The Horus Heresy Age of Darkness Box - Its Not for Me...and Here's Why!

[@mn01_]

I’ll save you 9 minutes: GW products remain very expensive relative to the market and he doesn’t like it. Nothing to do with the box itself

[@frankhorrigan7877]

Thanks

[@Inconvenient_NPC]

Thanks

[@Lucian028]

Infinity ruined me. I wanted to get back into 40k in the 9th edition and amount of books required just to play with someone is just absurd (rulebook+codex+maybe supplement+book with pointcosts(sold separately, duh)). Same with necromunda with all these hazard zone rules etc.

[@TesseractMinis]

Infinity definitely HEAVILY skews perceptions in the opposite direction, doesn't it? Like ...the ONE book with the rules is even optional, let alone the supplements.

[@sammymold3556]

Just download data sheets ect.. of the Internet

[@yuarthur455]

Infinity is the best 😂

[@proudsaiyanprince2651]

I’m honestly just considering buying the box as a display project for my bookshelf to paint with my grandfather. We both love reading HH.

[@TesseractMinis]

Well this certainly wins wholesome comment of the week! Awesome!

[@manofthewest5395]

I'm a college student who works a minimum wage job on the side and I could never afford a Horus Heresy army were it not for recasters.

[@andrewdavies6355]

I started with GW with second edition Space Marine. That came with 3 playable armies full army lists for 2 factions scenery, and the full rule book. Subsequent factions came as “expansions” in pairs and whole armies came in expansion boxes. Admittedly the size and quality of the minis was *completely* different but it was something I could play with pocket money. You could also slowly build very basic 40K armies by getting blister packs of individual figures, orks and marines coming in 2s and 3s, not possible now. GW is a very different beast now but if kids aren’t able to get into it ……. will the number of new players reduce? Kill team is an attempt at getting a low buy in but squads will still set you back $130nz ish and the supplemental rules are more intrinsic to the games, unlike say old school Bloodbowl that had a large amount of additional rule books on a “these are fun add-ons if you like” basis.

[@yagsipcc287]

People also need to understand this is not a new 40k type game HH is played as if its a historical game, down to paint jobs, very into the lore. I personally love it and the setting and have been looking towards it more and more for over 2 years now in terms of the game as a whole, the look and feel etc... maybe because I am now 31 as well and want something more. Also this set is advertised as two starter armies when it is not! even really one army ha

[@phuryian]

100% agree with you mate, I'm done with the GW FOMO curse. PS - I scored the ITS Season 9 Event Pack today!

[@praenkowski]

I bought a 3D-Printer instead and I love this thing.

[@liamroche1295]

I was hyped for months for Heresy. Listened to lore and instagram to try and pick a legion. Then when it came down to it I thought the same thing. This is going to cost a lot and will I even get through painting it all? Will I ever actually get it to the table for a game? Don’t need another huge addition to the pile of shame so I got killteam instead. Me and my son have already painted all the terrain and put together all the miniatures.

[@Dennis3113]

But thats exactly what Killteam is for. The Horus Heresy was always obviously Apocalypse size i think even 4000 Points might be even a better scale to make the Battle truely massive. But you can play with other People at your store. For Example you could play 3vs3 player Everyone fields 1000 Points. Sons of Horus Death Guard and Emperors Children vs Ravenguard Salamanders and Iron Hands.

[@liamroche1295]

@@Dennis3113 yah for sure and as appealing as that sounds the odds of me actually painting it all and getting a game in are really low. I’m looking at my pile of shame and thinking does it need a heresy sized addition? Don’t get me wrong I would love to paint it all up and play. The issue is I’m not at a point in my life that it will happen :)

[@PleasantKenobi]

Whilst I do not disagree that Horus Heresy is deceptively expensive if you want to get to full scale comp/narrative games - I do think we need to stop comparing full army larger scale games to Skirmish and smaller scale titles. I would much rather have seen the comparisons in this video show us other tabletop army games like Bolt Action and similar. Having started to paint Godtear this week - I have to agree on the point about Skirmish games not adding more guilt and shame to the backlog - the novelty of a smaller varied force is great.

[@TesseractMinis]

In my opinion, the latter is the exact justification for the fore. Army games, by their very nature place huge demand on people's time - GW army games, with the release frequency and hype train, are the most egregious example of this, but the financial commitment is only one part of the story. I could easily say "it's £500+ for a full HH army, but only £300 for a bolt action army" but who does that actually help? I would hazard a guess that there are more people struggling with the volume of minis and frequency of purchase, than there are people who just want to spend similar money and commitment elsewhere. Most fans, afterall, love the property, even if we're somewhat divided these days on the games themselves. All that said, I did do a price shootout for army sized games in a video a while back. I'll go find it after this and drop you a link :) Cheers for commenting, Vince. Always appreciate your input mate.

[@TesseractMinis]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/h167l2hsi9p1bZY&ab_channel=ThatMrShy Here's the value shootout video, from back in October of last year.

[@NinetaleHobbies]

Dead on how I feel about GW and there stuff atm. I think they are seeing how much they can raise prices before the hobby high dollar mark breaks.

[@fastpandagamingtheclaw]

thing is, the longer you are off the GW crazy train the more you realise how bad they are . Enlighten the people @That MrShy

[@RattlerNxt]

Infinity has definitely ruined me. Spectacular models and free rules and army builder that Works! I can buy beautiful books if I want (and I do) but it’s not a requisite. I just traveled to Singapore and took an entire Infinity army in my bag. No worries! Can’t do that with GW.

[@AzraelBlackstar]

They are totally different types of games. Infinity doesn't scratch the same itch at all.

[@RattlerNxt]

@@AzraelBlackstar opinion.

[@comradedangerfield]

@@AzraelBlackstar yes they are totally different, seeing how infinity is a good game

[@thehiddenheretic]

I spent last week going through old boxes of forgotten projects, getting rid of minis I didnt want to add to existing armies anymore and in general selling as much unwanted painting as possible so I could justify (and afford) another big painting project. Starter, 2 rhinos, Kratos and Liber Hereticus to add to my existing 30k Night Lords force that I have collected at random over the years with to use in standard 40k and likely pushing me to over 5k points for this new game. Which saying out loud is a bit overwhelming since I need to paint almost all of it hahaha. As to any extras I have no shame in saying I own a 3d printer and am fine printing out some good enough extra vehicles if I so decide I want something extra

[@davidhart4378]

I had checked out Necromunda before starting Infinity; and one thing that really put me off was how many books the rules were split across. A 2 person game needed two core rule books, plus an extra book for each faction. The models themselves were not stupidly expensive, and the terrain did look cool, but I'd rather collect models than paper (the paper itch is well and truly sated with all my D&D collection).

[@TesseractMinis]

Yeah, sadly this was the case for me too, David. First edition Necromunda is actually probably my favourite miniatures game ever made... But back then you could play the whole game off of one boxed set and one expansion.

[@Mikey__R]

Sadly, my original Esher gang with the kitbashed mercenaries went in the bin whilst I was away at university. My parents never did understand miniatures.

[@BattleCamperHome]

Hey, just found your channel and liked the video. Personally, I am on the hype train! Not to deny any of the well-reasoned things you're saying, and I've also found myself spoiled by the value of other games where I'm going from zero-playing at events with a fraction of the investment in time and resources. However, there's three things this has going for it in my view: 1. Like you, I love the setting and the I really enjoy the models. Purely subjective, but certainly counts. 2. I really enjoyed 7th ed 40k's core ruleset (I know, I'm prepared to be burned. Yes, it became a joke by the end, but I like the core stuff and love the idea of a game in that mold) 3. And I think this is the main one. When you get into a game like this, you know there'll be a community for it. That's a big one for me, I want to know that the people around me will be playing and I like the excitement that generates. But, I respect the points you make and by the other commenters. I also acknowledge that I'm in a very privileged position to be able to make this choice. A lot of people simply won't because they cannot justify the cost (or cannot meet it as a mathematical reality). It's sad that the hobby should be like that. Sadder still that I know that when I was 10 years old, and my mum let me buy the 3rd ed box, she was mortified by the (if I recall correctly) £60 price tag. I think if we translated these prices back 20 years, even adjusted for inflation, I simply would not have been allowed to buy in and that would have changed my life for the worse. Anyway, sorry for the super long comment. Keep up the good work :)

[@TesseractMinis]

I absolutely love everything about this comment, bravo! Welcome to the channel!

[@BattleCamperHome]

@@TesseractMinis thank you! :)

[@3v3rhard]

The whole box comes to 2k points. I bet you can build a very nice army for under 400 euro using the base of this box. Thats not so bad at all.

[@jacklovelock1953]

Ironically, you can literally buy Horus and this box if you want a SoH army and you have a fully legal 3k army to use. Not sure where £570 has come from, as that means, after this set, you'd have to spend £390 to get 1k points.

[@TesseractMinis]

Boxed set: £180 Two special/heavy weapon sets: £26*2=£52 Index for your chosen side: £42 Comes to £274.. plus, as I clearly said in the video a conservative estimate of £300 for more models. Who the hell wants 40 basic marines, 10 basic terminators, 1 tank, 1 dread, a lord and a Primarch as their whole army? The whole point of Heresy is you get access to all the cool stuff like Automata, tanks that don't exist in 40K, special dreads like the Leviathan, not to mention the smatterings of apothecaries, librarians and other characters. Assault troops. Drills. Drop pods. Like... I said in the video, the army you would have to build to make it as cheap as people are claiming, certainly isn't an army I want and I doubt is the army most folk would have in mind for the setting. It's absolutely fine if you feel differently to me. It's absolutely fine if you would personally be happy with a cookie cutter army. It's absolutely fine if you think this box is the best thing ever... But don't be up in my comments acting like I'm lying or misrepresenting numbers, just to suit your bias. That's not fine at all.

[@jacklovelock1953]

@@TesseractMinis You have 1k points to play with, so by the time you grab something exotic like a leviathan, that's another 300+ points used at around £50 (rumoured leviathan price) If you plan to buy the box but use half of it, of course the value won't be the same. Your paying for additional things that you'll never use. You are also limited on what you can take, like any game. So that huge list you posted was nice, but you can't fit that all in to an army. I see where your coming from, and wanting a heavy theme. But buying a chunk of extra models you don't want will naturally cost you more on any game. Heresy at the core is similar to 40k, but points add up much faster (most units have an additional premium points cost at the base level) so you actually get less for 3k model wise than you would from 40k. That 2k base set is also based on cheap units. Add in any upgrades that come with it and your drawing closer to 2.5k already.

[@TesseractMinis]

I'm sorry but I don't understand the point you're making. Like genuinely, I'm not being argumentative, I actually don't get where you're coming from. My initial statement was that the box makes too much of a cookie cutter army, so you'd end up buying a bunch on top. Therefore the box isn't as good value to me, as it would be for someone who's fine with that. And your rebuttal seems to be "Yes, but so what?" Like... The video isn't a review of the box - it's a beacon for folks who perhaps feel caught up in the hype of the box, even though it's not ideal for them. It's a message that they can just choose to buy something that suits them more. The box is evergreen, it'll still be there. I'm struggling to see what the problem is. It feels like you just objected to my numbers, and then when I explained them, you minimised my point, even though you were the one with the objection. Feeling a bit puzzled...

[@jacklovelock1953]

@@TesseractMinis My point was that not everyone is the same. Just because you (I'm with you in this one too) don't want a cookie cutter army, doesn't mean others don't. Some armies rely on 2 maxed out basic squads, so you instantly need 40 marines as the base. Special weapons? £26 and you have enough to equip the entire box with 20 spare weapons. My other point was that the cost for points isn't what you think it is. This set is only 2k barebones. By the time you add gear to the character/s, unit leaders, terminators, tac marines and upgrades to the dread and spartan it ramps up a lot. You are also free to sell as you want. Paying £140 from somewhere like alchemists workshop is great. Don't want rhe terminators? Ebay or trade. You now have what you want for even less. The retail value is still a fair bit above the buy in, especially from a 3rd party store. So you can sell off what you don't need to reduce the overall cost and prevent basically buying what you don't need. Also, it can indeed be insanely expensive. Hell, I dont know how deep you are with 30k, but check out auxilia. I'm cool with GW prices and accept them (begrudgingly) but I'd never think of selling a kidney to buy an army.

[@IronModeOfficial]

I can see a lot of people not liking it or buying it but I can see it being good for people starting their first army or like me. I like making minis in funky color schemes. Then when I’m ready to build a actually battle ready I already have the models to strip down and start over

[@TesseractMinis]

That's a really interesting angle! Thank you!

[@DavesMiniMenagerie]

Yeah all those Carnevale minis wearing different clothes and looking different is definitely a good thing for us painters

[@TesseractMinis]

Makes a HUGE difference to the burnout

[@DavesMiniMenagerie]

@@TesseractMinis Yeah I think for my Malifaux models I'm going to start painting all their clothes differently to spice it up

[@TesseractMinis]

Great plan! Malifaux definitely has the space for it. I think sometimes we lure ourselves into believing our models NEED to look like cohesive units - but if you look at actual street gangs, for example, it's often a tattoo, or a single article of clothing that denotes membership - not the entire outfit, head to toe. Variety is the spice, mate!

[@ageoflove1980]

I think these boxes are 2 things at the same time. On the one hand you are right and they are a relatively affordable teaser to draw new people in, hopefully to get them on the treadmill so to speak. But on the other hand the box is just a game or toy by itself, that you own to do with as you please. You can completely ignore GW from that point. If you just play with friends you don't have to buy anything else at all, and the whole hobby aspect is still just as good, perhaps better even because you can experiment with colours instead of being a good little GW boy doing everything as they tell you to do it. Heck, you don't even have to play it, you can just spend your time on the hobby, getting plenty of enjoyment from that and then proudly display them or whatever. For example the Age of Sigmar Dominion box is on sale for 99 euro over here and that's pretty good value even compared to other companies and I can just buy, paint, play with it as a product by itself and still get a lot of value from it, even or maybe especially if I never buy anything AoS ever again.

[@mellifluoresce]

these sentiments are why I've dived entirely into Marvel Crisis Protocol so I definitely agree with a lot of the points not only is the game system great, but the fact that you could play a given character in basically any faction for the most part means there's no stress or regrets about what to pick up. Their sculpts are getting really good too. I've got a bunch of GW models in the grey mountain but I'm just not sure I can be bothered to slog through them!

[@TesseractMinis]

I think MCP was kinda at the front of the tipping point where people started to understand the value of skirmish games, beyond just "models for money". It's a great one! Thanks for commenting :)

[@zackcook5123]

I'll be honest the Heresy relaunch is a step in the right direction for Games Workshop. However your criticisms are bang on the money. For games workshop having the rulebooks for the bigger factions being on release. The rules from what I've seen. It's not perfect but a step in the right direction has given me the desire to give it a shout using 3d prints. So after all that waffle? It's a massive improvement but GW has a long way to go. But damn the beakies and the Spartan look really nice. Also for me GW's best range is necromunda (not counting ash wastes). Necromunda is a good game

[@pigbinjosh8466]

I remember going into GW stores in the 90s and they would be packed with kids playing the games and painting the figures but now I go into them and it's a couple of 30 something neckbeards. It was always an expensive hobby but it wasn't beyond the means of a kid who saved his pocket money to build a decent army. Nowadays only the neckbeards are willing and able to spend that much money on models, paints, books etc. What happens to GW when they die off?

[@TesseractMinis]

This is the big question... More and more 30-40 something's (myself included) are reaching a point where it just doesn't feel worth the spends any more...

[@pigbinjosh8466]

@@TesseractMinis I haven't bought anything from GW since they stopped using metal and recasting from their back catalogue. I still buy Citadel minis but I get them all on eBay. Even at some of the prices there it's still preferable to GW's prices.

[@TesseractMinis]

Ahh a fellow connoisseur I see. I love me a metal mini 👌 that's actually one of the big draws of infinity for me. Modern, digitised sculpting techniques, with crispy, heavy metal minis. 😍

[@pigbinjosh8466]

@@TesseractMinis I prefer metal minis because they're easy to strip for repainting.

[@TesseractMinis]

Absolutely! I also tend to find they have sharper edges, which makes for an easier painting experience in general

[@barrywonderdog]

I'm not sure what's worse in terms of price and space management... a 3,000 point HH army, or the 8,000 points worth of units in nerf/buff rotation needed to make a viable 2,000 point 40k army?

[@TesseractMinis]

😂😂😂 yeah... It wasn't lost on me that GWs main game is like an extreme version of why this box isn't perhaps as good as it looks.

[@RenMomoDotPog]

The rare miniature creator not dedicated to electronic a- I mean games workshop? Subbed. Ez

[@iannordin5250]

Everyone is talking about how good the price of this is, meanwhile Bolt Action sells boxes of 60+ models for like 100 bucks

[@metal_black_x9828]

It’s nuts, I used to build gundam models and you can get a good 7 to 8 inch model for like 40 bucks. It kills me that GW has the nerve to charge people 30 dollars in some cases for like a one inch long model

[@TimothyEdwards]

I’m painting a couple of models I’ve got lying around to see if painting Heresy models appeal. I’ve got a chill club who’ll play Heresy, but it would definitely be a significant investment if time and money to get into. The box not being limited release is meaning I don’t write it off immediately.

[@TesseractMinis]

Absolutely! That last part is important, because let's face it - life does change. If a time comes when I have bandwidth for army sized games again, Horus Heresy would be lovely to get in to. It's by far my favourite thing GW do. But I think your approach is really smart. Test the water, consider, slow and steady and make an informed decision. The hype is risky business, especially for folks who struggle with impulse control.

[@yuliydubovyk3080]

This is a really good take. Love it. I did end up preordering the new set, but to be honest all the points you have raised are completely valid.

[@sarahdisco-dolly1150]

I suspect they have a value for churn rate which these new sets compensate for and then the cycle starts again. But the circle is getting ever decreasing, presumably when the CEO cashes in his chips we will know the game is up.

[@TesseractMinis]

Interesting, are you saying the pattern in their current tactics points to desperation? This is definitely a thought I have had, but assumed I was wrong 😂

[@MarkZX14R]

GW has been off my list for about 12 months now and it feels great ... :)

[@TesseractMinis]

It's definitely a much more relaxed, easy to pace hobby, when you don't have the hype horn jammed in your ear all the time 😂

[@stevenmcgrath5114]

I am considering a Black Templar relic army using the Horus Hersey box set. Every Black Templar knight would be painted as an individual with his own stile and heloldry as well as the Spartan and Dreadnaught painted as relic armor with equal attention given to their Indiana style of the Black Templar chapter. Your thoughts?

[@TesseractMinis]

Certainly sounds like a really in-depth passion project, with a ton of opportunities for interesting painting approaches!

[@madmerlinsart]

Horus Heresy is my jam, it's just the setting, the kinda balance, that most armies are the same but still have their own unique twists, and the amazing work of the authors who brought that small bit of text you mentioned to full life with over 60 books. BUT! After a phonecall with a friend last night, he introduced me to this game and I spent about half an hour to 45mins skimming through the rules and checking the available products and I fell in love with it. The way he described it to me as a story driven skirmish RPG sold me almost instantly. The one thing I love about these games is being able to create stories in a already grounded setting. I'm tempted to grab the starter box and do coverage for the game in my channel, once I get out of this financial rough spot. Great video and I've given it a like and subscribe to find out more.

[@TesseractMinis]

Thank you! I'll jump over and return the gesture after I write this! Horus Heresy is honestly my favourite thing GW have ever produced. That little piece of text way back when has been a source of hobby inspiration many many times in my life. And truth be told, I'm kinda disappointed that the game, and the box doesn't feel like a good fit for me right now. It's not even really GWs fault - they're doing their thing the way they do their thing... I'm just in a different place in my life right now, where lower commitments in painting and keeping up with rules, are the only way I can stay engaged with the hobby. But that's why I thought it might be nice to throw a flag up and say to folks "if you're in this position too, it's okay to not be part of the hype. You don't have to need every thing, every time... You're allowed to pick and choose."

[@madmerlinsart]

@@TesseractMinis I totally agree, and while yes I did buy the box, I brought it from a painting perspective rather than a playing one. I've been trying since Lockdown 1 to get my commission business out there but it's been a rough ride. I've not had a commission since last year and before that it was about 3 prior. I have learnt a few things from my past attempts and I'm going to get it right one day. Doing the YT channel gives me something to focus on and distract me from the pain of severe sciatica, as does painting, but it's also improving my skills and helping me learn new ones too. I appreciate the follow back and can't wait to cover more games, Carnevale is definitely on my to get list.

[@TesseractMinis]

As someone who's been a part time commission painter for 10 years, and full time for 3, I'll be the first to say it's an EXTREMELY difficult field to succeed in. Ultimately your success or failure depends largely on being noticed, and that's an incredibly difficult thing to do in a niche space like wargaming. Stay the course though! If you love it, it's worth keeping going, and as you rightly say KZbin is a super fun side gig! Good luck!

[@madmerlinsart]

@@TesseractMinis Thank you! That means a lot. :D

[@AndyAttrition]

I honestly don’t care for the 30k stuff in the box. But it is a solid base for my Primaris-free Carcharodons battle company.

[@TesseractMinis]

So would you say you're likely to buy the box, but not to play 30K?

[@AndyAttrition]

No, in dont liked the ruleset for Heresy when it came out in 7th although i dont despise it as much as the current edition. I thinkt it does not live up to the "epicness" of the lore. But the Box content is the first fresh Firstborne stuff in years and the relic gear fits the army theme so i had to get it.

[@67OMC]

Totaly with you here Stu, when I buy a big boxed game I want the whole game not just a few bits!!! Gloomhaven is a good example, what a meaty box of lovelyness that is with hundreds of hours of gameplay and no extras needed! (I tell a lie, had to scrambble about the house to find enough pencils to write on caracter sheets).

[@Mikey__R]

Epic scale games are best played with epic scale models. Pushing around a hundred 28mm scale infantry models on individual bases, just isn't my idea of fun anymore. I would give Adeptus Titanicus a go... but it's still GW, with all the GW problems.

[@TesseractMinis]

Dropzone Commander is definitely calling me stronkthly at the moment.

[@Mikey__R]

@@TesseractMinis I need to be realistic about what I get into, I think I need to focus on one or two maximum game systems at a time.

[@TesseractMinis]

Yeah I can totally understand that. I think I'm still finding my longterm homes for a lot of that though. Like I know Infinity is my A-Game...but I still need to find that perfect B-Game that gives me a good palate cleanser from Infinity. The TT Combat stuff has provided really interesting prospects there, because the starter sets are like £45-65 and actually contain enough minis to get what feels close to a real game. Rumbleslam for example - 2 X 5 mini teams... But as I understand you can play with teams from 1-5 so 5 models is actually a max. That's £45 for a game that's playable at its full scale, straight out the box. Dropzone - £45 or £55 if you want the scenery pack. Armies aren't full size but you get like a full range of units from infantry, to light, medium and flying vehicles. And they're 10mm so you can paint a whole army in like a week. These just feel like the kinda things that fit so much better into the lifestyle of modern adults, with responsibilities.

[@Mikey__R]

@@TesseractMinis oh, yeah. Responsibilities...

[@Mikey__R]

@@TesseractMinis let's also not forget Mantic Armada. Though, the value isn't as compelling as DZC.

[@CarlosSempereChen]

I started a 30k White Scars army a few years ago, then GW/FW did a couple of things that upset me and I quit before getting very far. I'm getting excited again, though. I think I'll start working on the stuff I bought back then. It'll be a long, slow project, more focused on the modeling than the playing. The new box looks like good value, but the contents aren't a good fit for every army. I think it should've been smaller. But okay, it doesn't need to work for everybody - as long as the rest of us can buy a rulebook separately. Which we can't at the moment. I can live with a game being expensive if it's all a la carte, but a high cost _and_ tricky packaging is not cool.

[@TesseractMinis]

This is a really well thought out look at it. Thank you! Appreciate this kind of insight.

[@Leman.Russ.6thLegion]

I'm building space wolves legion. HALF of the options for them are out of stock. WHERE ARE THE GREY SLAYER UPGRADES?

[@timothymartin5538]

I think you're right, I have every intention of getting the box, but absolutely no intention of playing at 3K, maybe 1500, and most of the people I know who play it are doing loyalists, so I'll just play mini games with them.

[@TesseractMinis]

I suspect that if people manage to keep this as a casual investment at arm's length, they'll probably have a great time with it. However I'll be very surprised if it isn't marketed aggressively for the next 12 months, and I can foresee a lot of good intentions snowballing in to huge collections. Again, fine if folks can handle it, but definitely a reason I need to steer clear. I'm very susceptible to marketing and have awful impulse control 😂

[@garin4364]

Yeah... I was quite excited, but it really gets under my skin you literally can't get the main book without buying the box.

[@TesseractMinis]

That one definitely is a bit of a problem..or at least not knowing when the book will be released separately.

[@be-noble3393]

As a Guardsman, I never cared for the HH setting. Also, the nickel & dime price policy of GW is what drove me away from GW.

[@Mikey__R]

There's an upcharge for everything. Before you know it, you've spent hundreds more than expected.

[@gunmnky]

IG actually have a strong force in HH and the added bonus of not needing to buy any new models. You can just spam russ tanks. Downside - you had to buy $1000 in books to get all the damn rules.

[@Mikey__R]

@@gunmnky *had a strong force. Who knows if provenances will make it into 2.0

[@gunmnky]

3d print 3d print 3d print I >might< get the box on amazon at a discount for the nostalgia 3rd ed packing (big book, measuring sticks, etc) and for the ease of slapping together a base force for 30k. But Everything else will be 3d printing until GW can figure out that their stuff isn't made of gold and jacking in prices on the verge of a full blown recession is a dumb idea.

[@Rich0029]

The Bill King story 1st came out in Realm of chaos the lost and the damned back in 91. I don’t disagree with a lot of your points I’ve been playing the HH since 2015 and there’s no doubt it’s an expensive war game I’d actually expect the pts level for Heresy to drop as they’ve added some rules that I believe will make each turn longer me and friends usually play at our local club and our 3k games are done finished board and models put away while the 40k and Sigma players are still in the thick of their 2k games. Having said that the kings of war players can normally fit in 2 2k games in the time it takes AoS and 40k players to finish their games so the HH is not a quick game by any means. I’m just getting traitor book and rule book (courtesy of a friend who’s well on the hype train with 2 boxsets pre ordered). I’ll probably get a starter box this year to flesh out my AL but my WE and Mechanicum armies are at a ridiculous size and I’ve lost insensitive to buy from FW or GW after such crazy price hikes the last few years. The problem I find with other skirmish games is I just can’t get into their background fluff like I do with the Heresy.

[@TesseractMinis]

Interesting, I actually had no idea there was an earlier example. I first encountered it in the WD issue. Cool to know, thanks!

[@nicholaspatterson4299]

Yea but those skirmish games and low model count games aren't 40k. You play 40k FOR the hordes of painted armies and 3000 point games. This isn't a bad thing for the game. You just can't keep up anymore. You are right about the prices though. Way too much. Imperial guard with 10 models used to cost 29$ like 8 years ago. Same exact set is now 40$

[@TesseractMinis]

Oh don't get me wrong... Nothing about my opinions excludes that some people just prefer mass hoard army games. That's totally a thing. The video is an expression of where I'm at and how I feel - there's no intent there to tell anyone who feels differently that they're wrong.

[@Mikey__R]

I definitely can't keep up anymore. I started a 30k campaign with friends, but I had to drop out when the armies started getting too big. It's just not my thing anymore.

[@DeusMachina71]

I play at home only in casual environments so I will probably at least pick up the books, I have a lot of Mark II, III, IV, V armored Marines and a bunch of Horus heresy stuff already so it's an easy buy in.. plus I'll probably just 3d print the rest and skip the GW buy in train.. yeah GW shareholders can bite me I'm not giving them anything more than the barest of minimum in outlay cash to play. I'll probably just play OPR most of the times with my minis anyway

[@stewartmartin8382]

The gw prices are extortion, and I'm still about 200 quid off getting all the models I want, and by the time I get round to getting them they will probably be oop and twice as much money. Good video dude keep up the good work

[@TesseractMinis]

Thanks so much Stewart! Appreciate your comment!

[@shrobee]

I'm in it, it and a primarch are about 2k points, that seems to be the way most people are entering, If nothing ese it gives me my dream of a loyalist Tsons army.

[@grahamroden8897]

I have plumped for 30k, I have a 6000 point salamanders force already so the big box is being split between that and an allied force. I see your point though. This is the first GW stuff aside from contrast paint I’ve bought in 2 years. Mantic Games have shown the way for value mass army games with Kings of War and Firefight.

[@syncopaint_minis3016]

I just paint and enjoy the painting. The starter box for horus heresy is an ok price from 3rd party retailers £144. I got it and am going to enjoy painting it. I have never player the game so the extra costs don’t count for me as i wont be paying anymore.

[@TesseractMinis]

How do you find the prospect of painting through 40 minis that are very similar?

[@syncopaint_minis3016]

@@TesseractMinis it is fine for me. It is the final result that will look great. And now that im getting an airbrush it wont take so long. I am a very patient person as being a teacher at primary and secondary level too. I just find painting lethargic and get excited about the final results. Thats just me though.

[@TesseractMinis]

Interesting to know, great feedback. Thank you!

[@OmnipotentPeaceMan]

Bruh #metoo At first I was like oh cool, but then I looked at my dark angels, blood angels and the start of a Primaris ultramarines not to mention the death guard and dark vengence chaos marines just sitting on the sprues.. I think I am fully done painting space marines.

[@knoxminis1211]

I get you, but how many other people do you have to play those multiple skirmish games against?

[@TesseractMinis]

I typically play infinity twice a week. I play a lot of skirmish games with the other half too - because the lighter nature of them appeals to her as a board game fan.

[@wpeaston]

I think the HH box is actually great value and I hope it will get a lot more people into the game. Not picking it up myself as already have too much infantry but planning to get a few vehicles. I do agree however that the requirement for too many books and repetitive painting can be a drain. That’s one of the reasons I am really enjoying Blood Bowl at the moment, the teams are small and fun to paint (plus you only need one book to play).

[@TesseractMinis]

I actually agree - which is why I make the specific point in the video that the value proposition isn't just monetary. The box itself, as a standalone thing, especially with LGS discount, is at a really good price point for the volume of contents. Where the value proposition becomes less enticing for me, is that I'm at a point in life where that volume isn't what I'm looking for, and I suspect others feel similarly. That volume becomes an even bigger weight too, once you've spent a bunch more cash on the follow up purchases. The end result is that as you say, games with lower overheads just feel more appealing at the moment. I think in general, the hobby space as a whole is starting to feel more and more this way, too. Bloodbowl is a great example of a very low pressure game. I'd hazard a guess it's perhaps GWs lowest pressure game?

[@wpeaston]

@@TesseractMinis absolutely, blood bowl has such a low entry point to get into it. I don’t have a lot of time on my hands atm for painting and playing so it is ideal for me.

[@chrisgoodier6825]

HH not for me. I will however be on the look out for 10x cheap MK6 guys and individual special/heavy weapons on eBay once the packs get inevitably split. I fancy a HH style Kill Team.

[@TesseractMinis]

That's a good shout! I fancy some Beakies myself because I'd like to play some old skool rogue trader down the line.

[@JayJapanB]

No, but not for your reasons. I'm expecting to spend significantly more money on resin models and multi set conversions. I can't help but be put off when I see everyone building an painting the exact same stuff. It's just not for me. For me, time is the limit. Not money. But I enjoy spending that time working on creating unique armies. I also don't mind complex or expensive FW units for the same reason. They're fun and interesting. I have enough for the next 6 months anyway. I'll only buy more if I finish or if a set I want goes "last chance".

[@LiliaArmoury]

nearly 700 aud as the buy in cost is horrible (core set, 1 special weapons box and faction book) and that's just for a starting force! sadly this pushes me away from starting the game. that might change when the imperial army rules come out for the game as by then the buy in price will be a bit cheaper thanks to ebay and i will be able to use my existing guard army or maybe start a new one that mainly uses cheaper to buy miniatures from third parties for infantry and scratch built/conversion built vehicles

[@TesseractMinis]

On the upside, Australia has a BOOMING infinity scene! Especially Melbourne, as I understand it.

[@joshpmatthews]

I’m a sucker for GW, and this box set is exactly what I want. I’ve enjoyed the Horus heresy setting since the first edition came out. I agree it is a very expensive company to get the hobby from. And I should really look elsewhere, but something keeps drawing me back and I just don’t seem to get on with other gaming systems. I will say for a long standing heresy fan the concept of plastic kits brings the heresy cost down, but it is still every expensive given other companies out there.

[@TesseractMinis]

I think if it's genuinely your favourite thing, you can totally afford the prices, and you have the time to get the models painted - then you have nothing to worry about, and certainly no reason to look elsewhere, or be concerned.

[@Gogsnik]

I haven't played a game of 40k since the Eye of Terror world wide campaign. I buy almost all the BL novels and I am up-to-date with all the background but I only buy models that I want to convert and (maybe) paint up. So, I'm definitely not on the HH hype train and the only thing that I'm looking forward to getting my hands on is the plastic contemptor dreadnought, I have a few resin ones but plastic is so much easier to use I'll defeintely treat myself to a few, in time.

[@warpaintjj]

On the fence still. It's not the money, It's the time to learn a new game & fit it into a busy gaming life. We ditched 40k during 8th due to bloat & haven't touched 9th. HH holds some nostalgia value but is that always a good thing? Often not! There are so many other things I'd rather play.

[@chillminis5201]

I understand your criticisms, but I'll be honest, I'm really hyped for the new Horus Heresy box. It is a pretty good number of minis for the price, especially if you get it from third-party sellers.

[@TesseractMinis]

Oh I don't disagree! It's important to understand I'm not really trying to be critical of the box here at all - I'm merely stating where it exists in the market and how that relates to my current hobby needs. The purpose is more to provide folks who were maybe feeling a bit pressured by the hype, a reassurance that they don't need to jump on it, if they'd rather buy something else. I've said many times both before and since recording this, that if I find myself down the line looking for a 32mm army size game, Horus Heresy is a very likely candidate.

[@greychief]

Here in the Philippines, buying WH is not a cheap hobby especially with the sudden price increase of all gw products. Add to the fact that for someone like me who only got into the hobby, having to juggle both AoS and 40k, I'll pass on this and wait for the xmas battleboxes

[@TesseractMinis]

It must be incredibly frustrating, trying to enjoy GW games outside of the UK.

[@WladcaPodziemia]

When you make zoom-in with overlayered image - those boxes behind you are doing no favors - since they make much less clear what overlayred iamge is

[@UnspeakingXVII]

started on the hh hype back with betrayal at calth and burning of prospero. this has just been a slow burn behind necromunda and kill team for me. bought age of darkness straight away. im only in to 30k/40k stuff so other manufacturers have no interest to me. i wish gw was cheaper but nothing i can do will change it. best plastic minis imo.

[@mogadeet6857]

The box is over a thousand dollars in Australia. That's why I have nothing to do with GW.

[@TesseractMinis]

Wow... Yeah Aus seems to be where all the indie games thrive, I've noticed...and it's hard to not correlate that to it also being the country where GW have the least market penetration, due to their prices.

[@TesseractMinis]

Follow up: I just checked on GWs site and the box is 475 AUD?

[@peters.9463]

I will buy the box, but only to use the models in 40K or with OnePageRules or something like this. I am not interested in the new game so far.

[@daveawesomesauce772]

I love your Infinity content and your enthusiasm convinced me to get a set of Yu Jing!

[@TesseractMinis]

That's really lovely to hear, thank you! Hope you're enjoying Infinity!

[@stevenray8737]

I enjoyed your video, and also feel that Horus Heresy is not for me. £180 is far too expensive to give the game a try, even if it is good value. That said, there is a fan-made supplement for Kill Team called Age of Darkness. A box of beakies and the KT starter set and you're good to go for skirmish 30K...

[@TesseractMinis]

That's an interesting shout. Although I'd probably grab a box of Beakies and just use One Page Rules skirmish rules instead, which are free! :)

[@stevenray8737]

@@TesseractMinis And yes thats pretty good too. Just the beakies then! ^_^

[@WILLTY13]

I just loving the modeling aspect so much I got it and love it

[@kimiOfDieLinke]

I can't fully agree here. You are comparing a large scale game with skirmish games. I agree that GW is expansive as f* - yes. But so are most of the other games. Are some ounces of plastic worth 50 - 100 pounds? No. And that's what every manufacturer does. Don't get me wrong, I love the Infinity metal minis (the level of detail on newer castings is insane) - but really committing into Infinity Meta is also expansive. And Infinity is more comparable to Kill Team. And the perfectly playable start box for Killteam is 65 Pounds including 2 factions, rulebook and some (honestly crappy) terrain. I get your point that some boxes look a lot but you still need tons of other stuff - yes, indeed. But I honestly had this issue with like any game system I've tried so far including Infinity. As soon as you come into clubs (or maybe even get into competitive play), you have never enough minis, never the right minis and never the right factions ;)

[@rex4873]

I’m probably the anomaly but I’m on the hype train because of A: massive battles always call out to me and it’s what drew me to 40K. B: I really like the story and setting. C: I’m in love with modeling so for me 20 models with a lot of detail for 80 dollars seems like a better deal than 1 model for 60-75 dollars with far less detail.

[@PHOROSxxEYE]

1. Were do people keep getting the idea of HH being above 2k? Even the new rule say 2k is base game size. 2 oh no you may need to buy some extra stuff, no its optional also that's marketing they always try to over sell stuff its not my fault is you fall for it. 3. The other games you show look good but one is cheaper as it's a smaller scale and the other looks fine.

[@fuzztsimmers3415]

im on a not giving gw money train.

[@combatwombat2134]

I wholly respect and understand your point of view, here, but I feel like I'm too deep down the GW shill hole and I just feel excited. I've been so disillusioned with 9th which stated from late 8th and whilst AoS sated some of my concerns because I could buy into the fun aspect of it. Heresy, to me, represents a throwback to the times I enjoyed Warhammer the most. Whilst I started in second or third, I found my absolute legs in 4th and relished it as a hobby between then and 6th. I took a drop out sometime into 6th and didn't play until the end of 7th again but it was never quite the same. I'm caught up in that hype, nostalgia and novelty. I'm looking forward to having a painted army for Heresy; it appeals to me. If that is me being a shill, then I have to accept it and just agree that I'm down that hole. It sucks to know that GW isn't as in it as they used to be, but I'm just too blanket ignorant to stop them bending me over a barrel. 😂

[@BlastastiC]

Horus Heresy is scratching an itch for me 100%. However. For me that looks like rank upon rank of Iron Warriors in Mk3 armour 😎 So it’ll be the re-released 20 man Mk3 marines box for me and a couple of those new plastic Deimos Rhinos and the plastic Sicaran when it lands. Unfortunately that means the big box isn’t much value for me, but self awareness is half the battle 😂

[@BlastastiC]

The main thing I’m done with is the ludicrous book treadmill - I don’t play GW games nearly enough for it to be in any way worth it.

[@UnspeakingXVII]

just put mk3 helms on the mk6 bodies. it doesnt look that bad

[@40kWarpHeroes]

oh please ...buy two boxes

[@LARPBeard]

Not into buying minis ever again since I got my 3d printer, ok some infinity once in a while. But Horus Heresy looks like a good place to try some of The Maker's Cult Tempest Legion as thunder warriors. Or making some Emperor's Children. Got a bunch of good resin waiting :)

[@schemesof40k]

GW has now said their going to completely change Commander Points! This will make my 40k army unplayable!

[@TesseractMinis]

I've heard mixed reactions to this, from different people. A lot of folk are saying they feel like it'll make the game better, but I haven't really heard much discourse about it breaking people's armies. Is this a widespread result of the change?

[@lazzarus7673]

Hi, i agree, GW in general is too expensive for tabletop games. HH will be really expensiv….. For me, i will buy the box, i‘m not a gamer anymore. Just have fun to build, kitbash and paint the Space Marines. I love the HH books and wanna try to build some stuff out of the storys. The box give a lot if stuff for my future projects, it will last for 2-3 years, without buying any other stuff. From a gamers perspective i would not buy it. Too much money with the current prices….sad….hopefully they will change everything more towards the gaming aspect then the money… something in between the old days in the 90‘s and now. It was fun back then in the stores. Playing and painting together, just having fun, these where good days. We only had two or three shops in Switzerland. Have a nice day everybody.

[@seankavanagh3742]

To be honest this is really making me itchy, I loved Epic and this has an air of just that but...and it's a big but...it's so expensive! And on going expensive! For me I think I am going to stay with Battletech, it's not Epic, but it is Epic!

[@TesseractMinis]

Hey if you dig Epic, Sean, take another look at the other game I mentioned in this video - Dropzone Commander! It's 10mm scale (similar to epic) and the starter box is only £45!

[@seankavanagh3742]

@@TesseractMinis I have had my eye on that game for years but thought it had died a death some time ago...maybe time for another look.

[@TesseractMinis]

It got picked back up a few years back by TTCombat and they've been reinvigorating it. Lots of new releases coming over the last couple of years.

[@MadMax-el2el]

Well my take on the box, is for the "GW" hobby dollar, the box is amazing. But after 20 plus years of being around GW my question was what is the catch. As you pointed out weapons packs. I hate the fact that was my knee-jerk reaction, not hype or inspired to go read up on lore so I could find a legion. Or just stick with my emperors children or world eaters from the 90s. No my thoughts were simply what is the catch. The catch as you pointed out are the endless upgrades. Good luck HH players, I will stick with my daemons most of which are 3d printed or 90s metal now. Because F GW's ancient plastic rank n flank sculpts they are just lifeless Also infinity saved me, my word the metal is so nice after years of plastic. The game balance save 26ish profiles is great. Game play is a total joy. Collection foot print is amazing, I have 4 armies in less space than 1 40k army.

[@TesseractMinis]

It's scary how much you sound exactly like me. Including your game of choice 😂

[@MadMax-el2el]

@@TesseractMinis try battletech if you want a oh damn, moment. I have 2 3d printed lances, then a dozen metal mechs from the 90s. We just proxy everything, only two limitations are, the proxy must be by mech weight, then clan or innersphere. But my entire battletech mechs, tanks, Infantry, areotech all fit on a single tray with enough room to double the collection (currently occupied by buildings terrain) if we ever went with non proxy, but that's not happening. I am just glad my battletech group went from 5 players to 15 over the past two years.

[@TesseractMinis]

I play a bit of Battletech! Also a HUGE fan of the audio books, read by Tren Sparks.

[@MadMax-el2el]

@@TesseractMinis well your take on morats is fairly spot on, but coming from jsa that is not shocking. There is enough overlap that a lot of the lessons learnt just transfer over. just toss in a raicho, drones and some daturazi. The Yaogat Sniper that just came out is also a needed unit. The other thing you will need are a pair of the ancient ikadrons, 9 points for baggage and lightflame thrower +1b is hilarious.

[@bopaintsminis]

The only kit that even remotely interests me is the deimos pattern rhino as a proxie in a sisters army. And that is just because the sisters rhino is a major ripoff.

[@TesseractMinis]

Yeah I think we'll see a TON of those rhinos in 40K! 😍

[@bopaintsminis]

And I will bet there are tons of 3D printed bits out there to customize them for your desired faction.

[@Rostislav0104]

Very sobering video, thank you

[@BB-pn2qv]

Well. Said.

[@deleonfrancis60]

I bought the box set Love the horse heresy novels working on my iron warriors and Imperial fist army I have the betrayal At Calth box set Yeah I agree the box that they release right now is a little bit too pricey I would recommend by reducing the option like they did in the beginning ninth edition one troop choice One each HQ for each side and how to play the game rule set make it balance like the kill team set I got my Horus heresy box set it for a discount for 260$ at my local game store but it’s still very pricey to me.

[@tutekstarkiller827]

WH40k Weterans ruined beacuse Games Workshop is too expensive... What a hell?

[@MrDecelles]

They are marines. plastic marines. and it is not a skirmish game.

[@mycatistypingthis5450]

I really dislike space marines, so this box has nothing for me. 52 almost identical space fascists, a box with tracks and a decent mech is just no value.

[@TesseractMinis]

I definitely think there'll be a fair chunk of people who share your view there.

[@mikehendon7327]

It's Games Workshop, it belongs in the Harbor. I still refuse to buy their hobby supplies, I'm not about to go in on another of their overpriced crack-pipes of a game that they'll just abandon when it stops being convenient. This, mind, on top of the fact that I never really LIKED playing Space Marines. I played Tau in 4th, because everyone else was only playing Space Marines (and, rarely, Tyranids). WHY WOULD I PLAY A GAME OF NOTHING BUT SPACE MARINES. The rule-set is a return to 40k and all, and that makes me some degree of happy...but I really have no interest in playing the game of "Space Marines Allied With Space Marines Against Other, Spikier Space Marines". This is hollow pandering to older players, and they'll just abandon everyone they bring back, as soon as they feel like it. After all, what were their words? "You will not be missed". I give those words back unto the traitors, liars, thieves and tyrants that GW has become. Let them rot.

[@sonofsek69]

I bought the HH box set as some mates of mine are wanting to get into it (they're getting their own), otherwise I probably wouldn't have. F buying those weapon packs, that's far too much to pay (says the guy who just spent £180). You do make very valid points, though. Whilst I can afford it, it's at the limit of what I'm personally willing to pay. Carnevale is a very fun game. I mostly play as Strigoi but bought a box of Vatican knights as I liked their look. I do like that the buy in for Carnevale is so cheap in comparison.

[@stevejennings2394]

Too cool for Horus Heresy…

[@SupermarketZombies]

That Carnevale game looks neat. The figures look like they would be perfect for my students' Wilds Beyond the Witchlight campaign

[@TesseractMinis]

The minis are really fun and I see a TON of reuse opportunities there, for sure! It also has a lighter starter box that's only £35!

[@ironbomb6753]

To each his own. Horus Heresy has given me my fix, and I'm finally out of the stupidity of 40k never ending "game balance" rules. HH gave me that 1987 feeling again. 👍

[@Dennis3113]

Well but the Lore behind every single Unit in Warhammer 40k as well as in Horus Heresy is uncomparable to this cheap Miniature Startersets. And with the Models you do fund the entire Universe this isnt made out of thin air every single Book that came out in the last couple of years where made with a serious amount of seriousness to the setting of the World. Even though we have several Authors writing about the same Primarchs or Characters they all feel very similiar and this is value that you cant easily compare. Well you can crush this very fast by selling your rights to Companys like Amazone or Disney but i for my Part rather spent more Money on Games Workshop as long as thats ensures the Grim Dark Universe that i enjoy without any controversial topic like why arent there any Female Primarchs or stuff like that.

[@lemon-le5lb]

Pretty bad take honestly. The box its self for the minitures in there is a great value. Hating on this is like hating on the other starter sets. Its not meant to be the whole end all be all answer and en entire army in a box, its just meant to get you started or add onto existing force. Your points you try and make are kinda moot when you consider its the same situation with ANY GW box save for the boxed games IE kill team. If you dont wanna buy it cus it does not appeal to you, thats fair, but saying its not good is just completly not true.

[@Cosmoproto]

Not what he said but ok

[@TesseractMinis]

Not even a little bit what I said 😂

[@StormcastMarine]

Imagine making a video about the stuff you don't want to buy Channel -> about -> block

[@matthewwhiting2645]

my problem with non GW minis is they just dont look good, the quality is nowhere near.

[@TesseractMinis]

I really strongly disagree. Have you seen the minis for Infinity by Corvus Belli? They leave GWs pieces in the dust. Or One Page Rules printable minis? Also way nicer quality sculpts. Then there's stuff like Creature Caster, which is at least AS good as GW. Even in the world of hard styrene, Victrix plastics are way crisper and better quality, even if the sculpts are simpler. There's honestly tons of stuff that's as good or better than GWs miniatures. Combined with the fact that GW kits are really unfriendly toward sub assembly and they honestly rank about in the middle for me. Definitely not the worst, but far from the best.

[@osama7639]

3D printer buy the books

[@gregbarrett8034]

Fully agree HH is a rip off too far. Bad enough years of collecting now out of date due to Primaris. Prices are now huge, model assembly restricted - no free posing, nah enough is enough.

[@Smallgoth]

Games workshop is fucking awful and doesn’t deserve its position in the industry