The Gods and Worship: Answering Questions from a Christian

[@OceanKeltoi]

The Latent Christianity Jesus in a Suitcase appears in the video three times. If you're a real Trinitarian you can find all three.

[@AMcAFaves]

I don't need to find Latent Christianity Jesus in a Suitcase three times in the video. I already have found Latent Christianity Jesus in a Suitcase in my heart. 😉

[@kevincrady2831]

That's the thing about Latent Christianity, there's so much to unpack. 😉

[@kameelelian6044]

How do we in this modern world make offering and sacrifices to the gods is there a right or wrong way?

[@Inpwmdwa]

​@@kameelelian6044 people still give animal sacrifices today as it is protected under the 1st amendment

[@VesperOfRoses]

The "do the gods interact with the modern world" is such a funny question to me. Does the wind blow? Do people fall in love, give birth, die, celebrate, and war with each other? Does the earth revolve around the sun? Do the streams and rivers continue to flow? Do thunder and lightning still ravage the skies?

[@bezoticallyyours83]

Perfect answer

[@dolfuny]

I know very little about polytheism and I love watching and learning about it, keep up the good work

[@OceanKeltoi]

I'm glad to see it. I want people to learn more about it.

[@PurpleRhymesWithOrange]

Wonderful introduction! Having spent decades in the Pagan community I know how difficult it is to get people to understand how diverse Paganism is.

[@smoky3302]

I was first called a pagan during my trip to U.K. I didn't understand at that that time what it was as I am a Hindu but by doing research I came to knew that Europe even middle East had an polytheistic and diverse relegious tradition . But I thought they were dead didn't know that some people still follow it.

[@kirstencorby8465]

It's not really "still." It's follow it again. People badly wanted to believe in a true unbroken pagan survival in Europe, but it didn't really happen. That's why people like Ocean Keltoi call themselves "reconstructionist."

[@mangleman25]

Not so much that they still worshiped them, moreso people came to know these gods again in the modern age and wanted to revive or reconstruct these traditions, restoring reverence to deities who for a long while there were lost to time due to persecution under Christian tyranny. Idk if it started directly with him but the revival of paganism in its current form took place in large part thanks to Gerald Gardner, who founded Wicca. I think it was after that that more forms of ancient paganism started to be reconstructed.

[@WolfestoneManor]

I gave an interview on Pinecreek and I had to be clear that there ie no such orthodoxy that atheists are used to with the major monotheisms. Its often daunting to explain

[@snorribjorn5074]

Yet again, a very well thought out and well researched video. Thank you. On a personal note, in the past I have generally referred to my interactions with the gods as "veneration" rather than "worship" when discussing my beliefs with those who are unfamiliar with polytheism. This is, of course, not without it's drawbacks, and does not apply to all polytheists or pagans (as what does, really), but I have found that it often helped to give others a starting point from which to begin a discussion. (Of course, this can also lead to misunderstandings and confusion, especially when the person I'm talking with is a big fan of Thomas Aquinas.) So I very much appreciate your take on the matter. (I'm also a fan of alliteration, so that's an big bonus to boot.) Again, thank you.

[@OceanKeltoi]

I use the term veneration as well. I rarely use the word worship, and I think that's because of how Christianity has kinda warped the meaning of the word.

[@vinx.909]

More atheist asking question (but really just wanting to know and not trying to debunk or something of that nature): 1: what is the nature of the gods? Humans are made of cells that interact with each other, what's your idea of what makes up the gods? 2: how do you come to your conclusion on what gods do and don't exist? 3: does (your version of) polytheism help you with the questions of 'where did we come from?' And 'what happens to us when we die?' I hope my questions weren't stupid or even worse wrong.

[@Heliocoptero]

They're the perfect sort of questions to highlight the specifics of a polytheist point of view

[@sigalius]

(what gods do and don't exist?) I think this is the easiest question to answer of the three. Hopefully you don't take this as a cop out. The way I personally would answer this is by saying deities that are attested are deities that exist. Now, what qualifies "attested" is the complicated part, but I'd argue that essentially the rule of thumb is "was the god a member of a pantheon and worshipped by the culture to which that pantheon corresponds?" And there are caveats. It should be a deity that was part of genuine religious practices (in other words, not the Flying Spaghetti Monster). It should be a deity that was conventionally seen as a deity and not some kind of ancestor, spirit, ghost, or demon. (Again this is my personal opinion.) And also, it should be a deity that is generally coherent, not self-contradictory in its essential nature, and one which neither precludes the worship of nor excludes the existence of other gods (which have, prior to this, already been demonstrated). Just as a post script (and test if you will), one obvious question would be the God of the Bible: does He exist? My answer would be this: Yahweh, the god of the Israelites, does exist; but it is improbable that the version of Yahweh that was modified after Persian (Ahura Mazda) and Greek ("the One" unitary Being) influence is the genuine Yahweh. This is actually corroborated by the fact that after that point (of the influence) the descendants of the Israelites no longer called him Yahweh, but things like Adonai. And Christians don't typically call the God Yahweh either, opting instead for conventions derived from the Septuagint.

[@sigalius]

does (your version of) polytheism help you with the questions of 'where did we come from?' And 'what happens to us when we die?' The short answer is "yes" and that can be satisfied by readings of the creation myths and various texts describing whatever that culture's notion of the afterlife (if any) was. But I would re-frame the question by pointing to the reason that people adhere to polytheistic traditions. You'll often hear (and rightly so) that pagans aren't as concerned with believing the right thing as they are with rituals and praxis. Ritual and various religious practices make the life of the practitioner---here and now---satisfying and give them the sense of fulfillment. I have compiled the following list (mostly why I was no longer satisfied with atheism when I was one and after a time when I was anti-religion). Reasons why I think people stay in or are attracted by religion: sense of community (which engenders personal relationships) feeling of being anchored or grounded comfort that comes from ritual and set practices sense of connection with the Divine sense of purpose and value satisfaction of having a coherent and developed worldview access to guidance (or, separately, having role models or mentors in some cases) sense of continuity with the past or with ancestors being a part of, or in service to, something much greater than yourself divination, exorcism, magic and other such means of dealing with problems which could not otherwise be dealt with outside of religion (or spirituality)

[@kirstencorby8465]

As regards the afterlife, the general pagan sense, I think you could say, is "Live a good life now, and the next will take care of itself." There is an afterlife, if you live virtuously it will be worthwhile. Other than that it's all a matter of personal opinion.

[@vinx.909]

@@kirstencorby8465 why do you suspect the better afterlife will be given to virtuous people? It is not equally likely greedy people would get the better afterlife.

[@shellyarp1826]

Okay but....the amount of Christian ads on these videos crack me up😂😂😂

[@Greenfrog777]

When it comes to the question of conflict between the Gods, I always like the metaphor of a clock, with each gear representing a God. Each gear may apply pressure to or resist the pressure of other gears, creating points of conflict, but with the greater whole of Divinity, the conflicts form a part of universal harmony. This too allows each God to be omnipotent, as each individual's powers, if removed, deprive the entire system of its potency; each God is, in Their own sense, the center of all Divinity.

[@taylorlibby7642]

Questions from an atheist- How does one go from disbelief in one god to belief in a multiplicity of gods? Or was there some other path? How do you decide which gods to choose? Do you create your own pantheon? Catch on with an exisiting one? If you decide on one pantheon, does that imply a disbelief in others? Or does belief in one pantheon imply a belief in all others? Sorry if these seem basic or even disrespectful, they're definitely not meant to be.

[@witchypoo7353]

They aren’t disrespectful at all. Honestly, I love answering questions & asking them. & questions that are basic are okay, we have to start learning things somewhere. Thank you so much for trying to understand us. & the answer to all of your questions are that it depends on the individual. We are a very diverse group & very hard to define as well. I would say that many if not most polytheistic pagans see all deities from all pantheons as plausible. While it’s impossible to tell how many gods there are, we do know that all of our religions & deities are connected.

[@taylorlibby7642]

@@witchypoo7353 Makes sense. Just very interesting to me how some in their questioning of religion come to a place of skepticism and rejection of religion, and some go completely the other way and double-down so to speak. Thanks for taking the time to answer!

[@witchypoo7353]

@@taylorlibby7642 you’re very welcome. If you have other questions, please let me know

[@riverseeber514]

Have you done a video on *why* you believe what you believe? I'm really interested in this, could somebody link it or something?

[@adamgrotto8163]

I'm curious too!

[@ratamacue0320]

.

[@stevenricks1703]

Another vote for a video on this!

[@greggor07]

I'd like to know that too. Interesting if he has any good reasons to believe in the gods or if his hinting at personal experience is the same as evangelical crap

[@trollunderbridge2292]

That would be an interesting conversation.

[@diamondflaw]

"Me gabbing about a lot of pagan shit" Yup, that's why I'm here.

[@00zmb00]

I'm on an Ocean binge! Love your videos man

[@nancymcqueen8734]

I am a polytheist with henotheist leanings. As a Shakta, I have a ishta devata (chosen deity). But being endlessly curious I seek out knowledge on any belief system, so I know the lay of the land.

[@clevi7963]

Would you consider making a video talking more about your personal beliefs?

[@OceanKeltoi]

Some videos on Heathenry are in the pipeline. I’ve been hinting at my personal spirituality, but putting that kind of stuff out there can be frustrating.

[@DrDino123]

I always love watching your videos. I have a lot of questions but I don't know where to start lol

[@aristosbywater9605]

Man, I was surprised when I got attacked on a polytheist Instagram page recently because I had a different interpretation on making offerings and its purpose. They started using terms like, "To the non-believer" like Christian's address heretics even though I stated I was of Orphic Hellenismos. Then the owner of the page after berating me and saying his tradition was older and more correct banned me from the page. The same page bio said, "Think for yourself" on it. It is sad when toxicity is in our community. Shouldn't we all be tolerant and protect each other from these actions as a pagan community? Shouldn't we be a positive community?

[@witchypoo7353]

Ocean talks about what he calls, Latent Christianity quite a bit & that is a perfect example of that

[@bezoticallyyours83]

Ugh, sorry you came across jerks like that

[@fire9722]

Some things I think would be interesting is the difference between worldview and ritual. Like, does agreeing with pagan worldview make you pagan, or actually practicing and looking at the variation in interpretation with that. And with that, possibly comparing the mindsets behind recon vs revivalism and even neopagan movements? That's a few different topics, but all ones that I'd be interested in hearing your perspective on.

[@witchypoo7353]

That would be very interesting. Btw, what are the differences between reconstructionism, revivalism, & neo paganism? I’ve heard them used a lot but I don’t understand the differences

[@luancosta1908]

Hey, I can make you a question? I'm a Christian, I believe in one true God and..you know... the usual. But of course I know I can be wrong, and all I have is my personal experience and that's the reason why I don't judge other people's personal spiritual journey because as long we live here this kind of topic is incognito. And thanks to that I usually am a little nervous with the idea of telling this to people, and sometimes feel like I'm not a real Christian because of this or that I'm wrong for being like this... Do you have any advice for me? It's making me crazy and I'm not brave enough to talk about this to any of my Christian friends...

[@jestersnb9761]

First off, it's such a shame that you're not able to converse about this with other Christians. Especially about something so mundane and not egregious, such as tolerance of other peoples' spirituality. This isn't something to be ashamed of and is the first step for any inter-faith conversation; you aren't wrong for not being an arrogant fool who thinks he knows it all.

[@luancosta1908]

​@@NekoDalian Yeah, I know, I think honesty about the limitations of your beliefs is a good thing. But still sucks this stupid self-doubt because I'm not doing it like everyone else... Kinda makes me feel excluded from the group.

[@luancosta1908]

@@jestersnb9761 I really appreciate what you said, man... And even tho I like being tolerant and all this other stuff, still sucks feeling like you are not a part of the big group.

[@OceanKeltoi]

So, given your justifications, you should ask yourself, on what basis do you deny polytheism? If you believe in your god because of personal experiences, should you not also give credence to the genuine personal spiritual experiences of others?

[@luancosta1908]

@@OceanKeltoi Yes, totally! Everyone has the right to believe in what they want to and everyone's experience has value, since (at least in my view) is the only way to have contact with the eternal (being the God that I believe or the Gods other people believe). I just sometimes feel like I'm the wrong one, it's stupid I know, but it sucks not having anyone to talk about it...

[@streamoflillies2345]

You mentioned that It can be intimidating to approach learning about paganism. Could you make a sort of primer course, about the basics of Helenistic vs Germanic vs Kemetic and any other common categories? or maybe just good resources to learn about these?

[@witchypoo7353]

I would love to know some other people’s options on their gods are. I am a polytheistic Wiccan, I believe that there are many different pantheons & that every religion’s God’s exist. I think they also value atheists for their practicality. I also do not think that they are omnipotent. I do think that they have conflicts. & I think they have a lot of interest in all living things, they are just limited on how much they can help.

[@witchypoo7353]

Thank you Ocean Keltoi you made my day.

[@witchypoo7353]

Christopher M Hansen I agree with that last part. Thank you for making me think about that. But thankfully they at least do their jobs.

[@zandybyrd]

I’d love some recommendations on books, articles, or videos that describe what makes a god a god versus a spirit. Like is there a clear hierarchy and how have people in the past distinguished this

[@mangleman25]

As an Eclectic Wiccan myself, I'm still figuring out if i consider myself a polytheist or a pantheist, or maybe if there's something of an in-between possible there. I've had personal experiences of calling on gods and something coming out of it, but as said, I'm still figuring it out.

[@jasminemarseilles5070]

Funny this video came up after I started reading The Gods of Reason by Timothy Jay Alexander which is a book on Hellenic theology. It's quite interesting.

[@lucideandre]

What differentiates Wiccans from other pagans? I mean, I understand there is overlap (Wiccans are pagans too, right?), but it’s seemed to me from what I’ve heard that there’s something that sets them apart. I’d like to know what that is...

[@madisonrhuebaker]

Wicca is a modern religion created by Gerald Gardner in the 50's or 60's (I think that's the time period, but I'm no expert on Wicca). As its own religion, it has different branches of tradition. Wicca is its own separate entity. They are inspired by pagan concepts and sometimes worship pagan gods-- or two deities, The Lord & The Lady, representing divine masculine and divine feminine. Norse Paganism, Hellenic Paganism, etc... is not involved with the tradition of Wicca-- as Wicca is its own religion. So, for example, I'm a Hellenic polytheist... which means I worship the Greek pantheon of gods. The word "pagan" or "neo-pagan" is an umbrella term that refers to beliefs that take away from pre-Christian religion/spirituality. A whole crowd of people could all say, "I'm Pagan!" but they all believe entirely different things... for example, Asatru, Celtic polytheism, Wicca, Druidism, Egyptian polytheism, Nordic polytheism, Anglo-Saxon paganism, Hellenic Paganism, the list goes on and on and on... These things overlap in that they stem from pre-Christian beliefs/tradition, but they are all different from one another. The ancients that these beliefs came from did not have the type of structure that Christianity does (maybe some of the more distinct mystery cults did, but we don't have any documents on them). And belief changed depending on what city you went to. For example, in Sparta, Aphrodite was a war goddess.. in Athens, Aphrodite was worshiped as a goddess of Heavenly love. There was no, "you must believe this, or you will burn for eternity." That is not a pagan way of thinking. Paganism was about what you DID at the end of the day, the time you took out for the gods, the offerings you gave them, observance of holy days, etc etc etc... not as much emphasis is on belief. I hope I explained that without sounding super confusing!! lol

[@witchypoo7353]

Madison Baker That was beautifully put. I was just going to say that Wicca was created by Gerald Gardner in the 50s & was a collection of different pagan & magickal practices (even though many Wiccans don’t practice magick he was obsessed with it.) & that basically all Wiccans are pagan but not all pagans are Wiccan. But I think what you put was much better. I myself am a Wiccan & while I do worship the god & goddess I also worship the Celtic gods. I am not sure about pagans that are not Wiccan but many Wiccans like myself are solitary practitioners.

[@mermalade_]

My question to you, and sorry if you get this all the time, is outside of Thor and Skadi, which deities are in your pantheon and how do they reflect on your personal journey? I'm also curious about what kind of rituals you do, but I understand if that is too personal to respond to.

[@DarchieB]

Really interesting stuff!

[@AMcAFaves]

I found that a very enjoyable and interesting video.

[@bookbreakdown2743]

This may come off dumb my apologies if it does. What is the difference between heathenry and asatruism? (Sorry if that is phrased wrong) personally I’m a Hellenistic polytheist and am plain curios. Thanks!

[@OceanKeltoi]

Terms are fuzzy, but Asatru specifically refers to Icelandic Heathenry. Heathenry is an umbrella term for Germanic Polytheism. But people still use them interchangeably.

[@thehumanistisin9924]

I'm Hellenic as well, but a practicing Witch too. I've also worked with other pantheons, even Norse. So... eclectic tendencies?

[@piousphilosophy7538]

As a heathen, how do you view the gods of other pantheons? Do you generally view them as different forms of the same deities or separate beings altogether?

[@OceanKeltoi]

Personally, my view is that they are separate altogether.

[@OceanKeltoi]

@Radagast I've actually found the opposite, that the traditions and characteristics are often wildly different compared to expectations.

[@OceanKeltoi]

@Radagast I'm not denying there's similarities. I'm just saying the differences are huge.

[@OceanKeltoi]

@Radagast I think you're pointing to me saying something that I'm not. I wouldn't hold the claim that they aren't connected, or that it's not possible that they're referencing the same deity. And to make a quick reference to Baldr and Apollo, yeah they're wildly different. Baldr has two legends about him that are wildly different even from each other. I'd be hard pressed to find similarities between the two except that they are both references to light. Apollo probably bears more similarity with Freyr or Bragi than Baldr. But to make the point, yeah the similarities are there. And there's likely connections or traveling ideas there. But we're also not looking at carbon copy transitions from culture to culture, which is often what archetypal claims about the gods are trying to put forward, that the differences are so minimal that they may as well be regarded as the same thing, when really it's just oversimplifying the complexity of the individual traditions for the sake of those similarities.

[@Crunchifyable2]

I think it needs further discussion. Roman syncretism? Germanic syncretism? Common source vs very hard polytheism. Or borrowing from other pantheons. Or using other pantheons to build up understanding of lesser known dieties or demoted / not written much about gods.

[@quellinsabahart9154]

Depends on what type of "heretical trinitirian...", I laughed out loud.

[@ApollonianShy18]

O thank you for this ❤

[@ErikrNorthman]

Aye, I have had multiple conversations with a man that believes differently, but we both still fit under this Pagan umbrella and we both respect one another's perspectives aswell as recognize simple truths. None of us were there when the world was made, after all. Skål! 🍻

[@paulbutler9905]

I'm an atheist but I come here to understand you better on your terms. It seems to me that more mutual understanding between our groups can only be a positive. Besides it's possible that you're right and I'm wrong...

[@stairwayunicorn4861]

if gods be beings they must have a nature, separate or subservient to the nature they represent. in light of this, what response is to be expected of those gods who are worshiped as if the above be true?

[@kevincrady2831]

I would be curious to hear your take on merged and fissioned deities, such as Hermes Trismegistus (a fusion of the Egyptian god Djehuti/Thoth and the Greek god Hermes). Fissioned deities would be where a single deity splits into two or more aspects that become distinct deities. I can't think of any Norse or Greek examples, but the Egyptian god Amun and the goddess Amaunet (who was originally Amun's hand) is one example. Egyptian deities are almost quantum-mechanical in the way they can fuse into composites (Re-Horakhty, Amun-Re, etc.), fission (the Seven Hathors), or have blurry boundaries (Hathor, Sakhmet, and Auset/Isis seem to shape-shift into one another). There are plenty of times in history when one people conquers another, that the conquerors' deities merge with the deities of the conquered (Hermes Trismegistus, Serapis, Zeus being identified with Amun, etc. after Alexander conquered Egypt, African or Mesoamerican deities getting merged with Catholic saints, and so on). How would this work on the level of the gods and goddesses themselves, and why would the fortunes of empires and battles among humans have that kind of effect on deities?

[@robertetter9713]

I see the Gods as powerful Spirits. And the mythology associated with them. Is based upon the Shamans interaction with them.

[@Dinx45]

I can't wait for all of the angry Christian's who try to tell him he is wrong.

[@OceanKeltoi]

They seem to get most frustrated when one accurately represents them and criticizes the faith.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

@@paradisecityX0 accurately represents. been there, done that, never ever again.

[@corypowercat7277]

I remember my time answering questions from an atheist. This individual assumed we're like Wiccans or Asautru/Odinist. I wish I had answered them as well as you did. I also notice Greco pagans are kind of pricks to Norse. Have you also noticed this?

[@konradpanduram4576]

The greco pagans have a lot of written relics and still upright temples, I think that's why.

[@OceanKeltoi]

Sometimes. It depends on the individual. But I won’t pretend I havent seen that trend before in Hellenism.

[@_pink_clovers]

I'm an atheist, but this theology is really cool. I'm an ex Christian so I gotta ask this though lol. Do you think a version of Yahweh exists, who inspired Judaism and Christianity?

[@OceanKeltoi]

Probably. But not as a trinitarian deity, and not as a quad-omni deity. Yahweh would just be another god among many.

[@witchypoo7353]

I agree with Ocean Keltoi I also think Jesus could exist as a demigod. I’ve watched documentaries read articles, & even watched KZbinrs discuss this topic after doing research, & they all say that basically all religions kind of blend together because when different cultures interact they influence one another. A lot of Christianity has a lot of pagan especially Hellenic influence.

[@_pink_clovers]

@@OceanKeltoi interesting, thanks for the response ☺️

[@OceanKeltoi]

@@_pink_clovers Absolutely!

[@_pink_clovers]

@@witchypoo7353 thank you for responding! Interesting

[@cbjork29]

I want an Ocean book about the norse gods!

[@raymondwhatley9954]

As an Atheist who recently discovered your channel because of my love of mythology (particularly Norse mythology) I actually do have some questions. One question that I did have before seeing your Mythic Literalism video was whether it was appropriate around pagans to use the word "myth" and apparently it is, so that's cool. I guess my biggest question, or rather concern, is that I discovered your gods in the context of stories from a bygone time. I discovered them when I was little and I grew up absolutely loving those stories. I never thought much about it because for me they were just wonderful and evocative stories and they hold allegorical and entertainment value for me and never constituted a "religion". Sorry for the rambling context but my question is this. How do heathens feel about people who are fans of the stories but don't practice the religion? Is it viewed in an offensive or appropriative light. Like do heathens look at the way most of us view these myths, especially those of us who are often very enthusiastic about it and say "Hey, these aren't your bedtime stories. This stuff is sacred!" or is it more like "Even though you don't believe and and pray to Odin, I think it's awesome that you are so interested in these stories that we also cherish". And along the same lines, would it be offensive to heathens if someone like me got tattoos for example which depicted Norse Mythological themes in spite of not holding religious beliefs about them? I also watched your video on Frith and Grith and hope we can have Grith to speak honestly on this topic here in the comments section, with mutual respect.

[@OceanKeltoi]

I dont think there’s any issue with loving the stories and not being a polytheist. Continue loving the stories. They were formative for you. It sounds like they had great effect on you. I wouldnt see an issue with tattoos either. Similar sort of deal. But a Heathen might mistake you as a Heathen and you might have to be like, nah I just love mythology. To which any reasonable heathen is going to be like “oh thats cool” Shouldnt be a problem tbh.

[@raymondwhatley9954]

@@OceanKeltoi Thanks for the swift reply. Yes, they have had a profound effect on me without the actual god belief. They were also something special that I shared with my Oma (grandma). When I would visit I would tell her stories. This become a long standing tradition for us. I told her the story about Tyr and Fenrir the day she died. It's one of the last things I ever said to her. Her name was Rose and so everyone in my immediate family has a rose tattooed somewhere on their body. I wanted to have a mythological aspect to mine so I decided to have Hugin and Munin holding the rose. That way there's the mythology aspect of it and also their names, as you well know, translate as "thought" and "memory" so it also represents that she's in my thoughts and memories. I've been thinking about expanding into a whole Norse sleeve, hence my question.

[@XCasper1999X]

What are your opinions on Chaos Magick?

[@OceanKeltoi]

I have a couple friends that are Chaote, and I kinda love the experimental game of their spirituality. It's now how I choose to approach it, but I have a lot of respect for it when it's not done to be edgy. (which, lets be honest, some people are into Chaos Magick to be edgy).

[@gregcampwriter]

I find polytheism interesting and actually attractive, but I have the same problem with belief here that I have with the monotheisms: evidence. I say this while recognizing that many ancient and modern polytheists treat their religion mythologically--it's storytelling that offers guidance and a way of processing reality, perhaps better stated as a virtual reality--but the realist in me gets stuck on being unable to demonstrate that the gods exist in the physical world.

[@OceanKeltoi]

If we posit the gods as non-physical agents, it's hard to say that we should be able to produce evidence they exist in the non-physical world. That comes across as a category error. The same sentence could be said of numbers. It's like saying "I don't believe in the number two because I cannot demonstrate that the number two exists in the physical world." Now, two isn't an agent, but the same issue applies with respect to the non-physical aspect.

[@JohnDoe-mk5zb]

@@OceanKeltoi Interesting. The thing about two is it's a word that represents our recognition that there is more than a singular thing. In other words, we cannot see or hold "a 2" but we can see or hold 2 of a thing. It is abstract, but an observable abstract. In what way is your conception of gods observable, or does it have a different sort of evidence?

[@gregcampwriter]

@@OceanKeltoi But that only reiterates the problem. I can posit a system of mathematics, but it's all imaginary until I can show that it applies to the real world.

[@xiuhcoatl4830]

@@gregcampwriter does it? mathematics is at the end of the day a solipsistic system we use so natural reality can make sense... to us, it's not an ultimate objective measurer. We return to the same issue, should we believe in numbers despite numbers don't exist in the real world and are constructs entirely made up by humans?

[@queenrayne1338]

So in the context of worship, what is the difference between reverence and respect?

[@OceanKeltoi]

Reverence is a perspective, respect is about interaction. That's how I'm using it anyway.

[@madmonkee6757]

Someone who is an atheist is not a pagan.

[@tyfugier5703]

thank you for saying Atheopaganism. looked it up and that's what i am

[@AnarchicEowyn]

Hey, so honest and respectful question from a Christian (who is also a heretic): how do pagans generally deal with drift? Like I know an example would be how Hermes and Pan are likely to have been seen as the same god at one point. It’s something that’s been bothering me for a while as I’ve been deconstructing and reconstructing my own faith and spirituality. Again, I mean this all in good faith and respect

[@WildMen4444]

I see it like this: Pan and Hermes may have at one point been worshipped as the same deity but Their later engagements with humanity demonstrate that They at the very least ought to be treated as separate even if They aren't separate. There are certain aspects that both Gods possess thaf clearly have gone and developed on Their own that don't belong to the other. For instance, Pan is not really associated with magic whereas Hermes is. My guess is that one of three things happened (in no particular order): 1. They've always been separate and humanity just started recognizing that 2. They were once the same but then literally split into two different entities 3. They are two different forms of a singular deity that are distinct enough to require unique forms of engagement. To the last one's point, it's not unusual for Gods to have different forms that need to be engaged with in certain ways that differ from others. There are even historical incidences of ventures failing with the reason given by religious specialists that the wrong form of a certain deity was beseeched instead of a more appropriate form. So this isn't as bizarre of a conclusion than one might assume. My general rule of thumb is this: treat every deity on a case by case basis. Even if it were to be found out that a deity is a form of another deity, there's probably a pretty good reason that deity is manifesting differently and you should probably just roll with it

[@AnarchicEowyn]

@@WildMen4444 Thank you! I've actually become a pagan since I made this original comment lol. This was really helpful. Thank you!

[@Skrufflez]

What are the values and morals that the pagan lives by? Where do you learn them from?

[@tainted_timmy6726]

In reference to worshipping the gods, would it be it or of honoring the Gods

[@Ratchet4647]

How do you decide what gods to revere? Is it ethnic, or is it whichever interests you the most? If ethnic, id be in a bit of a loss considering the complex ethnographic history of my ancestral homeland. There's Greeks and Romans and Celts and Germans, not to mention others.

[@OceanKeltoi]

Ethnicity can be a point of inspiration, but I wouldn't say that anyone is restricted to their ethnicity, nor are you required to exhaustively follow every deity connected to your heritage.

[@brandon_crow1291]

Not sure if you've already tackled this but how would one talk to the gods? Like if someone wanted to talk to Odin how would that be done?

[@barrydheil]

My question to you... what is your opinion on the disagreements between heathens, asatrú and wiccans? I have seen in the past heathens and asatrú gatekeep Thor, Freyja, Loki, Hel and others because *insert no true scotsman fallacy here*.

[@OceanKeltoi]

As an Orthopraxic and a Reconstructionist, I'm probably guilty of some of that. But at the end of the day, I'm not super concerned with someone's personal interpretation of their relationship with deity. But what I wouldn't appreciate from a Wiccan would be that I have to legitimize or accept their practice as correct or something. I can consider them justified in their approach without agreeing with them. Or letting them tell me how to believe within a group. That's where I'd draw a line.

[@barrydheil]

@@OceanKeltoi Fair enough, a kind of "You respect how I believe, I will respect how you believe" tradeoff.

[@unitymomentum]

What do your think of modern pagans, those that use herds and crystals for spells?

[@Kafillen]

Hi Keltoi! Im fascinated and curious and really hope that i don't offend with this question. You really have good arguments and you have thought your position though. I respect that. The question: From what I think I understand, your perspective on polytheism is of the strict verity, the gods of the different pantheons being completely seperate. So would that mean that you believe the greek gods exist, but you choose not to devote to them(gift cycle and ect)? Also, could you find yourself in a position where you could give respects to Zeus? I think what I'm wondering about is your thoughts on multi pantheon devotion. With respects, Dabaggins

[@ElenaAideen]

Drawing from multiple traditions is usually referred to as syncotheism. Meaning the practice of maintaining reciprocal interactions with deities of multiple pantheons. From statements Ocean has made in other videos he does indeed practice syncotheism, as his personal practice seems to include Gaelic, Germanic, and Scandanavian deities. Within the modern pagan community, syncotheism is fairly common. In fact historic evidence suggests that it was also considered very normal in the pre-Christian world, especially for travellers. Folks typically dealt with whatever deity was venerated locally when they were abroad, and might continue to interact with foreign deities after returning home if they felt comraderie with such.

[@dummyaccount.k]

when will yoou craaft a pagan response to pantheism?

[@joejolley7696]

What's a personal interaction with a god called? I remember there being a word for that he used

[@xiuhcoatl4830]

an epiphany, and yeah, sometimes those can happen

[@goingmonotheist783]

Love how you say "legend", yeah.. That sounds much more factual than myth.

[@goingmonotheist783]

@Xiuh Somehow your comment just sounds like a b*tchy "yes, there's no difference". 😘

[@xiuhcoatl4830]

@@goingmonotheist783 because there isn't... I mean, "factual" implies backed up and demonstrated by the scientific method, and monoptheism fails apart when science analyses it... so....

[@Nervardia]

What's the difference between heathens and pagans? The word "heathen" has been co-opted by the atheist community but IIRC, it has its roots in a religion? Or am I totally incorrect? I'm too lazy to research it, I've got thousands of other things I need to do. ❤️❤️❤️

[@asharceneaux247]

I think we need more on neoplatonism.

[@daltonmortimer7735]

Thoughts on Occultism/magick? ( asking as an occultist, just curious)

[@OceanKeltoi]

Its not my path, but I dont have much issue with it.

[@daltonmortimer7735]

@@OceanKeltoi ah fair enough just wondered since there's quite a lot of overlap there between Pagan/polytheist and occultist/Magickian but it's not NECESSARILY intertwined. Keep up the good work I'm enjoying your content immensely

[@Nerobyrne]

several gods with conflicting desires explain the world a lot better. Of course, there is still no way of actually testing these gods, so I guess it comes out about the same place as atheism when you're talking about empirical science. But at least you don't have constant contradictions between observed reality and your religious belief, which is nice. Which kinda makes me wonder how monotheism managed to take over so many areas.

[@nev399]

this makes sense I wish there was a church or some thing

[@sasilik]

If there are gods and they are omnipotent and they have conflicts then how do they resolve conflicts. If one is omnipotent and another is omnipotent then both should get their way. If one does not get what he desires then he is not omnipotent. I just don't understand how two omnipotent gods can have a conflict and how it can be resolved.

[@OceanKeltoi]

I've had people swear to me that neoplatonists have worked this out. I'm just not sure how they've done it.

[@NorthernNorthdude91749]

Our gods are not omnipotent. A god does not need to be omnipotent.

[@thedonsj2172]

Want to look into this so my question is where to start..

[@thecelticcrone7927]

TheDon SJ A book store or library.

[@thedonsj2172]

@@thecelticcrone7927 funny 😂 titles

[@thecelticcrone7927]

TheDon SJ Smartass😘😂😂😂

[@thenecroticfiend1692]

hello, i am quite young to heathenism and I would to know what resources you’ve used to learn about heathenism. I looked around at your channel and couldn’t find much on that. (Sorry if this question is not within this context but I’m genuinely curious.) thank you x

[@OceanKeltoi]

A good place to start is Viking Spirit by Daniel McCoy. His website is here: norse-mythology.org/

[@taproot0619]

What is your view of anti-theism and some of the anti-theists you've come across? I know Aran Ra is a big one, Poalogia calls himself and anti-theist, and even Suris mentioned he is an anti-theist in a recent video. Do you view this as an attack of some sort? How do you feel about their approaches and opinions on the matter? I know you're friends with Suris, and you've collabed with Paul, so I'm curious.

[@ratamacue0320]

.

[@taproot0619]

@@paradisecityX0 in his newest video where he talks about Steve king and abortion, at 12:27 he says he is anti-theist. I went back and watched the video again to make sure I didn't mishear it, but he said "this is an interesting situation where my politics and anti-theism come together". And he gave no retraction saying it was a slip of the tongue or anything. If he said it by accident, he hasn't admitted it. Since he tends to be very good at wording himself carefully though, I doubt it was a mistake.

[@taproot0619]

@@paradisecityX0 well that's why I asked Ocean to begin with. Because I didn't think he was an anti-theist either, and I am willing to bet Ocean knows his views on this better than either of us. So I am really interested in his answer (if he decides to answer).

[@yourfellowweebalex8102]

@@paradisecityX0 But being an anti-theist and being a live and let live person aren't in conflict with each other. Generally, it seems, anti-theists believe that religion is harmful, and from there you have a range of positions, from believing that theistic belief of any sort is harmful to believing that some aspects of some religions are harmful. And the differences don't end there. Believing that something is harmful doesn't mean you have to believe that the thing causing harm ought to be eradicated. You have a range of positions there as well - from believing that religion is so bad that it is ought to be eradicated (with violence, if needed, though I didn't personally hear this being argued for, but some people like that may be out there) to believing that religion is harmful, but it is not so much of a threat that we would want to strive to eradicate it, or even (and one person argued this to me), that religion is harmful, but we actually need it to keep society going, or something to that effect.

[@yourfellowweebalex8102]

@@paradisecityX0 That is completely irrelevant to my comment though.

[@d.o.m.494]

Christianity is polytheism, Jehovah, Jesus, Mary, Satan, many levels of angels and demons and tens of thousands of saints, all of whom can be prayed to.

[@Nerobyrne]

kidna depends on the sect, but this is certainly true for Catholicism. Although they'd tell you that there is only one God, he's at the very top, and then there are two levels below that of beings you can pray to, but not worship. So, it's kinda polytheism, but not really. There is only one god after all.

[@d.o.m.494]

@@Nerobyrne according to the first commandment Jehovah doesn't want you worshipping other gods.

[@Nerobyrne]

@@d.o.m.494 yes, that's why I specifically said "pray to but not worship".

[@d.o.m.494]

@Christopher M Hansen Why don't you try a thought experiment, look at Christianity from the outside for once.

[@d.o.m.494]

@Christopher M Hansen How do you explain all the different religions in the world, to every believer theirs is as true as yours?

[@bengreen171]

I can imagine Franklin D Roosevelt being a Reconstructionist Heathen.

[@Lonewolf-hu2vn]

what are your thoughts on autotheism or is it something your unfamiliar with

[@OceanKeltoi]

I actually don't know what it is. Can you explain it?

[@Lonewolf-hu2vn]

@@OceanKeltoi autotheism is the belief that you are your own god

[@Lonewolf-hu2vn]

@@OceanKeltoi It's most common among non-theistic satanist saying that since there are no observed gods the only one with power over you life is yourself making you in a sense a god over your life, but I've also seen otherkin use it to describe godkin

[@OceanKeltoi]

Godkin. Oooh boy. Autotheism as you described it seems to be just a perspective that redefines deity, and not really much more than that.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

Kinda makes me think of most noisy fundamentalists who absolutely know they are absolutely right about absolutely everything, and their God is always in perfect agreement with them. With studies showing the part of the brain activated by "God this thus and so" is the same as that activated by "I this thus and so", or beliefs one's Higher Power is one's Higher Self. Of course their biases and prejudices are in line with God's Will, they're "God" . The Satanist version actually makes sense to me.

[@jonsnor4313]

I probably would believe more if christianity didnt poison religion that much. I am kindsa atheist but i thing polytheisthic gods, especially norse one have certain charm. I mean you have loki a god for challenges that help you grow. And its appears to be a choice what you do if you do believe do not, which god you prefer. I really like polytheistic religions.

[@witchypoo7353]

@HistoryNET while I don’t think that even most Christians are rude or mean. No religion even my own can say that they are without those type. Because those kind are typically the most outspoken (I know from experience & that’s why I’ve only come out of the broom closet to my parents my sister and one friend or I would be disowned by my family) they tend to have a very big impact on how others view christianity.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

@@paradisecityX0 Maybe if loving Christians made as much noise as hating ones, ran for office more and did not automatically vote for hatemongers just because they claim to be "Christian", realizing the haters would burn the lovers along with atheists, pagans, Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc., Christianity would have a better reception.

[@warrendriscoll350]

Worship is a weird word. What the heck even is a worship? The answer? A flying dutchman.

[@bezoticallyyours83]

Huh?

[@warrendriscoll350]

@@bezoticallyyours83 It's a bad joke.

[@bezoticallyyours83]

@@warrendriscoll350 Oh.

[@Avigorus]

Here's something I'm kinda curious about: do you recommend any specific pagan/heathen/polytheist social groups/forums? Bonus lightning round: Is there a dating site? lol jk

[@lissam8988]

I used to be a Christian I still believe in one God. Just not a human one. My problem.... Why must we have a ritual or give some type of gift to any God? No matter what background culturally or religiously why must we give anything? What is the purpose if they are spiritual they cannot hold or eat food they cannot use money in other words, material possessions really shouldn't matter to a spiritual being. I do pray however is more like just talking. I used to do all kinds of little rituals or special things to show. But now as I've gotten older left Christianity I'm trying to really understand what the purpose of rituals are for of any religion? Why can't we just talk to God whoever that God is why does it have to be a special prayer why does it have to be in a special place why do you have to cover your head if it's your type of religion why all this ritual crap? Sorry no offense for those who do things like this. Why not just be truthful why not just talk to the God that you believe in why must there be all these little weird things that are just materialism basically? Thank you for your time and understanding sorry for ranting It's just doesn't make sense to me. Also I don't know which religion I am anymore because I do believe there is one God but I'm not sure if he splits himself or if he has messengers or angels whatever you want to call them. I don't know.

[@ElenaAideen]

What you are describing is what is usually considered agnosticism, or a belief in deity not associated with any particular religious structure. Whether you perceive deity to interact with you personally, or through divine messengers (angels), or even as multiple alternate personas is entirely a reflection of your personal gnosis; and all of these options in this context are equally valid. As for the purposes for personal ritual and votive practices. These are tools known to aid in creating a state of mind conductive to fostering mystical experiences. Some people feel more or less of a need to have these sorts of experiences in order to feel content and involved with their spirituality. If you have less need, then you will feel less inclined to engage in ritual. So long as you are content with your spiritual well being there shouldn't be any cause for concern. I hope this is helpful, Be blessed

[@robertgarrett2594]

Levels of personal comfortablity and/ or action(s) in which they find allows them the connection with whichever god(s) they address during these times are practiced on an individual basis more or less. Some may find a way it is practiced from another more suitable and incorporate something from example. But all to adjust their personal comfortablity within which they find more spiritual connectivity towards the deity of their choosing.

[@joejoelesh1197]

@1:30 oh really? "Fluffy bunny" is a term of respect now? And the AFA is super respectful right.

[@Wolfparadox]

I love Pagan sh*t.......

[@doriangray6146]

Please consider discussing the problem of evil and paganism

[@OceanKeltoi]

It wouldn't apply.

[@TonyJack74]

Actually even in ancient Egypt believed in a mythical "First Time" where the Gods ruled the earth directly and so called natural law is a fickle thing to discuss.Lastly quoting a couple philosophies at a glance like your doing is going to work against you due to the fact that no philosophy is true in the sense of actually real and many Greek philosophies are not really polytheistic but quasi monotheistic or monist which like I said isn't polytheism

[@mrmoth26]

All Greek philosophies were polytheistic or atheistic, the monotheistic interpretations of them are wrong and based on mistranslations

[@TonyJack74]

@@mrmoth26 the atheistic interpretations are wrong too because not even Diogenes was a literal atheist

[@maggiethedruid9010]

What is your relationship to the gods like? With Christianity you aren't supposed to criticize your god and he seems rather vengeful like a narcissistic father. Even questioning your belief in him is seen as sinning. You're basically at gods mercy and have to dedicate every aspect of your life so him. With celtic paganism, from those I've spoken to, some people say it is like a mutually beneficial friendship and others say it is a complete lifetime servitude to your gods(which sounds more similar to how many Christians are with their God). I'd love to know how heathens view it!

[@TonyJack74]

Please stop using the word deity incorrectly like a Christian does the word God.This is a huge misuse of terminology and neoplatonism is more monism which clashes with the actual definition of polytheism

[@mrmoth26]

Neoplatonism is polytheistic, monism is compatible with polytheism

[@TonyJack74]

@@mrmoth26 the two are not even the same so no

[@TonyJack74]

@@mrmoth26 monism isn't even theism it's just oneness while polytheism is self explanatory...

[@doriangray6146]

It seems as though paganism plays hide the ball like Christianity.

[@lukostello]

Its so weird the way you use language and the general flow of your voice/thought makes you sound like a rational person but then talk about how you believe blantantly superstitious things. Makes me think you are using some very obtuse definition of believe to squeeze that in there. Though what method could you possibly have arrived at your position?