are good! Keep it going Kevin!

[@Vsauce2]

Thanks, Bruno -- working on 2 more right now!

[@actualzelda]

@@Vsauce2 can'twait

[@sKitZoBonKa]

3:00 like the simplicity of it...easy to understand

[@handsini1281]

Hey Kevin, can you provide the source where you got this idea from? I have been writting this exact idea for a paper for about a year and I'd love to see who else has written about it.

[@Vsauce2]

It came from weeks and weeks of reading, way too many sources to list. But the Stanford link in the description is probably the most comprehensive source for all things Prisoner's Dilemma, which you can then start thinking about in other contexts. Go down those rabbit holes, keep pulling threads, and eventually it starts to come together.

[@CreatorLovesLegos]

But thats just a theory! A GAME THEORY!!!

[@Mister_NO.]

This channel has come far, from teaching kids science to teaching kids that snitches get stitches. Theory + practical knowledge, the circle is complete. 🤓

[@Vsauce2]

it is the Vsauce2 ouroboros

[@EveningOfficer]

“That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a maxim that has been long and generally approved; never, that I know of, controverted.” -Benjamin Franklin

[@Vsauce2]

I'd love to see a poll of 1,000 people about how many innocent people would be an acceptable sacrifice to guarantee justice.

[@jmanj3917]

9:40 You seem to be operating under the assumption that the information given by the informants is the sole piece of evidence that the police use to see the whole picture. It isn't. And when the information given by the informant is contradictory to other sources, the snitch can quickly lose their payments and, more importantly, their protection by the police.

[@kaedenchin6521]

But that's just a theory, a GAME THEORY!

[@faenethlorhalien]

Assange and Snowden are heroes.

[@marcinchreptowicz6843]

Imagine pushing the idea to kids that they shouldnt "snitch" and then being surprised by the bullying rates in the US hahaha what a clown country

[@marcinchreptowicz6843]

@@Vorniforous isnt it used in the US as well? Thats my point

[@marcinchreptowicz6843]

@@Vorniforous many guns dont originate from US yet its the US of A which has the shool shooting problem

[@johnrainsman6650]

Ugh, a student leader at my college job snitched on me. We're a catering business, and she had delivered large coffee dispensers and snacks to this study lounge at the university's largest building. They're right there on a table; _anyone_ could pass them. I'm not a student anymore, but I still get to work on campus and I had some paperwork to do. So yeah, I grabbed a cup of coffee to drink and relax me while I work. Decaf, so that caffeine can be saved for those who need to stay focused and awake for finals. And I anticipated a lot of coffee would be left over anyway; happens a lot, and lots of college students don't drink coffee. Well, my boss lectured me the next day at work, for taking what was exclusively for the students. It's not like it was a formal rule or there was a note or sign by the stuff. My boss revealed the student leader saw me through the window while driving away. Well, I told said leader off, and she wouldn't take responsibility. She said, "I'm sorry, John, but I had to tell her. You were doing something you weren't supposed to do. Right is right, wrong is wrong." Talk about being a goodie-two-shoes. She could've just left it alone. It was one cup of decaf, that was very much left over, and _anyone_ could've gotten a drink or snack while passing by.

[@lukeburris1011]

Each prisoner taking a 2 year sentence is the best case scenario overall for them, therefore if you increase the punishment for being selfish, (snitch and get stitches), then people are more likely to make the "better" choice of each taking a 2 year punishment and not getting punishment past that.

[@BirdsTheWurd]

More Vsauce2 please and thank you. 👍

[@Vsauce2]

More on the way, just filmed a Mind Blow today!

[@BirdsTheWurd]

@@Vsauce2 Yesssss

[@MarkParkTech]

I would have thought that Stiedl wouldn't be pardoned, because to be pardoned, you need to be guilty. I would have thought that his sentence would be vacated and charges dropped. Of course, he would be awarded damages as well. As I'm not a lawyer by any stretch, I could definitely be mistaken.

[@XxXDeadlykingdxXxX]

This type of video is much more interesting, keep it up!