The High Thumb Position: Learning Old School Violin Technique.

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[@RobertPadgett]

This is definitely a thumbs up presentation.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

This is a thumbs up comment

[@deadmanswife3625]

😁🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@michelevolz7769]

Lol

[@lisaforsyth5688]

Wow. I’ve been self teaching for a year and I thought my thumb was wrong. Turns out I was kicking it old school

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

So long as the violin neck is not resting in the webbing between the thumb and first finger, you are not (likely) doing something wrong

[@christopherbonds9553]

Great explanation! It's a whole exposition on what Milstein said: "Hold it with your HAND!"

[@violinbuff3782]

The great old players held the violin with their hand. Often, they also crawled up the violin in shifting, feeling all in between and with flexibility in the web and fingers.. The other very important aspect in shifting up a long arpeggio is that the thumb gently pushes the fiddle to the left allowing the hand to go simply up and down as the violin travels to the left on its upward trajectory. This is why it is important when using a shoulder rest not to stop the violin's movement to the left while ascending. It's easily done by clamping down. Remember, the shoulder rest is a lever. Great, if you do not need one, though, it is the norm today and some really excellent shoulder rest players. Be careful! Respect for your fine advice and just putting out some personal observations. Oscar Shumsky was my great Dad, and he played violin as well as a 17-inch viola. No one played better, and, as mentioned above, Dad held the violin or viola with his hand. I watched him close up for nearly 50 years. Like Milstein, Heifetz, or Oistrakh, he would also often release his neck to always keep it open and free. Enough pressure to hold the fiddle in place, but never an excess. Bravo on your fine site. Eric Shumsky

[@cheekychiko]

Thank you for this video. I am a violin teacher too. As The UK is currently in COVID19 lockdown, I have spent the last 2 weeks working out how to play without a shoulder rest and position my thumb correctly. I am very please with the result as my intonation (especially Double stops) is more secure and reliable and my sound improved dramatically. I have more control over my technique, it is a lovely feeling. I am so glad to see that my conclusion of where to place the thumb is exactly the same as your explanation!

[@violincarlos829]

Ô

[@richardsvarghese7157]

I have been thinking that it was a manufacturing defect that i couldn't put thumb under violin.. Now im happy 🤣🤣🤣

[@nayrdinuir4753]

Thank you so much for presenting this option for holding the violin. You presented the information very thoroughly indeed. I love when you show us violin players from long ago. Thank you again and keep up the excellent work.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Thanks again for watching and letting me know you appreciated it! And if there is another topic you’d like me to cover, always let me know!

[@santuit]

This is wonderful. This is a very important aspect of technique. As a Heifetz student from his Heifetz Masterclasses I appreciate this very important point. Thank you.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Thank you very much!! I watched some of your playing. It means a lot coming from someone of your caliber

[@Weikiat9]

My shoulder hurt like mad as i use my neck to hold too much. Will start learning how to hold with left hand more. Thanks for teaching

[@procarpenter1788]

You are an excellent, articulate, enthusiastic teacher. I am very very impressed to see these qualities in anyone, let alone in someone so young. Thank you for this excellent video.

[@officephile7968]

Wow, this really helped me in a big way! I'm learning the viola with a large hand EXCEPT the 4th finger which is very short - out of proportion to the rest of the hand. I'm aware that standard advice to violists with short 4th fingers is to place the thumb more towards the 2nd finger rather than the 1st. So, I've been trying to do that but it didn't really seem to help much...UNTIL I saw this video on the High Thumb Position. Yes, that did the trick! (Previously I'd been trying it with the thumb much lower on the neck) No more flat notes on the 4th finger in 1st position, and not only that, now I've got a nice curve on the 4th finger so it feels more agile and dexterous. So, a very big thank you Tobiah Murphy. You don't know how much you've helped me. And I've been scouring KZbin for help for the last few months and couldn't find anything that helped until I saw you video. As far as I know, yours is the only video on this subject matter.

[@kelvinlui7796]

I can’t think any words to express my greatest appreciation to your teaching. It is a great tutorial which completely opened a new way for me to play my vibrato and shifting without shoulder rest. Thank you very much🙏🏻

[@pa4tim]

As a guitarist I find this more easy, I often play like this on my guitar too

[@FiddleCat999]

Thank you! I will definitely experiment with this! I'm an older player with past neck injury and arthritis. So much emphasis when I was young was on "correct" technique and position. Now it's about how to keep playing as well as I can for as long as I can!

[@TheOwenValentine]

Awesome 🎻🙏🏽 I met Mr Ricci when I was 23 yrs old. I had a chance to watch him practice and play for a few days… So organic and relaxed! And his hands felt like a cats paw…pliable and soft. Keep sharing great content!

[@pupilparticipation8556]

I have played the violin for over 50 years with a high thumb and thought it was something I shouldn't really be doing. It was so good to find your video last night and discover that what I was doing a) had a name, and b) was something people aspired to. I will be doing your arm vibrato exercises though to improve the consistency of my vibrato - husband has already told me that if I am going to shake anything it needs to be quieter than the aspirin container I used this morning - I have replaced with salt to save his sanity!

[@davidfelber]

I am so deeply grateful to you for this video. I play viola without shoulder rest or chin rest, primarily for tone but also to avoid that locked-in experience of holding the instrument with chin and collarbone, which I’ve never been comfortable with. You’ve opened up a new world of fluid technique for me. Especially by pivoting the high thumb toward the instrument's neck after bringing it between 1st and 2nd fingers. You are my hero, sir.

[@claraartnow6645]

I haven't seen another violin channel that breaks down violin technique with such detail as yours. Congratulations and thank you for all these helpful videos! Keep the good job!

[@debracranwell6499]

Wow, thank you very much! I am an elder student with many years of piano background. I have been playing violin for 2 months and I have wanted to avoid shoulder rests and find a more healthy way to play and support the violin. I am thrilled to put my thumb to work. Leopold Auer should have included the thumb technique in his book "Playing as I teach it". He assumed that the world would always play with the left hand supporting the violin. Still working first position,, but now with greater support. Thank you, Deb .

[@wildfeather]

I am a retired tile and marble mastercraftsman violinist. Arthritis in my left hand makes the "pinching" posture painful. By default I am doing exactly as your tutorial suggests. I don't have a problem with it for all the reasons you mentioned. The only problem I have is all the bad press this position receives from the violin community. Thank you for liberating violinists. I am also six two with a fairly large hand with long fingers. Thanks again.

[@Alucard33592]

As a guitarist also picking up violin, I find the high thumb position the most natural, playing without a shoulder rest is probably a big part of it, the one that came with my violin just isn't comfortable enough to bother with so I just never use it, glad to see that the high thumb isnt going to be a problem I always fall into it when I play stuff that I find more difficult

[@ritabanerjee9103]

This video, just as useful as all others. This gave an answer to questions I've been having lately regarding thumb position. Lucidly explained. Thank you.

[@marcvilleneuve1889]

The high position of the left thumb ( ex Perlman) is suitable for violinists who do not use a shoulder pad. Kreisler and Neveu are other examples of high thumb position. Great post.

[@Shedlight420]

Thank you for sharing.

[@tamilrogeon1059]

Thanks for this! I have had to discover (just recently) this for my self after watching some of the old greats. I have large hands and have always struggled to find a nice shape until I adjusted my thumb to a high position! I wish I saw this 15 years ago!

[@masintec]

thank you very much, I just tried to play without shoulder rest recently. My thumb up when I play fast passages, which scared me. I was shocked by my thumb and thought it could do harm to me. Your explanation comfort me so much!

[@indaygarutayytchannelandvl8398]

Thank you very much, very informative❤️

[@FCarraro1]

Love this. I've ditched my shoulder rest a couple of years ago (I'm a violist) and never used a pad or a cushion despite having a very long neck and very sloped shoulders. I've learnt holding the instrument with my hand entirely but there are a lot of inputs here I'm going to try soon! I would have quoted even Menuhin in the video, he was one of the violinists that used these kind of techniques the most! cheers x

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

I keep getting a lot of references to Menuhin from commenters. He was a very thoughtful violinist when it came to technique. After all, he nearly had to re-teach himself in his 20s

[@gailrivas762]

I love your videos!!! I learned violin before Suzuki was popular. One kid in our school was learning it and he didn’t play with the orchestra. I also have never used a shoulder rest. These videos are very validating for me. Thanks!

[@apostasiaelegcho5612]

Have played like this for 40 years. Excellent presentation. However, I don't use a chin rest, either.

[@markbarnett5525]

I am self teaching; and I tried all of the various thumb positions. I too noticed the old school thumb. You video lesson is this huge confirmation for me. on this issue You, however, explained much more detail than I was able to observe! Wonderful!!!!! And thank you ever so much!!!!!

[@ChristoGroenewald]

great video really, thanks

[@abigailcrossman3373]

Brilliant video- an absolute game changer for me. I’m a professional violist and was already doing this on viola (without realising) by necessity to facilitate the left hand. I now do lots of teaching violin and violin playing and after this video realised that when I played violin, my thumb for some reason was underneath the neck. By consciously becoming aware of my thumb and directing the contact point to the joint, my intonation, shifting and stretch has dramatically improved- after the initial weird sensation, it now feels so obvious and easy. So even as a professional, when I already know most things or can work them out myself, sometimes an external reminder is invaluable. I’ve seen loads of your videos about left hand but far fewer about bowing- would be very interested in your ideas about right hand as I consider the bow to be the magic wand for violin playing.

[@johnalexander301]

Excellent

[@william-michaelcostello7776]

This what Kato Havas taught too.People used to say to me , because of my high thumb that I was doing „Gypsie.“ Well then the old time greats were doing it too. What I miss here is the flexibility of the wrist. You have to be able to move it back and forth. Great video.

[@erzas556]

Man I only saw one video for you about the posture and I already fixed my rising shoulder. Keep going ❤

[@axlcrush1954]

Thanks for this. The wedging thing that I found myself doing, and others not doing, got me thinking if I was putting my thumb too far up. Now I feel more normal.

[@kristintripp967]

I’m so glad to see this video because this is how I do it, lol. I used to try to “fix” it, but doing it the other way felt so cumbersome and unstable, so I kept defaulting back to this. When I started learning vibrato I especially thought I needed to incorporate the other way, but after watching videos of various current soloists (such as Ray Chen), I abandoned that idea again and have just stuck with this position. It’s nice to have confirmation that this is a legitimate way to play that doesn’t need to be fixed! 😅

[@nicholashill9302]

Nice one I never knew. Better 4th finger and g string already! Thanks

[@QuintetoGrande]

Muy buena explicación!!! Tocar el violín sin soporte ( shoulder rest) es maravilloso !!!

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

I’m just happy I know enough Latin root words to understand what you wrote, haha

[@franciscoaguirre6898]

Ricci knew a lots of this shortcuts in detail. I think all the great masters knew this technique. But I'm convinced Ricci explains it in clear way in his trateatise Left Hand Technique. The Glissando technique. I noticed that when you shift down the shoulder engages and moves helping during the glissando and thus you achieve a clean landing. Adding a pad is better. This is the old secret, great stuff!

[@alexkuamoo3874]

To my fellow small hand violinists, I urge you to try this. It has allowed my fourth finger to stay arched and my overall hand frame to relax.

[@jacc88888]

Interesting video. I think this high thumb position might help my baroque violin playing.

[@jordigutierrez4161]

My hands are way too small to try something like this. This is actually the way I used to play, and it gave me a good bold sound but it gave me certain weaknesses that my hands were to small to compensate for. My wrist was collapsed and my vibrato non existent aside from when I would rattle my hand side to side to mimic vibrato which kinda worked and it made shifting for me much more difficult. I only realized that I might be doing something wrong but it was when I saw a video of Midori goto playing Bach that I noticed the way she held her violin. I googled how big her hands were and started to mimic her the way she held her violin and it got rid of a lot of the tension I had in my left hand and now I’m slowly learning vibrato after 9 years of faking it. Some of u with regular to big hands don’t know how good you’ve got it.

[@irisgirl86music14]

My experience is the same as yours since I have smaller hands, and especially on viola (I play both violin and viola), my thumb must be on the underside of the neck or else I risk serious hand strain. What I will say though is that if you have large hands and/or a lengthy thumb, adopting a higher thumb may be the way to go. It's not something I want to be very dogmatic about.

[@zsuzsannatorma5031]

I have the same experiences as I also have quite small hands and not that long fingers. For me and also for my students with similar hands like mine, this thumb position just cause hand strains.

[@yeshoua7777]

Thanks you ! Now I can vibrate or shift without shoulder rest but still some problem with 4th finger

[@haydn8583]

Thank you for this video. Always up for trying new ways to improve. I've been having a lot of trouble with my trills and also trying to do a wrist vibrato (arm came more naturally to me). Although this is taking some time to get used to. I found immediately that this thumb position in particular has really helped with the speed of my trills, and also makes the wrist vibrato come more natural. I feel maybe because its made the arch of my finger to the board much smaller so the trills require less strain on the forearm maybe?

[@aegeanenjoyer668]

Chuanyun Li uses this grip, nuff said. Roman Kim also uses it from time to time. It seems like it actually helps with technique.

[@VforVicious666]

hey thanks a lot for making this, i just started and i found the other thumb positions to be annoying as hell! i thought i was doing it wrong but now i see I'm just more comfortable with a high position, something that i hadn't seen addressed in any other videos,

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

You bet! It’s not my favorite, but it certainly is an option everyone should be aware of!

[@Legionary42]

Fantastic. My arm was getting so...twisted up and tight when doing double stops on the G string. Moving my thumb up released that tension. As a bonus, its more "middle" positioning with respect to the rest of the left hand fingers (i.e., more across from/toward the middle or even third finger rather than the first finger) put my octave double stops in such good tune it was kinda scary.

[@russeldioneo5187]

After experimenting with both positions i feel like this one works for me best, and i have alot of practice with the other position where the thumb is not as high. When i did that my hand was always uncomfortable and my neck hurts alot. Using this however freed up so much tension. And i actually have giant hands so i shouldnt have trouble with the other position but this one feels right to me

[@ethanewer8954]

Hillary Hahn uses a high thumb

[@deathwarmedup73]

i started 10 months ago and this was the natural and only position i could manage. my only contact point is the bone at the base of the thumb and i use a shoulder rest but can never really get the neck-grip properly. i thought i was doing it wrong but my vibrato and 3rd position playing are coming along ok

[@salomaocabral8816]

Interesting

[@cs39241]

Perlman doesn't use any shoulder rest,his thumb pertrudes very high above the fingerboard.

[@srinitaaigaura]

A lower thumb allows the hand to rotate around and reach the lower strings, but the higher thumb simply raised the height of the fingers (the whole hand actually) and therefore the reach. All of a sudden it does feel like my fingers are half an inch longer in the lower positions. 😂 Btw I play Indian Carnatic violin. We put the scroll on the foot behind the ankle bone so we don't need chin rests or shoulder rests. But this position has several unique challenges because the violin is close to vertical. Gravity wants to pull the bow down all the time and 15-20 degrees of space doesn't give nearly as much space as 90 degrees between the violin and body. But you don't need to hold the violin really. Your left hand is free. You can rotate the violin to bring the full weight of the bow on the G string rather than raise the shoulder so all shoulder impingement issues are gone. A cellist would appreciate the issues better. We don't have issues with it, but for people not used to sitting on the floor, you need super flexible hips to sit down.

[@Hector_Piriz]

Sergey Fatkulin in Madrid, he answer all the question you have

[@nimekupata]

I learned violin from a Lithuanian concert violinist that was 80 when I was in 7th grade. He INSISTED my thumb was old school. No regrets, I have three herniations in my neck after a car accident. I was angry at first because my hands are tiny.

[@augustinechinnappanmuthria7042]

Super teaching teacher AUGUSTINE violinist from Malaysia

[@johnbat6743]

Ahh.. the thumb pain. Oh that's good to know it's not going to be damaging Thank you 😌

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Discomfort and DOMS (muscle soreness) is one thing, but pain is another. It’s important to know the difference. If it’s truly pain I’d wager you are doing something wrong. I’d double check your technique with someone.

[@johnbat6743]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy I've only played twice without the rest and from what I can see from your videos I'm doing it correctly in the mirror. I think it's just noob muscle pain. I'll keep an eye on it though 🙂

[@TheRobTV]

I've started learning this past year. I also play guitar and on guitar for ceartain chords and vibrato you need your thumb high. So naturally learning violin I always had a high thumb. My teacher is trying to get rid of this habit in me and it never made sense.

[@NefalinDem]

Great video! I thought I was doing it wrong bc most violin hold tutorials i saw emphasized using low thumb (which is very uncomfortable for me). High thumb enabled me to learn vibrato too, but now, i feel the soreness. Your vid somehow eased my anxiety about injuring my thumb.😬 Anw, how long do you think will the soreness go away? Thanks in advance

[@bigol7169]

I’ve also seen that all of the old school violin masters that you listed can hold their violin with their chin to a large extent - and that their left hand only plays a minor supporting role. All of the crazy techniques they perform wouldn’t be possible if they had to support the violin predominantly with the left hand like Baroque violinists (hence why violin music and technique changed so dramatically after the chin rest). I can’t think of a single violinist who completely supports their violin with their left hand. Can you? Thanks for the great video

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Can and do are two different things. I can hold the violin up with my chin as well, but while I'm playing the majority of the support is in the left hand. It's the same for the old guys as well. The chinrest did indeed help stabilize the violin which does free up the hand, but it doesn't suspend the instrument from your shoulder, at least not without an excessive amount of squeezing. You are absolutely correct that no one, myself included, completely the supports the violin in their left hand. I like to practice doing this sometimes for fun, but what you can do is very limited. However, the majority of the support is in the left hand in the manner of playing I teach and advocate for. As you learn to play this way, you learn to shift the balance of support more to the hand or to the chin depending one what you are playing. If something stays more or less in the same position or even shifts upward, then all my chin needs to do is just sit there. That provides enough stabilization. However, if I shift downward or perhaps have to engage in some awkward double stops, then I'll start applying more support from my chin. Even at these moments I still have some support from my hand. This technique allows me to minimize stress on my neck and shoulders, and also helps stimulate more feedback coming from my hands while I play. I can be a lot more aware of every little thing my fingers are doing in relation to the fiddle and control it.

[@bigol7169]

That makes a lot of sense, thanks. I love this content because it seems like no one else talks about these old styles of playing. I love playing with a bare backed violin, but I also have a long neck, and find that there’s no way for my thin instrument to fill the space. Should I find a really high chinrest? Thanks again for your reply!

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

I mean, you can still use the same technique and use a shoulder rest, it’s just not how folks are typically taught to play with one. The other issue with rests is they fix the violin at one angle. I’d suggest experimenting with pads. As for me, I just stuff a hand towel under my shirt, but there are a lot of options when it comes to helping fill out the gaps of the neck besides shoulder rests

[@debracranwell6499]

I have been developing a tenderness in the trigger point of my left trapezius. I do not use a shoulder rest and have started using the high thumb position as it works best for my medium small 68 yr old fingers. Should I be raising my shoulder more or less or bring my elbow forward more to reduce tightness in the trapezius Love your channel! Thank you,Deb

[@johncummins3254]

Thanks for this instructional video. As I practice this approach I am having an issue with the violin neck sliding below my index knuckle joint towards the webbing of the thumb/index finger. Have you experienced this issue before, and is it just a question of practice, practice, etc. Thanks John

[@GGGarbz]

First let me begin by saying I very much appreciate your videos and lucid explanations. I am an adult student. And when I first started learning I was told to put the thumb completely under the neck. I find that gives me easier access to the G string and I've gotten quite used to it. I'm starting to do a lot of Schradieck exercises and I am beginning to feel the strain develop around the thumb. Is it because I have to the thumb completely below the neck? I'd appreciate your thoughts.

[@jackwingrove1972]

What will happen if you do put your thumb in the wedge of your thumb and first finger? I began doing the traditional thumb position, and then got used to putting it on the wedge between my thumb and first finger. I have felt nothing wrong and I have progressed in violin greatly.

[@jimmierustler5607]

This is actually a really insightful video. I've always wondered why some players who play without a shoulder rest (for example Augustine Hadelich or Anne Sophie-Mutter) seem to have completely free left hands and their violin appears to rest on their shoulders. Would you say players like these are effectively playing as if they are using a shoulder rest (keeping the violin secure between their chin and shoulder) or is it just the appearance they give by being so deft with their thumbs?

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

They are using a kind of balance between the chin and left hand, as one should. You can play this way with a shoulder rest as well, but without one it's kind of mandatory. Hadelich doesn't use the "high thumb" position, quite the opposite, in fact, but he still plays with a balance between the chin and left hand. I haven't watched Mutter for a long time so I don't remember what she does. I do remember an interview with her where she found that her own skin held the violin in place, hence her iconic strapless dresses. As for myself, I don't typically use the high thumb, either. I understand it and can demonstrate it, but you are ultimately used to what you were taught as a child. I do teach it to some people, though. Everyone's hand is a little different, so it's good to know about these different options.

[@yukitofujiro-lg2vt]

I don't have a violin teacher and I mastered vibrato and I never knew that this high thumb position I'm using is actually not commonly used lmaoooo

[@isqueirus]

What about James Ehnes? Do you think the way he positions his left hand works just for him, or is it possible to try to emulate him? Thanks

[@jezreelranan965]

What is the piece you use on your intro??. I love it

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

That is the ending of Saint-Saens’ Introduction & Rondo Capriccioso

[@wendyshell8679]

I can’t tell you why, but my thumb wants to hang out further up on the neck, and I’m really just starting out, but it’s seems the most natural for me.

[@ahumanoidoforiginx7957]

Hopefully I’m not too late, but if you are going to use the high thumb, it seems to be a matter of what’s comfortable to you. Just keep experimenting, hopefully you’ll get a good result soon

[@DivaDeb1234]

I'm noticing now that I'm not squeezing so much with my chin that I have to hold my violin somehow but not with chin !!!!! Do what I'm finding is that I lived and hold the violin with the last joint in my index finger????

[@josedanielbernalrodriguez7394]

Hi, I really have problems with no shoulder rest high thumb vibrato, if you can make a video on that I would appreciate it

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Two questions: how long have you been playing, and what kind of vibrato are you using?

[@josedanielbernalrodriguez7394]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy Hi, thanks for responding!! Well, I've been playing guitar for a while, that helps me a Little, I picked up the violin in 21 july, and i can't say I'm using a particular kind of vibrato because I'm just learning, my problem is that I literally can't find how to position my thumb to do vibrato if I'm in high thumb position.

[@ahumanoidoforiginx7957]

@@josedanielbernalrodriguez7394 I find this the most comfortable to me: with high thumb position, bring your elbow more to the front of the instrument and balance the instrument in the middle section of your thumb, and do a wrist vibrato, hopefully this helps

[@infinitepawer]

I struggle to hold my 1st down when playing 4th even using this high thumb method .. not sure what went wrong

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Well, there are other options for thumb positions. It's likely you should use one of the other options. I'd suggest experimenting a fair bit with them

[@infinitepawer]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy Yeah my fingers have more freedom and able to play faster if my thumb is under the neck but violin become less stable on my hand. By the way Itzhak Perlman has the most extreme high thumb compare to everybody else at least to me that the neck really looks like place at the very bottom between the thumb & 1st finger which make me wonder for a very long time how he manage to play like that.

[@Kyriaeus]

I think this thumb position is not particularly rare even among contemporary violinists (at least the ones we can watch on youtube) - Perlman, Vengerov, Hahn, Chen, Repin, Kaler, Ehnes just to name a few, not to mention all the teachers and orchestral violinists.

[@road2acoustic99]

Great video bro, thanks a lot ! I remember a video on KZbin with a asian man ( +/- 50 years old ) who play a concerto with many different positions with a " one thumb position technic " in the middle but can't find this video again.. I'm so sad, do you have it ? :-)

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

No, but you have me curious. Now I want to see it!

[@road2acoustic99]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy Okay Maestro, when I find it, I publish it here ! I search this since many hours now :-(

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Road2Acoustic “maestro” I like that! If you do find it, let me know!

[@road2acoustic99]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy Oh !!! I HAVE IT !!!! kzbin.info/www/bejne/morHmJSvh92Lr9E Watch the full video and tell me what do you think about it ? I started the violin since 15 months now and I train EVERYDAY, I started to train my third position and I noticed a GREAT thing : If I place my left thumb between the first and second finger, I can reach easily the third position just with placing my first finger without moving my thumb, my thumb is my reference, like a "pivot" and I can be consistent like this... my third position intonation improved a lot and my shifting anxiety is less important, now ! I know it's not conventional but, at 28 years old, I'm very sceptic with things like " be patient and do it SLOWLY 10000X with the entire hand movement, by conventional way... your brain will memorize, with time, patience and practice, the exact distance . " Maybe for a child brain but as an adult beginner, I prefer to use stables sensitives references... And I think ( I told you, " I think :-P " ) thumb is the KEY to a consistent intonation, because try try try try try to memorize the " exact distance " seem too abstract for me.. Too much parameters.. I often seen positives ideas on forums etc like " No tense ? Good intonation ? Fingers can move easily ? ... I repeat , NO TENSE ? So if it run for you, why not ? " .. What did you think ? Sorry for my horrible english, I'm french :-)

[@road2acoustic99]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy PS : This guy do not exactly what I make and sometimes his intonation seems like out of tune .. My reference for me, I repeat, is the following : The left thumb between the first and second finger ( in first position ), when I play on the third position, the hand go up on the fingerboard ( logic ) but my thumb STAY at the same place of the first position.

[@cigarnationwarriors3981]

Soreness is a result of tension, isn’t it? And isn’t tension to be avoided at all costs because it leads to impaired playing, poor tone, and INJURY? I’m very interested in using a higher thumb position because as a 74 year old Intermediate disabled grumpy violinist with a VERY short left pinky, I really struggle with playing with the fourth finger. I’ve tried the higher thumb position in the past and it definitely helped with my short pinky, but then soreness set in and I stopped using it for fear of injuring my thumb. Your thoughts, please. Thank you. William🎻

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Hey William! I'm finally getting to answer your questions! I like to make a distinction between "soreness" and "pain." Soreness can be caused by many things, most notable lactic acid. If a muscle is not used to working in a particular way, then the reaction will be soreness. So just ease into it. To make a weightlifting analogy, if I do some bench pressing, especially if I haven't done any for a while, it's quite likely that my arms and chest will be sore, but that is just fine. Eventually, as I get more accustomed to it, the soreness will go away. However, if I lift it incorrectly - in a way that doesn't suit the natural mechanics of the body - it is likely that I will put too much strain on a tendon or joint that wasn't supposed to take that kind of weight. Then I'll experience pain, and I'll definitely need to rethink what I'm doing. It's very common for those doing a higher thumb position to experience some soreness in the big muscle at the bottom of the thumb, as they are now using that muscle more than before. It will go away the more you use it. However, if you are experiencing pain (often because a nerve is pinched or a tendon is inflamed, which is often the result of holding too much tension) you will notice a distinct difference in the sensation

[@cigarnationwarriors3981]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy Thank you for helping me to understand what I’m feeling. My pain appears to not be muscular - it’s painful when I press that joint at the base of the thumb. Do you think I injured the tendon? Gosh, I hope not. Thanks again. Bach in Colorado William🎻🧛🏻‍♂️

[@deadmanswife3625]

12:00. Thumb is walking

[@kennethbradshaw967]

It has more to do with LARGE HANDS.

[@zeniktorres4320]

I prefer a high thumb, but its useless for me, a dicky 4th finger joint is the problem, but its not an issue with a lower thumb. As you said, everyone is different. Find a position that works best for you.

[@AdamantSeraph]

You make a big deal out of nothing, mate. From the book of violin technique by R.Ricci : " there is no fix position for the thumb" (since he is in the thumbnail ;) )

[@kristiansvennevig1449]

If you can provide a good reason based on ergonomics , biomechanics and efficiency. , I will listen. But my guess is that you can’t because this type of technique is so inefficient. the old masters practiced brute force style. You can master technique that isn’t efficient, but it takes much longer. So why teach people a technique that takes so much longer to master? Violin is difficult enough with efficient technique. It is important to Work smarter not harder! Why do you think there were so few great violinists back in the day? It is because very few could master that biomechanically inefficient technique. Teaching this nonsense to people is not responsible or good teaching.

[@Kyriaeus]

Your comment would hold more weight if it weren’t for the fact that many contemporary world-class violinists also play this way. Hahn, Vengerov, Chen, Perlman, Quint, Beilman, Repin just to name a few.

[@simon0yeung]

Please explain your point based on ergonomics, biomechanics that this isn't efficient?

[@biggunz3886]

That's how Arthur Fonzerelli held the violin.

[@BobWarnerBarn]

Interesting