The Hidden Religious Subtext in Persona 5 Royal

[@TruCheesy]

Joker has the power of God and anime on his side Or rather... Satan and anime?

[@MildlyAggressiveOni]

Satan and manga You know, to be opposite.

[@samz9121]

In my head canon, (I’m a practicing Christian) God looks at Yaldabaoth and sends a messenger to hell. “Lucie, if you take care of this little problem I’ll let you run around with this kid. I think you might like him” Lucifer transforms into Satanael, Lucie: “Very well. Time to play”

[@SHADZA4321]

One other thing that might be good to mention. Yaldabaoth from cultural history is suppose to be a being that seeks to be like God, or the anti-christ. And in some biblical text, God tells man to not be afraid to test this false god if he appears at the end of days to see if he is the real one. Which is basically what you are doing in the game. Idk, I watch a lot of videos about mythology and biblical stuff.

[@dragonheart1236]

God genuinely told us to Vibe Check any imposters

[@tymaddux2644]

If that is the case, my guess is that with Joker summoning Satanael, it means that man is bringing the worst of themselves to see if he can purge it but he cant, thus making him the false god

[@weedleisopcute3626]

@@dragonheart1236 Yep

[@akechipride1580]

I wonder if with the parallels of the archangels and four horsemen, we'll get a video on mainline SMT/SMT Nocturne when rereleased

[@3Waifu]

I am extremely excited for the Nocturne remaster and I absolutely have plans for it on this channel!

[@walesjedi9217]

I'm not sure how "hidden" the subtext is, you literally fight Yaldabaoth, an actual God

[@3Waifu]

I agree with that haha, I would classify this as subtext in the sense that none of these points are core to the plot or narrative but rather they are deliberate visual symbols chosen to convey a message resonant with the core themes of the game. However I don't think either way of looking at it is right or wrong as each interpretation has merit!

[@aurafox1]

Let's not forget, though, that Yaldabaoth is a false God. Both in the context of the game and in mythological context (named after a being pulled from noncanonical biblical scripture). In P5, he's created from mankind's desire to be controlled and escape personal accountability. Yaldabaoth is a scapegoat for humanity more than anything else and can parallel the way many utilize Christianity, but he is not an actual God. He is merely deluded into thinking so by the cognition of humanity, much like how Wakaba wasn't an actual Sphynx.

[@KirbyFever]

@@aurafox1 So he is not actually Yahweh he is meant to be some false god?

[@aurafox1]

@@KirbyFever He's just a cognition, not a real God. Though I suppose an argument could be made that humanity perceiving him as a God gives him unimaginable strength. But, he's just a cognition at the end of the day, unlike, say, Nyx from P3, who seems to be an actual deity.

[@KirbyFever]

@@aurafox1 Oh i see thanks, i have been concerned of trying to find this answer for a while now but thanks! God and Christ bless you and your family! Hope you have a nice day.

[@RobotnikUnit]

People say Lucifer started the first revolution in his acts against God and with Yaldabaoth being a false God the theme fits perfectly with rebellion. The irony of using a entity depicted as the ultimate evil to do good is what makes it so interesting to me. It fits in perfectly with how the Shido situation made him fall from grace and how badly Joker was depicted by everyone early game, just to be the one to serve Justice at the end.

[@samz9121]

As a practicing Christian having lived life in and out of an "ideal" lifestyle, I do understand the view and the sad history of the church. The draconic view of the church and some practices of some entities that give the rest of us a bad name still exist after all these years of tradition in the face of changing times and lack of (a willingness to be) understanding. Ironically enough, P5R is my favourite game of all time because even in the face of everything that should shake my fundamental Christian beliefs to the core, let alone the new semester, I actually can see the freedom it is to choose for ourselves rather than blind obedience. I stand with my church because I believe in what we do and the way we do it, but that does not excuse all the newsworthy antics of some entities have had on the public eye. My personal takeaway from the persona franchise as a whole is in a way, a new way to look at being human. One of my favourite lines that I've taken as my own is this. All you need is something simple, like someone to take care of.

[@a.rustici1972]

Nice! 👍😁👌‼️

[@quentinlemaitre2998]

Idk why you think this game should shake your beliefs to its core. Yaldi is nothing more than the representation of the Demiurge, which its full concept is far, far away from the God of the bible. By definition it’s literally a false god.

[@samz9121]

@@quentinlemaitre2998 I was actually alluding to the potentially anti-religious subtext through the plotline, and even more so the new semester. The context of my world was one of internal missteps and external media assault. That detail alone should give you a clue as to which church I might be a part of. I’ve seen good people walk away from even faith because of bad experience, but also an unwillingness to see a different perspective, which is one thing I love about the Persona franchise. Pushing to look beyond and turn the tables. I understand where you’re coming from, but I pray you can understand that my context meant that the anti-religious sentiment hit a little more raw than it should, and it simply should have been, as you put it, literally a false god. I hope that sheds light as to why I phrased things the way I did almost a year ago.

[@aliasmp4]

Not to mention that Maruki, the true final boss, is heavily based on the idea of a messiah figure found in many religions across the world, with his true persona being based upon a character in certain religions, being posed as an oppressive person who fails to see the value of free will.

[@aurafox1]

I'm honestly kind of shocked this video didn't mention anything from the end of Royal as it goes hand in hand with what you talked about. One thing I'd like to point out, though, is the context of Personas. I am not too familiar with SMT yet, but having played P3-5, it's clear to me that these Personas are derived from human consciousness and interpretation of various mythical and supernatural beings/creatures. I won't say much on their existence as demons in SMT because, without having played SMT, I don't know much about what exactly that means in this context, but the cognitive aspect of Personas and Shadows, especially in the context of Persona 5, is what I think is important to take into account here. Yaldabaoth isn't just a symbolic representation of God. I'd like to call attention to his name which pulls from non-canonical, or false, biblical scripture. Yaldabaoth being a supposed God that came into existence alongside God. I can't recall the exact context of what Yaldabaoth was, but he went by many names according to this false scripture. The important part, I think, is that he is a false God, which lines up exactly with his role in Persona 5 where he is a false God created by humanity's desire to be controlled. I don't think that inspiration is coincidence. I do get the vibe that the writers don't take kindly to religion either, but I think P5 in particular showcases specifically those who seek to use religion as a means of oppression, rather than making a statement about God himself. Any Christian will agree that there are those who seek to do evil under the guise of good will. The Bible itself says so. In a world in which those have played their way to the top, anyone who opposes them would be equated to Satan himself. For this reason, Lucifer and Satanael the strongest Personas in P5, but that wasn't always actually the case. In P3, the highest base-level persona was Messiah, an obvious parallel to Jesus Christ himself and, like Satanael, is the evolution of the P3 protagonist's original persona Orpheus. I'm actually not certain of these three games share the same writer, but either way, it seems to me that the writers of Persona condem the use of religion as a means of oppression, but not necessarily against God himself. After all, recall that there is no persona representing God himself save for Messiah. But, I won't speak on the writers' behalf. I could be completely wrong in my interpretation. Having not played SMT, or even the earlier Persona titles, I can't say it with full confidence. [P5R spoiler territory] As for my interpretation of Maruki? Well, I imagine a lot of people might use this story to point out the flawed logic of a paradise like heaven. But, the way I see it, the big flaw between Maruki's "paradise" and God's is simply that Maruki is human and limited in what he can do and know. He can't possibly create a perfect reality because he can't possibly know what would actually make people happy. Rather, he was a good person whose good nature was exploited by a villainous persona. As demonstrated through the events of the game, Maruki fails to address the inherent evils of the world and assumes everyone just wants to be happy. His idea of paradise is difficult to argue against, even for the Phantom Thieves, but as Akechi points out, it isn't truly freedom. Maruki is almost like a parallel to Jesus except, unlike Jesus, he allowed himself to be tempted by Azathoth who plays a role similar to the devil in Jesus' story. He was shown a glimpse of the reality he could create with Azathoth's power and took that shortcut with honorable intentions, mind you, but he placed his faith in a being that only meant to exploit him. I talk about Azathoth as though he's another character rather than Maruki's persona, so I suppose it's more accurate to say Azathoth is like the counterpart to Jesus. But at this point, I think I'm ad libbing a bit too much. But, if anyone's still reading this far, I'm curious about what you might think about all of this?

[@IamAliGamer_]

Aren’t the archangels here just another version? Or like some corrupt versions of the real ones? Because Yusuke says after one of the fights “Though they may not be true servants of god, they do live up to that moniker.”

[@3Waifu]

I've always interpreted this as a line that shows us these aren't actual angels from some real heaven in the world of persona but rather that they are shadows from the metaverse. However I still believe that whether they are shadows or real angels the decision to make them reminiscent of biblical figures conveys a certain message either way! But as I've said before I think a lot media analysis comes down to personal interpretation and there is no "right answer" only our own take-aways from the text!

[@J-manli]

I take it as 2 simultaneous interpretations. While they aren’t servants of THE BIG G, they are servants of a godlike being. And they are one of the strongest non boss mobs you’ll face (provided you’re of near equal level).

[@Comrade_Hee-Ho]

In Shin Megami Tensei they're the real Archangels

[@grapes9h5]

Absolutely, it’s hardly subtext, it’s very clear. The impact of summoning Satanael to kill God is perfection.

[@thelasttrueblade6684]

And on Christmas Eve for extra perfect

[@SicklySeraph]

Something to add: Persona 5 maybe be the closest to SMT when it comes to the new persona games (3-5), the biggest themese in SMT is that Order vs. Chaos. Persona 5 quite litterally being a fight of rebellion against both corrupt officials and god is similar to the themes of Order and Chaos, Chaos being the freedom of holy order for people to fend for themselves. Which i found pretty interesting since as you mentioned, Satanael is refrencing Satan the "first" to rebel against god in christian belief. It's nothing new for Atlus but it still goes to show how many layers of interperation you can get out of both Persona and SMT.

[@AgentZ46]

I feel if Atlas truly wanted to cast a light on how Religion can be controlling one of the Palace rulers would be a Priest of some sort. I don't deny there a biblical themes but I don't think it's in a negative light as people like to say. Too many people try to make out Yabladoaboth (however the hell you spell it XD) to be the actual Christian God, which I don't believe the game is trying to say he is. It's also worth noting that Satanael is Lucifer as an Angel. Before he became Satan or the Devil as most people know him. The ultimate Rebel you might want to call him. And it's fitting to summon him to defeat a Tyrannical God. That said I don't think the game is telling you he's 'the god of Christianity' no more than Izanami from Persona 4 is the God of Christianity. And as minor as it is religion is cast in a positive light in Yusuke's confidant when he seeks to paint the anguish of Christ. And the Priest teaches Yusuke that crucifixion isn't just a message about Anguish but also forgiveness. It was an interesting video though! I just don't think there was any message here about how controlling religion can be.

[@s-wo8781]

JRPGs love doing this for some reason. Dragon Quest is the only series I know that seem pro religion.

[@SageDarkwind]

I believe it's because Dragon Quest presents the less zealotry aspect of religion, which, unfortunately, many seem to do on a regular basis.

[@samz9121]

@@SageDarkwind And they say Templars totally were not the ISIS of their time.

[@lilchromie]

Well when you consider more than half of all jrpgs have you killing god as the final boss it makes sense

[@Hawkatana]

Something to note is that the original plan for Joker's initial Persona was Mephistopheles: another demonic figure.

[@tastethecock5203]

I don't think the game using Angels and Demiurge makes it explicitly anti-religion. Angels are just classic representatives of the Law, and Demiurge is very twisted interpretation of the Law.

[@jacopoarmini7889]

what I find sad is that God and the angels are associated to evil, while angels like Michael should be fighting against tyrants, not supporting them, but I guess that the people of Japan were so twisted in their need for a "man of providence" to save them, that God and the angels have taken a malicious form in their mind.

[@jsj0520]

I forget where I got my interpretation from but I like the idea that satan was the one to give humanity free will “chaos” but of course too much chaos is a bad thing so you balance it with god and “law” I’m not a religious person myself but thinking about that is very interesting

[@3Waifu]

That is a really cool take! I haven't dabbled too much in mainline SMT but from what I understand that seems like it lines up with the Chaos/Law alignments in those games so I'm sure that has had some influence over persona!

[@jsj0520]

@@3Waifu yeah, especially since joker with satanael "frees" the world from the constriction of order at the end

[@laflemmeinfuse5443]

I am not religious or anything, but I think there's more to it than just a criticism of Abrahamic religions and their use as a means of control as a whole (which still stands though). It feels more like a mix of Abrahamic and Gnostic mythology. Ialdabaoth is a major figure in Gnosticism, being the equivalent to the Christian Demiurge (God), and Satanael is, in Gnosticism, the second son of that same god who bestowed freedom to humanity and cast them away from Ialdabaoth. This symbolism is even stronger with Royal, since the First Son is Adam, created by Ialdabaoth from the primordial Man.

[@3Waifu]

I agree with this interpretation, I would have liked to delve a little deeper into that but I got a bit too focused on the angels I think. That said, however, if gnostic lore is something you are interested in, I highly recommend checking out my video on Azathoth. I talk a bit about Maruki's gnostic influence specifically for his persona Adam Kadmon.

[@Kaibaka]

You really handled talking how these topics very well cause people can get so side tracked on either offending people or buttering up things, you got my sub :P

[@LeahLovesNature]

I think any religious person in their right mind can still admit to all the harm that organized religion, especially people acting in the name of Abrahamic religions, has done to the world, justifying everything from genocide to slavery. So as a lifelong Christian, seeing the protagonist of a video game use an interpretation of Satan to shoot "God" in the face doesn't offend me. Also, I commented what I'm about to say on another video on a different channel, but given how fond you are of symbolism and analysis, I think you would really appreciate this fan theory of mine. This might be me overthinking things, but I think there's a hidden parallel between the heroes and villains in Persona 5. You know how each of the palace bosses represents one of the seven deadly sins? Well, what if (and I know some of these connections are tenuous, but I'll try my best to explain them) each of the human Phantom Thieves secretly represents one of the seven heavenly virtues? This fits pretty well with the whole “disguise” motif of the game: the villains are sin disguised as virtue, while the Phantom Thieves are virtue disguised as sin. Hope = Ann (She joins the Phantom Thieves because she wants to give people courage, and courage is a virtue in and of itself, but I think what she really provides is hope, as she shows that people can move on from something as traumatic as being sexually preyed on by a teacher. This is especially clear as she watches her friend Shiho recovering from her suicide attempt, and from this she finds the hope that things will get better, which she then passes on to the people the team helps.) Faith = Futaba (After her mother's death, she was convinced that her mother hated her, and the shady people's lies convinced her that no one could ever love her and she didn't deserve to live. She lost faith in her mother, herself, and I think also the goodness of humanity and the meaning and value of life, retreating to her room and living vicariously through the Internet. But with help from the Phantom Thieves, she gets that faith back. Also, aside from Joker, she seems to have the strongest connection to gods, what with the whole Egyptian pyramid motif of her palace.) Charity = Haru (Being from a wealthy family, she is in the best position to be generous, but even disregarding that, she is kind to everyone she meets and is always looking for ways to help others, from her teammates to the employees of her father's company, all the way down to her plants. Heck, she took Morgana in as just a stray cat and continued to help him even though it brought her into a new and dangerous world.) Prudence = Makoto (Prudence is associated with wisdom, self-discipline, and insight, and she is the most rational person on the team, acting as an advisor in the Metaverse and as a top student in reality. She is also very strategic when it comes to how she acts and composes herself in the face of her everyday adversaries, like the principal and her older sister.) Fortitude = Ryuji (Fortitude is associated with courage, endurance, and perseverance; he has had to endure a lot, becoming a scapegoat and being labeled as a delinquent for standing up to an unfair teacher, but he is one of the first characters to awaken to his persona. He decides very early on that he isn't going to let the evil adults of the world walk all over him, and he will stand up to anyone and anything he thinks is wrong despite what they say about him because of it. Also, he is often the first one to rush into danger to protect the others, and whenever someone else suggests giving up, he refuses.) Temperance = Yusuke (Temperance is associated with conscience and humility, and he has a very strong sense of what he believes is right and wrong. Sometimes he does think rather highly of himself and his abilities, but as soon as someone points out that he made a mistake or his judgment is off, he is quick to rein himself back in. He lives by very modest means, sometimes even foregoing food for the sake of art. We see from very early on that the last thing he wants is to become the egotistical money-grubber that his mentor was, and he recognizes that his role as an artist is not to show off his own greatness, but to portray/amplify the beauty of his subjects.) Justice = Akira/Ren (As the leader of the Phantom Thieves, he is the embodiment of the justice for which they fight. He has been wronged by the world from the very start of the game, and he continues to be wronged by the world as a phantom thief, but this only pushes him to fight harder and give the evildoers of the world what they deserve, which in turn provides the good citizens of the world with the freedom and peace they deserve. I know Akechi is the Justice confidant in the game, but I'm not including him here because his sense of justice is incredibly warped.)

[@neoncreator]

I think u might be on to something

[@weedleisopcute3626]

Hmmmmmmmmmm

[@dig1taltoaster]

Awesome was looking forward to see another video

[@neoncreator]

img lad that someone actually pointed this out, nice video

[@jaysutter9934]

First of all, love this channel, especially the persona compendium videos. But I can't help but feel like this one misses the point a bit. While I think you are correct on some of the basic symbolism, I don't think P5 is actually anti-religion. In fact, the only time real-life religion shows up (during Yusuke's confidant) it is portrayed positively. Besides, abrahamic religion is just not really a major presence in Japan so I doubt the devs really have anything against it. Like you said, in P5, heaven and gods are symbolism for the establishment and society's power structures, but I don't think it's against religion itself. Another thing to point out is that the final act of the game is based more on Gnosticism rather than Judaism or Christianity. Yaldobaoth is not the judeo-christian God, he is actually a false-deity in Gnosticism who who claims to be the ultimate creator god and therefore tries to rule humanity. Also, it's worth pointing out that Joker has at least as many parallels with Jesus as he does with satan. Joker is an outcast of society who gathers a group of disciples, one of them betrays him and leads to his capture and "death". Both become heroes to the masses before suddenly being turned upon by them. I may be reading too deeply into that part but I am pretty sure some gnostics considered Jesus and Satanael to be the same being anyway. But in the end, I don't think the game is anti-religion, it just uses gnostic imagery as a metaphor for rebellion against society. Thank you for coming to my ted talk

[@hussienahmed9163]

I know I'm very late but this what i was thinking hence this is a golden comment @@AhhZeeOww2.0

[@chuguvsme]

This is the second time SMT games have Satan kill God or a Godlike.. However, Satan is God's Judge, not his opposite.

[@lord_bozo]

I have to mostly disagree with you here. Mostly. While rebellion is definitely A theme in P5, THE MAIN theme is Reality VS Perception. That’s the MAIN reason why you fight Yaldabaoth. P5 doesn’t have any bones to pick with any religion. Remember when we fought Wakaba? That sphinx wasn’t actually her, that was Futabas fake perception of Wakaba that was implanted into her mind. Real Wakaba and Futabas Wakaba become two separate entities. It’s similar with Yaldabaoth. Yaldabaoth is not in the Bible. He is the gnostic perception (or VERSION) of God in the Bible. Similar with Satanel and Satan. For the people who followed the gnostic belief system a long ago, Yaldablov is seen as evil and represented fakeness, while Satael represented truth and reality. The Archangels that you fight before Yaldabaoth are also not entirely from the Bible. Many of their stories come from gnostic text or text outside of the Bible canon, and most Christians and Jews are unsure of their existence or consider them to be fake. The personas and shadows are perceptions. Exaggerated and sometimes/somewhat fake forms of real entities. The archangels are fake perceptions trying to protect the God of fakeness, Yaldabaoth. There are also other parts of the game that show it doesn’t see religion as a method of control. The scenes at the Church and Temples would not be as well received by the Phantom Thieves. As you know, each Palace represents one of the 7 deadly sins, while each character represents one of the 7 heavenly virtues, if the game had a problem with religion this should be flipped to then to oppose Heaven. Instead of fighting demons like Azazel, Asmodeus, Bael and Leviathan the epitome of rebellion, we should be fighting Angles and servants of YHVH instead. Sataniel is not Satan, and Yaldabaoth is not “God” (YHVH). He is the God of fakeness, from a fake version of Christianity, in Mementos - the world of fakeness, in a fake video game. THAT’S the subtext, and THAT’S what P5 has more of a bone to pick with: Fake, incomplete, and distorted perceptions, and the damage and power it has to the masses.

[@AdachiSimp]

Tbh the first heaven war began when Lucifer, donning the sin of Pride, wanted to be bigger or equal to god. Basically he thought: "why do we need to be servants of our creator?". The war in heaven happened, Michael spearheaded God's army and Lucifer lost. Basically, in a twisted way, Joker is rebelling against the fake god like Lucifer rebelled against god.

[@ShadowDisorder]

As much as I agree with your analysis I would be hard pressed to call it "anti-religious" as the game is both thematically and literally delving into Christian Gnosticism. Gnosticism is a branch of early Christiantiy where they believed that the current Christian God is a False God, created to manipulate humans into greed and the deadly sins, and that only through rebellion can the False God, and the system that upholds his power, be defeated. This is really the story of the game, not representing anti-religious themes but a rather a very important sect of Christianity. Moreover even if the game did have that theme, it wouldn't be against religion in the sense of all religions, but rather mainstream western Christianity.

[@3Waifu]

This is a really cool take and I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you said! I'm actually somewhat familiar with gnosticism and I talk a bit about it in last week's video on Azathoth/Adam Kadmon. If you're interested in those things you may enjoy that video! Let me know what you think if you watch it!

[@maaster4394]

To expand on Shadow's point, P5 does take more inspiration from Gnosticism than it does from typical Judeo-Christianity. One thing to keep in mind is that Gnosticism did challenge Judeo-Christian understanding of the God of the Old-Testament, as Shadow has said, and it has been deemed as heresy in the past. In Gnosticism, the True God (Monad) emanates through a series of stages, becoming progressively more material and embodied. Various emanations of Monad are called 'Aeons', the lowest emanation being called Sophia. In most interpretations, Sophia births the Demiurge, (False God). As a result, she was exiled from the Pleroma (centre of Divine Life) for her desire to create something outside of the Divine Totality, but could only form a monstrosity of imperfections, an abortion full of pride and malevolence. When she created the Demiurge, she was ashamed by it; to hide her folly from the Pleroma, she created a great cloud around him and built him a throne. With no awareness of the Pleroma or the Monad, from which all things were derived, the Demiurge concluded it was the creator of all things. And so, it fabricated the physical universe and the physical aspect of humanity in arrogance, with the intention of punishing those who do not adhere to his rule (as shown when he malevontly decided to keep the souls of mankind bound to the material world, as of spite to the Monad). Gnosticism portrays Yaldabaoth as an inferior "evil" god who created the world who appears as the "God" of the Old Testament. According to the Apocryphon of John in the Gnostic faith, the Demiurge has three known names: Yaldabaoth, Salkas (translated to "fool"), and Samael, sometimes also the 'Son of Chaos'. Throughout the game, we see the Demiurge in these forms, through the final boss of vanilla, Yaldabaoth, Salkas being the fake Igor (Fool Social Link), and Samael being Shido (when you identify him during his battle his full name is Masayoshi Samael Shido). So where does Satanael come in? In some Gnostic Traditions, it is said that he served the Demiurge, but rebelled against him when he realised he wasn't the Monad, and he granted humanity the free will to be able to liberate themselves from it. So, when Satanael does fire Sinful Shell at Yaldy, it's more of a 'I know the True God, and you're not Him'. Hope this helped

[@Apollo_Agni]

The "Hidden" subtext is about as obvious as the kid who says "you can't see me my eyes are closed" during hide and seek

[@matmil5]

I feel similar way to Sam Z here. especially since persona 5 royal message is not quite... universal. In which i mean, it kind of does not take to the consideration the ultimatums. Sure, it is about power of human choice and it's effect and yet at the same time does not take in the consideration that choice is sometimes, if not most often in more pessimistic scenarios, out of the question. It does not explore the "What if rebellion is actually fruitless" theme. Like with death, you rebel against death? Tough luck, you won't win no matter what. On top of that, funnily enough practising Judeo Christian religions was, once upon a time, a form of rebelion as well. And with how many people are atheist or even antitheist nowadays... didn't it make the whole circle by now? To believe something that masses refuse to believe? To all that, Yaldadadawhatever, his name is heccin hard to spell, as well as Maruki are both referred to as false gods, rather than "True" ones. Demirurges if you will. They in the end, both of them, originated from humanity. Both from desires and emotions. People gave them power, rather than Them giving power to people. So that's also feed for thought. All in all, it is very easy to combat the "Modern satanic" context because of how easily undermined by before mentioned points of mine it can be. It's clearly about humans versus humans, rather than main series shin magami tensei games, where it is humans versus supernatural. If you read all of it, thank you!

[@brightlight8852]

I don't think that it's negative towards Christianity but rather it's mirroring the gnosticism. Yaldaboth is not God but rather a pretender, the true devil one would say. That pretends to be God itself and tricks even the a angels into believing that he is their maker. But unlike how he tricked the player into thinking that he is the real Igor. Just like how the villains trick everyone into believing that they are the deal deal. Over the course of the game you have the villains reveal themselves to the public which then goes against the villains and judges them for their crimes, not unlike how you can get angels on your side to battle Yaldaboth and judge him for his crimes.

[@quadc0014]

great video but why were you using vorpal blade against singular enemies

[@3Waifu]

This footage was from a ng+ run I think so I was probably just messing around, although this was recorded like a long time ago so I'm not totally sure lol

[@myheroandmadaralover2372]

@@3Waifu to be fair ir mot a end game demon so i don't blame you even if you have megdolna and 5 other ways of doing it spaming allmight attacks after a while is boring

[@canchanyyuki]

I really like these videos they're very interesting and informative. Could you do Morgana? Zorro is Probably my favourite Rebel Hero after Robin Hood.

[@backstagephantom27]

Looking at all the other SMT games we usually see the use of law and chaos. Law being personified as gif and chaos the devil. I would say this was that same trope only we were guided down the path of chaos and the only way to pick law is to side with fake Igor. While yes religion is strongly referenced I feel it’s more of a law chaos thing going on. Great video non the less. Can’t wait to see what you make next.

[@angelsebastiangb7670]

I always loved the original ending of P5, just the fact that you battle 4 of the main archangels of the bible before you fight God is simply amazing, and also at the end you shot said God with a bullet made from the 7 deadly sins, which were represented by the previous palaces, and also, the final battle is on Christmas Eve, the night that Jesus is born, I just wanted to point that out. Btw, I was born in an Catholic family (heck, my first name is "Ángel") but I've always been a little distant with the church, and when I played P5 (which would soon become my favorite videogame) and saw all the religious references, I was pretty happy, I've always liked the religion but despised the church. So it's just those little things that makes me love the game even more 🤠. P.S: Great video! You won a new subscriber 😄

[@ion7698]

Same here, I agree with everything you said. I wasn’t born in a religious family, but I do believe in spirituality and god, but I also do not like how churches control things and believe that god isn’t limited to a singular “religion”

[@xCaptainChloex]

Hi! I'd love to see a video about the skills you can use in the game. They also contain deep meaning, including the past Persona games.

[@Juan-bx5rq]

Thanks for wasting my time, telling me that writers use concepts of good and evil to write a story about good and evil

[@guilhermecolombocontiro7885]

Well some people say that while angels are god's right hand than demons are his left hands, that demiurge is no god and i dout that those "angels" that we fight are any Better , i think that the message this game game also brings is tho seek trough lies so that the real answers may be found, god is merciful while the demiurge is not

[@TheMetaKid]

Nice video, but the point is rather simple. I was hoping you'd talk a lot more about the final palace, since I feel that there's definitely more depth to the perspectives taken there. (Sure, we can rebel against god, but what IS god? Why should we rebel against god? What's so bad about accepting the reality that god gives us? The third semester really goes into these themes more I feel.)

[@3Waifu]

These are really interesting topics that I am open to exploring more! It isn't exactly one to one and you may have already seen it but my persona compendium on Azathoth kinda goes into that territory although in more of an explorative and informational way rather than analytical as the video is focused on the persona. Anyway if you watch it let me know what you think!

[@TheMetaKid]

@@3Waifu I do remember that one actually! Your videos are right up my alley I need to watch more of them. I can see the connection now that you mention it, though I'd still like to see the final palace analyzed through a deeper religious analogy rather than lovecraftian analysis (which was still mega neat btw). Also I just realized that if you do decide to go in a direction that compares that final palace to religion, maybe give a good look at Adam Kadmon too since it seems like it might be relevant since he's supposed to be a perfect creation of god and all. The entire palace has a lot of themes of perfectionism now that I think about it. Sorry for rambling. Love your vids!

[@3Waifu]

@@TheMetaKid I'm glad you're enjoying the videos! I'm definitely interested in exploring the final palace more thematically and I'd love to delve deeper into some of the gnostic mysticism that I talked about in that previous video since it is particularly relevant to Adam Kadmon as well as other aspects of the third semester!

[@tastethecock5203]

Justice arcana in P5 is mostly comprised of Divine/Herald demons in megaten, which is a very law aligned faction. And to put it very lightly - angels are kind of an assholes. Yes, they are good option if y ou are willing to be a submissive servant who never steps out of line because they promise security and prosperity, but they've ready to commit literal genocide upon everyone else. I disagree that angels or any other biblical figures are especially powerful compared to other arcana or mythology. Some highter tier personas such as Metatron are p powerful, but then again, most of higher end personas are powerful, be it from Bible, Shinto, or Norse. I don't think they've ar eespecially powerful or anything.

[@ClvrBstrd]

Great Video Did Like

[@rainoftime37]

I'll say this every time someone says something like this, but taking the fact that you summon Satan to shoot God in the face to save Christmas is such a funny thing to take out of context but makes perfect sense in this game LMAO

[@Skeletone56]

Isn’t yaldabaoth technically a false god? I mean he was created by us being lazy so technically he is a false god.

[@keng3162]

Keep going my man

[@marcusbullock2753]

As someone who was raised to be a Christians it always confuses me as to why some religions are usually deemed as bad. When in reality it may not be the religion itself is the issue but rather the people behind it and abuse its nature. At least that’s how I take it. But in games like this I always slightly took offense to it only because most Japanese games of culture only see them as an obstacle rather than a support. It would be cool to see a game where it flips sides and sees the good in these things too. Because like in everything there is good and there is evil. And that includes religion as well. I just Hope P6 as ironic as the number is may have a cool change in aspect and instead of fighting some God like being we could fight some Demonic like creature and use a God like being to take a Demonic one down or some such.

[@hannah4588]

I am not sure if the writers are against religion or not but I think the whole idea of joker's persona being Satanel who fights against a god is to show the ultimate form of rebellion. The phantoms literally rebelled against the strongest entity and won the fight. I think it symbolizes freedom and doing what you believe is right which are both core messages of p5.

[@stanDman291]

I'm not religious, but I have this game

[@gogmagaming33]

Isn’t Satanael not Satan tho? I thought Satanael was a different fallen angel

[@justcallmemilk5295]

Thats a common misconception. Satan isn’t actually a fallen angel. The only recorded biblical instance of rebellious angels comes from the book of Enoch which has since been removed from the “official biblical cannon.” Satanael is meant to be the form of lucifer before he got kicked out of heaven. Basically he’s just a revamp of Helel from previous entries. For more info I recommend Hochelaga’s video on the origins of Lucifer: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZSXaH16otWKqpI

[@MetatronsRevenge613]

Considering how you can use this religious inspired Personas to YOUR advantage. I don't think its all negative. I am Jewish and a person against religious oppression but I think it isn't quite religion bad but instead religion can be bad when used by tyranny

[@ryuquaza]

Idk why you put "Hidden" in here because there is religous subtext in every single SMT game

[@EN-mh4og]

As I see it p5 criticism is about blind faith and obedience. Plus small detail I love is that the "god" came from "hell" and demon descent from heaven

[@raymond2125]

Man If you think P5 has a bone to pick with religion, you have never played SMT Devil survivor. In that game the angels are... Well... To try my best to avoid spoilers. Literal Jackasses. Especially God.

[@shadowstar8619]

And have you SEEN all of the angels' SMT IV designs? You'd think the design team was highjacked by Lovecraft!

[@sonic23233]

You punish a god

[@shareefhaddad2377]

But what if, in a future Persona or SMT project, you fight the “stereotypical atheistic” image of God, i.e., a spaghetti monster, as the final boss? Maybe it could be a spaghetti monster in the shape of a giant brain with three sets of wings(top: angelic/ middle: mechanical/ bottom: demonic)!

[@crystallily1]

Was thinking about royal trio parallels with Adam, Eve and Adams first wife in some stories Lilith in third semester but I’ll confess that may lean slightly into my own shipping territory. I think it’s interesting nevertheless

[@hiarus8850]

I'm curious, what are the parallels you see?

[@Zahri8Alang]

Evil is within us, it even had video game made

[@SegaSonic666]

Killing god is basically what happens in Persona games. 3, 4 & 5 follow the same formula. You play as a persona who moves into a new town and you have a year to do stuff and in the final battle you kill god. P5S also had you kill one.

[@KatMorningstar3]

I was born under a Christian-Catholic Hispanic family and I definitely had moments of severe opression and mild trauma throughout my early life because of it. Every time I went to any Christian or Catholic church, the *energies* there always made me unwelcome, like I never belonged there. More recently, I have become a Witchcraft practicioner and had more Pagan beliefs. I've never felt more at home, honestly. I kind of use symbols of Satanism as a form of rebelling from the False life I've had with Abrahamic religions that has caused me quite the despair in my childhood. Having introduced myself to the SMT franchise recently by beating P5R for the first time, I really felt like the game couldn't come in a better time of my life like right now, I'm even happier that it even has a character who I resonate with to the core (Ann Takamaki), who's Ultimate Persona, to my pleasant surprise, happens to be the Goddess I worship and pray to now. :))

[@Snowy_is_sad]

I would love to worship and prey to Célestine as well 😳

[@jonathancapps1103]

@3Waifu Have you played any of the other Persona games? Any SMT games? I can see this view from someone who's only played P5.

[@aleph__9204]

Religion is one of the main themes from smt, so do persona It really cannot be ignored

[@godofgames1781]

6:31 Excuse me what

[@Perdix64]

I sorta don’t like the name of Gabriel.

[@rawrdino7046]

I don't think you know what secret means

[@slauthordraws3363]

ATTACK & DETHRONE GOD

[@landis9767]

i thought this was obvious...

[@AlexCole272]

It’s all demonic at the end of the day. They use Anime and light hearted to promote the game, don’t matter how you slice the pie, it’s all demonic and terrible to use that theme. They could’ve conveyed the message so many ways without making people feel uncomfortable, but they decided to attack Christianity with it. I didn’t get rebellion message throughout the whole game, so that was terrible ending message to use.

[@DeusVult12_]

As a born again Christian,I absolutely see what you are trying to say,I understand the message however,but believe due to how ambiguous yet volatile in nature this topic is,it is possibly dangerous /disregards religion

[@stovespiegel]

>hidden subtext >you fucking shoot god in the head with a giant gun

[@flyingteasaucer]

Pssst, Kid. Ever heard of a Shin Megami Tensei? ;)

[@thesmilyguyguy9799]

:)

[@hoanganphanle]

God, Yahweh himself, was depicted to be kinda oppressive in the Bible, let alone in the SMT series where he's a literal control freak. Although to be clear, I believe Atlus avoided using Yahweh in P5 instead of making it blatant like the original SMT series, so they picked Yaldabaoth instead, a false god who convinced himself that he is the true ruler. Lucifer/Helel is the one representing rebellious will, in the original SMT series he occasionally even congrats the protag should they REFUSE his offer, since he believes the most admirable trait of man is the ability to walk their own path. Satan/Satanael, is another story tho, he is the Judge of heaven. Even though he is the Demon Lord, originally he was in charge of judging whether humanity is deserving of God's gratitude. Here, Satanael judged if God deserves to rule over humanity, which is poetic in its own way. Morgana put it best: If a God plays naughty, then it's the Demon Lord's duty to punish him. The religious things in the Persona series and the SMT series as a whole is a quite fresh take on the will of man. Even my friend, who is a Christian, found it to be a very interesting and note-worthy take

[@KirbyFever]

I’m not totally sure what you could mean here by calling God a control freak but it’s not about him forcing us to do what he wants it’s that he wants to help us from facing consequences everything else leads to bad things and there is only one thing that helps lead to good things it may seem like it being forceful but it’s not it’s basically how the world is

[@hoanganphanle]

@@KirbyFever in the SMT series, YHWH is often depicted to be very cruel, unforgiving, and if things don't go the way he wants it to go, he will immediately destroy it. In SMT II, he tried to destroy the world as his judgement, leading to Satan judging him as unfit to be the ruler. In SMT IV Apocalypse, he splitted Satan into Lucifer and Merkabah to create an endless battle so that he will rule forever. That's why I called him a control freak in the SMT series

[@KirbyFever]

@@hoanganphanle Oh i see yeah in the SMT, series ngl they do make him look bad

[@hoanganphanle]

@@KirbyFever yeah that's why I said in the SMT series specifically. YHWH in the Bible was just a little oppressive in a way but never too tyrannical or too malevolent.

[@KirbyFever]

@@hoanganphanle I never noticed him being oppressive it would be interesting to see why you said this is it okay to know why?

[@Boggs-pn4tg]

Hidden? You kill god on Christmas Eve, and then later practically fight Jesus

[@telstartelstar]

"nothing in persona 5 was done without consideration" okay then explain the homophobia. As well as the blatant fanservice after an entire dungeon denouncing the sexual exploitation of minors.

[@untoucheddiguise]

It's funny how you say you're not trying to turn people into Satanist, because I am a practicing Satanist and P5 is actually one of, if not the, biggest inspirations for me becoming one. Just to be clear I'm a member of The Satanic Temple, NOT the Church of Satan. There are different sects just like with most religions. The symbolism of having Angels and God represent oppression and authoritarianism, and Demons representing Rebellion and free will always spoke to me, and the way P5 employs that symbolism has done a lot to help shape and articulate my morale viewpoint.

[@waifu27]

can you do a loki video? i think that would be pretty cool