The Greatest Videogame Genre You Didn't Know Existed

[@ArchitectofGames]

Woah! What's this!? Oooh it's a spooky mural with the words "pay me ten dollars and I'll say your stupid name" written on it oooh what could it mean??? Maybe if you backtrack to my patreon page some new secrets will emerge oOoOoooOOoOOOOoOoo: www.patreon.com/ArchitectofGames You know what on second thoughts maybe there's some information humanity was never meant to discover: twitter.com/Thefearalcarrot

[@Barmem]

I like to call those"Knowledge-based games"

[@AMan-xz7tx]

Dang, 10 bucks? welp, guess I gotta start playing free games for a bit like that new Voices of the Void game, then I can put 10 big ones down on the patreon (this is my roundabout way of asking you to check out Voices of the Void, even if not for a video then just to play on your own, it's a good game)

[@somefreshbread]

Discovery Games is a good name I think. I think there's also two subgenres of this that I don't have names for. One has "knowledge checkpoints", like Outer Wilds or Overboard, where as soon as you know something, you can sorta just skip ahead next time. The other subgenre is more like Lorelei, where you learn the puzzles basic concepts but then still have to go and do the work each time, especially when the solutions are randomized.

[@TheYahmez]

Too many spoilers 👎

[@JaredJeyaretnam]

Ever considered setting up a Bluesky account? It’s a lot less toxic than X, feels more like how Twitter felt pre-Elon :)

[@jessierine3981]

You and Mark from gmtk having the same brain is so funny to me. I dont think that this has been the first time that you've published something that's addressed or is peripheral to something gmtk put out. Great minds think alike, it seems! Great vid, and i love that you always seem to find new ways of looking at gaming as a whole (like making new genres haha)

[@pewpewdragon4483]

ngl, sometimes I get them mixed up. I know they are two different people, but for some reason they occupy the same "memory slot" in my brain. I guess its because they talk about the same kind of topics with similar sensibilities, so they are practically the same 😂

[@CarterJ9]

​@@pewpewdragon4483plus somewhat similar names and English accents. (Totally different accents, of course. but they still both occupy the "English Video Game Channel Host" category in my memory bank.)

[@spero360]

And asad anjum. A lot of parallet thi king going on here

[@michaeldunkerton3805]

​@@pewpewdragon4483because GMTK is on Nebula, I have to always double check to make sure whether the video in my KZbin feed is a GMTK I've already seen or a new Architect of Games ...

[@southpenguinjay110]

I was literally thinking, why is Mark sounding so weird today?

[@kaisokusekkendou1498]

3:25 You mention Game Maker's Toolkit "What Makes a Game Feel Mysterious" as a recent example, however I can think of two other videos I've watched in the past that mentions these kinds of games, or the style of gameplay. *Superdude* - _"Knowledge Based Games, and Why You Should Play Them" _ - He specifically calls this "Knowledge Based Unlocks", where you unlock aspects of the game (or discover that they even exist) based on YOU learning, as opposed to simply getting a "key" (double jump, glider, bombs, etc). *Cosmic Hour* - _"Games that are Locked Behind Knowledge"_ - He calls out a specific name for these types of games: "Knowledge-based Games", though he does say he prefers calling them "Epiphany-based Games" for what they actually feel like. :) Cosmic Hour's was released a few months back, and Superdude's video was way back in Feb 2023. They both have some pretty low subscriber counts though (they deserve more!), so it'd be easy to have missed them entirely.

[@BardianAngel]

Transparency Boo is another underrated channel that went into this in a video about Tunic.

[@madscientixx4417]

I was also going to comment about superdude's video, glad you already mentioned all these

[@timelordsalad]

Ironic enough is that I happened to watch both of those videos before this one, so I was all too familiar with all the games and their concepts going into this video. Those two channels and videos definitely deserve way more recognition, and I can’t recommend them enough to anyone who hasn’t seen them

[@BewbsOP]

20:08 So the problem with this monologue is that what you're describing is *why* people call them metroidbrainias. Vania's and Brainias both being about discovery is why they have similar names to begin with, but you're wrong about knowledge being the same as upgrades. The big difference is whether you could hand the game to a friend and it would be the same as if you were still playing. If I hand super metroid to a friend, they would be able to *space* jump just fine without me telling them about it, but if I hand the witness to a friend, they may as well have just started the game. One involves direct upgrades to your character while the other upgrades YOU. The distinction is warranted. I think the best description to distinguish the two is: Metroidvania is "lock and key". Metroidbrainia is "That was a door!?"

[@spfab3429]

Another key difference is also starting a new game. In a classic Metroidvania a new game is really just that: a complete restart, you literally turning back time and doing everything again. (To be fair, there is some difference. As a player you are generally more skilled now and will probably have an easier time with bosses, etc. Also most Metroidvanias allow you to get certain items out of order, so your second playthrough could look significantly different from your first. But the main point stands: you still need to reaquire the necessary items first.) However in a Metroidbrania you can't really do that. Even in a new game, you still have all the knowledge of your previous game. (Barring severe head-trauma in between your playthroughs.) You can just solve puzzles immediately or skip early game sections entirely, simply because you know how. So your second playthrough will be wastly different. However this also runs the risk that a second playthrough will be very uninteresting, because there is nothing to do. (Outer Wilds has this problem. Once you completed the game, there is no reason to restart it.) I think the best are when games do both. Allowing you to tackle the game in your own order on a second playthrough, but still requiring you to do and get things. (Tunic does this to a great effect. The game still requires you to collect certain items and upgrades, but the knowledge from your first playthrough can be extremely helpful here and allow you to skip ahead or use some cool shortcuts and tricks you learned earlier and get the items in pretty much any order you like now, leading to very fun and interesting new routes, that aren't really feasible on a first playthrough.)

[@Snozzer]

*I love double jumping in Super Metroid.*

[@BewbsOP]

@@Snozzer I meant space jump lol You knew what I meant

[@kaisokusekkendou1498]

Superdude has a video where he calls this "Knowledge Based Unlocks", specifically as a differentiation from the standard gameplay trope of "Here's a locked door, now here's the key for that door", which has been done ad nauseum.

[@rogercruz1547]

@@spfab3429 I agree and think that tunic hit the sweet spot. I was always a big fan of sci-fi series like Stargate SG-1 because of this. They got to a new planet, they investigated, fought the bad guys, solved puzzles, learned languages, collected tech and artifacts, sometimes collected team members, and it all just felt balanced.

[@TheMidnighttea]

I kept hoping you'd mention Myst. I think that game is historically pretty important to this genre because I think it was one of the first of its kind in creating this experience.

[@Merione]

Same. Myst was the first game that properly made me feel this sense of discovery and to this day is in my top 3 of my favorite games ever for this reason alone.

[@emilyrln]

Big same! I've never felt so lost as I have in Riven wondering 1) where I am and B) what tf I'm supposed to be doing 😂

[@richardclegg8027]

Yeah Myst and even more I think Riven really perfected this type of game (given the technology of the time at least). You spend a lot of time in Riven learning about the number system or how the world inter-relates. That knowledge is hard to acquire (and it is not obvious it is the goal) but once you acquire it the puzzle related is not so hard.

[@Azel954]

almost like all of the games referenced are based off myst and riven

[@TheMrEwe]

I want the genre to be called MYST Like, as a nod to Rogue Like as a genre.

[@joco137]

15:40 Ah yes outer worlds, the great indie spaceship game

[@SideQuestStories]

*grrrrrrrrrrrr*

[@rbdriftin]

That’s the joke

[@joco137]

@@rbdriftin is it? or an editor error

[@Kamikazi052]

​@@joco137Definitely the joke, he's made the same Outer Worlds, Outer Wilds 'mix up' before. It's absolutely deliberate.

[@Yora21]

You can clearly hear the name. "The Outer Woilds"

[@isaac9721]

6:51 I've always called them "secrets games" cause I feel that it accurately expresses the experience of playing these games, which is the feeling of uncovering a grand secret or conspiracy one clue at a time. It also calls back to where I feel a lot of these types of games start: taking the idea of an easter egg to the extreme.

[@hjewkes]

Morrowind quests gave you a vague description of the landmarks and expected you to remember it. It was brutal lol

[@pmnt_]

The best troll was placing the Dwemer ruins Nchurdamz and Nchardumz close to each other, with a vague description that causes to you stumble over the wrong one first.

[@Rudol_Zeppili]

@@pmnt_had to reread that thrice to catch the difference lol.

[@mechanicalmonk2020]

So does SW Outlaws 👀

[@Albinojackrussel]

I really liked the lack of map, but man I had a hard time with the quests. If I play it again, I'll probably add a quest manager mod

[@sanyanders]

And Morrowind's quest design falls apart with mostly unmemorable repetitive landscapes and annoying flying enemies everywhere

[@cooperton4949]

Your arguement againt "metroidbrania" kinda convinced me its a good name...

[@Ragnarok222R]

Yeah, same.

[@MrWhygodwhy]

Yeah I was thinking, isn't the point that it sounds similar to metroidvania? They ARE similar.

[@AnotherDuck]

Agreed.

[@morzathoth919]

Metroidvania is already a silly name, we dont need to repeat that mistake.

[@twinkbootygieg]

Glad I'm not the only one lol. The entire time I was just thinking "that's the entire point."

[@A1fAnERD]

When I was playing Antichamber (and trying to avoid spoiling anything), I remember missing some really important details on how to use one of the tools you get by foolishly teleporting back to the start when I got it, not noticing the door to the room that would explain how to use it. I ended up solving puzzles I needed that mechanic for in ridiculous other ways, only to discover hours later when I happened back to the room I got the tool upgrade in that I had hadn't been using it correctly. Word to the wise, never skip the instructions. Also, play Antichamber! Its mind bending and a hell of a lot of fun to discover.

[@mitchellboyce9853]

Another comment mentioned Myst, and I was thinking of Riven (Myst's first sequel) the whole time. It's a "puzzle" game that really only has a couple puzzles in the most usual sense, and the rest is just working out how to use devices and structures that weren't designed for some rando to come in and act like they own the place.

[@animdalf9178]

I think the boss in Tunic is exactly the point when you are supposed to figure out the leveling, since at that point you also receive manual page that has picture and name of that boss (Garden Knight) and next to it written in english: "You can do it! Try to be this strong: 3 Att, 3 Def" and another set of pictures of the level up items. ... At least that's how I found out.

[@Imperial_Squid]

Yep, and more than that, it's on page 19 which is literally the other side of the page that talks about levelling up, so Adam definitely had the page. One side tells you how to level up, the other side tells you that you need to and that if you don't this big guy will absolutely curb stomp you... I love ya Adam but this page was, I think, pretty direct about what it wanted you to do! 😅😂

[@headcrab4]

Idunno, i also missed that tidbit until way later!​@@Imperial_Squid

[@Imperial_Squid]

@@headcrab4 oh yeah of course, I'm not saying it's impossible to miss stuff, I had a hell of a time trekking back to the same shop until I figured out the hint about how to find them on the map 😅😂 was just saying that it's not the only hint Tunic gives about levelling 👌

[@dojelnotmyrealname4018]

Tunic does mess that up royally by putting you on the wrong track with sac items though, by making it seem like you're saccing the item for money instead of paying a fee.

[@xintrosi6829]

​@@dojelnotmyrealname4018how does that misunderstanding change things? You try it once and immediately understand you were wrong and move on from there. It being red when you don't have enough money would also clue you in.

[@MassiveDestructionSP]

I like "Knowledge Based Games".

[@k0lpA]

same, but discrovery games is fine.. sure better than metroidbrainia XD

[@laurensdesmet70]

Would imply that a specific, existing knowledge base would aid in solving the game, whereas these games are defined by their lack of grounding in any previously attained knowledge or information. Also, ‘discovery’ sounds more enticing and comes closer to why the genre would be fun in the first place.

[@MassiveDestructionSP]

@@k0lpA I mean, anything would be tbh

[@Darkprosper]

@@laurensdesmet70 I agree, my first thought on hearing "knowledge based games" would be trivia guessing games.

[@PhyloGenesis]

KBGs

[@LordofBroccoli]

I was going to put down Ainsel River as a moment when I felt lost in a game, but I thought of a better choice - Deepnest. I remember freaking out because I had no map, I didn't want to lose my money, I couldn't find the guy who sells maps, and the whole place is just so oppressive. I truly felt lost and hopeless in that place.

[@rskeen500]

Great suggestion. I fell down into Deepnest before getting the lantern and I had to trial and error my way through the maze, inching forward in the pitch darkness swinging my nail, not knowing where the enemies were coming from… all the while with the incessant chittering of the insects in my ears. Incredibly oppressive.

[@chaoslord8918]

@@rskeen500 Yeah, insects... (nervous laughter)

[@SeekerTerminarch]

Oh yeah. I remember my first time wandering in there... so incredibly relieved to finally find a bench. Then *instant dread* realizing that it just reset my spawn point and now I'm stuck here!

[@Darkprosper]

Yeah, when he asked the last time I felt truly lost in a video game, my first thought was Hollow Knight. Not necessarily Deepnest for me, but early on when the map opened up, with Fog Canyon, City of Tears, Fungal Wastes... It felt like I was stumbling forward in a gigantic world (well, I was, really). I also felt that way in Dark Souls 3 in the segment from Crystal Sage to Abyss Watchers, but that was very much amplified by getting super low on resources and missing a bonfire.

[@onlysmiles4949]

18:44 I think it's kind of funny and ironic that you talk about how intrinsically satisfying endgame puzzles in these games can be and how well a lot of them are designed while showing footage of a famously unsolvable puzzle that had to be brute forced for a solution, which pissed off the dev so much that he swore he'd take the actual solution to his grave

[@Ceruleanst]

It is my pet theory that there are no clues because he intended to hide the answer in Fez 2. We would be meant to find it and marvel at the "meta" idea of bringing this information back to the first game. While this would be a highlight of what only this genre can do, it would also be the kind of gimmick that becomes unwelcome very quickly.

[@chrishoward8500]

Animal Well and Tunic gave me gaming feelings I’ve never had before or since. Absolute masterpieces.

[@whiteraven9544]

you see, I have a terrible sense of direction so I get lost in pretty much every game (tbh in IRL too). I remember going out from a cave, walking around a tree and going in the same cave again while my friend watching me rumbling "nope this isn't the right cave either" in Satisfactory. He started calling me Zoro after that.

[@starkis14159]

Same here! Terrible sense of direction. When I first played stardew valley I got lost at midnight (in town...) and panicked because I didn't know what happens if you pass out

[@One.Zero.One101]

When I'm in a mall, sometimes I don't know how to get back to the parking lot lol. It's so embarrassing. In games when I go inside a dungeon with no minimap I don't know if I'm ever gonna get out. I tend to miss a lot of chests because I just beeline to the exit as quickly as possible.

[@LarkyLuna]

I think how they can be different from the usual metroidvanias is that those knowledge bits can be in your toolkit all along No matter how much you know beforehand you can freeze enemies in metroid, you still have to collect the beam I love games where you have everything all along except the knowledge of how to actually use stuff

[@MazLad]

The thing about the games you mentioned is they are some of the most memorable games I've ever played for those truly organic realisation moments. No "I just gotta" protagonists to be seen, and minimal functional HUD without Bethesda markers. Bliss.

[@desertdweller9003]

I love how almost every video of yours finds a way to mention Outer Wilds, and I'm all here for it.

[@FastFoxFR]

it's like the dark souls franchise in the way that, when you've played it, you can't stop yourself from talking about it

[@andrewhooper7603]

@@FastFoxFR we can absolutely stop ourselves from talking about it; it's refraining from mentioning it that's difficult. in fact, once we mention it, it's more difficult to keep us talking about it. the number of times I've told people "just play it. it's a game you can beat in 20 minutes that will take you 20 hours to learn how. and that is all I'll say." is almost shameful. it's like a verbal tic.

[@PloverTechOfficial]

20:34 they’re both Metroid because they share those concepts, the vania vs brania I think is more to do with how progress is stored in a save file or usable from boot-up because of the player not the game.

[@KryyssTV]

These are actually Adventure games as the term was originally defined in the 90s when this style of knowledge based progression first emerged within "point-n-click adventure" games like Day of the Tentacle or The Secret of Monkey Island. The fact the term has been misused to the point of confusion doesn't change the original meaning even slightly. As for the rising trend wthin indie titles, such as more recent examples being Moonring and Shadows of Doubt, this isn't unexpected as the point-n-click adventure formula has been lost to obscurity for decades so for anyone born in the last 25 years this genre is a fresh and new despite being rooted in the silver age of gaming.

[@BillBert1981]

Agreed, also Day of the Tentacles was such a great game!

[@MrRirate]

by searching: “puzzle adventure games” I found my good old Monkey Island or The Dig on the same page as Outer Wilds 👌👌☺☺

[@cheez8Productions]

I started Isles of Sea and Sky quite recently- fantastic game, and there's really not a word spoken to you, nor much of anything keeping you on one path. Even the first island is more openly sprawling than other games let themselves be, and that's before the game opens up. You get so lost, so fast. It's truly fantastic.

[@erinkarp]

This is the 3rd vid I've seen on "metroidbrainias" and each one is a treat!

[@EvaTheEpic]

Great video!! These types of games have become my all time favorite genre, you've basically shown all of my favorite games in one video. I call them knowledge games or knowledge-based games because their main idea is discovering the "knowledge" to figure out the game! Thank you for introducing me to Lorelei, gonna try it next.

[@elio6361]

I was like "isnthis a reupload ? I swear I've seen this already" but I think it's just that gmtk thought of it at the same time 😅

[@binky777]

80% of yt is just chat gpt based these days.

[@gusfring96]

Gmtk released two weeks earlier. Adam really should make up his own interesting topics instead of regurgitating whatever gmtk has released in the past week

[@nascentspace]

I've heard these kinds of puzzle games get called Riddle Games instead of Puzzle Games, which I think is a good word for it

[@andrewhooper7603]

would have been nice if "puzzle games" had been named "problem games" because puzzle would really be the best name. to me, a problem game is something like sudoku, where you know what has to be done, but not how to do it. a good puzzle is something that you know needs to be done, but you haven't got a clue where the loose end of the string is just yet. there we go, they're tangled puzzles.

[@ashleyanne2056]

And here I thought no one else played Anti-Chamber. Loved that one

[@Vintagestep]

7:35 When you mentioned "taking notes" I just remembered the enjoyment I have with Escape Room games that started on the Flash era, like submachine, I'd have a notebook close by my keyboard and took notes of patterns, codes, or even do my own mapping, it's so fun to piece the game together on your own.

[@SpriteDuel]

Finding these types of games in the first place is also discovery.

[@scottgoodrich5430]

I don't see that anyone has mentioned Cultist Simulator, so I'll put it out there. There is some discreet guidance early on to show you the absolute basics, and the cards have little icons on them that you can refer to. But, most of the gameplay is in discovering whole game mechanics that are only referenced in oblique, poetic hints. The first time I stumbled into the Mansus *chef's kiss.*

[@andrewhooper7603]

the moment you realize you're playing as soon as you start up and there is no real tutorial, lol.

[@QuantumHistorian]

There is one weakness that many discovery games have and, while not critical, is hard to avoid. When *information* is key, any discrepancy between the _player's_ knowledge and their _character's_ knowledge can seriously break immersion. This invariably happens when replaying a game, or if there's a die-learn-and-try-again game loop (which can only be partially fixed by a rebirth / time-travel lore in-game). That's why many discovery games have an undeveloped playable character without much in the term of back story, relationships, or personality. You simply can't make the player care about their character much when the main game mechanic (learning information) keeps reminding you of the huge gulf between player and character. Again, that doesn't mean such games terrible, but it does make a certain type of emotional engagement or story telling difficult for them to pull off.

[@killerbee.13]

tbf this is a major problem in rpgs too, it's not unique to discovery games. There are a lot of cases where you can do something in a different order and learn that, for example, someone is an enemy in disguise, but the main quest requires you to still work with them until later. Though the issue does present pretty differently in discovery games. It's especially bad if the game actually locks off something and breaks its own rules until you're supposed to have figured something out.

[@QuantumHistorian]

​@@killerbee.13 In RPGs and the like you often die because of a _skill_ issue in combat, not a lack of _knowledge,_ which is pretty different IMO and not as bad. It's easier to forget about your character death when you try your luck again and you (as a player) haven't gained game-altering information. Even if the practice does improve your skills, it's easy to rationalise that your character always had those skills, and you the player just had to catch up, so those practice fights you had don't count. But in a discovery game what you learn, by definition, fundamentally shifts what you can do in the game, rather than what you can do easily. That makes it harder, for me at least, to ignore or rationalise away character deaths. And yes, often in RPGs where I die to a surprise enemy, it does feel like cheating (or at least breaks immersion) when I go back into that room and know where they're hiding. I'd also add that games where you're expected to die a lot (soul-likes, platformers) are also those with very bland characters. RPGs where the emphasis is on character RP tend to have it happen a lot less frequently. Compare Elden Ring with Kingdom Come for example.

[@Latronibus]

I had so much trouble with this with Midnight Protocol, and that's not even really a "discovery game". That game has this big reveal that your character should've known about the whole time.

[@SeekerTerminarch]

Yeah. Although it was an RPG, Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a great example. Spoilers: Partway through the game, your digitally-augmented vision starts glitching out. You overhear some ads implying that you need to visit a clinic to get upgrades. Well, I frankly couldn't be bothered and just rushed the story. If you do the upgrade, the final boss can take control of your body, it was a trap all along in classic mind control world domination fashion. If you don't do the upgrade, your character starts monologuing about how you figured out the whole master plan and everything. Meanwhile I'm standing there like... wtf just happened? I never found ANYTHING even remotely connected, I was just lazy. Detective of the year lol

[@killerbee.13]

@@QuantumHistorian I was specifically talking about story. Combat is a completely different thing. I suppose traps that are completely invisible until you trigger them that you have to just know ahead of time to avoid are a similar thing that does result in character death, but otherwise I was talking about something completely different.

[@fablor9900]

Metroidbrainia is the term commonly used because they are like metroidvania's, but most of the keys in vania's are items, while most of the brainia's keys are your knowledge. like the key and lock metaphor someone (I think gmtk? I'm not sure feel free to correct me and I'll edit) used to describe the design of Metroidvania's.

[@kaksspl]

Yeah, for the same reason I like the term. It makes it a third of the similar genres, next to metroidvanias themselves and Souls likes where the difficult combat is both lock and key. Discovery is too vague.

[@ilikebread_01]

The joke behind criticizing the term "metroidbrainia" comes from the fact that GMTK's video calls them like that, since he mentions at the beginning of the video that he is annoyed at the fact that that their videos share a similar premise. A light jab since they are friends, to put it otherwise.

[@arthurjeannin3357]

You don't need to use apostrophes for the plural form of a noun: it's Metroidvanias, not Metroidvania's

[@Dash123456789Brawl]

@@ilikebread_01Oh, so that argument explaining why the name is bad felt self-defeating on purpose?

[@SomeGuyWithAFace9]

6:16 for a while ive been jokingly calling games adjacent to this category "spoiler-likes", because they are games that are really good, but you cant tell your friends *why* they are good beyond insisting "no dude for real its so good, you have to play it" because any specific discussion of the mechanics spoils the surprise and discovery inherent in trying them for yourself blind.

[@SlamUnited]

Since it is what original adventures were about, I think "Adventure Games" sounds like the right way to say it.

[@ApsilonUK]

Great video, and I'm so glad you included the list of games you featured as there's a few I haven't seen and really like the look of.

[@OPODRAO]

finally you're talking about these games, but you forgot to mention the peak of this genre, the game NOITA

[@cllaay]

I watched GMT first and immediately wanted more on the topic, yours popped up as first recommendation :) perfect timing and fascinating video

[@cherubin7th]

Metroid-brainias are called like exactly because they are the same, but the item is in your brain as knowledge.

[@ericahess7508]

exactly. since most people know how Metroidvanias work it's not much work to explain the difference between those and Metroidbrainias

[@davinderc]

What's metroidvania?

[@ericahess7508]

@@davinderc games like the Metroid series (which gave it its name) or Hallow Knight (tho this also fits under Souls-like for its boss fights being kinda hard) where you have a big map but you can't explore the whole thing cuz sections are locked in some way behind different power ups you get as the game goes along. So you'll frequently be backtracking and visiting areas again once you're able to fully explore them

[@LucaOrtolano]

Only the fact that you added all the title of the games in the description is worth subscribing by itself!

[@GabeFrank]

At the very outset, when you asked about being lost, I immediately thought of Miasmata. The only game that ever truly made me feel LOST. Then again, it's largely a game about cartography, so i suppose it makes sense

[@BrewerM23]

2:58 Oh! Hey, you saw the Blue Prince demo too? It's a very cool game, I hope it drops soon.

[@nicks4727]

I think they are called Knowledge Based Games (or at least that's the term I've seen used most). but Discovery is effectively the same

[@e3.14c4]

Bonus comment, Minecraft used to be one of these, it hasn't had any air of mystery except in the few unique interactions here and there (dripstone lava into a cauldron for example), where the whole game used to have a social dynamic of 'wait now how can I do that?' that was cleverly called back to in that crafting clip they showed in minecraft live recently for the new movie.

[@dezarla]

My answer for the opening question: it has been a long, long time. It was 1999, my dad surprised my sister and me with an N64 and the legend of Zelda, the ocarina of time on our weekend trip to visit. We played all Saturday and Sunday, ending with getting to dodongo's cavern, getting to the point where you're supposed to bomb the giant skull's eyes. We had no clue for weeks after that.

[@matthewstarkie4254]

Riven is one of the best examples of this kind of game (and one of the earliest). Highly recommend people try the original version which still holds up (there is a remake, which I haven't played, but from the reviews talking about how the puzzles "make more sense", I'm worried the new version has lost this aspect and become straight up Adventure game. I couldn't say for certain though).

[@matthewstarkie4254]

@@AnOliviaShapedGremlin That's unfortunate. Finally having all the pieces of what was happening and what I was supposed to be doing click in my head is one of the greatest game experiences of my life.

[@RoundinAir]

@@matthewstarkie4254 I fully agree and I'm sad to learn that. Maybe I'll just stick with the original.

[@AldoInza]

12:34 It says to increase power, shows you the statue, shows you which button to press, uses names for stats that are recognizable, and this game is so amazing because you can miss the obvious for so long that you feel both thrilled and stupid for missing something key. I suppose that's every game on this video to a degree.

[@FMagno]

I loved your definition and the name to it. By what I understood of your definition "Discovery Games" is a broader and bigger genre where "Metroidvania" is a Subgenre of it.

[@zacharywong483]

Absolutely splendid script, as always! Stellar video!

[@TYBTech]

" We're so comppelled to complete our mental picture of these games to understand everything there is to...". A great description of that moment when you ask yourself where and when you’re actually finished with a game. I for one decided to platinum a game on playstion to feel okay now I can let go.

[@TheRumpletiltskin]

Disco Elysium made me feel lost, and it was amazing. You never really know what is happening until it's all over, and even that depends on your choices in game.

[@NagaTales]

I think one of my favorite games in this genre is one I didn't realize *was* this genre. "MYST". Up until I realized it was more than 'just a puzzle game' and was instead this 'information/discovery' kind of game, I just saw it as a well designed puzzle game that relied on self-motivation and smart note-taking. But it really is one of this genre. Everything from how to access worlds, what numbers you need, what certain sounds mean, what direction to set things, all of it is laid out in the game. You just need to find that information yourself. A good sign that a game is of this type is that once you've beaten it, you can 'skip' the majority of the game right from the beginning, because you know the information you need to finish right from the start.

[@logicalfundy]

To me, Myst and its sequels were always far more than a puzzle game - they're miles away from something like Tetris or Sudoku. Sure, Myst had puzzles, but it's an entire world and everything is connected.

[@g_vost]

a game like this me and my mom enjoyed is The Room VR. we'd take turns wandering around a level and sharing information and clues we'd found to figure out the solutions, and even the purpose of, different puzzles around the levels. im sure it wasnt intended as a coop experience, but the limited information of this genre of games makes communication an easy way to add a new dynamic to the discovery process.

[@noiJadisCailleach]

Another fine work, Adam!

[@raegardens8339]

I feel truly lost every time I play a game without linear design or any quest markers. Jedi survivor had me in despair (still great game)

[@fluffy_tail4365]

One prototypical discovery game before they got big is La Mulana and its sequel. They still partially focus on the action part but have the multilayered mysteries

[@fractalgem]

12:50 Fun fact: while theres guard rails the devs deliberately left some ways to hop over them in place for speedrunners.

[@grfrjiglstan]

Adam once again helping me fill out my wishlist ahead of Christmas, what a nice guy.

[@andrewhooper7603]

puzzle boxes really are the best metaphor. you can almost see outer wilds especially as a moving sculpture. the best metaphor i have is something knotted or tangled. you can grab a knot or bundle of string and nothing is hidden from you. it's all there in front of you, but you'll probably need to turn it over a few times to find what you need to pull.

[@disjustice]

A game that truly captures the feeling of being lost, along with the panicked sense of desperation that comes with it is a kind of obscure survival/puzzle game called Miasmata. You are trapped on a tropical island, infected with a mystery disease, and being occasionally hunted by a predator. You have a compass and a map, but the game never marks your location. Your only way of navigating is orienting off of landmarks.

[@chaoslord8918]

This sounds awesome. More games need to do this.

[@_Cypher__]

Haven't heard that name since 2014. I have got to play it one of these days

[@grfrjiglstan]

The "Don't Escape" series of flash games is a brilliant example of this. In each of those games, you start in a room that isn't locked and have to avoid some terrible fate, be it getting flushed out of an airlock, eaten by zombies, or turning into a werewolf and wreaking havoc. Almost every item in every game has multiple uses, and you have to think about what you specifically need out of them before using them. Do you shoot a zombie guarding a key item, knowing the noise will attract more zombies for you to deal with? Do you use a gas can on a car which will help you transport resources faster, or on a generator to create sturdier defenses? They're pretty short, but very replayable and very worth a check.

[@Evanz111]

Honestly it was Dragon’s Dogma 2. Even with the map and waypoints, I kept ending up far away from any points of interest or idea how to get back to safety. Compounded by some cool things like the Elven sanctuary having NPCs all speaking in an unreadable language, and environmental interactions like griffins taking you to their nests. Some of the many things I loved about that first playthrough on it, a shame I won’t be able to feel it again after discovering these things.

[@lpfan4491]

There is a very easy metric for a well-designed world. If you can play in a language you don't understand and still have a sense of orientation, then that's good. If you straight up are given instructions in your language and still get lost, then that's bad. The scale in-between is rather self-explanatory.

[@ComfortChef]

I watched SuperDude's video on Knowledge Based Games a long time and loved it and more recently saw Tim Sensei's videos on "Metroidbrainias". I really like Metroidbraina (not just for the pun) but because it really is a backtracking like in metroidvanias but the powerups are the accumulation of knowledge.

[@brandygonz12]

I also find it interesting to think about survival games (at least the ones focused on survival like Don't Starve) as some "discovery" games since the main idea is to discover and master the rules of a new world. At the beginning you are quite lost and vulnerable but after dying and dying many times, you slowly learn what to avoid and how to survive longer until you reach the point where this previously hostile environment is now like a second home. So if anyone is interested in talking about survival games and how they are fundamentaly "knwoledge based games", don't hesitate to contact me. I am also developping a survival video game in this direction :)

[@KatieAndCatburger]

I had been calling many of the games in this vid "investigation games" I swear I heard this name somewhere but I can't remember where. I definitely appreciate the term "discovery games" though. It is a bit broader and I really like the way you've defined it here. It captures how exciting it is to make a new discovery! I've also loved watching this new type of game unfold and see these concepts refined by different devs. For example, Animal Well seems to take a lot of Tunic's ideas about discovery and twist 'em and shake 'em, and hold your hand even less. And Tim Cain's videos are SOOO GOOOOOD!!!

[@MrHrulgin]

12:00 You and me both. I finally had to look it up (the only thing I looked up in the game) to realize that there were more pages to that architect's book. The desk just didn't look like it held more pages that could be flipped through.

[@AcencialAMV]

How long until the video game esseyiste realize that the greatest discovery game is a top rated visual novel 🤔 Jokes aside, Umineko no Naku Koro ni was my first exposure to this genre, and it's amazing how that one game sparked a love for mostery and 'puzzleboxes'. Highly recommend it, it's up there with Outer Wilds for me, maybe even more meaningful

[@AbruptAvalanche]

It's not exactly the kind of "lost" you're talking about, but when I first started playing Minecraft, I had trekked too far from my home base and realized I forgot the way back. There was this wave of dread that came over me knowing that the world is infinite and I might never find my way back. With enough wandering, I eventually found my way home, but I had never been so spatially lost in a game before or since then. As scary as it was, I kinda wish a modern game could recapture that feeling somehow.

[@TM-qe2us]

Metroidbrainia actually makes a truckload of sense. Metroidvania games have a key aspect of exploration and discovery through revisiting old areas with new abilities. Matroidbrainia games have a key aspect of exploration and discovery through revisiting old areas after understanding new information. Your sensibilities have been offended into short-circuiting your brain, but the name actually does work.

[@Imperial_Squid]

Oh cool! Another video about my favourite genre of games, that genre of course being named "metroidbrainias" 😉😜

[@stevenglowacki8576]

I really don't like how many spoilers there were in this video, when you should know that the whole genre is based around knowledge items like the ones you gave away. I've played small bits of Overboard and Chants of Senaar, and now you've given me information that feels entirely crucial to being able to complete the game when I had assumed that you would know to not give away any information like that. Overboard I'm not sure if I'll play again, because I just have something against the main idea of the main character having to seduce the captain to get anywhere (which I already knew about), if only because the game makes it seem as though you're not enjoying it (or at least, that's how I interpreted it). Chants of Senaar I may or may not go back to, but I don't think I can unremember what you told me about the game. As for Tunic, I got fairly far into the game. I'm currently unable to progress because I'm unable to defeat the next boss I have to. I've tried plenty of times and have gotten nowhere. It is a Dark Souls difficulty game even if you translate the entire manual. I have plenty of other games to play that I enjoy more. Also, to be honest, translating the manual gave me effectively no useful information, as I had figured out everything relevant already, or the manual was totally useless in what it was saying about some system. I don't think the "knowledge-based" elements matter all that much, since the main one I can recall (how to use the teleporters) they pretty much give away from what I recall once you need to know that information. It's a totally different game than Outer Wilds with a much bigger focus on Dark-Souls-adjacent combat.

[@mawillix2018]

The chants of sennaar spoiler isn't *very* massive. It spoils somewhere between a quarter and an eighth of that specific area, which is still kinda annoying. For a more impactful anti-spoiler, the game has a built in "spoiler" that I wish I could've avoided. If you're able to progress without them avoid solving the spin-to-match puzzles in the final area. Solving the entire language too soon means that you'll get to read some text that is still meant to be hidden, and it can really ruin the mood.

[@qs7101]

To answer the first question: Dragon's Dogma. Started playing it recently with almost zero knowledge about this game other that it's an rpg and it allows you to climb enemies during fights. It felt like playing games as a kid, when i couldn't understand what i'm supposed to do cause of bad translation or not having enough patience to read through descriptions, and it was cool. The game just throws you into its world, so first time playing i was confused what the "main quest line" is even supposed to be. The game has tons of mechanics it simply doesn't show, it's narrative tone is all over the place and it's so confusing all the time it completely demolished desire to 100% every location and quest, because even getting what this game wants from you feels like an accomplishment. It's the most fun i've had with these types of games in recent years, because it's just too weird to be taken as other games and it's combat is actually really enjoyable even at its worst.

[@Fachewachewa]

I think most metroidvanias are too similar and formulaic that we could consider discovery a part of those games. Yeah you technically explore a map but I think that's very different from the mental "map" you make when playing Outer Wilds for example. The point of metroidbrainia as a term is that once you know something it is "unlocked", while in classic metroids type games, you deifnitely know when you need a double jump or a dash way before getting them, there's no discovery when you're just going through the motions, cf your point about Leap Year (though I definitely didn't get the days in the "correct" order in this game :D) I guess it's similar to Metroid Dread, which a bunch of people said "it's so great because you don't realise how much the game is guiding you". If you do actually notice when playing, it hurts the game a lot.

[@hexidecimark]

It's just like the major always says, "information is ammunition".

[@ChrisWhiton]

Fez was and still is one of my favorite games of this type. I even accidentally stumbled onto one of the endgame collectibles pretty early on, but finding out what that mystery piece was for was the driving factor for me to figure out the rest of the game, only to discover that there was an even FURTHER layer I hadn't yet discovered. So awesome! I think it's been enough years now that I can almost go back to it without remembering the solutions =)

[@Xeconis]

I've basically been going through a personal phase of a "metroidvania renaissance" where I go through and play a ton of metroidvania games that I haven't played yet (or didn't play enough to remember anything about) and it's been probably one of the most enjoyable periods of time when it comes to gaming in my free time. Some of it is because getting immersed and lost in the vast/rich worlds they toss you in, and some of it is because when done well, being thrown into an unfamiliar environment and it telling you a gripping story as you uncover each area to find what was left behind without using hardly any real dialogue is something that can just be... incredibly moving. Games like ENDER LILIES: Quietus of the Knights, Afterimage, Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night, and GRIME have all left deep impressions on me. ENDER LILIES is one of the few games that I genuinely wish I could experience again completely blind. Not even just the part where you're left to your own devices but the environmental storytelling opportunities that come from exquisitely well crafted locations and ruins and records of the past.

[@XXaronn]

See, every game can be about getting lost somewhere when you have no sense of direction!

[@icarusgaming6269]

In Assassin's Creed (2007), you not only get lost in the complex cities, but you also have to assemble the game's built-in strategy guide on how to complete each main target assassination smoothly. Meeting with your contact ahead of time will provide information about where your objectives are, and once you get close something will reach out to pull you in like a sound cue or suspiciously acting NPC. Tall towers give you a literal bird's eye view of the area, and important structures like the bureau are visually distinct in the skyline. The reward for paying attention to this are the intel pages hidden away in the memory log that detail guard patrol patterns, expected target behavior, and potential infil and exfil routes that open up stealth approaches to assassinations that would otherwise seem impossible to complete without devolving into a city-wide brawl. Unfortunately this is one of those games where the developer meddling was so severe that, before you read this comment, it made it impossible to tell it even was a discovery game. The intel is in a flat unimmersive menu you would never think to check for the entire duration, the radar gives away every single viewpoint and investigation for free, and you have so much HP you can comfortably button mash through every optional sword fight that's meant to punish you for poor planning even if you aren't paying attention to the combat system, which is a whole other can of worms we don't have time to get into. It's up to you to avoid synchronizing viewpoints or looking at the map, turn off the HUD, and diligently check your memory log before beginning every main assassination, because the way the game offers "help" will just make it into a repetitive slog. Particularly in the area of physical navigation, many open world games never stopped offering organic options for finding your way around, but they're buried under so many artificial waypoints, floating markers, tooltips, and reminders that you never noticed. The "Ubisoft formula" of voraciously chasing around checklists of collectibles attributed to very organic games like Marvel's Spider-Man and Far Cry 5 is not a pervasive design philosophy, but a pervasive social construct that exists only in your mind to hold you back from engaging with the world design on its own terms. If you train yourself to seek patterns in the world and aggressively disable any HUD settings you can get away with like I have, you can free your mind from this prison and make these kinds of games fun again

[@NKay08]

While I enjoyed AC1 many years ago and agree that it did not yet have the pervasive "Ubisoft formula", I don't really think it fits in with the titles mentioned in the video. But if you are not comparing to those titles, I very much agree, that less information given to the player can often be much better. Quest markers and icons for every location, even unexplored ones, can be too much. Depending on the scale of the map, on the other hand, too few tools can also be bad. For example, I wouldn't want to traverse the map of Morrowind completely without a Auto-Map, but in comparison to later Elder Scrolls games, it only shows landmarks on the map that you have actually have been to (or an NPC reasonably has marked on your map IIRC). The quest log in that game was only added with the Expansion packs and all it does is to show the most important information for that quest, no markers. A game like Dark Souls or Gothic 1 + 2 don't need an Auto-Map, because the world is tightly designed with lots of memorable landmarks.

[@icarusgaming6269]

@@NKay08 That's what I mean about the world itself being organic. Skyrim is actually pretty good about this with signs and distinctive landmarks, but AC Oddysey is a barren wasteland (although the bird helps to keep you out of the map). I've found I've gotten better at identifying which worlds are best for this over time just by recognizing the design tropes that make up for reduced artificial information like logical road placement, curated sightlines, verbal or written directions, and radial alerts to nearby points of interest

[@epicmetalwarrior5476]

The recomendation in the end was gold.

[@hakimomatata]

Discovery Games sounds alright to me, somewhere I heard 'KBU' games meaning games that engage the player in knowledge based unlocks... as an Outer Wilds enthusiast I find this nomer particularly fitting :)

[@henryglennon3864]

Reminds me of this one game where you fall out of the sky, land on a dock next to a sunken ship, and get wordlessly abandoned and left to your own devices.

[@DirtyMike124x]

Your Metroidbrainia joke made me chortle and just about choke on my own laughter 🤣 it was like being hit with a comedic sucker punch. I was half zoned out cleaning up a rain mattress stain from when this mattress was moved recently , and your joke plummeted me right back down to earth and totally stopped progress for a minute lol. Back to it

[@SiberianThunderT]

Your description of the convoluted puzzles in Lorelei reminded me of Myst and Grim Fandango. I'm surprised neither was mentioned here, nor even a general nod to classic point-and-click puzzle-adventure games, which seem like they all fit the general description of "discovery games" suggested here

[@trevorvergesart]

The problem with Void Stranger is that even when you do uncover all the mysteries the game has to offer its still just like, a convoluted mess with a dozen loose ends. You're not much better off then if you just play it though voided and quit. The second the Void Stranger music started playing my blood pressure rose

[@BlackMarluxia]

I've a hard time fully agreeing with that. There's a lot of parallels/references to other works (or the dev's other game) which aren't always explicitly mentioned, so some insights can heavily hinge on "does the player happen to know this other thing outside of the game?" And even then, the worldbuilding and storytelling of VS reminded me a lot of Dark Souls, where you're not just handed a story, but instead stumble upon some clues and are left to fill in the blanks yourself.

[@Alfred_the_doodler]

Tunic was the only game I played of this style and I loved it! Thanks for showing more games that do this Lost thing well too

[@kamitra]

I've heard the term "knowledge-based games" used for Fear and Hunger in this instance. I still don't remember how the last guy in Obra Dinn died as he got like impaled, then crawled his ass halfway across the ship... like blood loss wasn't enough?

[@nickblood8503]

To answer the video's opening question before I watch the rest: I've been playing this charming indie game called Sailwind where I can take long multi-hour ocean voyages across the sea and have to navigate/find my way using in-game tools like a compass, quadrant, chronometer etc. There's no UI to guide me, just the in-game tools and environment. I can use the in-game skybox, which has a north star, etc, to guide me as well, and I can use things like a sun compass at midday to calculate longitude and latitude to figure out where I am. It's a game where getting lost and finding one's way is a core mechanic, and it's quite brilliantly executed as a concept despite being a tiny dev team and an EA game. I think it's a good example of getting truly lost, and the joy of finding one's way again (sighting land after many days at sea) makes for a memorable game experience.

[@TheTalonTrooper]

19:35 how dare you stab me directly in my DS2-loving heart

[@frog42]

For puzzle boxes there's a type called sequential discovery which is where you solve one bit and it leads into another bit somewhere down the line. It's really cool and very much reminds me of this

[@ashleyanne2056]

Love that you showed "outer worlds" when talking about "outer wilds". So many people mixed those up at launch

[@SnipFred]

I was looking for Outer Worlds but then accidentally stumbled onto Outer Wilds and it was the best mistake of my life.

[@VeeZzz123]

Metroidbrainia is a good name, and you explained exactly why, in your attempt at explaining why it isn't.

[@Zectifin]

I'm definitely going to only call it Metroidbrania, because not only is it great, but it annoys people.

[@JoeSmoPedro]

Pseudoregalia had me running round in circles like a headless chicken looking for new paths I hadn't taken yet and I still never found all the keys for progression. Makes sense to get lost in though as it is supposed to be evocative of a dream.

[@ninjakivi2]

12:00 God dammit, I did the exact same thing in both games that you mentioned, In Lorelei I was reading up some hints online and noticed people mentioning that you can solve the architect's tubes right from the start of the game, which left me wandering about to try and do it myself before discovering you can turn the pages like an hour later. Same with Tunic, I learned about leveling up after the first bossfight because I could not believe how hard that game was, and was checking if others have the same issue. In both cases I got a little push by researching the topic, the biggest thing in these discovery games is to know IF you have enough information to solve a puzzle, and something that's all the motivation you need to think more and progress, rather than blaming your stupidity on lack of information and giving up on the puzzle (for now)

[@cassidy8307]

It's not a puzzle game, but B3313 has to be one of my favorite games i've gotten lost in. The scale of the castle is absolutely insane. It's fun trying to learn how to efficiently get back to new locations once you've went through like a dozen unique hubs.

[@duseylicious]

In Mario Maker, there are only two checkpoints allowed. But clever level builders figured how to “fake” a check point by letting the player skip sections, but only once they’ve learned to hit a secret block or some other trick that lets them pass. They call them “knowledge checkpoints.”

[@DeathsInBottles]

Nice to see all of favourite games casually listed one after another.

[@PretendCoding]

23:28 huYeahYuh! Mah boi... I mean, um... He's got a lot of great insights on video game creation, the industry, philosophy, and he has an unofficial master's degree in chocolate studies.

[@superhetoric]

the "discovery" aspect to series like soulsborne and zelda would've never existed without D&D. it really does all come back to tabletop!

[@AaronJSussman]

13:40 "Heavy handed?" I see what you did there.