The Games Workshop Promise... and What Happens When It's Broken

[@gedmcloughlin866]

I've socks older than some of the models being discontinued

[@minacapella8319]

I got underwear far, far older, that is still in really good shape.

[@hll705]

I have food older than some of these kits. Frozen, or pickled, but still.

[@KevinoftheCosmos]

s a m e

[@housecaldwell]

What is sad to me is that the original GW promise was "We built this cool thing; come and play in it and play friendly games with your friends." There are 1000 space marine chapters because that was an invitation to create your own. The Ultramarines, Blood Angels, etc were just meant as examples "here's what we made, now make your own." Want a tank? Here's a deoderant bottle with a spoon and a dowel glued to it - you can do that, too! It was all an invitation to be creatve and have fun with your mates (as the Brits would say).

[@hodldawg]

Exactly. Now if you're not playing lore established chapters with their special characters you're screwed.

[@WuthrandfromAriadna]

​@@hodldawgin the old Space Marine codex, it was written that you could use any special character with any chapter by changing name. For example you could use Lysander, the Imperial fist terminator captain, for any first compagny captain. That's why you had so many archetypal characters. Chapter Master, librarian, bike captain, jumpack captain...

[@MrThomaskirchner]

Yep. When it wasnt an absolute reaming to purchase an army back in the mid 90s... well.. you could actually be creative with it. Then they got greedy.

[@Floppy-1235]

Folks, you see your self as fans, you are nothing but a money bag for private equity, hedgefunds and shareholders.

[@jamesvalentine2845]

To be fair to GW (which is rare) you can still do ALL those things. The real issue is the fanbase/community will hate you for it and judge you and tell you no. GW never had and still has no issues with my purple Dark Angel successor chapter... However everyone else does. GW has no issues with my Leman Russ built off of a Sherman or a Churchill (outside not using it in store which is 100% understandable)... everyone else does. GW has no issue I have my own fluff and lore for my things.... everyone else does.

[@elfbait3774]

As somebody who played a good sized Rogue Trader era Squat army, I can say the promise has been broken almost as far back as the game has existed. I also saw major changes in my other armies, Imperial Guard and Bretonnians.

[@carminecommander4297]

Necrons, though not a range nuking had a pretty major change, I miss the old Necrons

[@elfbait3774]

@@carminecommander4297 I seem to carry a cursed touch when it comes to WArhammer armies 40K and fantasy. I am 3 for 3 on major shifts in the army.

[@elfbait3774]

@@carminecommander4297 I'd also say that a substantial enough shift in a range can be as bad as a range nuking.

[@mattl_]

I didn’t buy any 40k armies until Votann came back. That’s how much it annoyed me. Now I have them I don’t want to play modern 40k

[@elfbait3774]

@@mattl_ see, "Votann came back" is even a problem for me. I see it more as Votann came about for the first time. They aren't the Squats of old. they don't even resemble them in the least.

[@joshbecka6110]

Ah man, that was such a Canadian suorry for Beastman players.

[@Jack-cc3qm]

Playing GW games is like being in an abusive relationship. You invest time, money, effort and love. They ignore you and violate your trust until it breaks.

[@mwu2712]

When someone says "GW fanboy," all I hear is "prison bi tch with Stockholm Syndrome"

[@marcbennett9232]

so true! if games workshop could keep up the model releases they would try to force you to rebuy your models every year.

[@YakouHikoichi]

That's why 3d printing and Warhammer resin exists Joytoy × Warhammer is also a great alternative, they don't require you to paint it, but you can do it, besides it's somehow cheaper than most GW armies despite joytoy Warhammer figures, having diecast and more details than any GW armies

[@davidshea6272]

Whats stunning is that this issue isn't drawing nearly as much ire as the Femstodes thing. Its bonkers that people aren't flipping out about this more.

[@physcho84]

I've seen it suggested that this was intentional. I don't think they are that competent.

[@emzetkin1100]

Femstodes open up such interesting lore opportunities tho, like, their existence implies that the process of making a custodian isn't bound by the logic of biology.

[@davidshea6272]

@@emzetkin1100 Nothing in 40k is bound by the logic of biology.

[@Greg-uc7jp]

It’s because largely the people upset about the female Custodes aren’t part of the hobby anyway.

[@Mark-gr1ng]

I'll take a short story about a female beastman if it meant we get to keep them 😔

[@geecko_6963]

For me, the problem of the Primaris models was that they were NOT replacing the old one, people like me wanted true scale tactical marine, true scale terminators, devastator, etc. And we got a new army, with different rules in the same codex, with badly written lore to explain it, and i knew that they would send the old stuff to the bin. What i wanted was a way to update my army little by little, retiring my old whirlwind, old tactical, etc.

[@DestroyYouAlot]

Frankly, while I wouldn't _buy_ upscaled versions of classic models, refreshing the range in this way would at least let me play my existing Marine forces. Zero interest in the hover tank or the Mario Kart models.

[@Sicsempertyranus313]

Oh man I agree. Like I like the models but please bring back the old unit composition like regular old marines. Just with new fancy larger models and new options.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

What like they did with Gaurd? Just make them HD and don't even say this is all new stuff made by call?

[@arionofotherworld]

I can't work out why they didn't just introduce the Primaris as just an armour upgrade, like when the smaller Mk6's were replaced by the larger Mk7's in the 1990's.

[@ChairmanMjau]

Why stop playing with older editions if you like them better?

[@charlesweinert4116]

I’ve recently started regularly playing, and immensely enjoying, 2nd Ed 40k. One of the advantages of that is my game is frozen in time. It will never be retconned, retired, have meta swings, etc. I play new games too, but I love that I can play 40k without the constant churn to keep up on the meta.

[@albertovelaluis8512]

Best edition ever. I still play it with my friends.

[@NeoHellPoet]

There's no churn to keep up with the meta unless you're playing competitive. People really like to exagerate the impact of the meta and meta chasing. While there are clearly armies that are better and armies that are worse, skill is the main difference maker. People were saying Imperial Guard was trash, then they got a nerf and suddenly they were somehow S Tier. People just figured out how to play them. People also figured out how to play against some of the stronger armies. A good player with a bad army they're familiar with is always favored vs a bad player with the best army or an OK player with a new army. Other than the truly broken Eldar nonsense that ended games in turn 1 in early 10th, it's honestly been a pretty balanced edition. People are a bit pissed that their Codex isn't an automatic power boost but then in every previous edition they were pissed that every new codex was more power creep

[@HelmAnneruron]

​@@NeoHellPoet "Keeping up with the meta" is more about trying to win and seething when one loses. It's learning new rules for your army, and more importantly learning new rules so you can understand what each of your opponents' armies is doing and play a meaningful interactive game instead of solitaire tactics. It's apologising to your friend because your totally reasonable army of last edition now wipes the floor with their army, or because your assault cannon has better stats for fewer points than their, apparently identical, assault cannon. Thankfully all this is avoidable by spending time with older, curated editions with a group of like-minded friends.

[@dd11111]

Same here, I've got only a couple more fantasy units to buy and then I'm retiring to the peace and security of my little slice of 6th/7th edition

[@AmarilOfLoren]

I would love it if there were a solid resurgence of 2nd Ed in my area....maybe even 3rd so my Salamanders and Deathwing get to see sunlight again.

[@herethical]

As someone still in school with a very fixed income, anything resembling a 'cycling out' of models/warbands would immediately make the hobby unaffordable for me. This release cycle of bloat->cut bloat->bloat etc. is unsustainable, and it seems like GW is trying to burn people out of the hobby since they make more profit short term, but this kills the community in the long-term.

[@Shmimbleton]

I'm afraid your wrong. Not releasing new models would be unsustainable, because sales would drop off. Not cutting models would be unsustainable too, because their inventory would get too big. The release and cut cycle is sensible business

[@theandf]

@@Shmimbleton I took it as "unsustainable for someone still in school with a very fixed income". GW business model makes sense to them, of course, but it's hard on customers and treats them as "expendable" in a way. It works (for the business), but it's not respectful for customers.

[@herethical]

Yeah exactly this. It may be affordable and sustainable for GW's shareholders, but what about the wargaming community? GW seems only to care about their customers who are willing to spend money on multiple of their big box set releases. Even though I have money I want to spend on the hobby, I simply can't afford big box releases every year. Yet box sets bring the most money for GW (whether their customers build their models or not) so these will all that they will release. GW is using FOMO and limited run 'value boxes' to urge people to spend more than they'd want to on this hobby. This is just pretty clearly anti-consumer. This is how you get massive piles of shame because GW never announces their releases until very close to the limited window release date, encouraging players to buy more models than they can actually build/paint. Add a seasonal rotation on top to take care of the bloat you've created, and they've pushed me (and others like me) out of the hobby. That means less tournament attendance, less local game store support, smaller communities. This is bad even for the people who can afford to keep up with GW's schedule.

[@LordVader1094]

@@Shmimbleton Of course new models need to be released. They've done that forever. Just make new units, or make new sculpts of old units. Nobody said it isn't sensible FOR GW because they're doing it. It's just not sustainable for the wargaming community that built GW in the first place.

[@Mikey__R]

It's partly a consequence of having a separate army list unit entry for each load out. If they had "melee unit with choice of weapons" then one unit entry would work for multiple model kits. But since each SKU has a unique unit entry, more SKUs means more rules bloat, which needs trimming back over time.

[@fenreer01]

"The first was canceling Warhammer Fantasy..." New here, eh? First time something was squatted? Squatted... what an odd word that's been bandied about over the past twenty-some years...

[@willschoonover8654]

All these sweet summer children don't know what it was like to experience edition changes in the 90s. I avoided being squatted, but the next time around I had Harlequins and Genestealer Cults and then I just didn't. Took me 15 years to care about a Warhammer game again.

[@robwallace6787]

I never got over the change from 2nd Edition to 3rd. I stuck it out to play with my friends, but I've missed entire editions along the way. I can only imagine how much more I'd have enjoyed the hobby if things were different. I'm so glad for One Page Rules.

[@madmoody100]

I played squats in tournaments during 2nd edition. I tried to keep going halfheartedly into third as I also had an ork army - but when your bolter armed boys become low quality 'shooter boys' and the majority of figures you have aren't set up for close combat it really was a blow. I never played after 3rd. I still have both of those armies and happily play rogue trader and second whenever given the opportunity. Fantasy never hit me like that as I never played fantasy.

[@TheRunningLeopard]

Aren’t they coming back now? Coming from someone who is interested in them.

[@madmoody100]

League of vottann aren't 'squats' imo.​@@TheRunningLeopard

[@GlassHalfDead]

Double Hello!!

[@chasertalk]

I like your articulation of GW promise, especially since I see it’s echo in Wizards of the Coast and MtG’s continued role in the market.

[@Ultr4l0f]

Ah. Magic. They do so much right.... and so much terribly wrong. It wasnt rhat long ago we had Magic 30th as the culmination. What a dumpster fire that was.

[@gregorycafiero9688]

It's like anything. Some decisions are made by people with passion for the product, and some decisions are made by those only interested in the bottom line.

[@mzaite]

@@gregorycafiero9688The bottom line is the only reason the product exists and keeps being made. Don’t tie your fun to capitalism. There’s enough materials out there that if GW or Hasbro/WotC folded tomorrow, the games can still be played perfectly well.

[@CanalTremocos]

Let's hope it has nothing to do with the influx of American investor funds as shareholders. Our old friends Black Rock and Vanguard own 5% of stock each. That is about the same position they have on WotC...

[@physcho84]

I am so glad to see a youtuber talk about this. I played from 2nd ed 40k in the mid 90s and for years I always said 'yeah the minis are expensive but GW have comitted to let you use them forever'. Then AoS hit and I was like 'ok... fine I guess, fantasy was never a huge seller and this is their BS IP strategy. Fine... Then when Primaris came the writing was on the wall for me. Also the change of the basing rules which for years was 'if the mini shipped with base X you could keep using base X' which is now 'must be on Base Y'. I don't 'hate' GW, frankly by now I just don't care. They are a publicly traded company doing what publicly traded companies do.

[@billiondollarclownfarm]

3:33 lol are those the boyz that are currently sitting on my work bench great video i love when you do miniature culture video essays, just rewatched your third edition box review too

[@gummybread]

The only games workshop promise you can trust is “Shut up and give us your money, we’re doing whatever we want and you’ll eat it off the plate” as proven by... the last 30 years of games workshop?

[@WithTheGrain]

As someone with some old Squats and Space Dwarfs, I have some thoughts on the first time the promise was broken…

[@DiscourseMinis]

I already miss all the Chaos warbands. I always loved their pulpy Conan vibe, and none of the more recent warbands have quite matched them since :(

[@somerandomguy525]

personally i think people are too caught up with the idea of gw retiring or creating new minis, those miniatures will be usable no matter when, even when they are retired, even old 2nd edition or 3rd edition rules can still be used if people are willing, we can build primaris squad like good old tactical squad when eventually we have all the heavy or special weapons. nothing can stop gw from us doing what we want with our purchased minis, make a competition using old rules etc, create your own homebrew rules etc, which i think is the best thing about miniature gaming in general

[@thomasace2547]

As someone that has StormCast GW is removing 65% of my entire army from play

[@CreationDominion]

But you can still play with them. You still have the models and the rules. Honestly unless ita tournament what does it matter?

[@Mr424242424242424242]

@@CreationDominion But GW only considers tournaments in balancing, so why is it unfair for a player to share that same monofocus, especially since some communities do use the general rule of requiring tournament rule compliant armies, even for casual play.

[@CreationDominion]

@@Mr424242424242424242 because it was balanced when the edition suddenly "ceased to exist" and if both people playing have those armies, or close to them then proxies and not having the exact correct model matters only as much as it does to the people actually playing...

[@mzaite]

@@Mr424242424242424242The game you play, can be balanced however the player body wants it to. You just have to put in your own effort, not rely solely from commandments on high.

[@Bluecho4]

@@Mr424242424242424242 And, of course, if Legends rules for a unit are bad, they STAY bad for as long as that Warscroll keeps being used. Just ask people with old Bretonnia model collections, who got one set of AoS Legends Warscrolls at the start of 1st ed, and had to use those for multiple editions. (Not that Bretonnia fans were exactly unused to employing old, outdated rules...)

[@Zeke_Plus]

Why isn’t the solution miniature-agnostic rules? That way I never lose any minis ever.

[@lolaldanee2743]

I'd say every game is miniature agnostic unless you play with the wrong people, the police ain't comin to my house to stop me use my stuff like I want. Well I guess I could understand it being weird fielding Tyranids as Roman Legionaries, but heck

[@Zeke_Plus]

@@lolaldanee2743 - I mean, I guess you’re right… but it’s nice to field figures I can stat myself. It’s like leaving a dictatorship for an anarcho-syndicalist commune.

[@gregorycafiero9688]

​@lolaldanee2743 GW even said as much. Keep using your models in a casual setting, everything is getting rules before being retired or able to be used as proxies, and they made AOS not care about weapons on the models so it's even more proxy friendly. This only impacts the smallest subset of the hobby, the hardcore official comp players, but this decision didn't impact them either since none of the old stuff even saw play. Standardization at high end play is needed because God comp players CAN be scummy and try to game the system however they can, so I get nipping the model issue in the bud, too.

[@hankjansen1580]

Because GW are a company that sells miniatures. Mantic Kings of War or One Page Rules both offer a (better in a lot of ways) miniature-agnostic ruleset - the hobby is tabletop wargaming, GW are just the current largest fish in the pond.

[@haraldbredsdorff2699]

First break of the promise, would probably be either the squats, or end of epic. And how they spent the next 20 years, taunting the people who wanted the squats back.

[@thequestbro]

Squats were never a defined faction. They had a few units you could drop into imperial guard lists but they were never a WHOLE FACTION just removed from the ecosystem like firstborn Marines are.

[@haraldbredsdorff2699]

@@thequestbro They where a separate faction in epic/titian and main game. You could use them as allies, just like space marines and imperial guards could be allies. But they really was a separate faction. They had more different models in the book, than current Votann have. Basic unit, heavy weapon unit, heavy armor unit, bike units, just from the top of my head.

[@harbl99]

@@thequestbro That's weird, because my red book Compendium has the Squat army list, and it's just as big and fleshed out as the Space Marine, Harlequin, etc. lists in the book.

[@TheRoamingbison]

I have a bunch of the Stormcast models that got squatted, some still on sprues, and I'm still more upset for the Beastmen players. I've played against them with one of the guys at my FLGS and I think they are a cool army. I really hate the GW policy of only allowing armies to be played in one game.

[@sndgamingchannel9279]

I thoroughly enjoyed spending £400 on my stormcast army and painting them for 100 hours and then it getting binned.

[@OmegaDestroyer99]

One big advantage of Blood Bowl is that it has greater immunity to model discontinuation and unnecessary revision than other properties.

[@adrianscott4288]

I wouldn't be so sure. GW have a habit of releasing new versions of existing units, with a slightly different weapon load out (eg. Khorne berserkers with no champion upgrades but two eviscerator upgrades for the squad). It basically makes your old models obsolete (unless you buy/convert that extra stuff), without "officially" making them unplayable. I guarantee that when GW releases a new edition of Bloodbowl, they'll do the same thing. There'll be new or different positionals with every new team they re-release.

[@ooohooohooo3]

Pour one out for the half painted Skaven arch warlock that's been sitting on my desk for 2 years

[@nyalice53]

Arch-warlock is definitely getting an updated model instead of being retired entirely, and the classic Ikit model still holds up pretty well, I think you’re pretty safe

[@HerbaceousM8]

i think i saw a leak for that model actually. maybe it was something similar

[@Ultr4l0f]

That sucks. But. You are always welcome to put em on square bases and join The Old World.

[@nyalice53]

@@HerbaceousM8 AFAIK there's two full leaks of sprues that accidentally got packaged and sent out; One is a push-fit model of the ratling gun warmachine seen in the trailer, and the other is a single skaven holding an unknown weapon in a pose similar to the Warlock Bombardier, but the rat himself is pretty unadorned so most likely part of a unit and not a new/replacement hero

[@CdrChaos]

Retiring ancient models for ones sculpted this century is understandable. Retiring models not even old enough to attend Kindergarten without any replacements for them? That's a bridge too far.

[@johnsnow5968]

A while back I picked up a ton of metal Harlequins from rogue trader for an absolute steal from a garage sale. Many were broken - intentionally. Arms had been clippered off, and plasticard wrist-blades had been glued on. Several were chopped at the waist. As I slowly worked my way through painstakingly restoring what i could, converting what I was missing with bits from my collection, I was reminded of Roman statues. Those marble statues are what we think of when we think "permanence". But, did you know, many of the statues with holes, broken noses, broken off Limbs were not likely just broken by the vagaries of time, but intentionally broken by Romans. It was popular to update the statuary of your ancestors to give them facial features that resemble the current ceasar or prominent noble families, usually with cheaper materials. Regardless, the point here is: this is a cycle as old as GW itself. The act of CHOOSING NOT TO CARE, choosing not to modify, choosing to proxy whatever as whatever and simply enjoy whatever you want to enjoy, buy whatever you want to buy and don't replace whatever you don't want to replace.

[@Anacher429]

I was an old school WHFB player, still playing 8th ed when it got cancelled. While that pissed me off some, what was worse was AOS 1st ed. It's not like they replaced the game with something playable or usable similar to what they had built up previously. That was the part that made me angrier. We did eventually give AOS a chance when 2nd ed came out, and now we enjoy playing it, but all that craziness led us to start playing Infinity, which we still play now too.

[@VixenIcaza]

Yeah. My playgroup wanted rank and flank not "fantasy 40k" as they put it. As such they still refuse to even look at it. With the addition of Codex creep in 40k in that era we all pretty much left GW games all together. I have only come back with 40k 10th and Underworlds and almost all the rest haven't.

[@ldeming]

Infinity is tons of fun.

[@fthat5442]

The reason they cannot give a reason is because it's purely business reasons and will not translate well if they tried to explain it.

[@tsmcgu]

4:00 - promises were broken years before this, see Squats and Chaos Dwarves in the 90s

[@exquisitecorpse4917]

While there is a certain amount of justifiable annoyance with these events (particularly the wholesale murder of Fantasy), I will also say that there's a certain degree of disingenuous fandom that bubbles up. Beastmen were an army that almost no one cared about two months ago...I'm sure there are people for whom it's their favorite, and I feel bad on their behalf (heck, I feel bad for how GW was treating their army BEFORE it got canned!), but most of the rage over Beastmen was about the general principle...it wasn't about saving a beloved army that they themselves collected. Similarly, everyone has decided that the Sisters of Silence are their absolute favorite Warhammer subfaction. They LOVE SoS, they have 600 SoS models, they want books about them, they want posters of them, they need the world to know how near and dear to them Sisters of Silence are. But two weeks ago, SoS were a niche thing that almost no one played. Some lists took them for mechanical reasons, but lore channels didn't feature them, and no one held them up as some perfect beacon of female representation in Warhammer. But then GW opened the door to female Custodians...... Votann is another good example: Everyone wanted Squats, we'd kill for Squats, add Squats GW, add them!! Now they're here, and almost no one plays them. You can say it's because the range is small and not great in game right now, but I think the real reason is that people love bandwagoning, but they don't really love the thing they're bandwagoning about.

[@internetzenmaster8952]

Sisters of Silence suffer from the same issue that Sisters of Battle did for YEARS before GW _finally_ gave them a plastic release (which, much to the annoyance of many lore nerds, did not shut up the 'we want female space marines!' crowd). You can only get SoS models online these days, and even then it's just 'Prosecutor Squad, Witchseeker Squad, the Kharon Pattern Acquisitor, and a Talons of the Emperor model pack with Valerian Alaya'. That and with very little lore about SoS aside from being basically attached to Custodes at the hip pretty much every story they're involved in (Beast Arises series is the _only_ time I can think of in the lore that SoS get to shine without having to compete with Custodes. They kicked ass, took names, and were critical to stopping the Orks from breaking the Imperium all the way back in M32), I can understand why 'bandwagoners' feel the 'GW promise' was broken with the change to Custodes lore. It ruins the whole 'symmetry' SoS and Custodes have with SoBs and Space Marines, which make the the 40k fanbase skittish about what GW might do next, so the 'bandwagoners' reflexively point at what was already there and demand that GW prop up the thing they feel is being threatened by the change. There is still a deep-seated fear among sections of the community that GW might decide to pull an "End Times" on the 40k setting and up end all of the lore (and models associated with it) in favor of wiping the slate clean. Is it paranoia? Maybe, but given how most people didn't expect Warhammer Fantasy to get cancelled for AoS (hindsight be damned), it's not an unreasonable one. As for the Votann: while I'm not gonna buy the army (aside from yoinking bitz for Orky kitbashing fun), the fact they've been out for years now and no one at GW has bothered to even write a short story for them (that I'm aware of at least. Haven't checked the Black Library site recently) outside of Necromunda 'Squat related' content is more than a little concerning for me.

[@LA-hx8gj]

This is a great and accurate comment. GW is a business. If they can't get enough people to buy a faction to justify its investment, they need to drop it.

[@Telidian]

This is the point I'm so glad I left GW behind. What is sad many people get angy when they do things like this, and with reason, but then they still keep buying exclusively their products. If you are fed up with GW, start looking for alternative games like one page rules, which is a miniture agnostic game, so you can use models you already have. Also supporting some smaller companies I think it would do good for the wargaming landscape, because in the long run GW might have a competitior to deal with and it's monopol state would break. I was suprised when I bought the BattleTech starter box. It had two vouchers which I could use in their webshop, also had 8 mechs and 9 paper cutout mechs, and all the rules and a couple of scenarios. It wasa very different experience from GW.

[@ZestayTaco]

TIL about the Age of signmar retirement. and wow. they are retiring my entire army ( stormcast ) . i just bought those like 4 years ago.

[@myzorbos]

none of the base sizes should change so you'll be able to continue using your older Stormcast as proxies. GW also promised to support all the cut models officially until 2025, and then as legends rules until 5e. it's... a shitty thing to do, but Stormcast get off pretty easy.

[@ZestayTaco]

@@myzorbos still. it would take like 3 pages in the next book to print updated data cards. if they dont wanna make the minis any more. fine. but pulling them from tournaments is just rude.

[@gregorycafiero9688]

This is why people need to be clearer about how retirement is happening. They are getting rules in the new edition. They aren't being retired until 2025, so it's likely a year or more out. It also means you'll be able to play them casually until at least 5th edition, just won't have the rule or point adjustments for /sanctioned/ tourney play. They even say in the article you can and should continue to play them casually, and nothing stops them from working as proxies for other sculpts.

[@myzorbos]

@@ZestayTaco why do they need to print anything? Just put all the rules out online for free. even makes it easy to tweak said Legends rules.

[@JonathanUsmar]

It's weird that discontinuing a model kills the model in people's minds. So many collectors basically never play... But for some reason it's important to know your army is game-legal in the current edition. Like. If you have a copy of whatever edition that model was legal in then discontinuing it doesn't destroy your copy of the old edition. You can still invite a friend over and play with whatever edition your want. You can also just house-rule or proxy your minis into the current edition, assuming your friends agree. But. Somehow the fun of theorycrafting an army only works for the current miniatures and rules. The make believe and the narratives we spin for ourselves dries up.

[@gregorycafiero9688]

Not to mention people play with 3d proxies all the time and I've yet to meet anyone actually care outside a Warhammer store and you should support your FLGS over those places anyway.

[@CreationDominion]

Thank you! This needs to be talked about more people do this to themselves its nuts

[@MikeGeney]

I think the thing driving this is that most people who actually play regularly aren't inviting a friend over and playing around the kitchen table. At least not at first. Mostly it's going to the local game store and meeting a random person. And you've gotta decide before you leave the house what rule set your bringing your models for. The latest competitive rules is just an easy shorthand so people know what to expect in those kinds of pickup games.

[@Bluecho4]

A lot of people want to feel included in the "official" zeitgeist, even if they never actually play the current version of Warhammer. Being able to be in the community is important. To follow all the updates, because it's part of that culture.

[@markdickie1840]

It's entirely understandable, it's supposed to be a playable game system, not a display collection. For a lot of people a big part of the enjoyment of collecting and painting an army is that it's all designed around a playable list. The idea that one day we'll take it to a FLGS and play some random pickup games, maybe enter a local casual tournament. The idea of proudly fielding an army that we've painted up and is legal in the current system is a strong incentive. I feel like you're basically saying 'why don't people just get more friends and only play outdated rules at home' - not very inspiring, yeah?

[@exceldamage1861]

warcry and underworlds not selling well just feels so unlikely to me to be true, cos as with most releases these days it all sells out super fast and is barely available. so the only way those games arent making money is if gw are actively not printing enough kits to make their money back.

[@jamesbarantor7094]

This is the sort of thing that drove me back/further into Battletech. I can get similar gameplay with their Alpha Strike rules and they have never eradicated whole armies with a book, they just move the timeline. You can still play the same game with the oldest minis as the newest ones and now that there is a version similar to 40k it got a lot better. I got tired of keeping up with the rules changes with 40k.

[@clams419]

Battletech is so much fun.

[@lorcannagle]

I switched form 40K as my primary game to BattleTech in 1992 and never looked back. Every issue with GW now was evident to 15-year old me back then, it just hits players in cycles and GW captures a new generation of kids who learn the problems anew.

[@turtletaub-f9t]

my pet theory: They have been using aluminium tooling instead of steel, with a much shorter lifespan, but much cheaper to produce. So they can pump out new designs cheaply but only getting 5-10 years life from it. Basing this off a lot of previous industry comments but no evidence. So they can have loads of new models for cheaper but have to retire them sooner than even some of the much older miniatures.

[@Ben-fk9ey]

Don't they have quite limited production facilities? As they produce everything in-house I assume there's a limit to what they can make, my guess is that the things they cut from the range were forecasted to not make as much as the new stuff the machines will be making.

[@platypuspaints]

@@Ben-fk9eyYeah, this probably plays a part in the culling.

[@gregorycafiero9688]

​@@Ben-fk9eynot just that, but there's no way AoS doesn't get way less resources than 40k does, given that there's still a significant gap in the two. Production cuts are made in AoS so that 40k doesn't have to make them. It's sadly business as usual if you've ever been in an environment where one team handles a larger market share.

[@Chnmmr]

@@Ben-fk9eyas far as I’m aware, GW is working on setting up another factory

[@fenreer01]

I've been told that they're still using H13 steel for their production molds. I'd agree that they probably don't want to, but the material cost of the molds is trumped by the cost of making the production mold itself no matter the material. I'm not sure if they do prototype molds. I've heard different things.

[@Dahajda]

When I got into the hobby in 2011 the staff at the GW store told me to pick Space Marines because they were a good investment because "they are always going to be around and supported" Around 5 years later Primaris were announced. :) GW has their poster boys for each game, but they dont stay the same for long.

[@mattdahlberg5059]

Every time they remove a faction they also remove players who won't come back for fear of being burned again

[@TheNurglitch]

Very glad I got off the GW treadmill in 2018. Mind you, it was because 40k was getting boring to play (Knights are boring) but I'm glad I stopped buying stuff now.

[@hll705]

12:52 The number of units aren’t being pruned. They explicitly state that they’re making room for new ones. They have learned zero lessons from previous bad behavior. And all of sacrosanct has, as stated in the article, gone back to their home planet and won’t just get updated sculpts. The first edition stuff in the list will probably all or mostly get updates though. Still. Every Stormcast unit in every starter set three years ago are gone. To make room for new unique units. That will be pruned six years from now I guess.

[@cp1cupcake]

They are trying to force everyone who has old models in their flagship faction to have to replace all of them. It is the same reason primaris were added instead of just being an updated kit for space marines.

[@Vangelus]

I remember the first time The Promise was broken before my eyes, when Gorkamorka got shuttered in my baby era right after a year of wonderful games at my local GW store ;_;

[@jakobo88]

AoS was always a terrible business decision... they removed the regiment, more realistic looking game to make an uninspired, generic 40k copy with golden space marines along other stupid and overly busy looking models, with rushed and purely marketing based lore and factions with no real backbone and no soul. All they really seem to be profiting off long-term (considering the investment so far...) are the big dumb monsters since most of the out of stock catalogue they have has always been the old reconverted fantasy ranges which fantasy players had kept on buying all this time despite the discontinuation. I for one am glad they brought Beastmen back to where they belong and also glad they removed some of the golden 40k clones that no one really likes and are only forced sales through starter boxes pushed by the store employees. I hope they finally start acknowledging AoS is never going to pay off, deescalate the thing and move resources back to the old world which fills a real demand and a different niche than 40k, has a much more pleasing and coherent background, factions and lore, and way more potential to grow if only they invest half of what they invested all these years in the other crap.

[@TylerProvick]

I think you are spot on about the Games Workshop promise. It's just weird that this is not the first time they've broken it. They break it so often it's mind boggling to think people still believe it, but they clearly do.

[@TheMichiganMachinist]

This time has been the final nail in the coffin for me.

[@TylerProvick]

@@TheMichiganMachinist Have you found a new home yet? I keep my ear to the ground to a lot of games and could make recommendations. I've been "officially" out of GW since 2014

[@TylerProvick]

@@JadeHarleyCoffeeMug James himself did. It was over tea in 1987. A joke answer for a joke of a comment.

[@TheMichiganMachinist]

@@TylerProvick I'm still going to play old 40k and learn old lore, I'm just not going to buy anything from GW. I am definitely open to suggestions if you know any old 80's style grimdark stuff.

[@TylerProvick]

@@TheMichiganMachinist The only thing I can think of would be OPR. At least for currently available games.

[@sbmoonbeam]

I think when I got Advanced Heroquest as a kid in the 90s and realised the big monsters where just these flat cards that you put in bases I realised GW was like this, never gave them any money again after that. F them. I want to see someone 3D print all the models and go and play with them in a GW shop.

[@danwilde4712]

They won't let you play non-GW models in a Warhammer store, surprised they even let you use non-GW dice

[@theovermatt]

I've only been peripherally interested in Age of Sigmar and the Beasts of Chaos thing STILL makes me furious for the players affected and leaves a bad taste in my mouth for ever trying to buy into the setting. I've eyeballed a Seraphon starter kit many times, but now every time there's a voice in the back of my head going "What if they axe the entire line to repurpose the models for Lizardmen in The Old World?" Might be too far into tin foil hat territory given the faction differences, but that's the thing: the lack of clarity and explanation means all anyone can do is speculate.

[@Bluecho4]

It's the erosion of trust that's the issue. How can one trust that an expensive purchase of models will remain valid or usable going forward? Sure, Seraphon just got a huge range refresh not too long ago. But then again, large portions of the Stormcast range just got squatted, and that army is entirely less than a decade old. If your collection is made up of mostly 2nd ed sculpts, your army is largely 6 years old, and there's no guarantee the Sacrosanct Chamber will get replaced any time soon. Heck, if you bought Horns of Hashut, your models literally got invalidated after ONE YEAR. If even model kits that recent aren't safe, what can you trust?

[@nicholashurst780]

An old mold of a model isn't a proxy... It's just the model. A proxy is putting down a Rhino and calling it a Predator

[@wokedragon3211]

Anything to drive up prices on Ebay

[@elfbait3774]

Is the state of the hobby at a point where an old model representing the same troop type or character as a more model model is considered a "proxy"?

[@bodhisitter]

I had made a small "fine shut up I'll try AoS" learning list. Now I don't have an AoS learning list because it was Bonesplittaz.

[@Madj3llyfish]

You can use any warbands to play "A song of blades and heroes". You can use anything on that system.

[@cp1cupcake]

I remember reading that the only limit to which models you can use at a Mantic Games tournoment is the ability to win the 'best painted armies' award. While I don't really look into the tournoment scene, GW is notorious for having extremely strict rules about what you can bring into their stores.

[@kuro5hin08]

The day I bought into warhammer, the *sole* reason I bought into warhammer: long story short, I was already looking to get back into model cars and airplanes whenever I had accidentally wandered into a warhammer store. Very charismatic store manager got me into a conversation. I mentioned I used to do models and wanted to get back into it. "Try warhammer models instead. You get all the same fun as cars and airplanes except you can use them for games afterwards. And unlike MtG with its constantly rotating bans, nothing ever fully expires out warhammer. There's rule changes, yes, but I've been playing with models from the early 90s as close as last week" This was only six years ago

[@alternate3787]

The biggest dickmove would be if they launched Beastmen for the Old World with the exact same models on square bases

[@AGloriusCrushingz]

You know that's how it's going to happen lol.

[@theundeadgentleman4998]

That is literally what will happen, the whole move is just internal politics rearing its head to impact customers.

[@Bluecho4]

From what I understand, that's literally what they're doing. The article implies as much. Beastmen models aren't being retired, they're just being moved from the AoS part of the webstore to the Old World part. With a corresponding removal from the AoS rules (all going into Legends).

[@Shmimbleton]

That's literally why they cut them from sigmar

[@kristofferlinden9852]

Beastmen was an old Warhammer fantasy army from the beginning. So yes i believe they will be released to the old world

[@tomroberts9132]

As you mention often GW figures are an "investment". They are actually referred to in many groups as collector's items. That said your investment will gain more value the older they are and the scarcer (is that a word?) they become. Just because GW retires the armies, doesn't mean they will no longer be played, only that your armies become more valuable to the player base.

[@zombyroid]

You put something into words, I've been struggling with. I didn't mind primaris space marines so much because the old ones were either direct proxies with primaris stuff or the kits were pushing 20+ years old. The stormcast stuff getting sacked from last edition was a low blow though. I lost all my momentum to do anything with SCE since then. I don't see myself playing anything that looks like it could get sacked in an edition or less.

[@Malisteen]

I'm not sure I can agree with the premise that there ever was such a promise, and if there was then the end times weren't the first time it was broken. Dropping squats, dropping chaos dwarfs, dropping zoats, dropping exodites, splitting undead into vamp counts & tomb kings, campain list variants that were never supported after those campaigns ended, retconning the eye if terror timeline, retconning the storm of chaos timeline, retconning the war in heaven multiple times, countless side games that appeared & were later dropped... GW games have never been that perpetual, and the further back you go the the more mercurial & subject to unexpected change they were.

[@arandomlostsoul753]

This is 100% correct. If the "GW promise" existed, everybody would still be playing 40K with a game master.

[@Ultr4l0f]

I dont she means a literal promise. But its kinda implied. As a recently returned player I could just dust off my Sisters of Battle and Wood Elves and start playing. I wouldnt have returned for a new army if the old ones had been scrapped

[@garretth.251]

I was waiting for the end of the video before posting my thoughts on comparing this recent issue to MtG, but then you brought it up right at the end! The thing is, MtG states up front what the rotation timeline is. Games Workshop doesn't do that. We never know for sure when rules, editions, models, etc. are being retired or released, so we're left in the dark. This makes the broken promise all the more aggravating. Great video! Love hearing your thoughts!

[@funwithmadness]

Every time something like this comes out about GW, it makes me just a little bit happier that I never got into their games. You all know they'll never stop. Right? Ya' gotta vote with your wallet. If you keep giving them money, they'll keep screwing you over.

[@rustedbeetle]

I wonder if @danahowl has a series of square space recordings, each successively longer than the previous, and rolls them out in order. Makes one wonder what the longest recording is, before she runs out of breath support.

[@GoblinsLoft]

I'd ... uhh ... probably watch a super-cut of her square space (et al) adverts in order ... if she has any future squirrel problems maybe do that?

[@xionlord00]

Dana, I am curious. How would you paint 'dream' units. Like illusionary units someone is dreaming. I kinda wanna do an army under the concept of the units being a grand illusion of threat, and want to do them kinda dreamlike in colors or even patterns. Your my go to for a safe guide. Love from alberta, canada!

[@52Miniatures]

Hah! Great stuff. I’m releasing the same video in a few days 😂

[@DanaHowl]

hahah! I know the feeling!! I look forward to seeing your video and your takes on the subject ✨

[@52Miniatures]

@@DanaHowl My take would probably be a more exiting video if I erupted in anger.. but it's a little more resigned than that. But I had to showcase the army I've been working on and that's always fun.

[@jaymaxwell8645]

15:29 always nice to hear glass mentioned!

[@onezerotwo]

"invest in us and your hobby will live forever" hold on do people actually believe that? like, GW is a company, that has an earnings report, that makes an entertainment product for consumption, like... really? that's so... I mean it would be cruel to say naive, but like, hopeful? Believing that some monolithic enterprise that doesn't even know your name cares that your money is well spent, and not just spent? Gamers are quite the conundrum.

[@Wulfseal]

The current day GW is not all bad but it is important to remember that it is now more akin to another person wearing a dear friends skin. Stuff that may once take a decade or more to be retired could be gone in as little as three because they are a large business that has major financial sector investors now.

[@Goodenough-]

My 2 cents: I'm new to Warcry (and GW as a whole) last year, and bought Heart of Ghur and scales for terrain. I bought a bunch of the warbands released last year and this year (about 8). I also bought a couple from V1 (4 total). I had no idea this is standard plans for GW and I feel like I just wasted my money on a very fun game that will only be "current" for 1 more year. If I had known any of this information I would have bought more selectively or not at all. You are right, with a little communication, most of these issues would be avoided for the customer. I now realize that GW relies on their lack of communication so they can sell more, manipulation is key for making them money right now. I unfortunately do not and will not buy any more GW products as I feel betrayed and do not believe the company will change for the better anytime soon. There are soooo many other good systems out there, and I have already moved on regrettably (loved Warcy 2, was my favorite skirmish system). I have no idea what Mordheim is and I don't really care, to me they might change the simplistic Warcry system I loved and adored into something that is more similar to how this Mordheim played out in the past and that was not the system I bought into. Warcy is the easiest GW system to get non-GW friends into, and once they learn it most of them would buy into Kill Team too. What GW should do is address and fix the issues with Warcy and it would become even more fun, which should in turn attract more people to the system. Like making reactions more interesting and fun (I thought they were going that direction given Pyregheists), but now I think their attitude is, "We can go out with a bang, so who cares what we do, "let them eat cake" is all I hear now. Sigh....

[@danwilde4712]

You are talking about the same company that printed Index cards for 10th Ed. 40K that were DOA. GW doesn't care about any of what you just typed. That being said Mordheim was another game they let die on the Heap.

[@rachelk6375]

I've really been burned by Age of Sigmar. I bought a starter box of Seraphon and was able to build and paint almost t 3/4ths of it before most of the models where replaced. I bought a box of Evocators about a year ago alongside the Untamed Beasts. I have yet to paint them. Literally, the only thing I have that I bought that was not replaced are 2 nighthaunt models and the new Warcry Hunters and Hunted.

[@scannerbarkly]

It'll be weird watching them bring back Mordheim without the brutal ruleset that everyone forgets they hated when they talk about Mordheim.

[@RealJahzir]

Disappointed sums it up for me too. I felt it and didn't lose much of anything at all from my armies.

[@thomasalbion1834]

Great video! I feel like GW could cut a lot of this controversy off at the pass if it made these announcements much much earlier, while said models are still in stock for the most part, so that people don't invest in them right before they are discontinued and so that those who don't care GW is terminating the lines can buy them while they are still available with their eyes open. Also, there are so many other games people could play that are not produced by GW, many of them with better rulesets. Just a thought.

[@gregorycafiero9688]

To be fair, the retirement is over a year away, with legality probably extending until 5th edition around 2028. Not sure how much more heads up you can get.

[@KevinoftheCosmos]

Great video as usual, Dana. My Stormcast Ephemerals say "thank you."

[@IlikethingsIdo]

just want to point out, Mistweaver Saih is not a resin model. it's plastic and initially came in the warhammer quest box. so it's relatively new.

[@Ghastly1]

It just seems weird that they'd invest the time and money re-sculpting and replacing a bunch of relatively new models when there are 40k ranges that have sculpts old enough to legally drink and/or are simply unavailable (court of the archon).

[@grahamlewis5888]

They've been squatting model lines ever since the Squats were discontinued, but they have definitely got more frequent in their attempts to kill off model lines as time has gone on. Not to mention the demise of whole studio teams, and their associated games (Warhammer Historical and Specialist Games/Fanatic).

[@TheDreadGazeebo]

"12 different types of infantry" sounds like current Space Marines 😅

[@HerbaceousM8]

12 different types. in 10 colours! some of them are playable even!

[@cowmansmincraft]

I assumed from the context of the article being about aos that thge warcry warbands are being retired from aos but are still around just in their warcry format

[@Mikey__R]

When they rescaled the HH mini marines, I took that as my opportunity to exit the GW bus. I thought I'd miss it more.

[@The.Tabletop.Traveller]

In some cases discontinued is down to sales vs production... if the parts hit market saturation, dont play well, cause inbalences or just not liked then the cost of production causes a loss... its business sense to not make them any more

[@Gibbtall]

I think something you didn't touch on, but sort of played in to your end thoughts, was that warbands don't expand. The stuff that came out 6 years ago, hasn't changed since then. A whole army has a lot more of the "games workshop promise", were you expect it to evolve and persist. Over in Bloodbowl, we're pretty used to using counts-as minis, and teams don't really change once they're officially put to paper. If GW decided to axe a whole team, there would be a lot more complaints about it from a rules/tournament side than it would be about the minis.

[@f.g.5967]

I was about to get into Warhammer fantasy in the 90s with an undead army with zombies. They turned the undead into a gothic vampirefest before I bought my first miniature. Now i mostly paint boardgame minis with the kids.

[@howardnenno1806]

I always though Games Workshops promise is "We will do absolutely anything for money."

[@ferdimaz999]

Really interesting ! Always like your videos

[@Kidfry]

Well said! Thank you.

[@VoiceInTheGrimDark]

The first breaking of the promise for me was the closure Specialist Games which saw what many see as the best GW games like Mordheim, Blood Bowl, Necromunda and others all lose their support. It really felt like GW went into a dark age after that as they pulled back from social media and started to feel more like a corporate entity rather than a collection of nerdy dudes making cool games.

[@alvarolaramartinez3417]

I find your idea of the promise very interesting, always felt that there was something but never thougth about it in this way. i personally could define the promise as: "this is more than a product, more than somenthing you simply buy and use, is something deep and meaningfull" and GW actions from time to time remider us how many decisions in our beloved hobby are fuelled by corporate greed and not consistency to the lore, trying to make the game more fun or balanced, etc.

[@Super-Sheepy]

the reason I was happy to see the classic Warhammer rule book come out shows that you can go back to old models and improvise where needed to use them. I get if they are no longer producing or produce on demand makes sense but if you worry that you buy something no longer useable then GW will see a massive loss in confidence in off brand purchases people make

[@Fezzik312]

Watching this as I'm painting a 3D printed Reikland Mordheim Warband... 3rd party minis for a game kept alive by the community. I don't think those will retire any time soon.

[@interloper8029]

They've deleted entire game systems many times, including the one that was at one point their primary game. Their only real promise is to target 70% gross margin...

[@intzbk1]

Because of this, I just picked up a bunch of beastmen at my local LGS for 40% off. Going to start getting them ready for TOW. I got Centigors, Cockatrice, Vanguard, and SC. They had a bunch of skaven on sale but I haven't went through mine to see what I have and with the new release coming, I don't want to buy more.

[@SethScapesGaming]

I agree mostly, however I would point out your first example of the promise break, whfb being removed, was because people stopped investing in it ie it was filled with people who refused to buy new models and only bought the books to play up to date rules but refused to get anything else, which caused it to stop being cost effective for GW to support. On those grounds I’d say they didn’t break the promise as their promise to keep it going if invested in ceased to apply.

[@hallsofvalhalla1749]

The number times that GW rebranded or discontinued Epic (or whatever it's called now), bloodbowl, spacehulk. Anyone remember man o war? It's nice to redo old miniatures. So I'm sympathetic to that. But GWs business model has always been aimed using the current line of minis an games. As pointed out, the amount of rule changes that GW do for 40K is quite astounding. Clearly they don't worry about play testing. They want you to buy the cool, powerful, new thing. Remember when tyranids were good etc? I'm actually a little surprise they brought back WH fantasy. I used to play, and is was way too expensive to get an army, especially as a kid (too many models to make units etc). I kinda think AOS makes a bit more sense. As an adult now, I much prefer the idea of painting for fun and then using the miniatures to play games like frostgrave (although I haven't played it yet, I've just been painting........). I agree with many of the comments below. Just play and have fun. Used crocheted animals if you want too. Just have fun. I personally think that miniature agnostic games are the way to go. I understand why people like AOS and 40K so much. Selfishly, I'm glad that more youTubers are looking at other companies/games.

[@catcadev]

I totally agree. If GW would say "hey guys. We needed to retire them because they didn't sell well, or they didn't fit the army aestetic, but you can still run them as...." It would have gone oevr better. Same for female Custodes, saying they would have always been there but the models did not line up would havs been better 😂

[@mzaite]

There’s also deeper weirder reasons like the dies are wearing out, or GW only owned the “Design” and the actual Dies in China were broken or the contractor folded. Or the production line only has so much capacity. All solved by 3D printing but that’s a whole other can of worms. Yo ho. Sail the 7 seas and all that me hearties.

[@mtgmac1]

15:10 - exactly what happened recently with the new edition.

[@Mad4saxBrewery]

The largest armies I have are the Stormcast and Skaven armies. I am not buying all new models. I still have lots of them in my pile of shame to paint. Warcry is the only GW game my son and I play. Yes with several of the discontinued armies.

[@AlexanderGiraldez]

This happened with my Harlaquin army in 40K and with this news it seems to be a trend that will continue. You can still use them but it’s no longer a stand alone faction. It’s a bummer. I think this may happen to Dark Eldar next. Iv been less focused on GW games and have been enjoying trying new game systems.

[@VixenIcaza]

If the cycling of models is a problem let me introduce the Battletech universe. Every model ever produced (and it's older than 40k) is still usable. And outside of offical events the player base has a "if we can tell what it is and which way it's facing...." I have seen bases with the mech code written on, pennies, and cardboard standees. Oh and bar a couple of minor tweeks the rulebook from back then is also still perfectly usable.

[@killinusoftly7744]

this video was done perfectly to address all the issues. it was classy

[@spacecentergames]

Over time, I've let go of more and more of GW. You've highlighted a bunch of controversies that have eroded my interest. And had me spending my money elsewhere. The recent gaslighting related to the Amazon show - that isn't even out yet - really is just the final nail on the coffin. I have my old books, models, and such, but I will no longer buy anything that GW releases of any kind.

[@abrohm2983]

Probably worth elobrating on but at roughly 20:27 you hit the nail on the head for exactly what they should do if they want to rebuild and maintain consumer confidence. Follow magic's lead and encourage different formats. Right now you can expect to be able to find GW games anywhere, but only if that game is matched play in the current edition. If they pushed a legends inclusive format and players adopted it to the same level of ubiquity alongside competitive matched play with a timed down roster that would do a lot to make legends rules actually matter and count for something as a consolation prize for retired units. Alternatively they should just be better about doing what they did when they announced the retirement of hh units from 40k. Just including a single line encouraging/ endorsing their use as proxies. Something to reassure people they still have a game for their game pieces

[@Dstinct]

That already exists. You can use older rulebooks and army books. I still play 2E 40k all the time. But like magic, most people want to play modern rules, so it is harder to find people willing to play with older rules.

[@abrohm2983]

@@Dstinct yes. That's why I'm suggesting gw put some work into encouraging this. Make it easier to do

[@Leofilmperson]

Someone forgot that "squatting" has taken on a different meaning in the miniwargaming space.

[@bluestarorion]

I'm not a WH player. I just love mini painting... What is stopping folks from playing whatever army they want at the table with their friends?