The Great Alnico Ferrite Debate!

This is the first of a 4 plus part series videos on this subject!!!!
We are REALLY going to town discovering every overt and covert aspect of the subject - what is the difference between the two loudspeaker driver motors, when you want one more than the other.
Cheers! ; Janos
Magnets:
idealmagnetsol...
www.arnoldmagn...
Thread on alnicos not needing recharging:
www.audioherita...
Alnico vs ferrite sounds no different:
audiokarma.org...

[@fullranger3435]

It's theoretically wrong to say that the alnico magnet is not affected by the inverse magnetic field that the voice coil creates. In fact, as the weakest magnet of all, it is even more (quantitatively) affected than ferro and neo-magnets, the transient "softening" effect on the magnetic field being perceived as "more smooth, more musical sound" compared to "stiffer magnetic fields" provided by ferro- and neodymium magnets. This quantitative disadvantage, theoretically, suggests rather a lesser expected performance at low level detail signals with (easy-on the-ear) "rounding up" of transients. I'm referring to the Barkhausen noise effect which, though and perhaps, from a QUALITATIVE perspective, may impart some beneficial overall performance to the alnico magnets. We should also not forget that alnicos are far more tolerant to high temeratures (especially compared to neodymiums which have poor thermal stability), although thermal "attacks" from the voice coil to the adjacent pole piece and end-plate (saturated iron or MU metal) are rather poorly transfered to the true magnet body, even during extreme, extended dynamics, especially in high internal volume (well aerated) cabinets. Unfortunately, I have no experience with alnicos. I only know that older, Lowther aficionados, tended to have a preference for the PM A2 (alnico) model. But the company believe that the DX4 and EX4 (neodymium) models are, sonicaly, superior, especially on the lower details level.

[@realworldaudio]

👍✨ There's an interesting bit about the Alnico that it has an instable magnetic field after it's made, that is sensitive to external fields... during magnet break-in period this field will loose 1-2% of the field strength, but then it stabilizes, and remains there even through extended use. There might be a soft smearing effect due to the coercivity, and in theory it's smearing details. In practice it might be doing something good, as I suspect it's doing a clean-up job after issues artifcats that the amplification process introduces. When comparing Alnico drivers vs ferrite, my initial perception is that ferrite has advantage in definition, but after extended listening I always find that it's not an advantage but a lot of added harshness and grain, and takes away sonic balance towards show and weakened tone. I suspect though based on experience (and manget data as well) that Alnico starts to exhibit the sonic drawbacks (softening and smearing, and coercivity issues) when we push it super hard. On the other hand, ferrites and Neos get angry and harsh sounding when pushed hard.... so pushing too hard is not good for any solution. I think the choice boils down to what sound one wants? The driver to keep its cool and composure under duress, at the cost of a little addded softness - or to become more angry and violent... For rock and show the becoming edgier as it gets pushed hard is a total win-win scenario... For meditative listening it's the exact opposite I want..

[@heshoh2]

I believe this video of Alnico vs Ferrite magnets could be more easily understood if there were pre-drawn pictures of the two or three type of magnets discussed. Just trying to help.

[@realworldaudio]

Thank you Howard! I already made a series on that... going through in detail on the structure of Alnico, Ferrite and Neodymium drivers with cross sections of the drivers, and tearing the magnetic circuits apart. This is just the pep-talk on AN / Fe : )

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

A very usefull test/experience is to listen and turn back the soundlevel to the point where music fades away........in terms of a complete connected experience.......... Rough test for speakers and also amplifiers.............on the good ones you still experience to hear the same orchestra ............the same BIG orchestra but you hear it ever further away from you .............on many audio systems the sound/music colapses until you get the impression to only listen to music becomming reproduced by an ever diminishing litlle radio.

[@realworldaudio]

The super low level listening is a wonderful way to sort out systems with long term pleasure and satisfaction from the ones that give a fleeting show... if it can whisper, it can also sing... :)

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

@@realworldaudio hahaha, ..........Right so Janos and it also applies to some of our fellow humans 🙃😉

[@CoolCourt777]

It would be nice if Cube Audio made an alnico version of their drivers.

[@brucermarino]

Thank you for another fascinating presentation. Are there not, however, there too many variables to compare just the magnetic materials? For instance, it would be interesting to see how a driver with an electromagnet might compare. These are rare, but have and do exist. This way one might be able to remove variable in the magnetic structure. Although, this would be very difficult to do without a large investment in time and technology. Thanks again!

[@realworldaudio]

Yes, too many parameters, yet I found commonalities within reason... will continue to expand for three more videos on the matter, including mentioning electromagnets. (This mini-series is on AN/Fe, so not going into EM deeply this time..)

[@brucermarino]

@@realworldaudio Excellent, thanks you!

[@smos63]

Hi, it would be great if you could make a video explaining field coil drivers

[@realworldaudio]

Thank you, I will !; )

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

@@realworldaudio Very inertesting subject , a niche in audio/loudspeakers and with great history.....................this is a very complex issue........because of the need of a quality high current source , silence , perfect DC and batteries or supply.......... The parameters of the Loudseaker can be modified by changing the voltage on the coil..................!!!!!!!!!!! interesting to have a look on older radios with field coil speakers........were the coil is pârt of the load.........and or the psu ............ Fertin ...........Supravox............and others......... There's an important economic aspect to field coil followed by alnico........the budget is quite different ..........it's an INVESTMENT that drives you to bring all other ancillary equipement up to the same quality satndard than these speakers .......but the proof of the pudding will always be in the eating ....and to find the right SYNERGY ! Something like upgrading from the finest silicium transformers to nano cristaline ......there will always be the ..............Coherence , Harmony and Synergy is the secret of the cook...........

[@dilbyjones]

Nice, speakers! Another great vid.

[@fairenoughthenwhat]

I very much enjoy alnico speakers, both in my stereo and guitar amps. Part of it could be conditioning over decades, but I do really like them. I also enjoy many speakers that are not alnico.

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

Correct and rightfull comment Pete.........

[@realworldaudio]

Me too! :) Both AN and Fe, and a hybrid Fe/Neo .... ;)

[@wsissons1]

One thing JBL did that I found strange was in there L100 speaker system they used a alnico mid-range and in the L65 system they used a ferrite magnet same midrange driver's except for the magnet. What made the L65 so desired was its tweeters which still demands a hefty price today and was used in the higher end L300 .Maybe JBL thought there was less benefit using alnico in the midrange .

[@realworldaudio]

Synergy between drivers, crossover, and the concept of the loudspeaker is the most important part, and can lead to unusual combinations - plus, they had to think about what amps they will be matched with, and the applications. The bottom line is to always think outside the box.... there are possibilities, potentials, yet "no theory / preconception survives contact with reality". Some of the best speakers are born from truly unusual solutions...

[@csabaszeverenyi4318]

Szia János ! Egyébként az általad említett régi AlNiCos mágnes/vas topológia azért is fantasztikus mert kiküszöböli a vasat a tekercsből! Arról beszélek ahol a pólustörzs maga a permanens mágnes .....körülötte meg mozog a tekercs. 🙂 Azaz rajöttek a gyártók is(Főleg Skandinávok.) , hogy egy bizonyos torzítàsnak maga a vas az okozója, de vas nélkül meg elég nehéz a mágneses erővonalakat fókuszálni . 😀 Hiszterézis/vas veszteségnek nevezik. Rövidrezáró gyűrűkkel se lehet kiírtani csak ha az impedanciát alacsonyan és fixen tartjuk .A gyűrűk is csak 1Khz-től hatásosak egyébként. Ezért helyettesítik a magasabb permeabilitasú vasat telített permanens mágnes törzzsel. Ami kb. annyit tesz mintha folyamatosan légmagos lenne a lengő bármilyen pozicióban is van . Így eltűnik a vas hatása a fluxus stabil marad , az impedanciamenetből is elmúlik a sajátrezonancia utani emelkedő tendencia. Javul a hang. Egyébként ezt én is ki fogom próbálni a 15"-os szélessávúmon azon amit elküldtem Neked levélben,de itt, ebben a variációban/kísérletben gyűrűmágnesben lesz egy másik mágnes mint a pólus . Szóval mágnes a mágnesben. 🙂😉 Nagyon izgalmas téma ! Köszi a videót, várom a folytatást! 😉

[@realworldaudio]

Nagyszerű! Csaba, sokkal alaposabban utána néztél a dolgoknak mint a gyártók szoktak. Én is sokszor gondoltam arra hogy miért hanyagolják a mágneses erővonalakat - mágnes csak kivűl vagy belül, de nem mind a kettő helyen. (Ahelyett hogy mindkettő generátor, az egyik mindig érzékeny és passziv). Válaszolok hamarosan a leveledre, megjött! Nagyon jókat találtál ki, szuper!!

[@alcamacho1844]

Excellent info. Janos, any experience with Electrovoice? I heard some speakers in the past, they sounded amazing.

[@realworldaudio]

Hi Al, no experience with EV. Eduard Brokeman has though, he is using EV CD for his VOL-build, and reports highly on it. ; )

[@loureda5443]

I hate to tell you this Janos but Wison Audio uses alinco in their midrange driver, they call it Wilson Quad Mag tm.Obviously trying to warm that cooler sound up somewhat ha ha. I prefer alnico to ferite myself just more detail and naturalness, In the end the electromagnet is my ultimate choice as it has even more fine resolution and naturalness than alnico or ferite with the added bonuses of adjustability and never demagnetizing and being even more dynamic in range.I should mention also that the electromagnet's performance is highly dependant on a large high quality power supply as well to ensure quality results.Regards Lou

[@rickg8015]

Tungar Supplies for FC Magnets bring forth an ineffable beauty that other supply types could only hint on, based on the majority of anecdotal evidence..

[@realworldaudio]

Thank you Lou! Indeed, they started using Alnico.... they have not for a long time though (I think, but I'm not that knowledgeable about WA history, just going by what rumors I heard...). EM is coming up in the follow up of this series. :) I'll be mentioning about their power supply requirements, with a hint at your solution ;).

[@loureda5443]

@@rickg8015 Hi Rick I thought of using the Tungar rectifiers a few years ago and I they may be the best way to go for my field coil drivers as far as tone goes. When factoring in the voltage drop,the intense light and cost I decided to keep the shotky rectifiers in place. I would need 8 tungar rectifiers as I have 4 field coil drivers .Practically speaking I would like to try static inductive diodes which would most closely resemble a high current tube rectifier but I have not been able to find them yet. Regards Lou

[@rickg8015]

A couple of empirical subjective observations from folks in audio I usually agree with say that well designed alnico drivers exhibit kind of a soft clipping sound, and that magnet material is akin to different core materials in output transformers.. FWIW, I use mud magnets (ferrite) for my HF (Altec 902), and alnico for th LF (Altec 414Z - king tone!).. Anyway, I personally would still prefer a well designed ferrite driver than a badly designed driver that so happened to have an alnico magnet..

[@realworldaudio]

A good driver is a good one, no matter the magnet inside... :)

[@islandlightphotodotcom7162]

You rock! Timely subject...... I've been getting into vintage gear lately and have been reading about the loss of magnetic strength in neodymium over time. Have any insight/experience on this? ...Bob

[@realworldaudio]

Not really... have not focused on Neo drivers at all, no experience on their durability...

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

In addition....................Alnico is at the core ( inside ) of the voice coil, the construction is completely different...............the magnetic field lines are different also...................but to hear differences one has to present the right information to the speakers, that permits the musical evaluation ............so amplifier and source etc have to be on the level , and the music itself ................there was a time when renowned and respected amplifier brands stated that any good measuring amplifier sounded the same................David H.versus Peter J W. INDEED years ago we were quite astonished / shocked to discover that those out of priced sons of Will were stuffed with such ordinary low cost speakers............. Audiophiles loved it , just like MC Donald , loving it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@realworldaudio]

Yes, that was what my mentor always told, as speakers and amps get better, they should sound more and more similar... My SE amp, my PP amp, and the Michael Yee solid state amp - they sound so close that on first listen even audiophiles have to exert themselves telling them apart. Long listening experience, when I relax and let my spirit travel with the music reveals the finer details and differences between them... We had a listen to the sons of W, with an audio designer friend of mine and about 20 people total. Most folks thought it was the best sound they ever heard, it gave me WTF moments (huge show, but completely broken tonality), and my friend literally broke down and came to tears - he had to run out the room and was cursing and shouting with disbelief how come companies can charge such outrage for such broken sound... Well, it's all for the show, and people seem to love it. Although people almost never experience whole sound, so no basis for comparison.

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

@@realworldaudio I had to leave a high end show in Paris with my brother and friends .............when we were told to hear the perfection with the latest US speaker of a very renowned brand................there was a silence like in a church , then the demo started and the sound had a very mylar type tonality .............my brother busted out in incontrolable laughter .........WE had to LEAVE ..........;the whole audience looked to us with hate in their eyes as we were .................HMMMM how to qualify the heathen ..........uncivilized , " unkultiviert "........... 🤣

[@anandshah71]

Is it important to consider these magnets when it’s not available for general public. Hope u can make some videos on speaker design and concepts or case studies If u have 2 decades what’s your personal choice of speakers than just encyclopaedia content

[@realworldaudio]

Hi Anand, I understand that not everything I mention will be available for everyone. However, life can get us to a position where you stumble upon one, and then you can grab the chance knowing what's in front of you. Unknowing, we will just walk by.... this is how I came by ALL my AlNiCo drivers - all by keeping eyes open, none of them sourced on market. Might take 10, 20 years until you get the chance (as it happened with my Altec drivers), but eventually it happened. If I was not ready and prepared for it, I would have missed them....

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

Very nicely said Janos.........beliefs, statements and opinions about XXX they never heard or experienced ! The magnetic motor structure of both magnets are very different ..........besides the cone material , even the paper is property of the manufacturer...............recone those older speakers and you hear the difference of the cone even if both old and new are paper cones........ Lush dried paper /cellulose fibers on a matrix sound totaly different than compressed paper, the latter is far more economic and faster to produce..............the lighter, non compressed ( almost transparant ) older paper cones have a grip on the air molecules ...........the newer bounce the air molecules. so it's not only a question of different magnets ........! Besides that the older Alnico drivers had mostly high impedance & very thin wires on the voice coil , thinner wires means >>>>>more windings per Inch/cm .............and lighter voice coils !!!!!! That result in less inertia,less stored energy, faster transient response, higher sensitivity but LESS POWER handling.............they loose there own sound when driven by very high damping amplifiers and FB..............these were fully dvelopped for tube technology !!!! Today they want to marry two different worlds..............which is for my part an aberration ............... These speaker alos HATE .................offset on the speaker output , something that doesn't exist with transformer coupling............ In fact comparing two different technologies ( alnico /ferrite etc ) is like comparing apples with pears........... some manufacturers still propose both technologies with the same speakers.............and some also offer the field coil option..........which is all together another story to tell......... Now I will continuing the video .......... Have a nice day and sunset.............here we are trying to " survive " the heat wave ............not a good time to run tube amplifier or class A ....................

[@realworldaudio]

Hello Frank, I hope the heat-wave will pass sooner than later! Indeed, the most for you now would be a flea-power 71A or 1626 amplifier with 0.75W or rather a type 31 with 0.35W... preferably in mono :) The later can be done in class A with under 10W heat production total... Indeed, I also think that the biggest problem with audio gear is that they are trying to make them compatible with everything on the market. The end result is utter mediocrity, speakers / amps "work" with everything, but they do well with nothing.

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

@@realworldaudio Fully agree with you Janos ! But it works for marketting ............for many ........... Yes ................Fleapower ............;;even the headphone amplifier from Yamamoto has a louspeaker output 8 ohm with +/- 200 mW.............hahaha, there we enjoy those high sensitivity speakers...

[@EddyTeetree]

Hey J 😊 one comment asks about vintage gear. With a lack of printed matter how does one tell what the material used for the motor is? I have a pair of 12” full range from mid 1950’s and a pair of 12” 3 ways from @ 1967 same company and I’d just assumed that the later were Ferrite but after looking last night there’s nothing to indicate this in the info available.

[@realworldaudio]

Hi Eddie, quite the opposite, you helped to look into it a little more, and dig into the common concerns and opinions that float around, and share what I think of the matter to make waters more clear. 👍👍

[@gerihifi]

you'd the right coffee cup for that topic.. darth vader :-)

[@realworldaudio]

Than Force is strong with you!!! :)

[@gerihifi]

@@realworldaudio .. definitely join the force!

[@anandshah71]

If u can make a video on aperiodic enclosure I couldn’t find much projects on the internet. I have low FS and low qts pa 15 -18” driver want a compact sub box that does not need to go abive 80-100hz

[@realworldaudio]

Hi Anand, Low Qts will not like a compact box... I'd recommend as big enclosure as you can for these drivers, and use a slot port with a small horn at the end for better acoustic impedance conversion.

[@asadabbasmirza9519]

Website????????