The "Harsh Reality" of Weapon Balancing | BattleBit Remastered Gameplay

[@ComptonEMT]

"of a skilled player" is mentioned a lot. One thing that isn't mentioned is "of an unskilled player"... This is where things get interesting. An "unskilled player" can pick up the vector and instantly find improvement. That is what makes it different from other guns.

[@TheLizardKing752]

While that's true, and they will find improvement, they'll still be pushing angles that shouldn't be pushed, reloading at the wrong times, and making other stupid decisions.

[@YungFozz]

@@TheLizardKing752True, but the Vector lets them get away with it

[@suntzu6122]

Games should be balanced based on what good players can do.

[@IcarusErm]

The problem with your thought process is this: An unskilled player (if had the option from jump street) could pick up and M4 and see dramatic differences compared to something like a Famas or AK5C. Am I saying the vector isn't unbalanced? Definitely not.

[@IcarusErm]

@@suntzu6122 Then they'd have to balance constantly lol. Really good players will always find a new and better way once something is nerfed. Like he just said, you'd just end up nerfing another gun, device, or mechanic.

[@dukedynamite3d]

"Well guys, here's the harsh reality...There are balance issues" -the guy using the sweatiest medic / vector loadout ignoring reviving and healing teammates who cuts to missing several easy sniper shots on still targets lol

[@JadedJet]

"Skilled player"

[@michaelwoodby5261]

The submachine guns really could also use a drop in their bullet velocity. Other than the mp7 and P90 that would even be realistic, while also making them more true to their niche.

[@exmachina2600]

Vastly prefer velocity nerfs over accuracy nerfs.

[@jaywerner8415]

@@exmachina2600 Velocity doesn't mean much when the MP7 can still kill you at the same range as the UMP can, which has twice the bullet velocity. Its not a matter of Velocity, but Accuracy at range. SMGs compared to ARs have almost no recoil, so while ARs have to "tap fire" or use Burst fire to get similar accuracy on target, an SMG can just hold the trigger till the mag runs dry.

[@NicholasBrakespear]

@@jaywerner8415 Very much this. Even if velocity was reduced to subsonic levels... it's still a steady, accurate stream. Compensate for the drop, and you still have a weapon that outperforms the ARs. In fact, drop the velocity enough, and you'd actually be able to pull off trick shots with a weapon that had such low recoil; arcing bullets over cover etc.

[@ActNasty5]

@@NicholasBrakespearthis dudes over here thinking about curve the bullet 😂

[@exmachina2600]

@@jaywerner8415 >an SMG can just hold the trigger until the mag runs dry This is true of AR’s too, particularly the M4. If you’re getting hosed at range by a weapon with poor velocity, it’s your own fault for standing still. No SMG outperforms the M4 at range. If you are getting hosed by the mp7 or the Groza beyond 50 meter’s it’s because your strafe is nonexistent. You can kill a stationary target with a weapon with any velocity, but all you have to do to make that kill 10x more challenging for an opponent using a Groza or MP7 is move a little. If they kill you anyway, we’ll, I’m sorry bro but they’re probably the better player.

[@CosyPigeon]

Make aim flinch scale based on weapon caliber and projectile velocity so that medium range Ar's don't get dominated by smg's at the rangers ARs are supposed to excel at. Give the vector and scorpion harsher damage fall off. Buff armor to be a flat dr reduction that functions as long as you are alive, instead of being a set of temporary hit points that become dead weight the fist time you get shot at. This will enable more nuance in balancing.

[@NiceEvils]

Smart

[@ghosterino]

Totally agree for the armor, in fact I was sure the armor Stat was damage reduction until I was told it was hit points

[@wellingtonbruh3756]

Yeah, this would make dmrs less useless. They are fun to use, but you get destroyed by every other gun if they shoot first.

[@ilikeboom100]

@@wellingtonbruh3756 theyll still be useless, the only two that are worth a damn compared to ars are the m14 and m110 after you get the heavy barrel

[@wellingtonbruh3756]

@@ilikeboom100 and that's only after you suffer for hours to get 300+kills with a gun that's bad up until you get a heavy barrel. I think they would be much better with a faster bullet and way less first shot recoil. Follow up shots are hard in any close/medium range situation because your aim is thrown everywhere with each shot or when you get hit. Honestly, the scar is a better dmr.

[@davyrando1203]

My issue with the Vector isn't that it rips up close - it's an SMG, of course it should! It should absolutely beat almost every other weapon in CQB. My issue is the recoil, accuracy, and ranged performance. It should NOT out-perform assault rifles at medium range. I think an effective fix could be a mix of increased horizontal recoil and drastically increased bullet drop. Still rips up close, makes it more balanced at range, and is somewhat realistic to the weapon's performance IRL.

[@allstarwoo4]

Honestly increasing horizontal recoil alone might do the trick. That'll nerf it's ranged capabilities without nerfing it's close range hit chance.

[@tharetsku]

It doesn't out-perform assault rifles, but it is way too good

[@angerskarin9222]

@@tharetsku It does, if you have a vector you can easily kill people at 200 meters with out a problem.

[@tharetsku]

@@angerskarin9222 200m is a grave exaggeration. There is no fucking universe where you can "easily kill people at 200 meters". And if there is, show me some clips. 200m is far, even for ARs. The fal has a better ttk than the vector at anything further than 100 meters I'm pretty sure. The vector has an insane ttk, but there's damage fall off and extremely slow bullet velocity. Don't get me wrong, vector is op and it can do pretty much as well as the ARs at medium range, but it definitely doesn't outperform them.

[@angerskarin9222]

@@tharetsku I did it, I seen others do it, because you cant do it doesn't mean every one cant, the gun is a laser beam at all range and need serious nerfs.

[@prestonjohnson1343]

For the vector, I think all the needs to happen is the damage fall off needs to be a bit sooner. I think that would do a ton

[@williambencher2466]

Volume of fire is... Yup.

[@hellomynameisjim]

Totally agree. In fact, I think most SMGs should probably receive a nerf re: damage fall-off over range. Velocity & Accuracy are also possibilities, but may be detrimental.

[@bagels377]

decrease mag sizes and your suggestion.

[@milsimprodigy]

What is "hit rate"

[@TheThe.]

@@bagels377 vector in real life has no recoil so I'd personally like it to stay

[@palmabolp]

Imma be real, most weapons don't really need a nerf or anything, besides buffing stuff like the Famas, but other than that some tweaks not much else is needed in my opinion. However, the SMG class and especially the Vector NEED a nerf. Period. Using the Vector in it's current state is straight up a warcrime. Smgs in general have a relativly long range and look, yeah some smgs can go fairly far, but the Vector for example sure as hell cannot.

[@CAMIKAZE78]

Agreed, buffing over nerfing will be pretty solid. The Vector is very much in a league of its own, I think the ONLY SMGs that should carry some slight effectiveness at ranges should be the PP19 and MP5, given they tend to sacrifice some DPS for accuracy.

[@eis6570]

Yeah i play like one game where everyone is running vector and let me tell you it's horrendous. Watched my ass get melted under 1 second after they peeked

[@orderlyhippo1569]

Or give it negative recoil lol

[@justarandomcommenter570]

​​​@@eis6570ly one game? In almost every round I play i swear there will always be a good number of players on the server running vectors and they even wreck ARs and LMGs :P -CQB? Ded to Vector -Short-to-medium ranges? Always ded to Vector -Medium ranges? somehow, vector again! -Long range? Vecto--nah jk but i wouldnt be surprised at this point lol

[@CrispyMuffin2]

The thing with the vector is, not only does it FEEL more powerful to play against, but when i first unlocked the gun, i was pretty mid at the game. Usually ending games with 20k, 10d. But when i got the vector, i IMMEDIATELY shot up to the top 5 on my team, i think i went around 47-4 on my first match with it. And that was starting off without even a reflex sights. And that spike never happened with other weapons High skill players use it because they wanna maximize their K/D. Which is what this gun does better than any other weapon. Yeah pros use it and it may just look like it kills you more, but give an inexperienced player the same gun, and you WILL notice an improvement. This monster starts with 40 ROUNDS BY DEFAULT. A 4-5 hit kill at 1200RPM, yeah its nuts. And not only that, it can 100% beam you from across the park at Frugis. It happens all the time on that map What the vector needs is lover the standard mag to 20, reduce accuracy or increase horizontal recoil, maybe even lower the base damage. Cause up close, it's TTK is so fast it might as well be a shotgun at this point. I get killed by it so fast i dont even have time to fix my eyes on the enemy right in front of me

[@garrettshelton5788]

20 is too low, 33 would make more sense as that’s the actual capacity of the typical 9mm big stick. Also need some more vertical recoil to prevent it from reaching out at range.

[@CrispyMuffin2]

@@garrettshelton5788 nah, irl, the gun was built to basically remove the vast majority of vertical recoil, so it wouldn't be a good solution at all. And even then, you just gotta pull down more. Not much of a nerf for an SMG/mimigun hybrid About ammo, 20 rounds is a more realistic config. You can look at the magazine in game and see that its already an extended mag that holds about twice as much as usual, it sticks out so much it cant be a standard mag And for a weapon with that crazy DPS, you SHOULD get punished for using it carelessly. High damage with high risk. Right now, especially with the drum mag, its basically a compressed minigun. It can in theory mow down 8 people before needing to reload, make it 12 with the drum mag And even if you miss half your shots, thats still enough to halt an entire enemy advance without reloading

[@rationalbanana577]

I was an average player with like 30 kills and 35k score at the of games but my first game with the vector I dropped 60 kills and 45k score, the gun is not right rn lmao

[@PlaCerHooD]

Very true. Had the same experience when I unlocked her. Except my ego is small enough to not find any joy in using the gun and dunking on people who simply can't use it yet. So I play less broken weapons

[@ragegaze3482]

@@CrispyMuffin2 The amount of players it can kill with 1 mag is exactly it's problem to me. I don't mind it killing quick, but it should be good in the 1v1 or 1v2 imo, it shouldn't be able to take out your whole squad 1 at a time instantly without any of them being able to punish it for being reckless. It's reload time isn't long either, so it's back up and firing in no time.

[@danford6678]

Every sniper is a point and click one tap if you are not a complete derp. Guns with high armor penetration do nothing to armored targets. If they nerf the vector it will be the p90 people whine about next because its a arguably better version of the vector. Just be thankful most people haven't figured out how to play the engineer well.

[@allstarwoo4]

To the best of my knowledge, armor damage is disabled for balancing reasons.

[@NiceEvils]

How do you play the engi well?

[@SpeedyMckeezy]

I completely disagree... to eliminate a meta does not require every gun to be a carbon copy. Every gun needs to excel/be the best gun to use for certain playstyles. Close, medium, long, recon ranges considered. Fast pace, slow pace, etc. Battlebit has a problem with certain guns being completely useless at every playstyle in comparison to guns that should not excel with certain playstyles. Even weapons that are considered "meta" are effective at most ranges, for most playstyles except a few tricky scenarios where the gun is weak. Vector can never counter-snipe, but can do everything else. The FAL is uniquely effective at close and long range, but is trick to use at medium range. We need guns that are clearly designed to be used at different ranges, or with different mobilities in mind.

[@roxrequiem2935]

To kill a vector we could: Buff armor so low caliber/smaller boolets with weaker velocities deal less damage to normal and even less to heavy. Buff claymores and mines, like amount is limited but they're harder to see and can oneshot light armor. Add more things to deny entrypoints, so players actually use destruction mechanics instead of rushing into boobytrapped/barbwire entrances GIVE US SHOTGUNS. THE SAWED OFF KIND.

[@Zyphyrnix]

Good gunplay and balance is that all the weapons in the pool have an identity and defined dimensions of viability. If a weapon is countered by another, that's one thing. If a weapon is oppressing all other weapons in it's class, and adjacent classes too, that's another. All it would take to reel in a powerhouse like the vector is to reduce is effective range and mag size. 40 rounds base is extremely forgiving.

[@ColinJWiens]

Worst part of the balance is some guns are objectively worse than others in every stat (1/3rd of the snipers and pistols) but I'm stuck grinding attachments for a weapon I'll never have a reason to touch when the better weapon is unlocked. I'd prefer more specialization in those cases. The mk14 is cool because it's worse than other DMRs but has full-auto.

[@Shinnjid]

I just wish the different attachments would be more fleshed out. As of now, there are only like 4 or 5 actual options to be considered, with every other option being quite obviously subpar in all possible stats. What's the point in having this many attachments if only a handful are actually usable? I don't expect for every single attachment to have a specific niche, but at least make some "jack of all trade" options as well that aren't just worse in every aspect than another attachment.

[@ilikeboom100]

Underrated comment, im tried of seeing the unk on almost all my guns

[@CAMIKAZE78]

Yeah the attachments could definitely use some work. I've very conscious of the fact that the team is small and that this would take time, but I agree that more work on attachments would be great.

[@SeteProject]

I think the aimpunch makes this problem even worse. There are many engagements where I shoot someone first, a lot of times I am 1 bullet away from killing them and because they turned around and hit me once or twice the aimpunch throws my 4th shot off and I die immediately after. It doesn't make sense why the aimpunch is so random and why does it favor high ROF? This needs to be adjusted imo... This is especially noticeable with the M249 and the Vector. I've lost count of how many times I lost engagements, where I had all the advantage, because of it. It feels terrible to lose engagements over a stupid RNG mechanic. I have 3.8k kills with the Vector, and I remember quite a few times where I knew I won the engagement simply because I had the Vector, and no it's not my most kills weapon (

[@offan-]

yeah aimpunch is easily one of the worst parts of the game. i'd take being dropshot over this terrible mechanic any day. it's a shame because gunplay feels very smooth otherwise

[@NicholasBrakespear]

Very much agree. The number of times I got the jump on someone, landed a load of shots... only to have them flip around and instagib me is ludicrous.

[@robforskinstein]

SMGs in general should get a velocity nerf and accuracy nerf. They’d still be great up close, but at medium range they shouldn’t outperform 5.56 or 7.62 chambered rifles/ carbines.

[@Av1dd]

a certified camikaze78 classic

[@CAMIKAZE78]

Cheers legend!

[@Deathwhisper2]

TBH I'm more concerned that there are guns which are completely useless. Like ACR is just a worse m4. Famas is laughably bad. Vector just needs a slight accuracy nerf. I'm fine with vector being strong in close ranges. But getting outgunned at 100~ meters by vector just due to amount of flinch, is annoying to say the least.

[@Noah-rm5bu]

Biggest problem to me is the aim punch system. As far as I'm aware it doesn't scale with damage. This gives high fire rate weapons an extremely frustrating advantage in any head on fight. All they have to do is make it scale to the weapon damage.

[@senilodemenzi5739]

The biggest prob IMO is that as a low level player you get constantly f***ed in the face with the vector. I myself put about 30 hrs in the game, I'm lvl 46 I think, I still can't use it myself. It really starts to annoy me. Same with the Groza. To me it feels unfair and frustrating because I'm not able yet to strike back with the same gear.

[@ilikeboom100]

Vector is far worse than the groza. The groza takes a bit to get used to its not vector pick up and play good you have to lead shots to a kind of ridiculous degree with it and you don't get many attachment slots to help with that.

[@arkan5000]

you are so close to getting the groza at 55, i got it 2 days ago and its good

[@SpeedyMckeezy]

I'm not a huge fan of nerfing anything. Some notable assault rifles near the end of the unlock chain badly need buffs. I noticed most guns in this game with good recoil have terrible range, and vice versa. There's a lot to unpack, it's not as easy as just nerfing the vector and calling it a day

[@Karpata1]

As a casual with average aim I don't find the Vector performs much better in my hands than most of the other guns. When it works it's fun but I never go 'this was only possible because I'm using the Vector right now'. I find the Groza to be lacking in most situations I find myself in. Now this is most likely because of the way I play and I don't stick to its niche, whatever it may be, but still something to be considered for balancing. If something only overperforms in the hands of the top 1% is it overpowered? My most successful games are always with the M4A1 and the 'sniper' AK15 build (tab fire with 4x scope). They are the first guns I used and they perform well in all situations. Arguably overpowered in that regard depending who you ask. The Littlebird is absolutely busted in the hands of a skilled pilot but most people will struggle to even get a single kill with it.

[@Just_Lars]

Certain guns just favor certain playstyles. And in the leagues we're talking about here, even the slightest advantage matters. Like, a "normal" player might not even notice a difference between a 1.6 second reload and a 1.4 second reload, while for the people who go all in for hyper aggressive cqc gameplay, this can mean to pick one weapon over the other. Even if, lets say, the recoil is way less predictable than that of the other gun. But thats the thing: I'm okay with getting melted by a smg on short distances. That's what they are there for. But with the Vector you not only have one of the highest fire rates in the game, but together with decent damage, high mag capacity and relatively long damage drop-off, it allows people to slay over distances that shouldn't be working balance wise for a smg. It's not that the Vector is "just" the best weapon of its class (you could argue about this) it's that it shoves its nose into territory it shouldn't belong. Balance-wise, the vector just shouldn't out-perform an assault-rifle at, let's say, distances over 50-60 meters. Because then it becomes a jack-of-all traits and makes assault rifles obsolete to a certain degree. And that is the problem that I personally have with imbalance. It destroys the fun of using other guns, when you have one weapon that basically renders them obsolete in too many scenarios.

[@ilikeboom100]

I've had moments I've gotten away with trash shit with the vector on very little health, if you shoot for the head in close range its fucking stupid how quickly you down people and then you can still complete with people at longer engagements as well even shooting at the body.

[@Thickolas]

I'm just sick to death of being picked off by Vectors at a distance. On an open field an AR should have the advantage at range, but it truly doesn't matter until you're in sniping distance.

[@AtomicNoTwitch]

The Vector is borderline game breaking right now. I counted my deaths from it in a game of frontlines on 127v127 and it was 24/28 deaths to it. the rest was snipers. Its almost insane.

[@eltgk]

cap

[@yillowo]

tbf frontlines is extremely cqc since you are constantly fighting for the same two or three objectives at all times

[@BravenTyler]

I think there needs to be balance throughout, but characteristics of guns that shine more. If someone loves the AUG, why make it crappy, just gives the user a terrible experience. For example, making the M4A1 less damage and making the Scar more damage, one has less fire rate, and other has more. One has slightly more range, one has slightly less, one has slower reload, one has faster, but the result being that both accel nearly the same, just one has different characteristics. These guns don't have that, it's either broken or bad. Battlefield is the closest to balance in an fps shooter, this game is dependent on metas currently, you can't run a successful run with say the pp2000, it's too weak, shoots less firerate than the vector, and less range. Make it nearly zero recoil to combat that. Even add slight bit more headshot multiplier. What about the support class? The LMGs just eat, yet they can carry more armour protection? I mean if they want to hire me as a balance making body I'm all for it, but they really gotta think these things through. Especially snipers. Face it, 127 players and so many are just sniping at range for 1 shot body potential. It's ridiculous. Snipers should have a 1 shot body in close to medium range, rewarding those who have to be flexible. These snipers are utterly useless in close to medium range without a headshot. They said they want to make it more arcadey but keep the milsim factor to it, well, easy answer, some snipers slower chamber time and faster bullet velocity for long range sniping, others are quicker and more agile for aggressive gameplay. You make snipers that suck in cqc, and make snipers that suck at range. It's common sense, but these developers that make games nowadays really aren't qualified to develop balance. It's sad, battlefield is the only game that remotely has some balance properly, and even then they still aren't considered really balanced.

[@soulzy3596]

No . Snipers should not get a 1 shot to the body in medium ranges . Snipers are busted as is dude chill .

[@soulzy3596]

Use a marksman rifle for medium range , sniper for long .

[@TheCobrareaper]

Great points Cami! It's also just really difficult to get the balance right when there are so many guns in the game, but it can be done. I think the best approach is the one the devs are using for the classes moving forward- don't nerf the meta weapons, buff the the rest of the weapons to bring them more in line with the top performers. Yeah the Vector 100% needs a range nerf, but I think the main issue is that there's a HUGE gap between the meta weapons and the other guns in their respective classes. Yes there are decent alternatives to these guns, but using them still puts you at too much of a disadvantage. Battlefield 4 suffered the same problem, where the gap between the meta (ACE 23, AEK, etc) and even the stronger alternatives was still way too high. BF3 on the other hand managed to get it right, where there was a clear meta (M16A3, AEK, M416) but the alternatives were strong enough to hang with them. I mastered every primary in BF3 and can count on one hand how many guns in the WHOLE GAME I found to underperform. I think Battlebit could learn from that.

[@hellraiser2361]

I know you covered all the meta guns. Tbh though there is a lot of good guns in this game that are viable. Some need attachments to be great but still fantastic nevertheless. Like the scar-h the ak15, mp7, mp5 etc. The balance is good just a couple of outliers.

[@ilikeboom100]

Scar h is pretty meta with the lowest recoil 3 shot rifle

[@CAMIKAZE78]

Yeah for sure mate - the weapon balance in the game is generally speaking, pretty bloody good. There just needs to be some nuance in some places and we are getting somewhere.

[@frankthefreedom244]

I would like to see some buff before nerf, there is so many guns that are underperforming (looking at the support class or marksman gun)

[@ericchester9828]

I may be completely wrong, but why not make gun classes completely respondent to operation classes. So only an assault class can get an SMG, and a Medic can only get DMR's, etc. This would help balance the not just the gun META, but also the operation META. If the Medic is the easiest to use because it can heal itself, slow the gun down that it has to use.

[@padnomnidprenon9672]

Smart.

[@NicholasBrakespear]

I mean, that would make sense... but it wouldn't fix the fundamental imbalance of SMGs out-performing ARs at ranges well beyond what anyone could call "CQC"

[@GigaVids]

my first thought is nerf accuracy on the vector but that gives you the feeling of RNG bullets landing, i think its a mix of range too it should be a 45 acp and drop fairly fast at range be accurate and fast hard hitting close but not due to accuracy its becuse big boi lead drops over distance

[@DeyonOttervenBur]

40 round mag by default is also not ok, imo

[@GigaVids]

@@DeyonOttervenBur I'm fine with it but it should have been 30 rd mag base and the ext is 45, no drum. i get vector ships with a special mag but glock mags do work and are used or they wouldnt have added the drum

[@ragegaze3482]

@@GigaVids the ammo capacity is the worst part about it to me as well. It's extremely unpleasant when you watch a vector kill your entire squad with a single mag while also having the fastest kill time. Being able to wipe that many people should be reserved for LMGs. Like what's the point of even using the M249 if the vector can kill a squad in less time, without reloading and safely.

[@GigaVids]

@@ragegaze3482 agreed, should be 30 fast heavy dropping rounds by nature , 45 with unlocks , 60 is something youd see in Chicago because you cant aim

[@nilo1178]

@@GigaVids i remember using vector in ghost recon phantoms. It had 20 rounds mag but it also shredded anyone in CQC but it had rng accuracy over mid range. No one complained about its faster ttk.

[@sukat0]

I would love to see you make a video that takes weapons that are currently viewed as 'bad' by the community and break down a build with your attachments to make the gun more playable. Good videos man, I enjoy the content!

[@jlau317]

I'd rather they buff some of the weaker weapons like the Aug, pp2000, the snipers thar aren't the m200 or L96 etc. I think the game would be in a better spot if there were more weapons with strengths and weaknesses in their categories. Also they should just add shotguns tbh.

[@krazylink]

I feel all smgs should have higher damage drop offs than they do currently shouldn't be able to kill someone 100+m out with just a few bullets from a smg

[@williambencher2466]

They outperform every assault rifle. I'm new but this seems accurate take

[@Lumpyrumpus]

The points made about how in order to destroy the meta youd have to make all guns similar is true but I feel like a middleground is easily possible. In most Battlefield games, there are a large selection of weapons. To use BF4 as a good example theres almost 100 choices. As any class you have a very large selection to choose from. Sure the AEK is the meta for close range for assault, the g18 is the meta for pistols, and the CZ is the best PDW for engi. The difference I notice though, granted this could just be because of TTK differences, is that while they may be the best, theyre not the best by an extreme margin. You can choose other weapons and generally compete. At the moment in Battlebit, the meta weapons generally outplay everything else at most ranges in almost all situations.

[@ALE199-ita]

yeah agreed, the meta should be what you said and not "AA12 Frag rounds pre-nerf" there is an healthy meta and an unhealthy meta.

[@CAMIKAZE78]

Definitely agree with that mate, hence the comments in the video about their being nuance to the game's balance and achieving a far healthier meta :) Cheers for the thoughts!

[@usurparemagnus]

for vector, a default 40 round mag is just too strong for something that fires this fast and this accurate. On top of that, it feels really bad when you start firing on a guy and the guy just whips back and melt you with a vector before you even get them to the bleeding state.

[@true3211]

if you cant kill a guy that has his back turned on you the issue isn't the vector.

[@Algormortis9]

​@@true3211~70% of the time when I kill someone with vector and they complain about it, it has nothing to do with the gun and everything to do with movement and positioning. They weren't even looking at me bc I was flanking or had an angle on them. They don't like the fact they died in 5 bullets even though most weapons can do that anyway & the vector is especially good at that up close.

[@usurparemagnus]

@@true3211 Recently just got to play around with PP19 and I really like the gun so I've been running it for quite a bit, maybe the RPM is the problem. For the most part, if I do catch someone from behind, they are dead. It's the encounters where I catch someone running a vector on their flank that I have a problem with. I have had a fair amount of said scenario happen where I start firing on them first, and they just whip to the side and melt me before I am even able to get them low enough, let alone other scenarios where I run into another player running a vector in sprinting animation. If they are semi-decent they usually stop just when I start firing and guess what? Vector still melts. I'm not saying that I deserve to kill them in these scenario because of the weapon that I choose to use, but vector is clearly way too strong even at distance which is a problem.

[@NicholasBrakespear]

Yup, you'll get people telling you it's a skill issue when you say this kinda thing... but it's true. Because all they have to do is land one shot with their laserbeam - which due to ROF and lower recoil they have a higher chance of doing in a pinch - and your aim is thrown off more than theirs was by you hitting them with a higher calibre weapon. Basically, the moment they swing that laser around, you're done if it touches you.

[@marcomalandac7510]

As someone who is very low skilled and only averages less than 10 kills and 15 deaths a game, the vector is a God send to me, I rarely get into fire fights since my playstyle and personality gravitates more on helping players via reviving and healing but when I do get into fights I always lose. I know people would say "just get gud" but I honestly don't think I'm physically capable of doing whatever it is those 50+ kills players does and even if I do I doubt I would find it satisfying. Since unlocking the vector I'm infinitely enjoying the game more since even if I get into the occassional firefight I actively avoid. I know I have a 50-50 % chance of winning. And yes I know my playstyle is weird. It's slow low on adrenaline and action. I just don't play with other people a lot and gravitated more on single player role playing games which carried over to Battlebit. I'm your career medic, the person who would run in the middle of no man's land to revive you under a hail of bullets.

[@qpqpqpqpqpqpqpqp]

non meta weapons are a good thing in reasonable amounts doing well with a bad gun is a fun challenge i think the main problem is that big magazine sizes are very important in cqc, hence the vector and p90 being meta. im not entirely sure how to fix this

[@ragegaze3482]

lower the mag size...

[@qpqpqpqpqpqpqpqp]

@@ragegaze3482 id prefer reducing reload times of most other weapons to increase uptime wouldnt fix every gun, but would be more fun to play them

[@907Rome]

The vector is the only weapon ive heard people complaining about. Cant be that hard to balance one single weapon. Yes there will be a meta still but it wont be a broken one

[@CAMIKAZE78]

I think that comes down to some very good weapons not being as widely unlocked as of yet. But yes, the meta can be a lot tighter for sure.

[@SpicyPotatoe]

Early on, it was the Groza. Everyone was crying about how OP the Groza was. Give it another rmonth and people will be complaining about the P90. The big problem right now is that the general public aren't playing enough to unlock some of the later level stuff. When people were complaining about the Groza being broken, most players hadn't unlocked the Vector yet. Now a lot of people are reaching that milestone and it's a popular gun. Within the coming weeks the average player will have unlocked the P90 or some other gun like the Glock and it will be broken and complained about just as much as the Vector is now.

[@henjem14]

Good take Cami, I think most people are of the consensus that nerfing the vector at range is the way to go, and that up close it SHOULD perform how it does. A damage drop off over range or velocity drop off over range would do a significant amount to reduce its effectiveness at medium ranges while keeping it ripping at the ranges it should.

[@AngryAlfonse]

The vector is broken, and if you disagree I'm flagging this video for dangerous misinformation

[@sloppypigon]

I played for 5 hours yesterday and 70% of the time I died was from the vector… my problem is also with KZbinrs always promoting what the meta is, then everyone piles on that gun.. same thing happened in warzone, wish people would just play with guns they like rather then what some KZbinr says

[@Andyisgodcky]

The Vector is an obvious standout, it doesn't feel good to die instantly to a weapon that is supposed to take 4 hits to kill you. I know its the nature of lag, but it still FEELS shitty to just drop from fresh spawn to dead instantly and not from a sniper.

[@kevindellatore]

I think that’s partly because the game needs to rework the spawn system. I’ve watched, my teammates could be unsuppressed but I’m not able to spawn, then other times I spawn on them and I’m immediately gunned down by a M249.

[@d4arames792]

i think the vector need nerfs in hers magazine and damage fall off , like , i given her a 10m range falloff because em CQC its dos not gonna make diference but in long range its gonna alot , and make her a 20-ish round gun , but given her a extend mag with more recoil and this kind stuff , making her a more high skill guns but not fully destroying it

[@3Havoc]

Here is my view as an average player the vector has consistently allowed me to engage groups of 3-5 others with a solid chance of taking out a majority of them with minimal risk, while with ARs the risk is significantly more and generally for me more unsuccessful.

[@jackal210]

Also another thing I think is off balance, is the speed you can heal yourself, I think that should be slower than you healing others, this would promote more people healing each other instead of 90% of the lobby running as medics healing themselves. I mean right now it feels like its all medics with vectors and no revives. also there has to be another way to get health, like the supply crate at the main base or something. having to rely solely on medics in the field who only care about healing themselves makes you eventually run as medic so you can heal.

[@mathewbriggs6667]

ngl the argument saying there will alwase be a meta in pvp there for xyz is dumb if thats the case nerf all other wepons give the vector 1400m range 0 recoil and make it do 1000 dmg a shot with a 1000 round mag and a 0.1 sec reload the point people are making is has noting to do with the meta it has to do with the fact that there is only 2 wepons in the game rn and if every one had them unlocked they would be the only wepons ever used the vector and the m200

[@CptKorn]

Youre one of the few people ive seen mention CoF accuracy and how it would allow smgs to still fill their niche without extending into others, thank you for that because IT NEEDS to be said. I honestly think the smgs dominate because of how movement works, class balance, and how 90% of engagements happen below 100m. Most people dont realize just how far away 50m is in this game. Let alone 100m. You see people all the time saying that theyre getting blasted from 100m away and it's more like 40m. I think once other classes like the assault and support get brought up to the medics level people will branch out to more weapons. Theres another video idea for you haha, class balance talks.

[@JonathanARae]

The range in the game is broken. Something that is 150 away is really 50 and there is no bullet drop. That’s why I’m getting killed by 9mm at range all the time.

[@AvocadoAtrocity]

Wait until you discover the scorpion smg 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@wilhelmo9513]

People dont know about the FAL yet. Ssshhhh

[@sessy01]

Thought he woulda leaned on the scar but that thing doesn't fire like a rifle, it fires like a DMR.

[@ilikeboom100]

​@@sessy01 I have no clue how a full auto gun fires like a dmr but okay

[@ilikeboom100]

They do it was everywhere after the val nerf in the playtests.

[@Mellcor]

I don't like ur insistence that it's only high skilled players being drawn to certain weapons when it's a case of correlation not causation, that being only high skilled players have gotten to the point to access said guns. Less skilled players not having access dose not mean they wouldn't use said overturned gun if they had the choice. I really dont like this angle your pushing of "said gun isn't that op, it's just skilled player using it" If skilled players are so skilled, they should be able to do well with any weapon... But they don't, they all use the same small selection

[@GoldyGoldmembers]

Personally I think removing the smg and pdw from the medic would solve the issue with the vector. Now anyone wanting to play sonic fast with the vector/groza can't heal themselves either forcing them to stop and find a medic or die after the first two or three firefights they get into.

[@NicholasBrakespear]

SMGs would still be out-performing ARs at medium range, which is still a fundamental problem. Remove that problem, forcing SMGs into purely CQC, and anyone playing "sonic fast" has to actually get into CQC to dominate - meaning that medium range would have more opportunity to pick them off while they go sprinting along. As it stands, ARs trying to pick off SMG users usually get countered hard by the laserbeam effect; AR takes aim, carefully fires a few shots, compensating for recoil... ...SMG flips around, beams the AR user, AR user's aim goes wild, can't land killing shot, SMG wins.

[@LurifaxDK]

Id rather have them do something about the insane amount of RPG rockets every engineer can have. The explosive spam reminds me of BF3 Metro sometimes.

[@GigaVids]

its more complicated then amount but i agree they used wrong in game most the time

[@rrnate]

I think an interesting way to nerf the rpg would be adding self damaging backblast when firing just in front of a wall or in an enclosed space

[@Algormortis9]

​@cptbennemorgan agreed I think you get too many claymores by default. Most games you get maybe 1 or 2 to cover your flank. Maybe they do that and make it so you can press F to pick them up when you reposition. Tired of dying to random claymores in the grass that were set up 10 minutes ago lol. Also make anti personnel mines taller & wider so they don't clip through stairs / door frames and become basically invisible.

[@lizardhero]

Biggest thing I find annoying is that they 1 shot you with splash damage. I know there's different variants of it with different splash properties, but dying to indirect fire at full health is just lame and unsatisfying. Also promotes explosive spam, and frags are already really strong on top of RPGs since there aren't any grenade indicators

[@GigaVids]

@@rrnate interesting, no team dmg, just self dmg when firing in say a 3m radius of walls/roof

[@diclonius7]

I just want the devs to make the meta guns closer to the rest. Right now guns like the Vector, FAL, etc, are mountains above the average and downgrade guns. I want them to bring the meta guns down to hills over the rest, not mountains. Bring the op guns closer, and you start to get a lot more variety because the difference isn't so massively clear which guns are super op, so people don't feel like they're forced into playing the meta just to compete. They have actual options and variety now.

[@ilikeboom100]

BuT ThEre'S AlWaYs GoNnA Be A MeTA

[@takingday]

I think a nerf to all SMGs velocity plus a little nerf to all there accuracy would go a long way in reducing there effectiveness at range and the vector itself could use a reduction in it's mag capacity to 30 from 40 and the drum could be 45 from 60 that way the pp2000 has a niche as the high mag capacity SMG also the aim punch could be reduced for SMGs slightly since the high fire rate of SMGs on average makes it harsher that other weapon classes.

[@GoDirectly2Jail]

Lol mate I'm sure you're very skilled, but in general the vector isn't the gun of the "skilled player". It's the gun of the sweat lord who isn't having fun unless they're topping the leaderboard and will use every crutch every cheese and every exploit to do it. A skilled player is the one who runs around using high damage high recoil guns and collecting headshots to the point where you swear they're aimbotting. The one who can control the crazy recoil or the high risk of single shot/low ammo weapons to snap off an instant 1tap-2tap headshots every time. The vector is not a high skill gun, it's a "haha gun go brrrrrt" gun. Insane rate of fire, hardly any recoil, laser beam accuracy, and huge magazines. Plus you move faster than anyone else with it. Delete people in close range while also laser beaming at long range with no trade off. It needs to be nerfed into oblivion. Less ammo, less accuracy starting at like 15m, and honestly all smgs as a whole should do less damage against heavily armored players. The rate of fire alone will make it so that the vector will always vaporize players at close range, but if that's the power it has, then it needs to be nerfed into irrelevance for other situations.

[@Accela_cyberia]

This is it. If the Vector doesn't get addressed SOON then players will be abandoning Battlebit in droves mark my words, especially new players who'll get too frustrated before they can even rank further up and unlock other gear. Even I've lost a lot of enthusiasm for this game recently, getting constantly pegged by Vector users it's a complete waste of a person's time. Might as well move on to another game or do other things in your life 🤷‍♂️

[@xLeandroIX]

I saw people already refusing to revive players who use the Kriss Vector. People is getting tired of them even in their own team

[@elementalterror]

My main issue with the current meta is that there are weapons that push out entire categories of weapons. My main gripe is that, because the M4 is in the state that it is in, there's no reason to not use it. Yeah the FAL might have the better theoretical TTK. But with the heavy barrel, the M4 has 4 shots to kill against 125 health, the same shots to kill to the torso the FAL has. This at basically best in class recoil stats too

[@FreeFragUK]

There are certainly some balance issues at the moment and there are areas for improvement. It is also worth bearing in mind that there are major gaps in terms of weaponry availability/rank gain/options. There is also still the elephant in the room regarding class balance issues.

[@IcarusErm]

Thank you so much for the pragmatic approach to this conversation.

[@CAMIKAZE78]

Cheers mate.

[@tiramisu8924]

I usually play 127 vs 127 and there are so many chokepoint battles with so many players where it doesnt matter what guns people are using. the lower the amount of players in a match the more you feel the balance issues of the game.

[@scoobydoobers23]

Are there other game modes?😂

[@austinkamp8048]

Same here, man. Half the fun of the game personally is the larger battles where it's impossible for just a few players to make a significant difference and where more teamwork is required to win.

[@Mochachocakon]

There needs to be a recoil pass on the weapons for sure, easy laser beams just aren't fun to play or die to in the long term. Still, quite a lot of viable options though. I think the balance is still in a pretty good spot for a release state. I frequently forget this game is early access.

[@ilikeboom100]

A lot of the guns have really fucking horrid horizontal recoil that id like to see changed

[@CAMIKAZE78]

Yeah agreed that for an Early Access game built by 3 people, the balance is actually pretty impressive.

[@Krymms]

Vector or SMGs in general also need to do less flinch imo.

[@CAMIKAZE78]

Agreed.

[@BradBordessa]

It's the musician that makes the instrument sing. Skill > "balance". I super suck at BB, but I'm aware that's a me problem. I forfeit my opinion to the better player who will shred me with the worse gun every time. It's fine to discuss these things, but I like the fact that I have so much improvement to look forward to. I'd rather learn to be the person who shreds because I'm better with a worse gun than have the life "balanced" out of the game. Love your C4 work.

[@CAMIKAZE78]

Interesting perspective mate, thanks for sharing!

[@NicholasBrakespear]

As a matter of principle? Yeah, sure, skill > balance. But in terms of good game design? No. The fact that someone who is skilled CAN defeat a weapon with better performance, doesn't mean that's a good state of play. To use your own metaphor - the fact that a skilled violinist can technically compensate for a missing E string, by playing further up the A string? Doesn't mean the E string shouldn't be replaced.

[@BradBordessa]

@@NicholasBrakespear Well, yeah, of course. I'm not saying don't change anything. That E-string is important! I think the core of what I was getting at is to let more experienced players make these calls instead of letting the noobs with pitchforks get their way because they're the squeaky wheel.

[@kulusic1]

while the vector is certainly a teir above the rest, the entire smg category is a problem. And the real reason is because of the map layouts. Large amounts of ground to cover with visual obstructions everywhere makes it so that engagements are usually under 70m, so you end up running into smgs 1v1 where you're at a disadvantage. When you're holding a position, or playing frontline smg's aren't a problem, it's the running around and map layout that makes them busto.

[@NicholasBrakespear]

I'd say the map layout isn't the main reason, but it certainly exacerbates things. The real issue with the SMGs is that they're more effective at medium range than ARs. The cluttered overly-covered map layout just means that CQC players only ever have to dip into medium range - where they still dominate - and never have to expose themselves to longer range attacks. At 50m, SMGs shouldn't dominate an AR; that kinda approach to balancing only works if you're genuinely going for a realistic milsim where every individual bullet is potentially lethal and you can't sprint forever, and you can't ninja-parkour through the map. In a less-than-realistic title like this, the weapons need to be firmly entrenched in their respective category - SMG should be less effective at 50m+, and all but useless at 100m. ARs should dominate from 50m+, but suffer drop and damage reduction before they reach sniper distances, their hipfire accuracy should be laughably bad, but their crouched and prone recoil should be lower. And yeah, there should be a lot less cover between major objectives; more exposed spaces to punish the reckless and reward the cunning.

[@Vyxtopher]

Very much enjoyed your grounded take on weapon balancing and I couldn't agree more.

[@CAMIKAZE78]

Cheers mate, very kind.

[@Killoer]

This issue always comes about with FPS games having many choices in categories; especially PVP. Any weapon that is a clear cut above the rest in performance will become meta, to the groaning of others just wanting to not sweat and run more casual. Battlefield had many versions (Aek, Type 2A, Automatico Trench) - where weps with very low ttk reigned surpreme. Balance will def be difficult to juggle, but with devs as passionate as battlebit, Im pretty sure theyll tune up weapons that need them. I just hope they dont nerf weapons to oblivion, like some devs opt to do as soon as a weapon is deemed "OP"

[@lapisaconite3120]

I think the best solution would be to reduce vector's accuracy, because it is normal to have a large amount of damage for the smgs, since it is rather for close distances. But what is not normal for the smgs is to have the close degree of accuracy as the m4, because my brain explodes every time I find myself killed with spray from a vector at a distance at which, in principle, it should not bother me.

[@Just_Lars]

I advocate more for a reduction in standard-magazine size (maybe 30, or even 25 at default) so higher capacity comes at the cost of a slower reload. Alternatively, slow down the reload period by like 0.4 or 0.5 seconds so people are encouraged to pull back after 1 or 2 kills instead of just speed-loading and continuing their spree.

[@BIazendraco]

Balancing out of the window, the vector is probably best represented in battlebit, closest to its irl counterpart. It was designed to have very low recoil and high fire rate. It would even be weird to give it more recoil.

[@Lacrete74]

It think it's a problem when used with the medic class, being able to heal yourself while having this kind of firepower

[@k9turrent]

Personally, I think if you balance the vector to higher recoil, make it so that the in game model is running without the stock.

[@trolologuy02]

It really needs to have a drastic damage dropoff, as other short barreled SMGs should have. They fire pistol cartridges, and especially the Vector famously firing a .45 ACP cartridge. While it hits hard, it is large, heavy bullet that travels really slow in terms of muzzle velocity. That also goes to the idea of armor and it’s effect on incoming damage, all bullets shouldn’t be treated equally. Pistol cartridges like 9mm and .45 ACP are less effective against armor, but pistol calibers like 5.7x28mm (P90) and 4.6x30mm NATO (MP7) are specifically designed for armor piercing, and will punch through what rifle cartridges can. I hope in the future they make armor more “passive” or even dynamic, like ceramic armor breaking after a few rifle hits, and different calibers interact differently with different levels of armor.

[@nicolasparadis9119]

If the goal is to have guns with different characteristics, the Kriss Vector could be more like the real one in terms of stats. The real one has a 21 magazine size, with an extended 25 magazine size option. NOTHING NEAR the 40 and 60 BattleBit proposes. I would love to see a quick 21 mag and an 25 mag. The real one has the super V recoil mitigation system that limits the muzzle climb, so it should have one of the lowest vertical recoil.

[@reallydontlikethem]

The 9mm vector takes glock magazines. Factory glock 9mm magazines hold up to 33 rounds in the case of the G18 magazine. KRISS has a custom floor plate for glock magazines that expand their capacity to 40 rounds. You're thinking of the 45 vector and even then your numbers are a little off if you're talking about factory glock mags, which are 13 round capacity standard. In the case of the 45 vector, KRISS has a 30 round floor plate for the 45 ACP glock 21 magazine.

[@k9o3w]

The SMGs need rebalance in general. The range is extreme for a small caliber SMG. Damage drop off and accuracy at range are usually used as a balancing method to keep them from dominating outside their intended usage like they are now. You seem to operate under the idea that the main reason people are annoyed with the vector is the close quarters combat, but if you look at the average engagement from it, it exceeds 25 meters. That is well outside the idea of CQB and start pushing on the extent of a pistol cal SMG. Yes, it should win fights consistently in CQB. What it should not be fucking doing is dominating in the assault rifle ranges of 25-75m and outright beating them on accuracy and damage output. If the snipers are capable of doing more damage the longer the shot, then the inverse is capable in the engine and damage drop off can be implemented and probably already is to keep most pistols from being OP and just dominating as a whole.

[@NicholasBrakespear]

Very much this, so much this. This is exactly the problem; people often try to dismiss or mitigate complaints about the SMGs on the basis that they should dominate in CQC. Yeah, they should. But 100m out? That's not CQC. 200M? That's really, really not CQC. That's a laserbeam. The issue isn't CQC, it's a CQC weapon dominating outside of CQC. I would say the optimal balancing path for the entire SMG category would be - highly range-driven bloom, with SMGs effectively becoming spray and pray at 50m+, and at 100m damage dropoff. Also think armour should be a significant counter to SMGs and pistols.

[@swat4eto]

The animal you were thinking of is a hydra, not a snake. The hydra regrows its heads, but yes, still a valid point. ^_^

[@Folly_Inds]

on a less pessimistic suggestion, adding bullet deviation over distance or armor reduction were suggested by someone I saw once. most small caliber rounds should be *awful* at damaging armor.

[@NicholasBrakespear]

Yeah, these are sensible suggestions for sure. Cone-shaped blooming on SMGs would make sense; easy to calibrate so that they're still death lasers in CQC, but immediately drop-off to spray and pray at medium. If this were coupled with armour reduction - especially relative to distance and calibre - it would create a really nicely balanced set of weapons, with CQC players forced to actually figure out how to get into CQC reliably when they don't own the medium range too.

[@angerskarin9222]

They need to lower all smg damage drop to like 70 meters and increase their spread at range, an smg firing pistol rounds shouldn't do more damage then an assault rifle, they also need to lower the AR range, I seen way to many AR just kill sniper at 400 meters +

[@NicholasBrakespear]

Basically, they need to add a big damage drop based on range - SMG should become less effective at 50m, ARs should drop at maybe 200, marksman rifles should be the next step up etc.

[@michaelmiles1812]

In my opinion they just need lower the damage from 24 to 20 or 21. It already shoots at around 1200 rpm. We already have guns like the glock 18 that does 17 damage and has 1100 rpm and that thing is extremely effective at close range as well.

[@CAMIKAZE78]

Interesting suggestion - would essentially limit the TTK against heavier armours but keep the status quo for unarmoured targets. Could see that potentially working.

[@AWPtical800]

To the point of removing the vector: The real issue is that it's a nightmare to balance. You have a gun built around .45 ACP -- normally seen as a big-boy high-damage caliber -- and it spits those out at 1200rpm with minimal recoil. My solutions to the problem (mix and match to your choosing): - add a separate damage model for armor, and make that damage model for all SMGs awful. - remove access to the magazine slot. No more extended mags, no more fast mags, no more drums. If you want to take it further, reduce the magazine size further. - If bullet gravity and velocity are a thing, make those big boi bullets drop like rocks.

[@Cerebrums]

I care more about the RPG and Nade spam then the current weapon balancing situation.

[@kevindellatore]

Made spam is only a real problem on wakistan, and that’s by nature since everyone runs right into a massive choke point. Wakistan sucks as a map anyway, people need to start picking different maps

[@linkster5564]

I'd say nerf the accuracy on the vector and probably all SMGs. I don't mind if I get ripped apart by the vector up close, that's what it's supposed to do. My issue is getting ripped apart at AR or greater range.

[@Crawzitow]

The main strenght for the vector in my opinion besisdes the fast time to kill is the ability to multikill, either for the fast reloads or massive magazine. Its the same streght of the medic class. With other classes and weapons after 1 kill you are out of bullets and bleeding. So you are likelly dead 1 for 1. With the vector and now the glock also i can usually get 4-5 kills before dying or going back to cover. If i play medic i can go for even dber engages or zooming arround. It feels in another level. The worse part is that the big magazine feels sooo good. I hate the tiny magazines and the vector is one that can use it eithout many downsides.

[@bennyb.1742]

Devs: Makes crazy deep but also accessible game with dozens of viable play styles, classes and weapons with huge maps, great vehicles and big team tactics Sweaty player base: Plays only Domination, cutting basically every unique aspect from gameplay so they can Medic+Vector harder.

[@lapisaconite3120]

In voting for the mode at the end of the match, in 99 out of 100 cases, anything wins, but not domination. And finding a 127x127 map with the domination mode in server list is problematic in most cases. And it pisses me off, because I'm exactly the kind of person who constantly wants to play domination, but I can't, because no one wants to except me.

[@Just_Lars]

@@lapisaconite3120 I tried to play the 32vs32 mode with domination. Might as well rename it to "Rush 24/7" so I get you there ^^° On the other hand, I have the feeling it depends A LOT on the time of day and even more so the region from where you are connecting. I know that here in germany many people who play BBR strongly favor smaller player numbers over large ones, and game modes around pushing forward like Rush over those based on Attack/Defending like Domination or frontlines. What I wanna say is, that the experience with finding a certain game mode can differ greatly from player to player.

[@bennyb.1742]

@@lapisaconite3120 I actually agree with you, in this case to my own benefit lol. There was a crazy rash of Domi 24/7 when EA first launched but Con seems to be most common now. What they need is a better server browser thing, or Quick Join that filters by mode. That would make us both happy.

[@billymadgehooper3053]

i think something to consider too is battlebits scale working to aid balance, as the ability to engage enemies over an enormous range of distances certainly favours the use of more weapons. i think something that can make the devs job of balancing easier is attenpting to stretch out engagement distances or make them more varied, although i don’t have a clue how you’d do that without sacrificing the core “arcade” aspect of the game which allows it to be approached by anyone rather than ur standard tactical shooter enjoyers

[@NicholasBrakespear]

Agree, but I'd say - one way to do this is to remove some map clutter. As it stands, it's possible to move from one side of the map to the other... in cover. Basically, never leaving CQC environments. If there were big no-man's land regions between certain objectives - big open spaces, or at least more open than they were before - it would be harder for people to rush into close combat, thus giving medium range a time to shine, picking off people who are trying to dash from one place to another.

[@ryank3210]

Vector bullet damage should just plummet after like 75m. Keep the current profile out to 50-60m with maybe a slight taper off, then a steep drop from 75-125 so that by 125-150m it's like a 10-15 shot kill instead of 4 or 5. Combined with a slight accuracy nerf, a damage at range adjustment could help push aggressive and talented players toward other options. If the vector was a squirt gun at 150m, I would have to think people would hesitate to use it in every situation.

[@i_boole6639]

The thing is, meta's arn't static, they evolve. If you know what the current meta is, you can devise a strategy that takes advantage of meta by countering the meta. That's how meta's evolve.

[@CAMIKAZE78]

A very solid take.

[@cj292]

My two cents is have the standard glock mag of 19 rounds as standard and move the 40 round one to the extended mag positions. I'm fine with the vector winning a 1v1 close range engagement but it shouldn't be able to wipe nearly a whole squad with a single standard mag.

[@TimothyVDWoude]

cool video again love your weapon skin

[@bjblaskowicz]

I agree with your vector accuracy thing as imo its realistic and would keep the gun useful. As someone who has over 800 kills with the p90 i dont think it should be nerfed. Its a mp5 with more recoil and a big magazine, its great for close range flanking but outside of this neiche its outclassed by most guns.

[@m9squirrels282]

I think there is an element of personal preference too. I know a ton of ppl shit in the honey badger but it’s one of my favorite guns so….

[@phoenixrose1995]

damage fall off range should happen sooner, to keep this weapon as a CQB type weapon. an SMG should NEVER beat an AR at medium to long range fights. and right now the vector can easily do that another alternative method would be to increase the amount of bullets the vector needs for a kill considering how fast the thing shoots. 4 shots to kill can happen quite literally in less than half a second. so maybe make it 5 bullets to kill or something. but damage fall off range is the best nerf option i feel like

[@NicholasBrakespear]

Yeah I'd agree. Simple damage falloff would enforce and delineate weapon categories - SMGs would dominate under 50m due to speed and potential for rapid spray, ARs would dominate from like 30m to 100m, marksman rifles would dominate 100-300, with snipers at the top. You'd get a nice rotation then, with CQC being countered by longer range, and longer range being flanked and smoked etc. Would create much more interesting battlefield flow, with a constant parry and riposte, instead of "I have a laserbeam. Do you have a laserbeam?"

[@pancakes8816]

My idea for the Kriss is to make it a true CQB gun. Make it so that at long range distances, the bullets bloom too much to hit, say a sniper, but still accurate close range. So that it keeps its close range shredding ability and loses its sniping quality

[@NicholasBrakespear]

This is my suggestion too - but I'd say, do it to all the SMGs to a varying degree. To ensure their proper role, bloom the hell out of them so that ARs are always more accurate at medium range+, with a bit of an overlap. Like, lowest end of "medium range", bit of bloom on SMGs, still possible to reliably land hits. But any further into medium range, and they should be out-performed.

[@just_cody3569]

When im getting domed by the vector at 100 meters while im using the scar in a head to head duel, that says alot about it. Im no pro, but i was landing my shots, i just couldnt get enough down range before i was torn apart by a cqc weapon. It just doesn't feel good to die to it like that. I can bitch about getting headshot at 1000m by a sniper, but thats fair, and good on the gunman.

[@Underground3]

So how long are they gonna add in the AEK-971 so we will have the Duo of tryhard weapons?

[@KonradTombling]

good vid i feel bad for the new people playing and getting destroyed by the vector and guns like that

[@CAMIKAZE78]

New players are always going to be destroyed by _some_ weapons, but the gap should probably be a little tighter for sure.

[@pliskin100]

The vector is so obviously broken it's a wonder they even released it in it's current form. It's a laser point buzzsaw where I land 95% of my shots up to 200m

[@cdgncgn]

Pistol rounds are not laser beam accurate at 100 m IRL. Velocity drops, bullets spread out more. When going subsonic from supersonic any sort of accuracy is out of the window.

[@GigaVids]

1) fire rate changing mods 2) damage modified ammo AP/FMJ/HOLLOW , the tuneability will level it all out

[@jaywerner8415]

When it comes to BattleBit's Weapon balance, its MOSTLY FINE but their are some adjustments that really do need to be made. One thing that must be said, MOST Gun Fights take place anywhere between ZERO and 200 Meters. First and formost, the SMG CLASS as a whole: SMGs most notable traits are LOW (virtually none for practical purposes) Recoil, generally have Mid to HIGH fire rates, and varying amounts of Bullet Velocity (UMP.45 has 600 while the MP7 has 350). Even if SMGs have low bullet velocity, they put more lead down range and are EASY to keep on target. (effectively out DPSing Assault Rifles and are easier to use at range) All SMGs are effective out to 100meters. 100 meters in BattleBit is MID RANGE, farther then one would expect a SMG to be effective. As a result, SMGs is MOST GUNFIGHTS will out preform Assault Rifles. The VECTOR PROBLEM is due to the fact it has a blazingly high fire rate, basically no recoil and seemingly just kills your INSTANTLY. And due to 100meters being a very Common shooting range, it WILL out dps most ARs because it just goes BRRRRT. Second and one thing that isn't really talked about much, DRMs are kinda underpowered (they are good, but you can do the same thing with an Assault Rifle). They have the opposite problem SMGs Do. The Most notable traits of DRMs are: High Damage, Harsh Recoil. While you can "spam fire" DMRs, the KICK from doing that is HARSH! Meanwhile you can do the same thing with an Assault Rifle in Semi auto mode and have LESS RECOIL. Like the Scar H is probably more effective then the MK20 at the same distance, in semi auto mode obviously.

[@newrecru1t]

_"The easiest thing is to smooth out anything that's too different from everything else. Make things more and more homogeneous until it's fair. Yeah that's one approach, but it makes things boring because you're losing out on the fun asymmetry is supposed to offer. The harder way is to try to preserve as much asymmetry as possible AND to make it fair. When we do things the hard way, the good way, it doesn't make things boring. Furthermore, balanced just means the matchups are fair. It doesn't say anything about the dynamics of how interesting the game is. A balanced game could be boring or interesting and if you had a really interesting game, it's better if it's balanced well than if it isn't."_ *~David Sirlin*

[@DreadNought0255]

Here's my hot take: I miss the times when games like these had limited, faction specific arsenals. I have fond memories of BF2142. The SCAR11 and the Krylov, EU and PAC AR's respectively, had unique visual and audio when firing, adding clarity to the overall battle situation. And they were different in stats but they occupied the same bracket. SCAR11 had a slower fire rate but higher damage then the Krylov but the difference wasn't so great as to relegate one or the other to vastly different range or role braket. You got into specializations with unlockable weapons and there was a LIMITED number of those. Two, to be exact. The LAR and the HAR, a close range bullet hose and a long range battle rifle respectively. A limited arsenal allows for greater distinction and specialization with better handle on balance. Games these days (I am now officially a boomer, it seems) just unload a deluge of "weapons" for the player to use. A sea of shinies to unlock where I'd wager a whole three quarters are basically just reskins of one another. Any difference in performance being lost in the inefficiencies of the player's humanity. Enter Mechanicus quote: here. The rest one quarter is divided between a small handful of objectively great weapons where the mechanics and stats just make them superior to the rest in a measurable way and the majority that are objectively just bad. Using them is giving yourself a handicap. So you end up in a situation where these great weapons get used by your average (or bellow) skilled player because they want to compete but since there is no detriment for high skill ceiling players to using these easy weapons then these easy weapons become god-tier.. Being a score piniata just for the top scorers is not fun, no mater how you slice this cake and the top scorers are not going to handicap themselves by using less efficient weapons. Some players have that smidgen of honor, sportsmanship or just empathy in them to move off the meta kit but that is a miniority within a miniority's miniority. There's this irony where the better you are, the more tools you unlock to be better. Better weapons and unlocks to make those weapons better. And the argument "Oh that Kryss user is eventually going to die to an ironsight AK74 newbie, so no worries." falls flat to me because yeah, they are; after cutting through half a squad or more. As for the current SMG/PDW meta; AR dealing less damage then an SMG or PDW just ruffles me in all the wrong ways. I accept that this should be the case in terms of unarmored targets. Bigger bullet, purpose and all that. Other then limited ammo availability and a drastic drop in damage to all close range weapons over range, the third option I can come up with is a two-stage cone of fire. The bullets start off in a tighter cone like now and then past some distance they just veer off course drastically. Think of it as "losing stability". Since the revoil is minimal the CoF should be bigger but not so much as to be weird, but this can result in a "long range laser". So it starts off sensible and past the expected efficient range, you just can't hit shit. Added mechanic would be that the first bullet in a burst wouldn't have this, giving more reasons to use semi-auto fire in general and it's not a generalised "bullets vanish past 50m" situation. It's not impossible to land hits over range but boy should it be like pulling teeth. Also such weapons could have reduced effectiveness against body armour. So their greater damage value comes to play close range against soft targets but it takes 2x more bullets to break through medium and more then that for heavy and exo then it would with rifles. Usually these weapons have higher rates of fire and as far as I know body armour can't be repaired, this gives heavy armour players who are slower more time to react and represent a wall to slam against for the speedy run-n-gunner.

[@cdgncgn]

if they did RL ballistics, velocity drop, subsonic going tumble, that would give balance. Achieving balance means achieving realistic results.

[@DreadNought0255]

@@cdgncgn But now think about the logistics of that. From what the devs have said, the servers are basically holding on by a string because the netcode they made up was the best they could do (three guys) and they weren't expecting this big of a reception. And Valve isn't giving them their cut of the sales until september and if they don't get a loan, they'll go broke. So rather then going full-hog and engineering new math into the servers and new tech, all of which can and WILL go horribly wrong; they instead use the features and mechanics already in the game (Cone of Fire, damage drop off, armor) to balance weapons through said mechanics.