The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The Battle of the Philippine Sea - Part 1 June 19th

The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - The Battle of the Philippine Sea - Part 1 June 19th
With Seth Paridon
Part of our on-going Pacific series on WW2TV
• The Pacific
More WW2TV content about The Philippines
• Philippines Week
Also part of our 80th Anniversary Series
• 80th Anniversary Special
The Battle of the Philippine Sea, often referred to as "The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot" was fought on 19-20 June 1944 and effectively eliminated the Imperial Japanese Navy's ability to conduct large-scale carrier actions. It took place during the United States' amphibious invasion of the Mariana Islands. The battle was the last of five major "carrier-versus-carrier" engagements between American and Japanese naval forces, and pitted elements of the United States Navy's Fifth Fleet against ships and aircraft of the Imperial Japanese Navy's Mobile Fleet and nearby island garrisons. This was the largest carrier-to-carrier battle in history, involving 24 aircraft carriers, deploying roughly 1,350 carrier-based aircraft.
We covered the 4 raids of the 19th in this show. Part 2 is now scheduled kzbin.infofwsrUBY25gE
Seth Paridon is a World War II historian with over 20 years experience who's many roles also was serving as a chief historian for The National WWII Museum for 15 years
/ @unauthorizedhistorypa...
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[@dnp7162]

Great to see Seth on the show! Two of my favorite KZbin channels-WW2 TV and the Unauthorized History of the Pacific War. Woody, when you next do a show on submarines, you should have Seth’s co-host Bill Toti on. He’s a retired submarine captain and squadron commodore. He would be a great guest for that!

[@Bruhop60]

100%

[@TheBurr75]

Realised i knew very little about the pacific war until seth and captain toti got me hooked on they're show..

[@davidlavigne207]

So happy to have this great crossover guest aboard today. I do hope that we shall see a few more of these types of shows on occasion. Stupendous.

[@markzaugg4688]

Wow, I would pay an awful lot of money to get a ticket to that conversation that sucks the oxygen out of the room with that particular batch of gentlemen. Huge thanks to Seth and you, Woody. I would love to listen to you guys talk for hour after hour. Bring on part 2!

[@edwardloomis887]

Paul, you are a great interviewer. I've said it to others, and I mean it.

[@dennishughes4089]

Once again, Woody, you have brought us a VERY special guest. We always learn something from your guests, but Seth provided a much fuller context so not only did we learn something, but we also now understand things better. Great show!

[@cenccenc946]

Awsome, my two favorite WWII history channels, combined.

[@ramal5708]

As an avid UHPW Podcast I am glad to have Seth coming to the channel and talk about the largest Carrier battle in history

[@arts2412]

Thanks for having Seth on!

[@PhilGreeleyJR]

I had such a crappy day and what a gift to have Seth here I love him and Bill Thank you Paul I hope you can get them both on in the future.

[@Briandnlo4]

What Spruance understood that Mitscher (whom I don’t hold in as high-esteem as Mr. Paridon) didn’t was that 5th Fleet was both an irresistible force AND an immovable object. Spruance was content to let the enemy bash his own face into the brick wall of the American CAP as many times as they cared to. To be fussy, the IJN brought 3 fleet and 6 light carriers to the fight, the USN brought SEVEN fleet and eight light carriers, apart from the CVEs (combustible, vulnerable, expendable) that were watching over the landing beaches. And the entirety of the North Carolina, South Dakota, and Iowa classes of fast battleships, ten in all. As they said, a far cry from 1942, when Nimitz had all he could do to keep three operational fleet carriers in the entire Pacific. One fleet brought seven to one action in June, 1944, less than two weeks after kicking off Overlord in Europe.

[@bruceday6799]

2nd watch today. I'm a PTO student. Bagration is so far outside my knowledge base, either way WW2TV always expands my knowledge.

[@kentiffany8872]

Adm Lee I feel was the fellow who saw regardless of the sexiness of a big surface action knew there was no real need for it. Saving sailors and ships.

[@navyreviewer]

I agree Santa Cruz didnt get nearly the attention it deserves. Im glad thats changing BTW. I would argue that was the last time American control of the Pacific was seriously challenged.... to this day. I dont agree that it was the death of Japanese naval aviation there and then, and they spent the next 2 years rebuilding. In retrospect I suspect they wish it had gone down like that. Rather than a decapitation, as in Germany, it was a constant bleeding. After Santa Cruz many were taken off the carriers and transferred to Rabual where they fought until they died. Then about 150 newbies and their teachers died on Mustu In mid 1943. Then you had the Philippine Sea. There was never this "rebuilding" of pilots between Santa Cruz and Phil Sea, thats a myth. They were constantly and continuously sent out on these Quixote-esque missions that kept them exhausted. They just werent operating from their carriers.

[@1089maul]

Woody/Seth. Great presentation! Learnt a lot today especially from the Japanese side. I love Seth calm and knowledgeable style of presentation. I was going to say get him back but just remembered that I have part 2 to catch up on. Cheers gents, Bob

[@susanyu6507]

Wonderful, informative presentation. Looking forward to part 2 on July 3.

[@dave3156]

Wow this ranks up there with some of your best!!! Man I could listen to Seth talk about the Pacific War for hours. Great job to you both. I immediately subscribed to his channel and set the notice for Part 2. Superb work! Thanks Paul!!!

[@CFarnwide]

Nice to see you could get Seth away from his busy schedule and make an appearance!

[@Chiller11]

I think the extent of the industrial strength of the United States is under appreciated by many WW2 historians. Most likely the nature of academic specialization is one explanation; that and the easy geographical division into Pacific and European Theatres. I kind of chuckle that the early war efforts of Churchill and others to commit the US to a Europe first policy seemed important but Admiral King decides yes, but we’ll actually do both. The shear numbers of armoured vehicles, locomotives, trucks and jeeps for prosecuting the land war in Europe is exceeded by the numbers of battleships, carriers, submarines, cargo ships , tankers, landing craft destined for the naval war in the Pacific. Then one considers the vast number of aircraft fighting in both theatres. That industrial productivity didn’t happen spontaneously. The story of the foresight of a select number of individuals tasked by the Roosevelt administration to harness and coordinate this productivity is as important as any strategic or operational genius shown by military commanders in determining the final outcome of the war.

[@susanyu6507]

Agree with you Chiller. As a country we had, and have a lot of depth and resources. Mostly we try to use what we have for good.

[@blockmasterscott]

And that was done with pen and paper record keeping too. That impresses me more than anything. And just think, on top of Europe first, we still had a ship in the Pacific dedicated to making ice cream.

[@garywoods7236]

This was such a great episode. Gonna rewatch it while driving today and watch part 2 right after.

[@douglaskillock3537]

Fantastic. Great to have Seth here. I am a huge fan of the Unauthorised History. A tremendous source for those interested in the Pacific war. Plus of course our fantastic host. WWII KZbin royalty here

[@morganhale3434]

That was wonderful! WW2TV and TUHotPW are my two favorite WWII history channels and Paul you did not disappoint, the show was better than I thought it would be! Well done and one of your better efforts.

[@olentangy74]

I was stationed on Guam for 17 months , 1975-76. During my time there, I was able to spend 6 days on Saipan and see the locations of where the Japanese airfields were. I also visited Yap, and saw Zero fighters still on their landing gear ( they have since been taken by collectors and restored). All three of these islands were at the heart for the battle of the Philippine Sea. One of my most memorable moments, was when a service friend and I rented a Cessna 150 and flew around the island. At one point we were flying over the cliffs of Arote Point, where the Japanese airfield was. As I looked around us, my mind went back 32 years to when the Marianas Turkey shoot was taking place. To think that Hellcats and Zeros were battling in the same air space we were flying in, was an amazing experience.

[@craigplatel813]

I think the comparison of Mitcher with Halsey is a bit off. While they were both aggressive, Mitcher was a much better planner, and tactiacl operator. He selected a better staff. The staff work and flight operations were always much better under Mitcher than Halsey. I believe that Mitcher grew into being able to command a large organization like task force 58, while Halsey didnt. Perhaps his time as ComAirSols helped him develope.

[@matthewgreenfield360]

As many have already commented, my two favourite channels combined. Great show Seth & Paul!

[@Thumpalumpacus]

Seth's channel is a favorite of mine as well, seeing two fantastic commentators together is always a good show. ETA: Put Paul, Drach, Parshall and Tully, John McManus, Trent Hone, Craig Symonds, and Seth and Capt Toti onto the same livestream, kiss the world goodbye, the gravitational well of excellence will do us all in.

[@WW2TV]

Thanks very much

[@Thumpalumpacus]

@@WW2TV Thank YOU. You have this knack for asking great questions, and eliciting great answers, and you bring in guests who teach me so much in the listening.

[@WW2TV]

That's the plan

[@Thumpalumpacus]

@@WW2TV Working to great effect, will donate as money allows.

[@WW2TV]

Thank you

[@briancooper2112]

Great episode! Thanks guys!

[@v.mwilliams1101]

Nice to see Seth. Two excellent history channels, together! Thank you.

[@TonyLS9A]

Awesome show once again. Amazing details. USS Cavalla is a museum ship in Galveston, Texas. Now, on to part two.

[@TheBruceGday]

Seth knows his stuff for sure! Love his podcast! In 1943, the Gilberts operation, between Betio and Makin, the US had 6 fleet carriers, 4 new Essex class, plus Enterprise and Saratoga. 5 new Independence class light carriers, and 8 escort carriers. That’s a pretty fair fleet. Of course the Marianas operation saw a much larger American fleet.

[@KMN-bg3yu]

Outstanding episode. The GMTS is probably one of the most decisive and simultaneously one of the least known battles of the war

[@jammininthepast]

Thank you Seth, Paul, excellent presentation (again). I value your compelling and important work. Thanks again, you're appreciated.

[@therampanthamster]

only discovered Seth's podcast a few weeks and love it. Splendid to see you guys collaborating!

[@tomtruax6775]

Yet another great episode. Looking forward to the second part.

[@scottgrimwood8868]

Seth really knows how to tell the history with passion. I am so glad he came on WW2TV. I hope Woody can make a visit to Seth's channel in the future.

[@WW2TV]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to appear on their channel

[@scottgrimwood8868]

@WW2TV You have learned alot since starting this channel, I think you would do fine. 🙂

[@WW2TV]

I'm a generalist though

[@DanColley-qy3wi]

I think that you could more than hold your own, Woody. I n̈noticed during this program that you always knew to ask the right questions. That kind of savvy really keeps your type if program rolling. Dont, sell yourself short, brother. Many of your audience couldn't members couldn't carry your jockstrap.

[@WW2TV]

Well, I maybe know what questions to ask, but I don't have many answers to questions outside of Normandy

[@jimgrundy1278]

There are some people who really know their subject but who struggle to communicate what they know. While there are others who are great communicators but, once you dig down a little, you find the ease with which they speak is not backed up by a real in-depth appreciation of their topic. Then there's a third category who straddle the other two but to whom the humanity of those whose stories they tell is pretty inconsequential. They are the star of the show, not the men and women who made our history; they might as well have early medieval pottery types for their subject for all the connection they have. How lucky are we, therefore, to have on one show, two superb historians, capable of switching between the top-level strategic issues and the personalities of those who were right at the sharp end of things? A real treat. Thank you both.

[@golfballwhisperer4643]

What a great show Woody ! I've been following Seth and Bill for a while now, and its awesome to see him on your channel.

[@WargamingHistory]

Fantastic

[@craigplatel813]

I think some comments on the vast improvement of all aspects of US carrier operations should be included in the next session. Fighter direction, cic, radio discipline, flight deck operation, deck cycles etc... Thes6se were all si greatly improved over 42 that it equated to being a real force multiplier.

[@WW2TV]

Yes, although to be fair, that has come up before, especially the show with Stan Fisher and others with Trent Hone. But yes worth expanding on in part 2

[@mikelinderman8514]

Great episode

[@bobkrause6114]

Excellent production. Thank you for the insights into this legendary conflict!

[@kentiffany8872]

Great stuff. I am learning so much. Thank you.

[@petestorz172]

1943 was a rebuilding year for the IJN and USN, but their starting points were different. The USN had numerous carriers - CV and CVL - being built and a massive pilot and crew training program. The IJN had Taiho, a couple of light carriers, and maybe a couple of conversions being built, and their pilot training program was notoriously inadequate, and training for carrier operations was hampered by fuel shortage and the risk of USN submarines finding the carriers during training operations. Coming into Philippine Sea the IJN carrier force was outnumbered and was at a quality disadvantage; also, where USN submarines played a major part, IJN submarines were more or less missing.

[@Hal_Jr]

What a fantastic show, Woody. So glad you’ll be having Seth back for a look at Phil Sea Day 2. I have to respectfully disagree with him on Spruance’s decision to immediately chase after the IJN force… he knew his primary order (unlike Halsey @ Leyte) and was correct- I believe - to guard against being outflanked. And re: Cavalla, she’s in Galveston, TX. , and well worth a visit should you find yourself in that neighborhood.

[@denniscahill9683]

Wonderful...

[@WW2TV]

Many thanks

[@hexapuma12]

Love these two guys! Follow both your channels.

[@davidwatson8118]

Thanks for another excellent discussion 👍😎

[@paulreilly3904]

Wonderful to have such a great historian, and story teller on. I'm currently listening to Unauthorised etc and Seth and Captain Bill are so well informed. You have a great show. Many thanks from the UK.

[@tonetriv]

What a great show!!!

[@johnlucas8479]

Great presentation

[@peterbrown1208]

Wonderful show. Very informative presentation and example of American industrial power and military training.

[@WW2TV]

Thanks Peter, part 2 on July 3rd

[@jimwatts914]

Howdy folks! Great presentation on naval aviation when the USN dominated the battered Japanese fleet. Seth from Unauthorized History is a tremendous historian with the second greatest WW2 history channel on KZbin

[@73Trident]

Great to see this get together. I watch and listen to every word that you men say. I'm an amatuer historian and baffle the every day people with the knowledge I that I knew before and all I've learned from you guys. Thank you very much for your great channels.

[@billenright2788]

BADASS show!!!!!!

[@PalleRasmussen]

10:00 Military Visualised has a fine visualisation of the disparity of builds and forces from 1940- 45. In a video he just posts a graphic of each ship and the totals of each type as they sum up IIRC. I remember it as quite good. 12:35 Dr. Clarke argues that the Japanese were less posessed by Kensai Kessen than we often claim today.

[@brucealbert4686]

Early AM lab work accompaniment 😊

[@DaVinci0963]

Also, after the zero was examined, reassembled, and painted our colors we flight tested it . The physical weak points were identified first from the dissection and aerial tactics against the zero were refined from all the test flights. That helped until we got better planes to the Pacific theater.

[@WR25_JL22]

wow, didn't realise the extent of US Navy in the Pacific. excellent stream

[@jollyjohnthepirate3168]

Cavalla is at Sea Wolf park near Galveston, Texas. You can tour her if you're not claustrophobic. WW2 boats are small.

[@timothyhouse1622]

Hearing him talk about the AA being put up by American ships, especially battleships, is interesting. What gets lost in this though is the technological reason for such devastating firepower. We always hear about how superior German weapons were or how great the Zero was, but we don't hear that about the truly groundbreaking things the Allies created. The reason the AA was so dang good was because they were using Radar Proximity Fuses. Post war analysis indicated you had to fire less than HALF of the shell required to shoot down one aircraft as opposed to using no Radar Proximity Fuses. Everyone wants to say how accurate German Flak Units were, they couldn't hold anything against the US Navy in the same time period.

[@WW2TV]

There was this very discussion in the livechat during the show

[@vladimirpecherskiy1910]

Long time no see, Seth here! 😀

[@petestorz172]

In 1941 and 1942, USN thinking was not large-scale carrier forces, it was1- or 2-carrier forces. The IJN pioneered a large carrier force capable of overwhelming a land base at Pearl Harbor, and did it again at Midway. When the USN was rebuilding its fleet of carriers there was a paradigm shift from small raiding carrier groups to a large group of groups that could operate together or separately as appropriate to the scope of a task.

[@carveraugustus3840]

Lol yes. North Carolina, are you on fire? What? no, sir. I'm Firing.

[@GrahamCStrouse]

Seth!

[@petestorz172]

Re BB AA, depending on the ship and guns' firing arcs, each BB had 8-20 5"/38s firing up to 15-20 shells a minute. They would have been a scary sight, individually and collectively!

[@kemarisite]

31:08 "109 aircraft", compared to 108 launched for the initial strike on Midway on June 4, 1942.

[@olentangy74]

Guadalcanal was a meat grinder for the Japanese. Troops, cargo ships and warplanes, especially naval aviation assets.

[@jprehberger]

Seth looks exactly like what a naval historian should look like. 😄

[@Titus-as-the-Roman]

Woody & Seth, sorry I missed this,

[@exharkhun5605]

Fantastic show. One of the myths that I'd like to see pierced is the way people talk about kamikaze as being irrational, incomprehensibly wasteful or typically Japanese. What people should understand is that from this point of the war the US Navy's advantages of radar, radar gun-laying, proximity fuses and superior fighters and pilots meant the Japanese could send strong, well planned attacks of hundreds of average but trained pilots in the best airplanes that they had available. These attacks would lead losses upwards of 80% for NO DAMAGE done, at all. Japan felt it had to fight on. Conventional attacks were suicidal anyway. Kamikaze was the rational option. If that doesn't appall you than nothing will.

[@johndeboyace7943]

Adm Ugacki in his diary, I believe, said only 35 aircraft were operational at the end of the battle.

[@billyshakespeare17]

Hello Paul, I wish we could have asked Seth about the range of the P 47 in the ETO.. Great show!!!

[@WW2TV]

Why, is that an in-joke?

[@billyshakespeare17]

@@WW2TV Let's just say he has some rather strong opinions about the whole P47 range/drop tank topic. There would be some major buttons pushed I think.:) BTW, they have a brilliant show. But yours might be my favorite in the genre.

[@WW2TV]

They have a narrower remit on their channel, so can go for deeper dives in some areas. We of course cover a wider variety, but I agree they do sterling work getting great ww2 history out there

[@billyshakespeare17]

@@WW2TV Actually, I disagree. I agree UHOTPW can go deeply into subjects. But so does WW2TV.

[@WW2TV]

We go deep sometimes yes

[@billisaacs702]

Too bad Bill Toti wasn't there to talk about the submarines. Good show.

[@ph89787]

There's a certain irony with the Philippine Sea. In that, the IJN was fielding 4 Carriers: Shokaku, Zuikaku, Jun'yo and Zuiho, who had fought against other carriers before. The US Navy was only bringing in one, the ever-present and vengeful Enterprise. Yet because of the downgrade in pilot training and throwing away most of their surviving veterans in the Solomons during 1943. The IJN wasn't able to leverage the experience. Whereas the USN were able to rotate their veteran pilots back and after some time, transfer them back to the front. Were able to bring their all-powerful Essex-Class and Independence-Class Light Carriers up to speed.

[@davekelsey8762]

Who is better than the UHOTPW ? Who? 😄 Have a great 4th Seth.

[@jeffholloway3882]

Cavalla is in texas, Galveston i think. Drach did a video at the park, you could see texas's mast while she was in drydock at the time

[@WW2TV]

Thanks Jeff

[@jeffholloway3882]

@@WW2TV you are most welcome

[@jeffholloway3882]

I looked it up, Galveston naval museum, has Cavalla, in her guppy conversation, and uss steward, a ww2 DE.

[@Titus-as-the-Roman]

Vapor detonation "Air" Bomb is our largest Non-Nuclear Explosion.

[@gregcollins7602]

I stopped to watch Seth. Great to see Torpedo Tuesday on WW2TV.

[@timbrown1481]

The Japanese definitely woke the “sleeping giant”. Foreshadowed by Yamamoto.

[@brushhogg1]

Rumor has it he never said that...

[@robertgarbe6348]

The real point in this, which is missed a bit in reference to Spruance and the success of the operation, is that it is the AIRPLANES that are the issue and without the airplanes, the Japanese Mobile Fleet is powerless to do anything, and continues to be powerless for the rest of the war. Obsessing about the carriers is ridiculous, we killed all their planes, nothing else needs to be done, and we done it. T he last sortie that Michener sent was totally unnecessary and just ego.

[@robertlordon8511]

with one tenth of the GDP, the Japanese never had a chance.

[@suzannakoizumi8605]

Must you use bad language?

[@WW2TV]

We are a WW2 history channel and millions died in the conflict. If you are offended by me and my guests saying fuck and shit occasionally, then I suggest you get your priorities in order