The Gnostic Strain in Protestantism

[@shamelesspopery]

Just to clarify, since there was some confusion: I'm not pointing to Oprah Winfrey and Jordan Peterson as Gnostic-tinged Protestants. I'm pointing to them as popular figures saying Gnostic sounding things. I then pivot to talk about Protestantism specifically: I make that segue explicitly in at around 13:20. Sorry for any confusion!

[@richiejourney1840]

I am genuinely curious: did the Israelites in Egyptian Slavery eat the Passover in symbolic way? By extension, did the Jews of Jesus day eat the Passover the same way? When Jesus was celebrating His last Passover, was He eating and drinking Himself? If the Passover was symbolic, then Jesus declares He wants it continued but in a new light, then wouldn’t that also make the Eucharist symbolic as well (if it all was symbolic to begin with)?

[@TrentonErker]

@@richiejourney1840Jesus wasn’t the Passover lamb yet when he was eating the last supper…come on.

[@OnCydig]

In my case, my family is openly Gnostic. Many of my family members are Freemasons, and I myself almost became one. Gnosticism is something that has been a constant in my everyday life, and it's easy for me now to see how it's affected my brain that it influences what I'm naturally drawn too. Thankfully, I also started looking into Catholicism before joining the Masons and the Parish Priest did a wonderful job introducing me to the faith.

[@JC_Forum_of_Christ]

1 Timothy 4 says you have a doctrine of demons and Psalms 22:13 says mimic the fallen angels!!! And I can prove you are t saved!!!

[@JC_Forum_of_Christ]

You are not telling the truth…

[@peterhenryzepeda3484]

A Gnostic, Hellvidian, and Nestorian walk into a bar. The bartender looks up and ask “will you be having the usual, pastor Bob?”

[@gk3292]

@peter…yup!!😆

[@annalynn9325]

🤣🥁🎤

[@kinghoodofmousekind2906]

I was expecting the "We cannot serve minors." response from the bartender, ngl.

[@CadyAnBlack]

😂❤️You tickled my pickle right off, Peter eater. I'm dead. HECKin dead. Hecking dang dead to death DONTchaknow dead!!! 🩵🩷🤍🩷🩵 gosh yer a treat. 🤗😚🤗

[@Howhardisittofindausernamebruh]

This was nasty work 😭

[@MikePasqqsaPekiM]

This actually makes me shed happy tears. I was raised in a loving evangelical community, but somehow the hatred of our flesh sunk deeply into my soul. When I heard the Gospel doesn’t despise our physical bodies, but transforms them, when I heard salvation is not just a declaration, but a total healing in every way…another level of healing began.

[@Electric_]

Same, albeit as a former Southern Baptist. One great point to make to Protestants is the Resurrection of the Body. Like Christ, we will eventually be united body and soul once again. God will create a new earth at the end of the age, a new Eden. So heaven will be physical. It’s only purely spiritual prior to the resurrection. Most Protestants will accept this as it’s very pronounced in the Bible, and once they acknowledge it they can begin more easily to untangle gnostic ideas about the body and physical matter.

[@Silverhailo21]

@@MikePasqqsaPekiM Amen.

[@joshportie]

Unfortunately those churches are now controlled by the harlot drunk on the blood of the saints. The Catholic Church. And this title is ironic as the Catholic Church is literally gnostic and not Christian. This makes me sad that it's so easy to spread this deception now.

[@joshportie]

While you sport px the symbol the butchers of Christians wore. My brothers and sisters who were far better than me.

[@JenniferMcMann]

❤

[@kennethwoody5897]

I'm not sure how well my post will be received. But as a religious Jew, I greatly appreciate seeing and hearing a voice within the Christian sphere calling out something that I myself have noticed within Protestant Christianity. There is indeed a pervasive strain of Gnosticism within many sects of Protestantism, particularly among non-denominational Christianity. While we may disagree on certain aspects of theology, I'm glad that Christian and Jew alike can come together to recognize the heresy of Gnostic thought. Shalom!

[@rhwinner]

Appreciate your thoughtful comment. I myself am I Jew, and also a practicing Catholic. God bless you!

[@kennethwoody5897]

@@rhwinner I appreciate your reply brother. Shalom Aleichem, and g-d bless you in kind.

[@andrewpatton5114]

Very well, but whether or not Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah is a question of paramount importance. If He is not, then Christianity is completely worthless, but if He is, then whoever refuses to believe in Him is disobeying God and cutting off his only hope of salvation. I speak to you as a friend: Read the Scriptures and see how the Messiah has to come twice- once before the destruction of the Second Temple and again at the end of the age. Consider how, just as Rabban Gamaliel said would happen, every messianic movement dissolved soon after the death of the purported Messiah except that of Jesus of Nazareth. Consider that, because of the Gospel of Jesus of Nazareth, Gentiles from every nation have forsaken idols to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, just as the prophets said would happen in the Messianic Age. Your own sages said that there would be 2000 years from Adam to Abraham, 2000 years from Abraham to the Messiah, and 2000 years for the Age of the Messiah. The time is short; soon, the Messiah will come in glory to judge the living and the dead, and those who have not believed in Him will be destroyed by His Coming, rather than saved by it.

[@abidethefire]

This show has become my favorite apologetics resource. I am a shameless subscriber who looks forward to every show. This episode is another classic. Thank you for your faithful service to the kingdom.

[@calledtorome]

Mine too!

[@ClaimClam]

Not Jae Dyer?

[@abidethefire]

@@ClaimClam Not Jay. Jay is very talented and much more intelligent than I... Nonetheless, Shameless Popery lights the way. Very grateful to be Catholic.

[@anthonyoer4778]

​@@ClaimClami cannot understand Jay Dyer when it comes to Christian denomination differences.

[@Lucas-jy7cv]

It's definitely a fantastic show

[@beaniehampton]

(at 39 minutes now) This reminds me of Saint Padre Pio when it was noted that he prayed while going to the bathroom and was asked if it was proper to pray during this time. He responded, "Can you sin while going to the bathroom? Then you can pray also." (may not be an exact quote).

[@muriel2267]

I feel better now about doing this 😂🤦🏻‍♀️

[@sese5370]

I've also heard this was St Teresa de Avila and St John Vianney.. I have no idea who actually said it now lol

[@jdotoz]

"What comes out of my mouth is for God, what comes out the other end is for you." -attributed to Teresa of Avila when the devil came to mock her for praying on the toilet

[@Fiddleslip]

@@jdotoz based

[@katynotkat]

I am glad you said that. Sometimes the only quiet place I have to pray is the bathroom and I was wondering if it was sacrilegious to do so.

[@JessicaQ23]

Thank you for your videos. You and a few other KZbinrs present such great evidence for Catholicism. I went to my local parish and spoke with the priest. I begin OCIA Tuesday. Please pray for me, as this will not come without a cost.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

I will have you in my prayers, may the Holy Spirit guide you all the days of your life.

[@bluecomb5376]

Praying for you Jessica. May Christ give you peace.

[@daisyhavenergaming4610]

JessicaQ23, Hi Jessica, I help teach OCIA in Idaho, we just started last Thursday. You will love the process. It takes a long time because conversion takes time. Pray daily, go to Mass and seek out good Catholic resources. Bishop Barren, Catholic answers, U tube Catholic videos can inform and edify you. I'll be praying for you. God bless you on your journey.

[@alhilford2345]

Welcome home.

[@lynnedwards8333]

From me too, "Welcome home."

[@alents9349]

As a Protestant, I really appreciate this video! You did a very good job of firmly standing for an important truth without overstating or taking things beyond what people are actually saying, and I thank you for efforts at representing things fairly! I think this is a really good criticism of Spurgeon! One of the things that I am most frustrated by in the Evangelical world is lack of sacramentology. I couldn’t have given a better critique of many of my brothers and sisters’ views than this. This is something that I think we really need to address, so I appreciate your fair and well put together critique!

[@johnmahaffey9578]

As a former S. Baptist, I certainly recognized these strains of Gnosticism. Whenever I questioned the SB belief that baptism and Holy Communion were merely symbolic (as Scripture nowhere indicates that they are merely symbolic,) I either got no answer or people just acted horrified that those could be sacramental. It was just too Catholic to them. And now I'm Catholic.

[@lindaakguest4ever50]

Welcome home!

[@TheMegaLegoShow]

Welcome home, brother. Pray for me, as I will pray for you.

[@HellenicPapist]

Praise the Lord. God bless you. Hopefully your witness to the Church stirred more in your old SB parish.

[@johnbrowne2170]

What you are saying is that you were never born again.

[@johnmahaffey9578]

@@johnbrowne2170 That is absolutely not what I am saying. My path to salvation began at the age of 9 when I was reborn of water and the Spirit at my baptism (see John 3) in the Baptist church. I have come to a much deeper conversion and the fullness of the faith in Our Lord's One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church receiving the sacraments. May God grant me the grace to persevere to final salvation in Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen.

[@ChuckyLarms]

Hold judgement, folks. When I was learning about “sins of the flesh” in RCIA, I thought I had an epiphany on the drive home. Thinking my spirit is good and fighting evil bodily urges. Only to realize I easily drifted into heresy. THIS is why the magisterium and proper teaching is crucial.

[@MythwrightWorkshop]

Well, to be fair to you and others, St. Paul also makes several "the Flesh" vs "the Spirit" arguments. He does so in the figurative sense where sin is thinking in terms of "carnal pleasure" and "living for the now in intemperance" and virtue is thinking of one's "spiritual good" and in the sense that many forms of limited self-denial enhance our inner fortitude. He just never directly condemns the "body" but rather elevates it to glory with statements like "we are all members of the body of Christ" so live like you are in communal reception at all times and he speaks of the union of Christ and the Church as if it were a "wedding" or "marriage" in a mystical level of being and reality.

[@jsharp9735]

Like teaching muslims worship the same God as Christians ?

[@Gabelloni]

@@jsharp9735 Not Ex Cathedra statement

[@jsharp9735]

@@Gabelloni So what, dogma per-dates him .

[@marvalice3455]

​@@jsharp9735 that depends on what you mean by "the same God". There is only one God. When you aim your devotion to the one God who made heaven and earth, who is your source and your final end, it's not as if there are multiple players trying to catch that worship. It can only go to one being. That doesn't mean everyone who does so has the correct understanding of that God. So in as much as they are worshiping the one true God, we worship the same God. But that doesn't legitimize their error. The only salvation is through the church

[@MW-eg4gu]

The popularity of "spirituality" at the downgrading of "religion," especially the horrid " organized religion" is favored by those who like to be free to do whatver they want. Spirituality or the spiritual can't be pinned down, meaning it can mean whatever the believer prefers, thus freeing the believer into living a life of whatever feels good. To these type people, organized religion is an annoying limitation with rules Free-spirit persons want whatever they want.

[@michaelogrady232]

Because they worship themselves, not God.

[@SquattRakk]

Exactly. Loose “spirituality” requires no submission to God, which essentially turns it into a buffet of our own preferences as opposed to a humbling experience.

[@eddardgreybeard]

As I always like to say: Being spiritual but not religious is wanting God to be your friend and not your Father.

[@dedios03]

James 1:26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless James 1:27, which says "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.".

[@mikekayanderson408]

@@dedios03 there are many religions - whereby people follow rituals and practice certain rules - trying to save themselves by making themselves worthy of whichever god they follow. True Christianity is not being religious in that sense - it is a living faith in a living God - it is a relationship with our Saviour Jesus Christ and because of this relationship and because the Holy Spirit lives within us - we bear good fruit - good works, we are changed and sanctified by Him. And most importantly it is not us being self righteous - trying to win God’s favour - it is all about God being the initiator of our faith - our salvation - He saves us out by His Grace - we do nit deserve to be saved - we deserve to go to hell - but out of love He has chosen a people for Himself and saved them in Jesus Christ. Many people sit in churches and are “religious” but are not saved.

[@rhwinner]

Gnosticism, yes. But also a healthy serving of Nestorianism.

[@MythwrightWorkshop]

...and no list of Protestant incidental errors would be complete without a healthy dose of semi-Pelagianism!

[@megred7364]

Protestantism is a strange, illogical mix of all the historical heretics, with a few new ones thrown in for good measure.

[@AveChristusRex789]

To be fair to some Protestants, Nestorianism is more likely to be found in the low church denominations like with Baptists and Pentecostals

[@Mkvine]

And nominalism!

[@AJ_Jingco]

​@@AveChristusRex789 ALL PROTESTants who view that Mary is just the Mother of the Humanity, of Jesus Christ ✝️ are IPSO FACTO Heretics.

[@RobbyLockett]

I was raised a Southern Baptist. You’ve described my childhood church almost perfectly, except that you left out the part where we vehemently disagreed with the obvious and necessary gnostic consequences of our beliefs. “This world is not my home, I’m just a-passing’ through. If Heaven’s not my home, O Lord, what will I do?” We looked forward to death in order to put off nasty pollution of our bodies. At times, there would be some effort put into describing the new body we’d get in Heaven, but the idea that our present body would be resurrected and glorified was not seriously considered at any point. This refusal to accept creation on God’s terms is what started me down the path that has led me into the RCC.

[@Kitiwake]

As the Catholic church is the body of Christ, is it appropriate to refer to it as RCC? It's the Catholic church.

[@puritanbob]

Excellent again. I am coming out of that Moscow Idaho strain of Christianity into the Catholic Church, they do a great job pointing out the gnostic elements that particularly have effected the Reformed side of Protestantism. It really goes back to the puritans, who Spurgeon read assiduously, as did I in my early days in Reformed Protestantism. There is very much a focus on rejecting the material world that is seen in the church architecture and decor as well as the liturgical life of these churches. They opted for plain white buildings that in New England would function as a town center, a meeting house, nothing explicitly religious about it, except maybe a steeple. Certainly no images of Christ or the saints, that is fleshly. The same with worship, they made a point of NOT having communion regularly, once a month, quarterly, or even yearly. So no one would mistakenly see it as a means of grace. The main thing each lord’s day is the sermon, usually lasting between 45 minutes and an hour and a half. They have this made up “Regulative Principle of Worship” that gets them here, basically the RPW is the notion that whatever isn’t explicitly commanded in scripture to do in worship is forbidden. It’s the club they bring out to dismiss Catholic elements of worship like candles, images, incense, postures, all things “fleshly” as Spurgeon would put it. This is how they get to no instruments, no hymns, psalms only, and other bizarre hollowing out of worship. The RPW was the first major link in the chain to break for me when I saw how arbitrarily it was applied. So they say no instruments and to sing psalms only, well, ironically, a number of the psalms tell us to sing them with instruments. I brought this up to some of my seminary professors, and they pulled out some bogus arguments about the difference between the old and new covenants, to which I pointed out that instrumentation was used in Revelation’s description of heavenly worship. Also I asked them where the RPW is found in the Bible, They visibly short circuited in front of me. The churches in the Moscow Idaho orbit are much better on this stuff, many of us are basically Anglican at this point, have weekly communion, strive to be small c catholic, etc. Authority is the main issue with them. Perhaps a thorough takedown of the RPW could make for a good topic for future episodes. Keep up the good work!

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Not sure where you are in your journey, but as Catholic, I benefitted from your perspective, thank you and God bless you.

[@annalynn9325]

This is fantastic! I was raised a gnostic-new age-occult believer. I converted to Protestant. They accuse those who try to follow the commands of Christ as having “works-based righteousness” and being unsaved due to not believing in “faith alone” (which is not even in scripture, yet they say “scripture alone”). It hit me hard that this was hermeticism and SO GNOSTIC! I left Protestantism. So grateful to our Lord Jesus Christ for giving us the sacraments ❤

[@lukebrasting5108]

Whenever they accuse me of believing in "works based salvation," I just say no, I believe in faith + obedience. That usually shuts them up real quick because they don't want to admit that disobedience to God is okay in their view. I usually follow it up by asking them if I was cheating on my wife and died in a car crash on my way home from my mistress's house one night, would my soul ascend to heaven upon death. In the Protestant view, they would have to say yes because of their belief in faith alone and eternal security/once saved always saved. But that contradicts scripture, which says that unrepentant adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God, which St. Paul warns born-again believers about about in Galatians 5:19-21.

[@AveMaria.GratiaPlena]

God bless the CA apologists: Jimmy, Trent, and Joe! You defend the faith eloquently without any scorning or mocking of the members outside the Church. Based on the comments I see under your videos, your work has borne many spiritual fruits. I pray for Christian Unity that we will all be one Body of Christ.

[@alicia92486]

As a Protestant seriously considering the claims of the Catholic Church, this was excellent and made me tear up. Also a big fan of Joe Rigney and Ben Zornes and wish they could hear this. Mr. Heschmeyer, I so appreciate and respect your charitable comments and presentation of those Protestant brothers’ writings.

[@andrewscotteames4718]

I’ve been pointing this out about evangelicals for years now. There’s a great book by a Presbyterian minister on the subject called “Against the Gnostic Protestants”

[@johnbrowne2170]

Why in the world would I even consider listening to what Presbyterians say. Most haven't been Christian for 100 years.

[@milankurienov6768]

​@@johnbrowne2170But the ones who are still Christian tend to be pretty great.

[@johnbrowne2170]

@@milankurienov6768 Hope your right, but that religion has gone pretty liberal.

[@milankurienov6768]

@@johnbrowne2170 agreed

[@lukethomas1092]

I taught at a Protestant school for four years. An incredible minority of the students had a sense of the bodily resurrection, it is part of the logic of low church Protestantism and a natural implication of the rejection of the sacraments.

[@michaelbeauchamp22]

one of my electives at a Protestant uni was on the incarnation as it intersects with the humanities, and the prof would talk about hoe scandalized other faculty would be when he said things like "God took a body and he kept it" The class was great, really set my heart toward the sacraments despite the rest of the uni being low church like you mentioned

[@lukethomas1092]

@@michaelbeauchamp22 Sounds like an awesome class!

[@johnbrowne2170]

I went to Catholic school and we were not encouraged to read the bible or take it to school or church.

[@lukethomas1092]

@@johnbrowne2170 ok, why is the most popular Christian podcast a priest reading the Bible?

[@johnbrowne2170]

@@lukethomas1092 There are a lot of Catholics in the world. Odd that they enjoy a priest read the Bible but they probably don't.

[@christianmaestas4435]

Had a conversation with a friend who is a gnostic. Of the 6 people there we were the closest in belief by far to each other than anyone else. That fact was super disarming for him. Then the fact that I didn’t get offended when he stated his beliefs disarmed him more. He had been dealing with some pretty irascible Christians it seems. He kept expecting to offend. One thing he focused on was this idea of a divine feminine and how that is missing from mainstream Christianity. One thing that seemed to connect with him was my saying how Mary connects with the Trinity: daughter of the Father, mother of the Son, spouse of the Holy Spirit. She could be a big help there I think. The other big focus was on his view that the Catholic Church was just a top down infiltration of control. He thinks the canon is incorrect because it doesn’t include gnostic texts. So talking to him about the Church, indefectibility, the Papacy and the Authority, helped. Oh BIG thanks for that Eliakim video that helped hahahaha

[@christianmaestas4435]

It was super crazy to have the gnostic be the only other person at this party confess the Jesus Christ is God, the Creator and rightful Sovereign of the world and that He came in the flesh and died for our sins. My friend wasn’t completely against the flesh, just saw it as lesser.

[@john-paulgies4313]

​@@christianmaestas4435 Lesser doesn't mean evil, just humble. ☺️

[@PuzzlesC4M]

I believe Abigail Favale is Catholic now, but she might have been Protestant when she wrote that. Her work on gender is fantastic.

[@shamelesspopery]

Oh shoot, you're absolutely right! In hindsight, I realize now that she said, "I teach in a great books program at an Evangelical university," not that she was herself Evangelical. She may have been at the time, the article is from 2018, but more likely, I just misread. Mea culpa!

[@NJWEBER18]

@@shamelesspopery She was Catholic at the time but a recent convert: "Abigail was received into the Catholic Church in 2014, and her conversion memoir, Into the Deep: An Unlikely Catholic Conversion, traces her journey from birthright evangelicalism to postmodern feminism to Roman Catholicism." -from the femcatholic website.

[@drewblack749]

Yep. Larry Chapp interviewed her this week on his podcast. Definitely worth listening to.

[@JC_Forum_of_Christ]

@@shamelesspopery what about the Bible says you have a doctrine of demons

[@StygianIron]

Thank you Joe, for pointing out the double standard. There can be evil spiritual forces that embody physical objects or people, but nothing physical can be spiritually good. It never made sense to me and I know see why. Speaking as a former Protestant undergoing RCIA right now. God bless.

[@TheMegaLegoShow]

Welcome home, brother. It's always exciting to hear people on their journey. I'll be praying for you and ask for you to pray for me as well.

[@jarrahe]

Glory to Jesus Christ

[@Nomorehero07]

Praise God that you are shedding light to this because I have notice these gnostic beliefs in the evangelical circles. Months ago I was learning about Christianity after having an encounter with God and during my journey listening to a bunch of Christian (non-catholic) KZbinrs at first I thought they are in the right but overtime I begin to have this feeling something isn't right. I'm just glad I reverted back to catholicism around holy week after my reversion is when I began really noticing these beliefs of gnosticism which concerns me.

[@JenniferMcMann]

🙌 yes, symbolic Eucharist is a form of gnosticism.

[@zackskewz9577]

Symbolic Eucharist is mocking Christ

[@Klee99zeno]

not just the Eucharist, but baptism should not be called purely symbolic either. What would be the point of baptizing your body if it is only a symbolic act?

[@johnbrowne2170]

@@Klee99zeno Infant baptism is a fraud as you have to believe to be baptized and babies can't believe. Baptism is something you do AFTER you believe. It is your first act of obedience after you are saved.

[@brittoncain5090]

@@johnbrowne2170Can you show that from scripture?

[@Richard-e5m]

That's funny.

[@wjtruax]

I started my journey home to Rome from a local PCA (Presbyterian Church in America - conservative, Reformed, & Calvinist) congregation. Their current facility was finished just before COVID hit in March 2020. When it was brand new I was taken aback with the absolute lack of ornamentation and the overall lack of liturgical beauty. All of it was completely deliberate. The concept is the same as Calvin’s St. Peter’s Church in Geneva: “The only ornamentation is God’s Word.” As a result, the focal point, like almost all Protestant church sanctuaries, is the pulpit - the person speaking - not the person being spoken of, namely Christ.

[@Maranatha99]

@wjtruax NOT TRUE! The focal point in a protestant church is Jesus, not the pastor. The lack of ornamentation helps not to be distracted by external things. Look at how the catholic priest is dressed, calling attention just with his clothes.

[@wjtruax]

@@Maranatha99 I used to think that, too.

[@Maranatha99]

@wjtruax GM.. I still think this way. My journey is opposite as yours. I go to a Bible believing Presbyterian church, & I like the liturgical aspect of it, but I am happy to be out of the external elements I had in the catholic churches, like candles litt in front of images of Mary or saints (that you have to pay before you could litt them)

[@julieelizabeth4856]

@@Maranatha99 You don't "have" to pay. Donations are suggestions. We live in a material world and God gave us material gifts. Protestant churches focus more on music. Why is it okay to use our ears but not our eyes to discover beauty that leads to truth? No one thought it was a problem before the 1500's. And those instruments and speakers for the music cost money too. Why choose Presbyterian over Lutheran or Methodist or Baptist or any of the other "choices?" As far as "Bible-believing" - the Church survived for over three centuries without a closed canon of the Bible. It wasn't even known until then which books that were circulating were Scripture and which ones were not. It was the councils of the Catholic Church that determined the canon. The Bible is a Catholic book. But it doesn't contain everything. If Christianity had been "book only" from the beginning, centuries before the invention of the printing press and increased literacy (most people couldn't read for most of human history) it wouldn't have lasted long. The common person learned the faith by attending Mass and hearing the teachings from learned leaders. The culture for many centuries was that only religious and political leaders needed education. "Education for all" was a Catholic idea in the first place too.

[@Maranatha99]

@julieelizabeth4856 Sorry, but in some Catholic churches, you can not activate the electric candles until you drip the coin. It's designed that way. I have seen that. When the candles were real & u used a martch, it was different.

[@jcbnyc2009]

Some say that they are saved by "knowing Jesus" . By faith alone. No actions. No works. That is dangerously borderline gnostic.

[@vinciblegaming6817]

When faith is defined as some super-duper belief, I agree.

[@ICXCIsLord]

I was sadly one of these people at one time, it sounds so good to the person that no matter what they do they can be saved and it's so dangerous

[@johnbrowne2170]

How much work do you have to do to be saved?

[@crusaderACR]

​@@johnbrowne2170 Wrong question. It's instead the fact that an internal renewal must cause external works of charity. You're one whole thing, body+soul, and the soul can't be one thing and the body another.

[@johnbrowne2170]

@@crusaderACR John 3:16.

[@popcornchicken6750]

Joe why is ur channel not bigger the quality of this content is insane and I literally comment just to bring u more engagement because I love these videos so much.

[@HrvojeSL]

Completely agree. Up until just a little over a year ago i was a broadly speaking evangelical protestant for just about my whole life. In that form of Christianity, your faith is essentially lived between your ears. The main point of a Sunday service is to intake more information from your pastor. And the main way to maintain a relationship with God is by prayer and Bible reading. There's very little to no sacramental dimension. And it's all about "going to heaven" when you die. The resurrection at the end of the age is rarely mentioned, unless in some convoluted way when studying the book of revelation in Sunday school outside of the main service. And I've heard this same exact line of reasoning about you are a soul that happens to have a body. And we will soon shed this tent, to paraphrase St Paul

[@MaranglikPeterTo-Rot]

Here we go again!!! Thank you Joe for yet another great content done. God bless you and your ministry.

[@oldmovieman7550]

This is one of the things that’s has given me pause as a Protestant and had caused me to reconsider the Catholic Church. The over emphasis on the spirit and the diminishing of the body in much of Protestant theology and worship is very troubling. If the body didn’t matter, then Christ would not have come in the flesh. If the body doesn’t matter then there wouldn’t be a physical resurrection. Yet most of Protestant worship behaves as though the body is just there. The sacraments are just symbols, the spaces we worship are incidental, no need for proper posture, etc.

[@bobtaylor170]

There is an uncomfortable similarity there to what atheists refer to as "meat suits." The contempt is hard to miss. I'm a Protestant, some sort of amalgamation of a classical Lutheran, an orthodox Anglican, and a "Bible churcher." I assure you that every believing Protestant believes fully in the Incarnation and the Resurrection. The tragedy is that so many baptistic churches do such a poor job of teaching these truths, by which I mean really explaining them.

[@nisonatic]

It seems like John 6:35-70 is describing how this has always been difficult to accept.

[@atropinecaffeine]

Not to jump in someone's party but conservative anglicanism seems to embrace physical worship as well. Or look more into Catholicism. I keep looking every few years into RC, but can't cross the Tiber. We are going to an anglican church now.

[@HunnysPlaylists]

@@bobtaylor170 No, protestants most certainly do not believe in those fully because they don't even know where they are.

[@HunnysPlaylists]

@@atropinecaffeine Become Catholic!

[@megred7364]

Yes! Christianity is Incarnational (in the flesh)! Any doctrine that in any way denies that is NOT Christian.

[@johnbrowne2170]

Are you talking about eating God?

[@g_br]

@@johnbrowne2170 Christ Himself said that. Catholics are right.

[@lorenzobianchini4415]

​@@johnbrowne2170You clearly dont understand true Christianty and Jesus .Protestantism = Gnosticism obviously😅😅😅

[@johnbrowne2170]

@@lorenzobianchini4415 I'm not a Protestant. And I believe the RCC is Satan's masterpiece.

[@joshuacooley1417]

I was raised protestant evangelical and was a devout protestant evangelical for most of my life. I have contended that Protestantism was infected by gnostic ideas for a long time. Another problem which relates to this is that many Protestants make the mistake of thinking that because an outward observance is useless WITHOUT INTERNAL FAITH AND OBEDIENCE, it is therefore of no importance at all. As with Spurgeon, many Protestants are conditioned to think that because the Old Testament ritual worship did not guarantee inner spiritual life, it was therefore completely worthless and pointless. They miss, of course, that their own worship services, sermons, and all of their Christian practices are no better guarantee of genuine faith than those of the Old Testament were. The question apparently doesn't occur, If it was so worthless and useless, why did God care so much about it that he literally killed people over it? While the sacraments are much greater and more effective than the ritual worship of the Old Covenant, they do have the following point in common. Their fruitfulness depends upon the will of the one who receives them. The fact that it is possible to worship falsely, does not invalidate worship. The point of statements like "obedience is better than sacrifice" (one my dad loved to use) is NOT that sacrifice means nothing. The point is that offering sacrifice, while at the same time being disobedient is an act of hypocrisy, not an act of true worship. It attacks the presumptive attitude that if I sacrifice it will excuse my blatant disobedience (which is both a lack of charity and of faith). It does NOT attack the attitude that for an obedient heart, sacrifice is the primary means of worshipping God. This attitude generally ignores ideas like this... If you are obedient, you will also sacrifice. or, if you are faithful in heart, and have true love of God, you will worship him in the ways that he has prescribed, as opposed to inventing your own preferred means (which is ultimately selfish and shows disregard for God).

[@hannahmb4654]

small correction, Favale is a Catholic who worked for George Fox for a while, but she's now at Notre Dame! She's fantastic! (She did grow up protestant though)... I too have been pondering this for a while now. A lot of the protestants in my rural part of the country tend to fall in to some slight Gnosticism it seems to me. It's kind of alarming, especially since a pretty strong contingent are fallen away Catholics

[@Silverhailo21]

Just finished this, excellent analysis of the situation. I identified this issue in protestantism specifically the more reformed variations of it, years ago and it was part of my conversion to the Catholic faith. It seems it's a strong christological error, and it informs as well the assumption for Protestants that the church is invisible, that you can't see it or touch it, you'll notice that St Thomas refused to accept the resurrection until he could see and touch the Lord.

[@johnbrowne2170]

So you were never really saved.

[@Silverhailo21]

@@johnbrowne2170 sweetheart, please drop the gas lighting. If you really want to get into it, and you hold to a once saved always saved novel perspective, I would just point out that you are in error because you do not know the scriptures nor the power of God. If you hold to a Protestant ethos, you have a form of godliness but you deny its power.

[@johnbrowne2170]

@@Silverhailo21 Perhaps I should pray to Mary because your church believes she was a "Co-redeemer." Give me a break. Agnostics are closer to God than RCs.

[@Silverhailo21]

@@johnbrowne2170 I think what you should do is ask the blessed mother to intercede on your behalf for the hatred that you have in your heart towards Christ and his Church. This kind of bigotry needs to stop.

[@Silverhailo21]

@@johnbrowne2170 If you believe in the scriptures at all in any kind of way, please have the humility to be willing to be corrected by them on your errors.

[@HigherHeightsMK]

It's definitely not lost on me that the doubt in the Garden and the doubt in John 6 are connected, and that the doubt itself is enclosed in John 6:66. Casting doubt in the hearts of mankind towards God is all it takes to start the ball rolling downhill at high speed. Also, this spirit is angry, violent and stubborn, completely opposed to hearing the Truth. At least that's my experience so far in reaching out to my Protestant brothers and sisters since joining the Catholic Church just months ago. Since, I've been belittled, shouted down, talked about like a dog (some true, some not, some assumed, but all of the proverbial barbs were based on who I used to be, who they assume I am/was, have been, and none of it based on Christ or who I am in Him). They were too stubborn to even listen to anything other than what they learned through Calvin's lens. Lots of sarcasm, passive aggressive remarks, finger pointing, etc., and I must admit, it did get under my skin. Please pray for me to grow in patience and love in my communications no matter how much venom or vitriol is thrown at me. I'm fresh out of the Calvinist group and a lot of that same stubbornness is in me. Pray that the LORD Jesus blesses me with the extra supply of grace, mercy and loving kindness needed for the task (the same grace, mercy and loving kindness which has attracted me to the Catholic Church most of my life.

[@jenkoop]

Your prayer request is one I would make my own as well. As I read through the more hostile comments on Joe's threads, I think on the (Biblical) qualities of meekness: Humility: Meekness is founded on humility and wisdom. Gentleness: Meekness is pure, peaceable, and gentle. Open to reason: Meekness is open to reason. Self-control: Meekness involves showing self-control. Healthy self-worth: Meekness involves showing healthy self-worth. Strength: Meekness involves showing strength. Serenity: Meekness involves showing serenity. I once heard a Catholic apologist/philosopher (Peter Kreeft? -- also a convert from Protestantism) describe the quality of meekness as being teachable. So I pray that the Lord Jesus blesses me (us) with grace, mercy, loving kindness, and meekness.

[@HigherHeightsMK]

​@@jenkoopAmen.

[@esgietheqroue]

May the Lord have mercy on those who attacked you and grant them insight, regret, repentance and humility. May the Peace of Christ be upon you!

[@juliannacodde8633]

This is so good, Joe you are on fire lately! So proud to be a supporter!

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

It's not only low church protestants, sola scriptura itself and any denial of the sacraments ultimately leads to gnosticism

[@johnbrowne2170]

Sacraments not needed for salvation or Biblical.

[@jeremias-serus]

It’s inherently gnostic.

[@pete3397]

Total wingnut nonsense. Sola scriptura has nothing to do with it.

[@Richard-e5m]

nope

[@jeremias-serus]

@@johnbrowne2170Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.” (Jn 3:5) Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. (Cor 11:27-29) The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is real drink. (Jn 6:52-55)

[@charlesudoh6034]

Joe has to be one of the best Christian apologists out there. No surprise he is Catholic. This was very insightful.

[@ThornyCrown-l5d]

One cannot be a Christian if you demand that it is "altogether necessary for salvation that EVERY HUMAN CREATURE be subject to the Roman Pontiff" ...(so says Boniface VIII in his ludicrous, "Unan Sanctam"), Jesus did not break through the curtain of this world to make salvation contingent on papal subordination, period, case closed. Thus, all students of the Bible must dismiss your outrageous assessment of Mr. H. being "one of the best".

[@charlesudoh6034]

@@ThornyCrown-l5d I guess it wasn't necessary for early Christians to submit to the authority of the Apostles. I guess they could have gone and done their own thing based on their own understanding of the Old Testament scriptures and the preachings of Christ. 🙄

[@ThornyCrown-l5d]

@@charlesudoh6034 Your comment ignores the centrality of my point. The RCC has a long list of "necessary for salvation" requirements and I only mentioned ONE of them. This abysmal trust in these other doctrines, all biblically untenable, throws the unspeakable merits of Christ under the bus and results in "another jesus and another gospel" per 2 For 11:4.

[@charlesudoh6034]

@@ThornyCrown-l5d _Your comment ignores the centrality of my point. The RCC has a long list of "necessary for salvation" requirements and I only mentioned ONE of them._ No, my friend, my comment addressed your point. You mentioned "submission to the authority of the church" as one of the requirements of salvation that the Catholic Church teaches (which is not 100% accurate, but for the sake of this argument, I will grant you that), and you disagreed with it. I then proceeded to ask if the early Christians needed to submit to the authority of the church, which were the apostles at that time, which you conveniently didn't comment on. You see, if submission to the authority of the church wasn't necessary, like you seem to be arguing, then you will have to conclude that the early Christians didn't need to submit to the authority of the apostles and that they could have gone and done their own thing based on their own understanding of the Old Testament scriptures and the preachings of Christ. I mean, that's the blueprint of Protestantism. Unfortunately for you, the early Christians didn't subscribe to this mindset of Protestantism. They didn't see submission to the (God-given) authority of the church as bad or incompatible with the "unspeakable merits of Christ," as you put it. No, they were Catholic.

[@ThornyCrown-l5d]

@@charlesudoh6034 Frankly, I stopped reading after you said I was not 100% accurate about every person on Earth needing to submit to the authority of the Roman church or hell awaits...and went right to my reply. If basic elementary facts can't be agreed upon by the PRISTINE CLARITY OF THE WORDS THEMSELVES, there is no need to proceed further and I let the reader (and God) be my judge. Now what I said is not partially, but IZZZZZZ 100% accurate, first of all by the statement of Boniface VIII demanding "EVERY CREATURE" be subordinate to him or hell awaits, and confirmed later here.. In regard to the papacy, quoting Vatican 1, the Pope reminds us in paragraph 46, "We teach, . . . [and] declare that the Roman Church by the Providence of God holds the primacy of ordinary power over all others, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate. Toward it, the pastors and the faithful of whatever rite and dignity, both individually and collectively, are bound by the duty of **hierarchical subordination** and true obedience, not only in matters which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church spread throughout the whole world, in such a way that once the unity of communion and the profession of the same Faith has been preserved with the Roman Pontiff, there is one flock of the Church of Christ under one supreme shepherd. *** "This is the teaching of the Catholic truth from which NO ONE can depart without loss of faith and salvation." *** www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061958_ad-apostolorum-principis.html Other similar statements abound in RC paperwork. Thus, you may either KINDLY admit your error and apologize, or I will not continue this conversation.

[@mariasoto-r7d]

Evangelical here. I have learned (and taught my kids) that we are spirits who have a soul and live in a body….never knew that was one of the earliest heresies. WOW. You’ve given me much to think about.

[@jongoodwin5936]

Thank you for this video. As a Protestant, I accept your point that true religion is not the abandonment of our bodies or the physical world as such, and that physical expression of religious truth is commendable and precious. You have given me food for thought, and I appreciate that.

[@zacmurdaugh]

Calling Oprah christian is like calling Joe biden a roman catholic

[@guyguytchombi5425]

President Joe Biden is Catholic.

[@swilliams7850]

Last I heard, he was allowed to take the Eucharist each week in a Roman Catholic church. The Pope even defended this practice. Has something changed?

[@crusaderACR]

​@@swilliams7850 Joe Biden has been rejected the Eucharist before, but the fact that he continues to find ways to take part in it is problematic. Doing that may be what ultimately damns him, and that's real tragic. I haven't heard of the Pope defending this practice, but if he did that would be kind of heartless, and part of me would think that he wants him damned. Hopefully there may be something I'm misunderstanding.

[@ArchangelIcon]

@@swilliams7850 with Pope Francis's views on 'all religions lead to God', which is a great heresy, that shouldn't be surprising.

[@swilliams7850]

@@ArchangelIcon He took the Eucharist under prior Popes as well.

[@irritated888]

This aught to get an interesting response from Gavin Ortland.

[@icxcnika7722]

If Gavin has any shred of integrity, he will receive Joe's critique with humility and acceptance. He'll also accept the gnostic tendencies in the Protestant logic behind iconoclasm.

[@Garry_Combine]

Calvinism is inherently Gnostic, ngl

[@Silverhailo21]

@@irritated888 I'm sure he will object and say something to the effect of oh that's not accurate or deny the tendency or what have you. Again he's a really sweet guy, nobody's questioning that but he's too invested in his particular sect to be able to see the reality of the situation I think.

[@irritated888]

@@Silverhailo21 "This is just an accretion"

[@HallowMas-m3s]

@@Silverhailo21 On the contrary, Gavin is an businessman with a heart of icy rocks. He's been entrusted with damage control for Protestantism by his father Ray Ortlund (who is top dog at The Gospel Coalition, a protestant media outlet) so that the family business doesn't tank with all the people who are becoming Catholic. The right thing to do would be bring this to a debate, but mark my words, he'll sneeze out another short, at most, and ignore his substantial critiques.

[@Λουθηρανισμός]

The biggest sign of gnosticism is the absence of belief that the sacraments are indeed Christ. James White is gnostic also.

[@Richard-e5m]

Nope. I've seen that opinion before, but the holder was not able to support it.

[@bonestobunnies3444]

We as reformed baptists believe in the real presence of Christ but not the physical presence of Christ in the eucharist. Saying that Christ is in the bread and wine spiritually doesn't fit the bill of gnostic. We don't hate the eucharist because it is a physical act nor do we deny it's benefit in our walks with Christ. Quite contrary to that we believe it necessary to partake in the blood and body. We simply don't believe that it is literally in every sense the body and blood because nature itself testifies that the bread you eat is not flesh and the wine you drink is not blood but the eyes of faith see Christ within these elements spiritually. Gnostic? No. Biblical? Yes.

[@idi3284]

@@bonestobunnies3444Honest question. Was all of Christendom, for 1500 years (and still the vast majority today) wrong about the Eucharist? Does the fullness of truth about the Lord’s Supper rest in some offshoot of Luther’s church, (since Luther himself would not dare deny the real presence)?

[@bonestobunnies3444]

@idi3284 It's funny that you say this because it's like you didn't hear what I said. We believe in the real presence of Christ but what does that mean functionally? In regards to history and the eucharist. Are you do certain that every one believed the same things regarding every doctrine for 1500 years? Is not possible that when the fathers spoke of real presence they ment so spiritually and not transubstantiation or anything of the sort? Assuming you are a Papist, do you believe that everyone for 1500 years believed in indulgences and the mass? Was that a universal truth always held by all without exception? How about the Marian dogmas? Appealing to church history in this way is not helpful by assuming everyone always believed the same thing always. It's laughable to read history so anachronistically. But if you are Lutheran or reformed or Protestant then my challenge would be the same in principle. Appealing to history would be even more absurd if you are Protestant because you ought to know that what the fathers believed varied. The Roman at least has an excuse because that's all they've been taught. So, if you are Roman or Protestant I still require of you proof from the Scriptures. If you can prove from the Scriptures transubstantiation or something of the same kind then I will believe you. I pray God lead us both into truth. God bless you.

[@eddardgreybeard]

@@Richard-e5m *Nope. I've seen that opinion before, but the holder was not able to support it.* Gnostics denied basically every sacrament but the laying of hands. Tell me how many sacraments you believe in.

[@AlterFunKtion]

"dont be religious, be Spiritual" Translation: dont go to a high church, go to a low church.

[@johannesstephanusroos4969]

That phrase is disgusting to me, a lifelong Protestant. Religion can be a bad thing, but being some woo-woo spiritual fake is not what pleases Christ, who is Lord and God

[@mallencons]

Or, more probable, don't go to church at all. What's the point?

[@EllieHiller]

This is so incredibly helpful. Thank you, Joe! I’ve been fascinated by this topic for long time and you articulated it well!

[@thisis_chavez]

I always pray that I become a successful Catholic Social Media Influencer to spread the teachings and Revelations of the Catholic Church and the entire Christendom. I hope and pray the Devotion to the Eucharist and the Holy Souls in Purgatory helps me. Our Lady Undoer of Knots, pray for us Chaste Heart of St. Joseph, pray for us St. Benedict, pray for us St. Francis of Assisi, pray for us St. Michael the Archangel, pray for us St. Clare of Assisi, pray for us St. Clare of Montefalco, pray for us

[@jmisssjb05]

I’m covering the topic of the Incarnation for the OCIA program at my parish, and I’m shamelessly using much of the material you’ve helped put together and articulated for it, Joe. I’m even making a playlist for reference and it’s mostly your videos lol. Thank you.

[@FeroxMinisterium]

Great Breakdown Brother! I would agree that as I continue to listen to these Protestants, a lot of what they believe falls into these heresies.

[@MythwrightWorkshop]

🎶You can't see it... IT'S GNOSTIC!🎶 🎵You gotta feel it... IT'S GNOSTIC!🎵 🎶You gotta KNOW it... IT'S GNOSTIC! IT'S GNOSTIC!🎶 boogie woogitey boogie woogitey🎶

[@oslivrosdananinha]

I believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Word made flesh. I see God in all the creation. Didnt understand how exactly what you mentioned applies to Christians and how Christians are gnostics. That is a caricature about christians you made there, not the truth. Maybe there are some who say they are christians and are gnostics but can't speak for the majority. I find what St. Ireaneus said about gnostica more likely speaking about catholics nowadays, about the statues and images.

[@MythwrightWorkshop]

@@oslivrosdananinha LOL! sorry for the confusion. I did not intend to insult Christians at all or in any way compare them to Gnostics--but rather CONTRAST these two incompatible faiths. The 70s disco song "It's Electric" described the gnostic worldview and I was using it to inject levity.

[@MathAdam]

Transgenderism reflects this notion by distinguishing between gender and biological sex.

[@scottgun00]

Good point! The "T" in "LGBT" has always been the point that shows that the rainbow stuff is entirely _politcal_ and talking out of both sides of its mouth. So when it's so-called "gay marriage" and adoption, their rhetoric is that only difference between men and women is a few body parts, no big deal. But then when it's trans, the rhetoric does a 180 and suddenly those body parts are _everything_ and how dare you prevent someone from mutilating their flesh to bring it into conformity with their spiritual (so to speak) identity! Nonsense on stilts.

[@2ndShiftMom]

The apostles' creed explicitly says the resurrection of "the body"

[@bobtaylor170]

Do Catholics really think there is any Protestant believer who DOESN'T believe in the Incarnation and the Resurrection?

[@StanleyPinchak]

​@@bobtaylor170apparently, some significant portion have this heretical belief

[@bobtaylor170]

@@StanleyPinchak exactly zero believing Protestants have such beliefs. It's appalling to me how ignorant Catholics are of Protestantism.

[@AlexDestroyerOfEarth]

​@@StanleyPinchak Completely unsubstantiated claim on your part. Proffer evidence, lest you continue to bear false witness.

[@StanleyPinchak]

@@AlexDestroyerOfEarth Tell me you didn't watch the video without telling me you didn't watch the video. Lol, there is an entire set of protestants called gnostics who hold this belief. See the work, Against Heresies by St Irenaeus.

[@clarkkent5442]

25:54 I run into argument from protestants consistently when I bring up the bread of life discourse. even though I remind them that until Jesus says "THE flesh profits nothing" every other time he refers to flesh in the discourse it's always possessive. its always MY flesh. but they always go back to the notion that the phrase "the flesh profits nothing" He's "of course" referring to His own flesh. it's like, no He's not. how can you not see this?

[@andyjones1982]

The full quote is: "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you-they are full of the Spirit and life." If it was "my flesh literally gives life" that would be your point of view. If it was "The words give life" that would be gnosticism. But he says neither.

[@bLaKeAnThOnY0]

⁠​⁠@@andyjones1982Christ does say His flesh literally gives life… He is not referring to His flesh here, otherwise it completely does away with His crucifixion and resurrection. “The Flesh” is often used to say we can’t understand things on our own, or by reason alone apart from God’s grace. Christs flesh clearly gives us life and does not count for nothing

[@andyjones1982]

​@@bLaKeAnThOnY0 common sense overridden by dogma here. "the flesh" means we are not saved by human effort. But there is a double entendre. We are saved by the the Spirit. We are saved by the crucifixion and resurrection, not literally by lumps of human flesh.

[@AJ_Jingco]

​@@andyjones1982 If the Flesh of Jesus Christ ✝️ literally meant *NOTHING.* Because almost ALL PROTESTants believe that the Bread of Life is just Symbolic, then how can we be SAVED from our Sins on the Cross of Calvary. If the Flesh of Jesus Christ ✝️ meant *NOTHING* to most PROTESTants because, Protestants do not believe in the Bread of Life Discourse.

[@bLaKeAnThOnY0]

@@andyjones1982so we are saved through the crucifixion… the crucifixion of Christ’s flesh, but at the same time you’re saying we are not saved by “lumps of human flesh”, seemingly in reference to Christ given the subject at hand is the Eucharist. To be frank, I really do not know what you mean at all, other than it came across quite blasphemous, if you could be a bit more specific as to your objection that would be helpful. Also, receiving the Eucharist is not a human work, it’s grace received through faith. It’s His work, not ours.

[@l21n18]

As for grace not being able to be communicated by physical things, spurgeon would have to ignore the biggest elephant in the room, the cross itself. Even if they downplay the importance of the incarnation, all reformed folks claim to believe in the centrality of Christ’s death on the cross for salvation. The only way to get around that would be to posit some invisible spiritual suffering as the real sacrifice and the physical part as just a show which would make references to the blood of Christ superfluous

[@jntwyatt]

Thanks for these videos, Joe. Your points are brilliant and well thought out. Sure helps me to understand.

[@yucatansuckaman5726]

This whole video blew my mind. I thought this was going to be something decent to listen to while i work but im going to have to watch this again and again. Amazing stuff!!!! Thank you!

[@closetocanada5604]

Thank you for doing what you do. Ave Christus Rex

[@ismarril]

As a former Spiritist (the doctrine by Allan Kardec), when I converted to Catholicism it was quite the shock to realize how gnostic I was and how deeply I had to untangle myself from it. In Spiritism I was taught all the standard lies: the old testament was bad, Jesus came to save us from an exterior and carnal judaism, catholicism is pagan, superstitious and ritualistic, spiritism is progressive, enlightened and interiorly transformative. Fortunately, the arguments are paper thin and laughably bad and all come down after a short examination of catholicism, which was my case. To give an example, spiritists say Jesus did not ressurrect, but instead became a spirit who later appeared in tangible form. And yet, one must merely open the bible to read his own words: "I'm not a ghost. Touch me. Give me something to eat." It's laughably bad. Spiritism thrives on an extremely selective and ignorant view of Jesus.

[@johannesstephanusroos4969]

Catholicism adds a lot of things Christ didn't approve of, so if anything, it's the modern day equivalent to the Pharisees

[@ismarril]

​@@johannesstephanusroos4969 I was taught things like "the catholic church was founded by Constantine for political reasons". After decades of carrying that belief, a simple history research debunked it. Looking in retrospect, it made me feel very disappointed in the people who passed it on to me (although I must say most of them are victims as well, and acting in good faith). I invite you to check these things out, ask God to guide you, and arrive at your own conclusions.

[@szymonmatusiak5381]

Thank you for your valuable and objective analysis. While writing an article on Zwingli to evangelical magazine I found his view on sacraments as Gnostic. Afterwards I saw such strong reservation to the belief that God acts through the matter in the large segment of Protestantism, especially the most part of evangelicalism. In my conversations I often quote the example of the Syrian Naaman (the use of ablution in Jordan River powered by the Holy Spirit), and healing of king Hezekiah with also a material thing - a lump of figs.

[@danielhoven570]

It was my discovery that the non-Denominational “charismatic” churches I grew up attending were gnostic that led me (among other things) to the Church. I felt like I was going crazy because nobody understood what I meant (and I wasn’t 100% sure either) but seeing this video is quite validating 😂

[@RagTagPwner]

Yeess!! Thank you for putting this together, it's exactly what I was starting to realize as I began to read into the early Church fathers and the heresies they condemned.

[@eucharistenjoyer]

Amazing content, I had heard a couple of times about this idea of Gnosticism in Protestantism, which seemed clear to me specially on their the anti-Sacramental views, but this video made it much more clear. I had no idea how Spurgeon and Calvin had such clearly gnostic views. I've also seen a Brazilian priest, Fr. Paulo Ricardo, talk about this difference in views between Protestant and Catholics, and the anti-matter view of protestants, in the differences between analogia entis and analogia fidei.

[@MW-eg4gu]

Believers such as Puritans, including the Pilgrims, in Britain, already were opposed to lineage, including hierarchy, and emphasized in their theology the priesthood of the believers. Once established in the New World, especially the new United States, this anti-lineage, including anti-hierachy, divided into other denominations. Christianity in the World Headquarters of Protestantism, the United States, is 80 percent non-Catholic and 20 percent Catholic. Of the Catholics, at least half are Protestantized Catholics. And this "Spiritual Only" heresy runs through American Christianity.

[@ryanmckenziegilbert4950]

lol me a non-dom Protestant realizing most of my theology is gnostic in its roots 😅 Lord have mercy on our ignorance. Love the videos and humility. Glory be to Jesus.

[@lukebrasting5108]

Would you entrust yourself to the care of any random person off the street to perform surgery on your body? No. So why you to put the care of your soul, the health of which is much more valuable than the health of your body, in the hands of an unqualified and incompetent teacher who has no authority to teach Chrsitianity in the first place?

[@TOB_IsTheAnswer]

Man, you are KILLING it lately. These topics are awsome. I'm a very busy person, but I always have time for a vid from The Hesch! Thanks for turning me Catholic 🫡

[@shamelesspopery]

You're so kind! Welcome home, and you're right: TOB *is* the answer to Gnosticism! 😅

[@alisterrebelo9013]

That picture of Mary, is one my absolute favourites!

[@AISurvivor-sh6dl]

This is a point that’s been on my mind for a while, in part because Karl Keating briefly mentioned it in his book Catholicism and Fundamentalism. This video really fleshed out that angle, and I think it gets explored further it could become a very powerful argument in favor of the Catholic Church. I’d love to see more videos delving into this topic!

[@da_seal_hi]

Abigail Favale (mentioned in @15:18) is now Catholic, by the way @shamelesspopery. She has a great conversion story and a great book on gender. Teaches at Notre Dame, I believe.

[@jonathanstensberg]

“How Protestants Argue Like Gnostics” by Trent Horn

[@genemyersmyers6710]

Love all your videos ,thank you ❤❤❤

[@isaias9516]

Dear Joe, I am a Protestant and I thank you for this well needed message. I concur with almost everything you said. In fact, I would go so far as to say that a majority of my fellow Protestants need to hear this today!

[@shamelesspopery]

Thank you!!

[@dunnsscotus5643]

I you still wanna remain protestant after this?

[@isaias9516]

@@dunnsscotus5643 This indictment cannot rightly fall to every Protestant tradition. Joe said as much several times throughout the video. So yes, I am very much so still Protestant. While I appreciated the truth in the video, it doesn’t take a RC to issue much of the same sentiments against his fellows.

[@megred7364]

Im so excited to see you cover this topic! So true!

[@paulmualdeave5063]

It is my understanding from this video (not finished it yet) that gnosticism denies the Body Temple dogma.

[@MyGamerView]

This was an interesting discussion. As a protestant I agree with the “conduit for good” in the sacraments, and liturgical worship of the Christian religion. I do think the Spurgeon quote was a little out of context, but I will say that I haven’t read, or recall that sermon so I can be mistaken, but from a charitable perspective, Spurgeon could have been more alluding to the need for the spirit in this forms of worship, and not merely the physical. This is not to say that the physical is in and of itself evil, but is ineffective for salvation. Faith without works is dead, but equally works without faith is dead also, it as you pointed out, requires both. Hope this message reaches you in good health.

[@RafalMazurek]

N. T. Wright (Anglican) often points out that stressing 'going to heaven' as the final goal, without keeping the resurrection in view, results from Platonist ideas that crept into Christianity and distorted the view of creation.

[@kennethruskin2710]

*Perfected the view of creation. Judaism was painfully inadequate on this front and frankly infernal.

[@RafalMazurek]

@@kennethruskin2710 Someone might like the idea of the body being a prison for the 'psyche' and that we need to free ourselves from it, but let's not call that Christianity. That's Platonism.

[@kennethruskin2710]

@@RafalMazurek _For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God._ & _If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?_ Although, mind you, although we might be entombed in matter Plato never argued for 'escape' from the flesh, but simply gnosis and communion with the Paternal First Intellect. Did you even read Plato's dialogues? Did you read the Enneads? The cultivation of the vision of the nous isn't at all the same as the gnostic escape from the evil of matter into the pleroma or the bright waters around God, although there are some similarities, to be sure, for both aspire to the heights, while some are crawling in the muck no better than dogs or other animals, exalting lower natures. The jew knew of no such higher things, but only a bloodthirsty demon. I ask you, what manner of God requests any sacrifice at all? For that being which is complete, the origin of all things, what lack or need could such possibly have? What need of sheep's blood or the agony of human victims? He from which all things descend, in want of something? Demanding tribute, He who is the origin of all wealth, excellence, beauty and Good? Like some jewish king after having decimated and murdered the people of Canaan pressing the survivors for money and goods? The Author of the All? If that were true the Gnostics must have been right. But I think not. Tell me, how many men did Jesus slaughter? How many did he extort? Did he bring about plagues upon the Roman? Did he lust after women? What kingdom spake he of? And if there is naught beyond this fleshy space, and soul is too ingrained with the corporeal too much for intelligible forms, then why spake he of Heaven? Nay, I say this, that if you accept the cosmology of the jew, without neither hell nor heaven proper, with murderous 'gods' and low animal appetites, and greed and enmity and great inequity, then surely the jews were right in rejecting Christ. For where was his golden palace? His hundred year reign of prosperity and goods and luxuries? Harems of women? Or fruits of great usury? Without Plato you'd have no immortal soul to worry about in the first place, and Christ as a good Hellenised jew, preached this as the Son of God to the most decrepit and immoral people there ever was. Who knew nothing of judgement other than direct corporeal consequences. Whose idea of the good, with small g for them, was restricted to worldly gains, worldly empire, and worldly temples. Whose pride was the appear godly, making a great show of it. Who wouldn't know humility if it hit them in the face. So I ask, if you adhere to the cosmos of the pre-Christ jews, the supposed elect master race of a cruel and envious deity, of war and of destruction, of ancestor worship and of genocide, how is it that you'd follow such a man as Jesus at all?

[@glotree]

One of the earliest, horrifying realizations I had in my journey from Southern Baptist to Catholic, which struck me light a lightening bolt: we Baptists were gnostics. I had been raised a heretic! 😧😅

[@EasternOrthodoxG9]

As a Orthodox convert from Protestantism, I see so much gnostic influence there. I'm glad I'm now in the fullness of the truth and don't need to see my body as a bad thing bud rather part of me by God's design.

[@thecatholiccatechistador]

Love you Joe! Thanks for this.

[@cunananhammer3146]

I love Abigail Favale. Her coming story on the coming home network and pints with aquinas episodes were great.

[@josh39684]

I wrote a critique of Protestantism and I brought up the parallels. I suggest reading Against Heresies by Irenaeus written in 180 ad. Even though it's written to refute gnosticism it is almost like he's refuting Protestantism. What does this sound like: It happens that their tradition (gnostics) respecting redemption is invisible and incomprehensible, as being the mother of things which are incomprehensible and invisible; and on this account, since it is fluctuating, it is impossible simply and all at once to make known its nature, for every one of them hands it down just as his inclination prompts. Thus there are as many schemes of redemption as there are teachers of these mystical opinions. And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith. - St Irenaeus of Lyons

[@Richard-e5m]

It's problem for you that is not Protestantism. You make the same sort of mistake that many Protestants make on Roman Catholicism.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Going through the works of St Irenaeus are in my top 10 list. Being born on June 28, and discovering how important he is to the early history of the Church has been an eye opener. I'd always assumed as a kid that I had a 'dud' Saint.

[@josh39684]

​@@alisterrebelo9013the fact he didn't become a doctor of the church until 2020 is a travesty

[@MrRotwell]

Another home run. Love the channel.

[@damnedmadman]

This is probably the best Christian channel on KZbin ever! Thanks 🙏

[@RA4J]

You just made me realize transubstantiation must be true. The manna in the desert was from heaven alone, not from the earth. Since Christ is both of man and God, heaven and earth together, the Temple, then obviously the bread is from earth but Christ enters it in time, just as He entered into the world and later into the Church as His Body.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Correct, denial of transubstantation in the Eucharist is a form of denial of the Incarnation, which is another type of gnostic thinking that has infected the minds of people like Dr Michael Brown.

[@ScottChase-f3r]

If transubstantiation is true, as you rightly state, then the Catholic Church is the one true church!

[@johannesstephanusroos4969]

​@@ScottChase-f3r The one true church is who Christ said it is, not a Roman fakery rife with dogmatic error, it is people, humans. Any who believe in Jesus Christ are saved and sanctified by Him alone

[@agentjs09]

Former Protestant, now Catholic of 13 years. Regarding the bodily resurrection of the faithful. As a young protestant, I had this understanding of our own resurrection, that it was spiritual only. I definitely believed in the bodily resurrection of Christ, though I didn't really have a firm understanding of why, or the significance of it. In fairness to my dad, a reformed presbyterian minister who was largely responsible for my faith formation, that this understanding was not the result of his teaching, as he clearly believes in the bodily resurrection of the faithful. It must have come from one of the Sunday school teachers I had growing up.

[@hismajesty6272]

As a Protestant who is going to become Anglican, the extremely laxed attitude of my low church brothers is disturbing.

[@geoffjs]

Curious, why not Catholicism?

[@Kitiwake]

​@@geoffjs I say with respect, because the op falsely believes that they can access the sacrements and stay in good standing with their family and friends. Point 2 .. Yes probably save the relationships etc. Point one, Anglican holy orders are invalid and Anglicans have no place at the communion table of the Catholic church. Ordinariate requires the full acceptance of the Catholic faith, in this case that particularly refers to obedience of the authority of the pope.

[@IowerthLord]

Joe, your podcasts are amazing, especially those dealing with the Eucharist and the heresy of once saved always saved. Thank you. I came to the Church partly out of seeing someone receive the Eucharist in the hospital. I was a bit of something between Methodist (my father) and Lutheran (my mother), and I have to say that this prepared me to appreciate the Eucharist more because in some sense I always knew that Christ's spirit was present in the offering by accepting consubstantiation (as in the Lutheran Church I attended) and in the necessity of evidencing the Spirit in the producing of works pleasing to God. I also learned in my Methodist lessons that it was possible to lose one's salvation if we do not continue to follow Christ and keep His Commandments. I can specifically recall going to a Midnight Service at the end of Good Friday at my local Methodist Church wherein they offered it, and from what the pastor was saying and from what I felt, I KNEW that whether they will admit it or not, a lot of Methodists believe in the Real Presence, they just simply aren't aware that they do. I also came to the Church because of a direct attack by the demonic, which I will never believe otherwise that the demonic were not involved based on the circumstances of the attack (which happened a few weeks after my first Mass). Transubstantiation makes TOTAL sense now that I have read up on it, thanks to your website and these videos. From your lessons I have been able to fend off the following arguments against it: 1) The Eucharist is cannibalism. This is false, because Christ is ALIVE and conquered death. His glory defies all description, and His flesh is glorified flesh. He is also fully God and fully Man, yet also of a substance beyond mere flesh. Cannibalism requires the killing of people, but the flesh that is consumed thereafter is DEAD where human cannibalism is concerned. Christ CONQUERED DEATH, and His flesh cannot die, unlike ordinary flesh. It is directly from the Living God and defies mortal understanding or composition. 2) He commands us to take it. The use of "trogon" in John 6:53 when describing eating His flesh LITERALLY means to "chew," or "to gnaw." This was said after he used a less direct method when first prescribing this commandment, which was why Christ doubled down by repeating it, but with more direct language so it was clear. This is why some people abandoned his teachings after they heard Him say this. And the language of Matthew's text in the Last Supper does not say "This is like unto my body," but "THIS IS MY BODY." I can't tell you how many varieties of arguments I have faced that try to twist the truths of these verses to fit an agenda. 3) We are NOT sacrificing Christ every time we receive the Eucharist. Christ's power is infinite, and yes He died once, contrary to the accusation that the Church makes Him do it over and over. Christ in offering His life and by overcoming death in the Resurrection has, in effect, been an act by HIM which is in effect a glorious meal beyond Human understanding in its grace and not a thing He must produce over and over again. The meal has been laid out for us on a great table, and if we repent and are humble we are encouraged to partake of its Divine power. The table will never be cleared, we have the promise. 4) The Fathers all affirmed that IT IS His body and blood. I can't tell you how thankful I am for you providing quotes and materials from the Fathers (especially Ignatius, Polycarp, Augustine, and others) who ALL affirm this truth, and like the teaching on the sacrament of baptism (and the other sacraments) it has remained immutable since its first offering, given by Christ Himself. 5) We should not eat flesh or drink the blood of that which is sacrificed. Obviously this comes from the debate at the Council of Jerusalem, most especially in the idea of the drinking of blood, something ascribed to Pagans at the time. I have seen, from your careful scholarship, that there is CLEARLY and undercurrent of Gnosticism that has crept into UNCOUNTED Christian denominations which essentially asserts that the body is utterly corrupt, is of no use, and that we are in effect "meat puppets" meant only as mere vessels of the soul, whereas Christ's body is INCORRUPTIBLE. So again, this argument fails. I'm trying to read "Against Heresies" right now, it is just difficult language to read at times, as are some of the works of the other Fathers. Please keep up the good work. Thank you. God Bless you and your family, and a thousand, thousand, blessings of the Lord upon your home and all those who would enter therein. Amen. Pax, brother.

[@IowerthLord]

One more thing, if you have any talks on Monophysitism or writings thereof on the subject, please let me know. I am also learning of the dangers of what I refer to as "Neo-Montanism," which emphasizes a state of preaching that in my opinion dangerously approaches mediumship, which we MUST reject.

[@anthonytoussaint1565]

I recently left gf because of this. She claimed to be Christian but believed in other new age stuff. It’s crazy how when we read early church fathers and writings of the saints how ridiculous it is to have such beliefs but yet with an understanding of why people in this current day do so. God bless you all 🙏🏽☦️

[@jahamilton]

Im sure its there, but as someone who attends a southern baptist church, when doing a bible study about this our groups pastor made it a point that the body is not evil because it was created for good by God.

[@John_Fisher]

Good point, the Gnosticism certainly isn't universal in Protestantism, plenty of Protestants are diligent about rejecting Gnosticism and combating those who reject the resurrection of the body. However, there is also the problem of some who would reject Gnosticism if asked about it explicitly, but otherwise will state things and have actions that go along with the implicit Gnosticism of treating spiritual as equivalent to good and material as equivalent to bad; we all have to be attentive to our thoughts and words and be willing to ask how consistent we are being with our faith.

[@Kitiwake]

You can say that in defense of protestantism. But protestantism itself is a heresy. Are there various levels of heresy? No.

[@jahamilton]

@@Kitiwake So protestants are doomed to hell no matter how much they love God? No matter their relationship with God looks like? My issue with catholicism is the idea of church authority being equal to scripture. The bivle tells us that scripture is enough for equipping us with every good work and being complete with scripture. Then in catholicism you say that you disagree with what Paul is saying and that you actually need the church tradition. That's something I just can't wrap my head around. Not to say church tradition has no value, but if it's not biblically based I just can't trust it as much.

[@John_Fisher]

@@Kitiwake Hi there Kitiwake. I'm not sure that this criticism is helpful without first celebrating the truth that jahamilton is trying to share in common with us. Yes, it is true that we have a missionary obligation that includes inviting Protestants to join full union with the Church. As the Catechism says, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her." (855) However, when someone like jahamilton expresses an area of common ground, this is something we can and should celebrate rather than degrade. As paragraph 843 of the Catechism says: The Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life." If this is true for even non-Christians, how much more so for those of whom the Church teaches: "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter" (838)

[@John_Fisher]

@@jahamilton Hi Jahamilton. I can't speak for Kitiwake, but the Church does not teach that "protestants are doomed to hell no matter how much they love God", if any Catholic takes this then they are disagreeing with the clear, authoritative teaching of the church. I do not think that your representation of what Paul and the Bible at large teaches is accurate, there is important disagreement there that is worth discussion, but it is not the case that anyone is doomed "No matter their relationship with God looks like" nor does the Church teach that.

[@TheShard1771]

I'm surprised you didn't cover the Gnosis aspect of saying Jesus is Lord & Savior and automatically achieving salvation under OSAS.

[@femaleKCRoyalsFan]

Told someone OSAS wasn't biblical..he or she (not sure since I blocked the person) told me to enjoy hell.yes, seriously!

[@Sharkman1963]

Charles Spurgeon needed to listen to Dr. Brant Pitre's video called "The Jewish Roots of the Eucharist".

[@bengoolie5197]

Another excellent, truthful presentation! Thank you Joe, for all you do.

[@bengoolie5197]

Another brilliant and wonderful presentation! Thanks for all you do.

[@RandallvanOosten-ln5wf]

As a Protestant Evangelical pastor I can assure you that the Gnostic notion that the "real" person is a spirit is prevalent in much of Evangelicalism. Our bodies are typically called our "earth suit" and the following heretical statement is proudly proclaimed from pulpits: "You are a spirit with a soul living in a body." The statement is raw Gnosticism and thoroughly non-Christian. It is also a precursor to another heresy, Antinomianism.

[@AllanKoayTC]

QUESTION: how can i get a cool Catholic Answers polo shirt like yours?

[@John_Fisher]

Look for the clothing section under the 'Great Catholic Gifts' category on their website.

[@AllanKoayTC]

@@John_Fisher thanks!

[@austinchinwe7968]

Thank you for opening my eyes on Charles Spurgeon…. His arguments as you outlined here were so pathetic even going against the written words in the bible….

[@David_Alvarez77]

I agree. I was quite amazed.

[@jesuslovesyou2024]

I find it really inspiring how you use your God given talent to apply legal logic to church history and theology without being pharisaical. Really a beautiful thing to see how you apply your passion to research church history and the eloquence with which you present your analysis - in a balanced, clear headed and charitable manner. May God continue to bless you and keep you and protect you and your family.

[@JayRedding12_12]

I remember when when I discovered Apostolic Succession, I realized my "ordination" was invalid and it made SO much more sense. It was then I understood I was calling myself to prot ministry and God was actually Calling me to a deeper relationship with Him.

[@coltsavage4490]

interesting You bring this up because i've noticed this problem, and I'm a Protestant. One day, a guy Who was an evangelical told me that he sinns several times just by walking in the grocery store.But that's okay because his soul is in heaven

[@coltsavage4490]

I remember thinking to myself that sounds a lot more like Gnostic texts than early christians. Saint Cyril of jerusalem refutes a lot of gnostic arguments

[@jonatasmachado7217]

The gnostic flavour of Protestantism is hard to miss

[@KeithHostetler-n5j]

The same is true of Catholicism. Some of this is like the pot calling the kettle black.

[@oslivrosdananinha]

What about using imagens for adorations, said by St. Irieneus de Lyon that they who used it were like the gnostics.. I've seen pictures of the pope kissing a statue of Mary mother of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[@cameronbailey9704]

St. Irenaeus, pray for us!

[@johnbrowne2170]

He wont. The Bible condemns communication with the dead.

[@johnbrowne2170]

@@AlexisHernandez-f7s Stop praying to those who have passed on. Stop praying to dead bodies and parts of dead bodies that have bee mummified. They can't help you. Pray only to God through Jesus.

[@johnbrowne2170]

@@AlexisHernandez-f7s No one but God has the power. There are people who think they can ignore God and find another way to the Father. They are wrong.

[@johnbrowne2170]

@@AlexisHernandez-f7s Go ahead, waste your time. Jesus lives and only Jesus saves.

[@DrChaunceyBlevins]

What a fantastic episode. By the end I was walking around mouth agape in deep thought.

[@jmorra]

Bravo to you!! As a protestant, we need you Joe!