The Heavy Problem in Platform Fighters

[@Shireke01]

You know what tilts me? Most ultimate heavies could also be like this if they were faithful to their source material Ganondorf could thow arround giantic magic attacks, teleport, usa a huge trident to keep enemies at a distance Donkey Kong could use barrels for recovery and setting traps around, or his coconut shotgun (if he shoots ya its gonna hurt) Idk it would just be so, so cool and also a better representation of their own games

[@shampoogoblin4865]

That doesn’t exactly sound fun though does it

[@Shireke01]

@@shampoogoblin4865 As a ganon main having to deal with online toon link and sonic, having a way to reflect their bullshit back at them or slap them with some magic would be A LOT of fun

[@shampoogoblin4865]

Shireke01 oh ya I feel you man I Main falcon. I’m just saying the way you describe it you seem to want heavy zoners lmao that does not sound like a fun time

[@dogtime7061]

​@@shampoogoblin4865 Do you disagree with the video then?

[@Eichro]

I think giving DK projectiles would really ruin his design.DK's really designed as a brawler all the way. Bowser and Ganon really could use some midrange projectiles tho

[@CasualScrub]

This is an incredibly high quality video for such a small channel, props to you man.

[@htwo1]

Thanks! I just assumed if you wanna grow an audience you want it to be as high quality as possible right from the start.

[@exkuhpid]

@@htwo1 It's working, just subscribed.

[@supernova3241]

Htwo you have got a new sub. This video has such high quality for what it is. Props to you.

[@lukemoses7827]

Htwo - Game Design ye this was extremely well made and I loved it

[@aquashame]

i just got this in my recommended. it’s a nice video.

[@NoshuHyena]

Bowser in Ultimate also fixes the problem by just not being slow in the first place.

[@ninjacell2999]

@June it's an improvement for bowser

[@netherlim]

@June Bowser is a very bad design. He is an easy to pick character with no depth and can run at fox's speed, while being the heaviest character in the game. He is literraly a noob fighter, but as nothing from a heavy gameplay

[@milesandrews6711]

@@netherlim I still prefer that over playing melee bowser at least he's viable

[@NCozy]

Nah he really isn't. I play Bowser and I don't think he's that good if you know anything about the bowser matchup. His disadvantage is terrible, he gets comboed easy and edgeguarded easy. He relies too much on having one of the best out of shield options in the game because the rest of his kit isn't that good. P+ does Bowser way more justice

[@marcossegon5433]

@@NCozy edgeguarded easily depends on the matchup, pichu has only one tool to consistently edgeguard bowser and it is really hard to land in the first place No, its not tjolt, its thunder, because up b breaks tjolts

[@bukler3934]

Great video, honestly I admire the rivals of aether devs for being so brave with their character playstyle designs. Characters moves literally change the stage, how you or them approaches you and gives much more meaning to the term "platform" in platform fighter by making everyone have a say in how they influence the platforms they fight on

[@drago5819]

Should mention snake from ssb brawl. Accidentally a good heavy, because they changed his model size to be smaller near the end of development, but didn’t have time to change his hitboxs’ size.

[@marin9412]

he was basically a non-heavy character with all the advantages af heavies

[@live2die694]

Project M has a lot of viable heavies too. Bowser is one of the slowest character's in the game, but he has explosive combos and easy kill confirms. DK is complete combo food but he has decent speed, good disjoints and also amazing kill confirms and combos. Dedede has a trash combo game but he has massive disjoints, projectiles, quick burst movement and good invincibility frames. Charizard has insane mobility and damage output and Ike has insane movement and easy kill confirms

[@mr.yologamer2612]

I do understand your points about smash but it's not %100 accurate. Bowser is pretty quick for heavyweights and he is the heaviest character in the game. I consider him the best super heavyweight in smash ultimate because he has good combos, kill confirms, easy ways to rack up damage and the 2nd best OOS in the game. Everything starts to go downhill from here though. Every Super Heavweight's flaw is that they are combo food, that air movement/acceleration isnt that good, and all of their recoveries are super linear. DK's recovery is his biggest flaw and the nerf to grab games/combos from smash 4 to smash ultimate hurt him alot. Dedede's projectile can literally get deflected by a weak hit and doesn't have a lot going for him. This list could keep going but heavies in smash need alot more going for them if they have such significant flaws. (P.S I love playing heavyweights like Ganon, Bowser and Dk but just opted out to play Snake cause it just feels sooooo good to play a top tier character that doesnt have any major flaws)

[@mr.yologamer2612]

Also there is a difference between Heavyweights and Super Heavyweights. Heavyweights are characters like Snake ,Ike and Piranha Plant while Super Heavyweights vary from Bowser to Incineroar.

[@Rylopero]

If you look at the comment i left above, i mention a big thing being frame data. It's not necessarily that heavies in Smash dont have good hitboxes or projectiles, it's that most of these moves are extremely unsafe. Those that have safe out of shield options or pressure tools that are safe on shield are more likely to be viable, like Bowser with up b having good frame data (quick startup)

[@channiefrompie]

@@mr.yologamer2612 the comment was about project m, not ultimate.

[@live2die694]

@@channiefrompie ik right?

[@konakami7066]

This video got me into rivals of aether and I've been playing for a full year. Rivals is an amazing game, and im glad I saw this video when it was released. Thank you

[@CerealSSBU]

And then there was workshop :0

[@infernate4067]

Honestly, I'd much rather baby rage as rivals of aether than smash. I just get wrap my head around the bad movement in smash ultimate. Rivals of aether offers me a better transition from traditional fighters to platform fighters.

[@amingo9100]

Im too lazy to check, does it requires a lot to run it?

[@00ooo000o]

FuckOff owo nah, you can turn down the graphical effects too. just make sure you have decent internet please.

[@Dittachu]

Wow, when clicking on this video I did not realise it was from such a small channel! You deserve way more attention

[@safir2241]

nice pfp. i can't wait for silksong

[@Dittachu]

I'm so excited for it!

[@UltraSnacks]

Loved it! Very articulate, to the point, and easy to understand. Dan and the RoA team absolutely killed it with the heavy design. I fell in love with Kragg within the first hour of my first time playing and never looked back.

[@quantum6637]

I think people overstate how bad being slow is. It is a weakness just like any other such as a lack of range. The problem with heavies like melee Bowser and Brawl Ganondorf is that they get almost nothing good in exchange for being slow. They deal less damage than others due to little combos, they have worse recoveries, they have slower moves, those moves have more end lag, and they take more damage due to size/weight. The only thing they get is kill power but even then they are worse at edgeguarding and don’t have amazing kill conversions like Melee Fox has.

[@heelsushi2734]

DK, Ganondorf and Bowser has always been slow and pretty bad characters throughout Smash's titles. Bowser's and DK's buffs in Smash 4 (speed and stupid grab game) had made them very strong characters; in Ultimate, Bowser has a weaker grab game, but his options and changes to jumpsquat improved his gameplay and he's still a popular character in top level play. DK has been nerfed significantly, he still has decent speed and a good grab game, but he can't catch up as well. Ganondorf however, has rarely been changed mechanically and is still considered a bottom tier character ever since Brawl (literally last place in both Brawl and Smash 4).

[@BlueSunStudios1]

@@heelsushi2734 An unfortunate consequence of Sakurai and Nintendo being loathe to change the game too much for players who are used to how the characters played in their debut appearances and Nintendo not in any way wanting to make Smash a technical tournament title at all, neither of which I really fault them for but they are trying to compromise too much without fully committing to it (I beg you not to conflate technical tournament play with "competitive" which seems to be interchangeable in the fighting game community). Smash never was designed as a highly technical tournament-geared fighting game like other traditional fighting games are like Street Fighter, Fatal Fury, Tekken, etc., and Nintendo seems deadset on keeping it that way decades later and likely beyond. On the more technical side, one thing people also seem to confuse together is that "source material = high viability" which is a false equivalent. It would not matter if Ganondorf was depicted as a sort of swordwielding warlock like he is usually depicted if the way he is designed in the game made him underperform compared to other characters. You could give him a sword or a trident with magic and still make him slow and weak with impotent magic attacks. The short of it is that the game gives the fast and combo-heavy characters too much in a community that is geared towards mindsets that want to rush in and quickly take stocks as easily as possible compared to giving slower and heavier characters ways to counter that in any reliable manner. If I were to buff Ganondorf while retaining his slow, projectile-less, and low comboable gameplay, I'd give him some sort of way to mitigate the threat projectiles pose to him, give him some armor to withstand more hits similar to either Bowser or Kazuya (who, despite being lighter, somehow gets universal armor while Ganondorf doesn't), and simply make his moves hit that much harder and further in exchange for not having many if any real combos to work with.

[@phyvo]

I noticed you showed Ridley being comboed by Pikachu while talking about how weight doesn't help. I think your sentiment is somewhat true but on the other hand Ridley isn't that heavy. Samus is heavier. Plant is heavier. Ridley is tied with human characters like Ike, the belmonts, and Wario. Snake and R.O.B. are literally one weight point underneath Ridley. No, the number 1 culprit for Ridley's disadvantage state is not his weight but his size. Not that there aren't other factors but size really makes a huge difference. Honestly I think Rivals has two big advantages when it comes to heavy balance. Firstly, Rivals has a small and focused cast. This let the devs focus on making every character different while limiting the need for playtest time. Secondly, Rivals has a philosophy of characters creating zones of advantage and/or traps on the stage. There isn't a character in the game that doesn't have some kind of trap, area based buff, or projectile. This leverages a major strength of platform fighters which is that, well, there are multiple platforms and various areas that players want to control. It also balloons the design space a dev has for rounding out characters. Honestly it's pretty amazing when you compare all the varied ways that RoA characters interact with the stage and create zones with what you get in Smash.

[@Calebanton]

Is not that they’re literally heavy, it’s that they fit the archetype of being big, slow, and bad in disadvantage. Ridley's air dodge is slow, he’s slow, big, and a fast enough faller to where he gets comboed like a heavier character. He’s A HEAVY, but he’s not actually super heavy

[@Mystravian]

Belmonts wario, snake and ROB are all considered heavy.

[@Mystravian]

Smash has heavy and super heavy as the way to split up some of the incredibly heavy from just the heavyish

[@Calebanton]

@@Mystravian I know. I was commenting on the archetype of heavies. Wario, snake, and rob are anything but heavies

[@kholdkhaos64ray11]

I don't think the "Heavy problem" is a problem distinct to platform Fighters. Other fighting games give heavies those weaknesses too. Zangief and Potemkin from their fighting games share the same weaknesses, but the devs normally give them moves and abilities to at least somewhat counter or mitigate other playstyles (banishing flat, Hammerfall, projectile reflects, one or two quick moves, invincible or armored moves, etc). Smash heavies are just generally badly designed since they don't have much to contest other character's styles even though Ultimate's the best version of this archetype for this series.

[@Zonda1996]

Melee Ganon is almost an exception to this rule, too. Excluding Fox and Sheik matchups he has a reasonable tool kit. He makes up for a lot of his weaknesses in the punish game department, to the point where all he needs to be viable is realistic shield pressure options and a way to somewhat negate being gimped by Spacies/Sheik. Easily the most satisfying character to play when you win neutral, but laser camping, wave shining and needle pressure can definitely make you wanna quit playing sometimes.

[@iFuryfy]

Great video to put a spotlight on a dev team that seems to be revolutionizing the genre more and more. Thanks and keep it up!

[@raincastmusic]

Bowser: *Im The Fastest Heavy Therefore I Am Not One*

[@nekosaiyajin8529]

He's also the heaviest heavy lol

[@milesandrews6711]

He's faster than alot of the midweights

[@borederlands5387]

grapplers in regular fighting games have similar problems most of the time, but they're a lot more viable on average than heavies in smash bros

[@matroqueta6825]

It's funny because grapplers are arguably more viable than strikers in IRL fighting (?

[@ItsReallyColdOutside]

About sylvanos you forgot about his side tilt. The more grass he has the longer his side tilt travels Other than that minor detail, great video

[@MauroBragado64]

But he does 5:35

[@ItsReallyColdOutside]

@@MauroBragado64 he's talking about sylvanos foward special. That's the bite while moving attack not the projectile

[@fezthedracky8468]

God I miss this version of Sylvanos. But alas, he was never meant to stay like this. Although he probably is in a better place now

[@glitch6996]

@@fezthedracky8468 yea, he still feels as fluid

[@fezthedracky8468]

@@glitch6996 idk if I'd describe him as fluid these days, definitely some things that shouldn't happens s evident by the sylv-is-too-good chat in the Discord lol, but he's 100% in a better place after the stuff like bair changes that happened last patch

[@ar.temis696]

2:05 Melee Bowser has many more problems than just that, he kinda just doesn't work. For example, down throw does 0 damage to Jigglypuff and Mr. Game & Watch.

[@Adi-do2rq]

This video is amazing! I'm glad to see rivals getting attention for what it's done and I wish I got to see this earlier. As someone said, super high quality for such a small channel. I'd love to see you talk about unique aspects of rivals you're enjoyed as well, even if it's been a year since you released this video.

[@Rylopero]

You forgot one key point. It's not just the ranged moves, it's the frame data of said moves. Characters like Dedede and Piranha Plant have the decent zoning options you mentioned, and characters like Ridley and Charizard have very large disjointed attack options, but they suffer from horrible frame data that causes a lot of these moves to be very punishable. Characters like Snake aren't just good because of their range, but also because they have good burst options out of shield or moves that are safe on shield. Heavies that have this are usually considered more viable (ie Ultimate Bowser being upper mid tier with fair and up b having decent frame data)

[@Sundaiiz]

This is a really well done analysis and breakdown of this subject and I'd like to thank you for making this.

[@mollywantshugs5944]

Something interesting that I thought about is that traditional fighters have a similar issue with Grapplers (the closest traditional fighters typically get to platform fighter style heavies), but for some wildly different reasons. Where platform fighters emphasize movement, and therefore have primarily speedy characters as top tiers, traditional fighters emphasize space control and therefore have zoning top tiers. Characters who are very good at undermining space control are often the main top tiers to not be zoners. Oddly, Rivals' heavies (and Brawl's snake) are probably the closest that I've seen to zoners in a traditional fighter. Also grapplers in traditional fighters often end up being relatively sturdy thanks to their heavy weight not factoring into traditional fighter combos nearly as much. Anyway, the most common solution I've seen in traditional fighters is to give grapplers unique movement options and utility moves that let them gradually approach while minimizing damage taken. Then when they eventually get in, you basically just die right there. Grappler matchups when the grappler wins tend to be long and slow but then end very suddenly when the grappler finally gets in

[@boomguy2]

Nopethebard: Classic Are zoners really that high up the tier list in FGs? There may be cases like Rev 2 Venom and BBCF’s Nine the Phantom, but most top tiers are still gonna be rushdown (Third Strike Yun, Rev 2 Johnny, most top tiers in the MvC series barring Morrigan) to incentivize risk taking. I agree that most FGs now give grapplers options to approach, which is especially difficult to grant in platform fighters where you can’t corner people nearly as easily. It also doesn’t really help that it’s hard to keep players under pressure as a grappler. Perhaps grapplers in platform fighters will need super high jumps to cover players trying to escape pressure and have command grabs that specifically put people in edgeguard situations? It’s interesting to think about it for sure

[@mollywantshugs5944]

Jeffery Jefferson A couple of points. 3S had the parry, which pretty much shuts down projectiles. Jonny is top tier in Xrd, but Zato and Testament are top in XX. In ST, half the top tiers and most of the high tiers are zoners. In general, recent fighting games often attempt to actively weaken zoning due to many players hating zoners. Also, some fighting games (like SF5) have used an approach of homogenizing the cast to even things. SF5 is the only fighter I can think of where getting in as a grappler isn't extremely difficult outside of beginner level play. Yeah better edgeguarding and a scary command grab would likely help a heavy in a platform fighter.

[@KnakuanaRka]

This guy only has 803 subscribers? This content is incredible! :-D

[@SomeHockeyPlayer]

Look at him now

[@ScribeAwoken]

I'm reminded of something that Jason Rice once said during a Q&A stream when he was still at Wavedash Games: he talked about how a lot of the better slow characters across multiple genres - from traditional fighters to MOBAs to hero shooters and, yes, even platform fighters usually have two ways of making up for their lack of speed: burst mobility and crowd control. Moves that let them cover a lot of distance in a short span of time, at the cost of some degree of commitment, and moves with big hitboxes that restrict your opponent's movement options, forcing them to take the long way around if they wanna get to you. Unfortunately the game only really had one heavy in the form of Weishan, though that heavy was... honestly probably the only heavy I actually enjoyed playing in a platform fighter. He was big and slow, but he had huge disjoints with his polearm and decent enough frame data as well.

[@readyplayerthree3]

Thank you so much for this video! Really I can't get enough of people singing praises for Rivals of Aether! XD I'm super into the game and really it's the best platform fighter out there based on character design, uniqueness, and balance!

[@boomguy2]

I remember watching this vid a while back when I was still relatively inexperienced. Recently, wanting to make a vid on Smash and archetypes, I happened upon this again and have new opinions. Heavies are indeed plagued with weaknesses in platform fighters - however, said weaknesses are due to the fact that their hitboxes can’t hit their opponents in the first place. Like the vid said, ROA’s heavies are good since they can pressure from afar - *they are zoners.* I think most people know by now that characters such as Snake and Mega Man are VERY viable, and when we’re talking about heavies in this case, we’re not exactly referring to them. Instead, we’re mostly talking about the grappler (and perhaps unga bunga?) archetype, referring to Bowser, Ganondorf, Incineroar, etc. Giving them many of the tools that ROA’s characters have will completely change their design, and I think the question here to ask is if such archetypes CAN be implemented and still stay true to their core. Etalus seems to be a character that is mostly of this archetype and less of a zoner, which I quite like - this begs the question, though, about what kinds of other designs can work as well. In FGs like Guilty Gear and Blazblue, we see grapplers with reflectors, projectiles that take a long time to charge (like Rob’s beam), and gimmicks to pull opponents in - could that be what Smash needs as well? I think this video is great and addresses a huge design issue inherent to platform fighters, but there are definitely more questions to be answered.

[@infernate4067]

I feel like they need to strike a balance between grabs and their kit. Their grab should be a goto but their kit needs to revolve around set ups or gimmicks to get that grappler play style.

[@xx-cj6ew]

I saw the same issue in the video. What strikes me is that in order to actually be a heavy pummeler style character (no weapons / easy disjoints), they *must* extend their hurtbox along with their hitbox. This means they are constantly at risk of getting hit when they attack, and since attacking is slow and arduous by virtue of being a heavy, they are often unable to hit their mark / dictate the pace of the game. One tool these characters need is physical superiority when they *do* decide to attack. When a pummeler extends an attack, it should be superior in "weight" to attacks from other, lighter characters while the hitbox is extended: this way, when a pummeler and a lighter character throw attacks into the same space, the pummeler's wins by sheer force; they could force the lighter character into a sort of "backlash lag". This forces lighter characters to respect potential attacking windows of heavier chars (except those with huge disjoints like swordies), which reduces the potency of their higher manuverability somewhat. A second vital glaring weakness pummelers have is the ability to respond to the assaults of opponents. These chars could use timing-based defensive superiority, whether it be by having vastly stronger / larger shields that cool down faster when actually blocking an attack, I-Frames when performing dedicated defensive options, larger power-shielding windows, potentially stronger SDI or equivalent mechanics to help avoid being combo food to a degree. A "get off me" move, ala PM Bowser's Up+B, with fast startup and low ending lag on the ground would also help restore neutral in the event of being outmaneuvered. Finally, the heaviest of heavy pummelers could even have such high defense that low percentage hits from lighter characters don't even knock them off the ground; just causing a few frames of hitstun would avoid them being hit-based combo food for the first 30-40% of each stock, giving them a larger early stock advantage to aid in comebacks. Other simpler design options include farther reaching attacks (they *are* bigger after all), better off-stage mix-up options, or having vastly superior grab ranges.

[@boomguy2]

Austin Schaefer I see what you’re saying, but I actually think Smash more or less addressed the issues you’re talking about. Priority exists in Smash, and if I’m not incorrect I think the attacks of such an archetype do have higher priority. Even if they don’t, some straight up have disjoints (see Bowser fair), and even if they aren’t, some possess armor in their attacks to compensate (Bowser, K. Rool, etc.), and EVEN if they don’t, the worst scenario is a trade. Given how heavy characters are, well, heavy, trading percent with a lighter character will generally be in their favor. In terms of not being able to deal with opponents, I think the majority of this archetype actually has tools to deal with this. Bowser has up B OOS, Incineroar has neutral and down B, the existence of armor, etc. Most of them also have a fast move that can be thrown out (usually nair) to break out of pressure. I actually think it’s fine for them to not have great tools for this (since shielding is already a strong universal defense option) as long as if they can approach and keep pressure up, which I maintain are their true main weaknesses. Most of your other points, such as them needing better range and grab ranges, are actually already covered for - they generally have large normals and pivot grabs that can cover whole platforms. The main issue in my opinion is that close-range heavies have trouble going in - high risk - yet can’t that much damage or pressure off of them - low/medium reward. The idea is that single attacks do more damage and have more knockback for them, which frankly is what they don’t want - I think they’d much rather have lower damage per hit and be able to keep the opponent close to them, like Shulk Buster Art. The fact that grabs also launch opponents super far isn’t exactly ideal, either; the best is generally an edgeguard situation, but what I think would be a much better implementation would be something akin to Ganon’s Flame Choke, where the opponent isn’t knocked away. Through something like this, one can continue to maintain pressure even after building damage. Just food for thought.

[@shame2189]

I do agree with your points, and rivals definitely takes the cake when it comes to heavys, but the key to heavy characters is not playing aggro, but playing tactical. People who play heavy characters rely a lot on jank, gimping and most of all outsmarting the oponent in general. Even if your character suffers from these major flaws, you can definitely keep that in mind and bait others out in order to punish hard. However, in order to bend your opponents will like that you do need to have the lead most of the time. This requires you to hit hard in the first few minutes. If you don't get the lead, yeah, you're _most likely_ gonna have a bad time... Heavys are flawed, but *especially these days* not totally ineligible in my opinion. It's almost like taking a gamble; "will i be able to beat their playstyle using this tactic, or will they see through it?" It's a high risk _above average_ (and sometimes even high) reward situation. loved your vid, keep up the awesome work because a new subscriber is waiting for more!

[@loljamad4128]

i never played rivals before but heavies sound pretty interesting, in ultimate heavy characters are in a good spot right now, wario and snake are top tiers, meanwhile rob, ken, terry, ike and bowser are high tiers

[@GlassWorksVSynth]

i feel like elliana is just simply fast enough to not suffer from the heavy problem that much in the first place

[@NinteddyRose]

Project M handles heavies very well. All of them can compete at high level play. They have tools to get in and can touch of death like crazy. Just look at thunderz

[@bendriscoll4758]

what if we could make heavies have more hitstun, it can give heavies a much better combo game but could still be punished for missing moves or techs. so you could still easily keep the same problems. Simply more reward for the heavies that earned it

[@Kinaibhlan]

They're basically the super saiyan level Trunks used when he fought perfect cell.

[@Khan-_-Art1st]

Heavies I'm always drawn to in these kinds of games and Aether is no different. They look and play amazingly! Especially Sylvanos

[@nobafan7515]

I think the real problems with heavy characters is that they get stunned too easily. This is what made metal mario in smash 64 so difficult.

[@hanselfinn8946]

Sakurai need to write this down

[@SerbianKnifeFight]

This video is a year old, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents to the intro of the (very good) video. I'd say that being a "heavy" is huge disadvantage in other fighters. The saving grace, is that in a 2d fighter, you can back someone into a corner allowing for some very scary pressure from heavy type characters. And honestly the whole big hitbox and easy to combo is just as much of a problem in 2d fighters. Q from Street Fighter 3 third strike comes to mind. If theres an absurd max damage combo you can perform, it'll work on Q. His falling hurtbox is so wide that it makes juggles easy and allows normally unavailable ones to be used. Also his attacks may hit fairly hard but they're so slow they always get blocked or parried.

[@JD-xz1mx]

"Characters like Bowser in Melee and Ganondorf in Brawl are candidates for worst fighting game characters in history." You mean in platform fighters right? Cause that's not even close to the ballpark of worst in history overall. As for giving heavies zoning options, I love the idea though I doubt the Smash community would. In my experience, they tend to despise any gameplay that isn't high execution rushdown.

[@twitterplug]

Deserve much more recognition

[@htwo1]

Thanks! Here's hopin' I get it some day lol

[@StormierNik]

So what you're telling me is, King K Rool and Dedede are closest to being done right as a truly viable heavy but simply missing better data on most of their moves since they already have projectiles. Or at least viable in the way that Rivals makes Heavies viable. And to give Bowser fireballs instead of flame breath, DK a Barrel, Ganon a magic projectile like in Ocarina. I like it. Also great video in general

[@ln8496]

Everytime there is an "issue" with platform fighters, its neat how that problem doesnt exist in smash 64, the first one. Yoshi and falcon are heavy and super fast. Falcon is also a fast faller which makes him like the hardest character to kill off the top in most games.

[@MaddieThePancake]

As a Ridley player, that clip from Esam hurt me physically

[@libertyprime7559]

Huzzah a man of great quality content

[@dragonslair951167]

Makes sense. I think Nintendo has not yet realized all of the crippling weaknesses that come with being a heavy character, and that they need to add more strengths to make them viable.

[@jcnot9712]

Amazing content man, hope your channel pops off soon.

[@HalfQilin]

Wooo I’m a massive rivals fan, great video!

[@calc8999]

The algorithm has bestowed you with its blessings. Great video 👍

[@Eichro]

In the more recent titles Bowser is looking quite viable to me. Not high tier but still rather usable.

[@armorbearer9702]

Could giving heavies more defensive buffs work as well? It seems like the main problem is that speed is the stat that rules them all. There needs to be heavy trade off between for speed. It seems like the attack increases have been adequate, but not defense.

[@Vapor.Steve77]

Genious video My Man. I was thinking about this the other day, obviously less articulated

[@dextra_24703]

DK in ult could be his best iteration if his dash attack would just be jump cancelable and from that have increased air movement speed. Ganon would just be better if he just had a longer range up special or just putting a teleport inbetween the attack parts of the moves. Ridley could even have a mechanic based on metroid by increasing his speed the more damage he has.

[@bokcmeatyvstheworld8273]

As a heavy player you must be patient and careful when choosing certain match-ups

[@tobiaszeller4323]

Have you ever played a non-platform fighter? Heavies in those games are also slow, also combofood, which is what I assume you mean when you explain weight(this is a bit difficult to describe, but most combos in platform highters are escapable with the right DI or fast escape options, and heavies struggle to get you off of them due to their weight leaving you closer after a hit. heavies in traditional fighters struggle to get you off of them due to terrible defensive options), and also big, and somehow this is a problem exclusive to platform fighters. Characters in 2D fighters don't solve this issue by barely having it, they solve it through strengths in other areas. super turbo E honda has all of these issues, and they really are issues, but he ends up decent because his strengths are so good(14th of 32). Brawl Ganon is terrible not only because he has no mobility, but also because when he gets in he does 15-25 off a stray hit and that's basically it, where Honda would've made your life hell with a command grab that only comes out if it will hit that does really solid damage and loops into itself unless your opponent does something that beats it(reversal super if you have meter, backdash, jump, reversal DP if you have one). If honda was in Rivals, his headbut would be projectile invincible and take half the time to charge(so would his butslam), his walkspeed would be at least 1.5x faster, and his CQC would be just good instead of best in game. Also, melee bowser and brawl ganon are the worst fighting game characters ever? Have you seen any version of Dan?

[@fourbladex]

Subbed for a good video. May the algorithm be kind to you.

[@Waffletigercat]

Sylvanos was so good at one point that they had to completely rework some of his normals. The original ones simply couldn't be made fair while still keeping the hitboxes accurate to the animations. Also, Elliana was widely considered the worst character in the game for quite a while, and it took a few dedicated character specialists like GracefulKnight putting in a ton of work to figure out how to get results with her.

[@Bringingmoneyback]

Yeah krag has a rock it's his entire gimmick and play style and I love it

[@aruretheincomprehensible9847]

I disagree that platform fighters have a problem with heavies considering Smash is the only major platform fighter that actually has a problem with heavies. Slap City has also managed to make a viable heavy (Fishbunjin is a heavy, but I'm not sure if any other characters can be considered "heavies" in their roster), while Brawlhalla also provides a fair selection of viable "heavies" by removing the two biggest weaknesses that heavies have in size (every character is roughly the same size, if not the exact same size) and weight (combos aren't dependent on weight values, so heavy characters aren't taking longer combos relative to lighter characters, and the added weight becomes a significant bonus to survivability as a result). The reason that the concept of the "heavy problem" exists is because Smash is well over 50% of the platform fighter scene and Smash does have the heavy problem. Furthermore, the reason that the heavy problem exists is not because heavies are slow, fat, and heavy, but it's because they are slow, fat, heavy, and have other weaknesses stacked onto those with very few strengths. Look at Gannondorf in Smash 4. He isn't bottom 3 because he's slow, fat, and heavy, but instead it's because he's slow, fat, heavy, has poor frame data, has a bad recovery, and has a bad combo game, while is only strengths are that he has a lot of single-hit damage and has good edgeguarding.

[@FenexTheFox]

Fishbunjin is litterally the most broken fighter in any platform fighter ever (on purpose!), so I guess that doesn't really count.

[@tonyt987]

I haven’t played any other platform fighter aside from Smash related ones and Rivals, but from your descriptions, those aren’t true heavies... right? I mean, at the start of the video, he described heavies as characters with larger hit boxes, more weight, and a slower speed (which isn’t as big of a determining factor when it comes to categorizing). I mean, how can a character be labeled “heavy” if they are not heavier than other characters? To solve a problem about a specific archetype, you can’t just remove that archetype, change everything that made it special, then call it the same... I don’t know, these are just my thoughts on your descriptions; I don’t have any experience to back any of it up.

[@hielum1337]

Nice vid, you need more subs!

[@Vinnyspinny]

Etalus being slow Dash attack jumpcancel / wavedash would like to have a word

[@Vinnyspinny]

@Bunneer I did, he said Ice makes him faster but didn't mention the reason why etalus is insane

[@why3994]

the KZbin algorithm has chosen you.

[@TheGothGaming]

in traditional fighting games big characters play the grappler archetype, they have very long grab range and multiple grab moves that make up for their slower normal moves. smash4 actually did a good job with bowser and DK they had amazing grab game and grab kill confirms and combos and were somewhat viable, but smash ultimate made a step back in the wrong direction for heavies.

[@Jandalmang]

Rivals being a game designed for competitive play is why the heavies are balanced. All characters are being balanced around the idea that players will use every resource a character has. Smash can't make their heavies too powerful, because their design philosophy is for the game to be accessible as many people as possible, and having a heavy hitter with too much speed/range/control is going to ruin the experience for anyone not playing that character.

[@infernate4067]

At the same time, new players struggle against heavies in Smash ultimate anyway. Even if I do agree with what you say, they could implement minor changes to these characters kits to make them better overall.

[@BigDBrian]

@@infernate4067 the fact that the struggle is still there shows why making them even stronger is a bad idea (from the perspective of developer intent) To offset this they could make them better in more complex or otherwise difficult to use ways. Since low level play obviously won't be able to take advantage of their strengths. But again smash isn't designed competitively so this would never happen.

[@yungmuney5903]

Ugh... I'm so sick of this "HEAVYWEIGHT WOULD BE TOO OP" fearmongering bullshit. This mentality is why we have disasters like Melee Bowser and Brawl/Smash 4 Ganondorf, and King K Rool having arbritrary weaknesses like Belly Armor HP and forced Crown Pickup animation. I don't get it, how would making Heavyweights powerful make the game any less accessable than having speedy lightweights powerful? New players will struggle against heavyweights because their NEW players, would they struggle any less than a speedy lightweight who they can't hit and get comboed to hell? Heavyweights being slow, big targed, combo meal with often mediocore recoveries is already a big enough weakness as it is.

[@wophful]

ok we know this heavy zoner thing works because of rob. literally the only heavy that’s not garbage in ultimate. Snake too

[@rizolo4585]

I watched the video and assumed you were some 100k youtuber, great job on the video! Consider me subscribed :)

[@htwo1]

I bloody WISH I was some 100k youtuber! Thanks!

[@themustardthe]

1:34 wait, but Ridley isn’t a heavy. He’s lighter than Samus Great vid, but this was a bit odd Edit: Ridley *is* technically a heavyweight, though not nearly as heavy as the what’s usually considered one by most people

[@stealthy9156]

Imagine if he was heavier. And I think this was mainly to demonstrate why characters with high weight can be comboed quite a lot

[@themustardthe]

stormwolf3303 that might have been the case, but it feels a bit unlikely. Imo, I think it’s more likely that he may have just thought that Ridley was a heavyweight.

[@jonssogaming8255]

Whilst Ridley isn’t classed as a heavy, he still has the weaknesses of a heavy character.

[@themustardthe]

Jonsso Gaming sadly. If he was actually heavy, he might be a bit better due to survivability. He could still get comboed cuz of the big hitbox, but currently, like you said, he gets all the bad stuff about heavies without the heavy part of it.

[@jmoral018]

μουστάρδα I was watching the video thinking the same thing lol, like Ridley doesn’t have a heavyweight problem because he’s not that heavy, he has a large hurt box problem.

[@thisguyispeculiar]

TL;DR Instead of making Heavy characters just a tank who soak up damage, make them into mini-bosses with stage control and projectiles.

[@azophi]

Are there any good platform fighters other then smash, brawlhalla, and rivals of aether?

[@mow123]

slap city, I haven't played it yet but some of the melee pros made videos about it and liked it.

[@fryenchill2817]

I know this video was made before we realized that Bowser was good in Ultimate, but I do want to say that being slow doesn’t have to be one of a Heavy’s weaknesses. Ultimate Bowser has one of the fastest sprint speeds in the game and a decent air speed, along with a few disjoints and overall large buttons. He also has one of the best OOS options in the game (whirling fortress). But on the flip side, he is the HEAVIEST character in the game and has a pretty sizeable hurt box which makes him massive combo food. Ultimate bowser is an amazing example of how a heavy character can be good without being gimmicky.

[@Mystravian]

....bowser is okay in ultimate. He is a good heavy, not a good character, dude doesnt peak into high tier or anything

[@Liezuli]

Bowser is extremely gimmicky tf you on?

[@fryenchill2817]

Liezuli A “gimmicky” character is a character that has only one or two good tool and plays entirely based on that. Bowser has too many good tools for different situations to be considered nothing more than a gimmick

[@Liezuli]

@@fryenchill2817 Tough Guy, Whirling Fortress, and Flying Slam seem pretty gimmicky to me. And a lot of people consider G&W a gimmick despite the number of tools at his disposal. I don't think it has a solid definition.

[@fryenchill2817]

Caleb Meilink-Smith I strongly disagree, Bowser has several tools that allow him to control the pace of matches. He can get tons of damage off a single read with neutral B, his up-b and side-b make his OOS game arguably the best in the game, and his forward air is essentially a sword swipe with how large and disjointed it is. He also has a few decently fast ground buttons, particularly up tilt and f-tilt, the former being disjointed. He can also just win interactions for free sometimes because of Tough Guy (no hitstun from low damage moves). Now even with all those strengths, he’s not top tier, and he certainly has some bad matchups, but even in those matchups it doesn’t feel like bowser has no way to deal with the opponent. Bowser is certainly high tier.

[@Rev0care]

fishbunjin snubbed

[@bangaliekanu5852]

I thought the title meant the big problem for platform fighters

[@spectacledman]

Funny thing how he comments on the weight of heavies being a bad thing by showing pikachu-a great combo character-combo ridley-a midweight.

[@mistahmoots]

So i have a switch and an xbox. But my controller on switch broke, so now i play rivals. I good alternative if you dont have a switch or other reasons

[@eyeccantseeyouu]

If you haven’t heard rivals definitive edition will actually be coming to the switch!

[@nekosaiyajin8529]

It is objectiively the best platform fighter, period, no disussion.

[@queenofyasrabien]

Is one of the characters in rivals of aether Ori from Ori and the blind forest?

[@naruka777]

Yea, Ori and Shovel Knight are both ''guest characters''. Shovel knight is actually another heavy introduced into the game, he has a pretty interesting gimmick where you can ''shop'' mid game for abilities with gems that you collect from hitting your opponent.

[@borederlands5387]

On the topic of worst fighting game characters, million arthur arcana blood has a character named snow white who is enormous and has barely any mobility and no good projectiles without assists, it's like they plopped a smash bros heavy into an anime game

[@Boggarthh]

Grapplers in other games have similar problems.

[@rainbowspongebob]

I forgot all the points

[@MrAzimuth24]

Only other platform fighter I've played that has remotely viable heavies is the overhated Playstation All-Stars Battle Royale, but that's only cause of the game's Marvel vs Capcom 2 levels of balancing, and the only Heavyweight that can come close to the game's equivalent of Bayonetta (who in this case is Kat from Gravity Rush) is Zeus, especially once you're able to use his ridiculous Level 3, and even Sweet Tooth and Big Daddy in the right hands can lay down a good beating in at least a 1v1 setting.

[@Mr.Foxhat]

Typically however, most heavies in Allstars are completely overshadowed by Raiden, Kat, Dante, and Kratos. They just don't have the kits to really counter the speed and range that those named character have. It seems that the best heavies are the ones with disjointed hitboxes. Btw, who do/did you main in Playstation Allstars? I was a Sir Daniel player myself and know how tough some of the matchups were.

[@Winnarly]

Hey man YT just recommended me this video and between this and your other OP vid I'm really interested in hearing more about your thoughts on game balance. I'm making a platform fighter and if you're interested I'd love to send you a key for it to get your thoughts. Either way hope you come back and make more vids again!

[@saviorofseals5111]

Rivals and PM are the only platform fighters that have genuinely cool heavies. PM Ganondorf is the only time I've wanted to play as the """"""slow"""""" guy.

[@pilkmaster]

casually ignores ultimate bowser

[@nathanpuno31]

Are we just gonna ignore that most heavies have disjointed such as dks arms or that kkr has annoying projectiles that made people think he was top tier or that incineroar has side b that can kill mad early

[@tokuyou3811]

Nathan Puno they do have disjoints but its not enough to make them competitvely viable.

[@reidmccants624]

Keanu Erguiza I don’t know what Smash game you’re playing, but basically all of the characters in ultimate competitively viable.

[@tokuyou3811]

Reid McCants my mistake, if not competitively viable then i mean capable of winning super major or major tournaments. very rarely do we get true heavies in top 8. nairo pulled out ganon a couple of times. rosalina is sorta in this camp. i havent seen many heavies win since the start of the game when we saw some k rools and dks do well. the only true heavy that was making it in the game was snake, and hes basically what RoA heavies are. but i think hes dropped off considerably since then. charizard in pokemon trainer is a heavy too in a lot of ways, but hes unfair because he can be used in conjuction with two other characters im not a heavy hater, i used to main incineroar when i was playing the game a lot more. i do think theyre a lot of fun and ive won matches with heavy characters. but based on tournment wins, the kind of characters that generally win are not classified as heavies.

[@johnnyboi331]

@@tokuyou3811 thats because the skilled players do not like playing heavies due to their playstyle already being set from past games. Leon and Nairo have shown everyone that heavies can beat any character if you know how to use them. Mkleo praised tweeks dedede saying its ridiculously good and hard to contain etc. the heavies are viable in the right hands cause there not all donkey kong. most of them have gimmicks that work no matter who the oponent is.

[@tokuyou3811]

John Flanagan if they were more competitively viable ie capable of winning majors and supermajors, why aren't the top players using them? there is a difference between characters being good in the right hands, and characters that you see being represented in top 8s. what do you mean by due to their playstyle already being set from past games? we've had a slew of new heavies come out this game and they're still not taking stacked tournaments. its not like i dont think they ever will win a major or supermajor. of course i know the story of hbox's jigglypuff or amsa's yoshi or axe's pikachu. characters that had potential but weren't fully realized. in a way the heavies of ultimate are in this camp, but at the very begginning, and subject to change. ultimate is more balanced than any other smash game, is what most people say. so theoretically a heavy character can still be suited to win a tournament like puff can. and so im willing to bet in the future we will start seeing those results. but as it stands there's not a lot of substantial evidence that points to that happening just yet. people were saying since the begginning of the game inkling is the best character in the game. strange is it that the best character in the game doesnt take that many tournaments. does that mean that those people, pros namely, are wrong? theyre not. inkling does have good tools to get there, more so than heavies especially. inkling has shown a lot more promise goven results. shit snake showed that promise well and true.

[@ugh8142]

Super armour and weight ratio to opps would fix this problem

[@AEGIS-RED-MEGA-VIEWS]

i like those games even that are pixels

[@corrackisdead]

I remember playing against Lord Bagel once, it was hell, same with my irl friend Oversized shady they be scary as hell

[@thegoose8663]

I never got the idea that heavy character should have a bad recovery. In this situation his weight is useless~

[@magicman7369]

idk if making more robs is a good idea

[@ayyyden2818]

Wait this channel has less than 500 subs?? The vid proved otherwise

[@maximus4765]

This is why I say k rool should be allowed more than 1 cannonball and have his endlag reduced. If he could pressure better he could be amazing

[@evanzigmond1213]

Have you been on HG101? I feel like I recognize your voice

[@htwo1]

No I haven't been, although I wouldn't be against it lol

[@TheGothGaming]

one matter that makes heavies super bad in smash is their recovery. because they are so big they dont only get comboed more, it is actualy easier to hit them offstage plus they usually have terrible up Bs

[@SunnyTetro]

Wait at minute. That venue is at xenosaga newyork

[@jojo-tn6bx]

Xull: *Hold my beer*

[@bird6708]

crag has a rock

[@eternalfrost3294]

Got shivers at 8:14 wtf lmaooo

[@caimaccass6911]

1:37 Ridley is not a heavy He weighs less then samus He has a large hitbox but the point made with the clip does not apply

[@Sylvergunner]

He overall definitely falls into the claasic heavy archetype though

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

1:03 Hurtbox, not hitbox.

[@bombs2848]

Sylvanos somehow does and doesn't feel like a heavyweight at the same time.

[@htwo1]

He definitely feels like a heavy when you're at low percent and wrastor starts slapping you

[@CodinIsHere]

This video is just why rivals has the best heavies

[@fums63]

the real heavy problem is that even good heavies are wack

[@skyninegaming]

I'm not gonna lie, but I dont think having a heavy as top level viable is really necessary. Melee already has one heavy and two heavier midweights as top tiers. Giving heavies tools to encourage opponents to approach is definitely useful, but it runs into an issue where the range at which heavies are good is when they can zone, like Ganon's fair, and having a projectile still doesnt make up for how goddamn slow they are. If you want a good heavy, make captain falcon good. Hes inherently balanced; moves fast, hits hard but has more start up requiring precision. Outside of falcon, dont even worry about trying to make the heavies good, as they suffer fundamentally

[@YojimboJames]

Rivals managing to improve mechanics previously established in smash? Consider me..... Not surprised because rivals in amazing

[@htwo1]

In my opinion, Rivals is the first platform fighter to actually try and push the genre outside of being a "smash clone" and innovate it to be its own independent thing away from Smash, similar to how old first person shooters had to innovate to stop being referred to as "DOOM clones"