The Hudson Valley Squares: Are They Metal? Are They Hard Rock?

[@stevemcnary7963]

Glad to have Butch, Chris & Sydney back!

[@independenceltd.]

Chris Alo Hit the nail on the head with his US festival comment. Nobody blinked an eye when all those bands played on heavy metal day in 1983.

[@larsschneider2378]

Great to have Butch back! Fun topic, too - you could have easily continued for another hour!

[@tmc1054]

Metal is closer to punk to having an aggressive attitude and sound, but being more proficient with their instruments. Hard rock is all about swagger. It's all rock and roll, and I like it!

[@AudriusAlkauskas]

Yes, it's all rock and roll and we like it!

[@kevinhampton6986]

Rush was definitely a progressive metal band through the 70s. Not only due to the heaviness of Lifeson's playing, but I say Geddy Lee's screaming vocals put them into the metal genre. They became a progressive hard rock band in the 80s and stayed in that realm for the rest of their career (even after synths were put away), largely because Lee's vocals had changed drastically.

[@jerryattwooll4864]

Thanks to all of you, yet another really enjoyable and entertaining show thought provoking too. Interestingly when I was at school, all those years ago, back in the mists of time, early to mid 70s the term most commonly used then to describe the hard rock heavy bands of that era was Heavy Rock, Zeppelin, Purple, Sabbath, Heep, Free Hendrix, Cream, Mountain, Bad Co, early Queen, BOC, Kiss, Nugent, Aerosmith, Lizzy all labelled heavy rock. Heavy Metal as a term used to still describe these bands started being used in the mid to late 70s.

[@meatjuice9081]

I think a lot of 70s hard rock bands can honorarily be called metal due to how much they contributed to the genre. UFO's not a metal band, but they introduced the gallop rhythm and Schenker influenced every thrash guitarist (Mustaine, Kirk, Dan Spitz, Gary Holt, Jeff Waters). Van Halen's not a metal band but Eddie caused the guitar boom of the 80s and everyone from cock rock to thrash to do tapping. Thin Lizzy's not a metal band (Not until 1983) but they popularized twin guitar leads and lyrics that told stories

[@Gregbaltzer]

they contributed to the DNA of metal

[@KevinQ1989]

70s heavy metal bands: Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Riot, Motorhead, Budgie, Van Halen and Scorpions. 70s hard rock bands : Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Thin Lizzy, AC/DC, Uriah Heep, Aerosmith, KISS, The Who and Boston.

[@stuartdunne1978]

Awesome to see Butch back - it's been a while Butch, welcome back (always enjoy butch's album reviews on the SoT website).

[@federicomartin5044]

Great show and fantastic topic. I think in the early years of the genre, most bands were either labeled as "heavy rock", "hard rock" or "heavy metal" indistinctly. However, things changed in the late 70s-early 80s when the NWOBHM came in. Those bands who shared that sound were labeled as heavy metal, as opposed to lighter sounding bands. Regarding to all 80s "Hair Metal" bands, I prefer to use the term Glam Metal or Glam Hard Rock. They have hard rock/metallic sound but with glam-esque imagery (makeup, hairdos, dressing).

[@excelsiormoviereviews]

Happy to see you back, Butch!

[@user-hf8hm4bv3y]

Thank you, The Hudson Valley Squares! Greetings from Finland!

[@takodabostwick8507]

KZbinrs like you are the reason why we are reliving on nostalgia! Music has given us nostalgia for a very long time, good or bad. I live on nostalgia. We all live on nostalgia. Good of bad, we know that are some fans of that band or artist and they get connected with the music.

[@wolf1977]

Kiss is a perfect example in my mind

[@Danimal77]

Scorpions, Queen, Budgie, Motorhead, Rush, Kiss, AC/DC, UFO, Van Halen, Blue Oyster Cult, Ted Nugent, Aerosmith, Thin Lizzy, Rainbow, Alice Cooper, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, etc, were the bands that bridged the gap between heavy hard rock and what was to be known as heavy metal in the very late 70's/early 80's (Accept, Saxon, Holocaust, Discharge, Diamond Head, Witchfynde, Iron Maiden, Tank, Witchfinder General, Samson, Mercyful Fate, Judas Priest, Tygers Of Pan Tang, Raven, Venom, Anvil, Queensryche, Manowar, early Def Leppard, etc).

[@mannyruiz1954]

I'm 63. The songs that started me headbanging way back when were titled: Sunshine of Your Love, Purple Haze, Summertime Blues (by Blue Cheer), Black Dog and Whole Lotta Love.

[@malco49]

so nice to see a lot of the gang IE sydney and butch back! two new guys seem very knowledgeable as well.

[@liquidvizionsmadferit]

Kiss is a hard one because they had metal moments. Creatures and Lick it up album. Animalize and Asylum is pretty heavy at moments as well. But then they do stuff like Crazy Nights so you don't know what to think. It's like is this Foreigner? Like how did you go from those albums to that. I mean I like some of the stuff on Crazy Nights but Turn on the Night? My Way? It's a tough listen. It's like dancey foreigner.

[@frankrehm3650]

Thank you for this brilliantly done Hudson Valley Squares. Agree. ~ Punk definitely helped define these two different types of music, during the early 80's. Before that point, most followers were using the terms Heavy Metal and Hard Rock - with a very fine line between the two.

[@747jono]

Welcome back Sydney,Chris and Butch good to see you 😀 😊

[@diannecarpenter7718]

I enjoyed listening and watching to this video. Thank you. All the damn time. 🎤🎵🎸🥁 Life is better with music.

[@galvawave8403]

I think it becomes a lot simpler when you just acknowledge "traditional heavy metal" and "extreme metal" are the two separate sections with thrash being the link between the two. The more metallic hard rock and "glam" bands, and even power metal bands fit pretty snugly next to "traditional" "heavy metal" bands, and then you have the flipside of bands who went the extreme route and you can't really judge the two by the same merit, it's kind of like how original punk rock sounds nothing like grindcore or post-hardcore yet both are part of the same evolutionary line.

[@SuperTugz]

But I think it gets more complex than that, because we can take "hair metal" and break that down a lot. IMO WASP/Dokken/Twisted Sister = metal; Whitesnake/Poison/Ratt = not metal. Motley Crue first 2 albums = metal, after that not metal. Def Leppard first album = metal but after that not metal. Most people don't necessarily notice the musical differences particularly in the style of riffage so they get lumped together by image/look which has zero effect on musical genre

[@MrZenkman]

Would you consider The Sweet (Sweet Fanny Adams) a pre cursor to glam metal? That was all the way back to 1974.

[@wolf1977]

I'd say more glam rock (and actually absolutely glam rock all the way) than glam "metal". Like (some) Bowie & absolutely a band like T Rex, maybe the grandfather of glam (rock or metal) in the late 60's

[@CB-xr1eg]

@@wolf1977 T.Rex were an early 70's band and Marc Bolan invented Glam Rock. Bowie followed him but ditched the style after Aladdin Sane.

[@jeffaudrain2753]

Being an old guy, I would submit that Steppenwolf was the very first prototype of heavy metal. And not necessarily because of the lyric from Born to be Wild. This band never ever gets its due.

[@geruto17760]

Absolutely spot on!

[@wolf1977]

Over in the ongoing 30 Most Important Hard Rock/Metal Albums" series Pete stated that he didn't consider them a heavy band at all so you won't get agreement from him here. I picked them as one of my 30 album picks though, if not for their first then definitely for Steppenwolf 7

[@christopherhoffman201]

Blue Cheer?

[@wolf1977]

@@christopherhoffman201 Sure they're on my list of 30

[@TheCornishCockney]

Could possibly go back further to the kinks and the who with guitar driven rock. Everyone has influenced somebody,no crime in that but rap steals wholesale and which is why that genre is alien to me. By the way,they are Motörhead and they played rock n roll !

[@joedolenza7944]

Wow great conversation going on. These shows could go three hours...easily!

[@kevinsmith7-7-7]

I'm here for Sydney Taylor, No Disrespect Just Kidding Pete, Thanks for all the Great Content as usual been subbed for 4 yrs you are a go to channel for all things Rock, Metal, Prog and Horror

[@hellojimmypage]

Roger Glover can be seen wearing a bullet belt on the photos of the Fireball vinyl back cover, that's way back in '71.

[@markc.2824]

Good to have Butch back on HVS, we have missed you...

[@sharkmedia5969]

Part of the problem with classifying these bands is that Hard Rock and Heavy Metal share a great deal of a common audience. They are so related that they share common DNA. My first exposure to the term Heavy Metal was a compilation album that featured bands as diverse as Black Sabbath, Yes, Allman Brothers, J. Geils and a bunch of other bands that mostly would be described as classic rock today. I think there was an evolution that eventually separated some bands from others and Heavy Metal as we know it, emerged, chiefly identified by a crunchier guitar tone but by other factors as well. And metal has continued to emerge and evolve along the way.

[@rodcrispo5859]

Good to see Butch back 🤘🏻

[@g-pa-Rok-n-Tok]

Butch!! You're Back! The 1st time I saw Priest was the Stained Class tour. No leather, lotsa Metal. To me, metal was Sabbath and Priest back in the 70's. Everything else was hard rock. But that's not bad! 70's were a Blast!

[@keviniles8748]

This is such an interesting discussion because Metal is a genre where I feel the dividing line between what is "Metal" and what is "Rock" has been in constant flux over the decades in a way that no other genre has experienced. As Metal has evolved and bands have gotten heavier and more aggressive, the earlier stuff that was once considered Metal gets retconned into being just "Hard Rock," but that doesn't happen to any other genre that I know of. For instance, Rock music has evolved quite a lot since it's inception in the 1950s and an artist like Chuck Berry doesn't fit into what we now consider Rock music. It's closer to Blues and early R&B, BUT Chuck Berry has not been retroactively deemed Blues because it doesn't sound like modern Rock. He's still considered "Rock n Roll."

[@wolf1977]

Unfortunately I think something similar has happened to "R&B" over the years. What was labeled as such in the 60's (you know: James Brown, Marvin Gaye, little Stevie Wonder, Booker T, much of Motown etc) has nothing to do with modern R&B which I find to be mostly unlistenable pop that may or may not have some roots in blues & real r&b/soul. I've seen "contemporary r&b" defined as "a music genre that combines rhythm and blues with elements of pop, soul, funk, hip hop and electronic music", and to me way too focused on those hip hop/electronic elements for comfort. Maybe the added term "contemporary" is enough to offset the modern version from the original 60's take but many today just refer to it as r&b which makes me cringe

[@jlcougilljr]

and Dan huff even did some guitar work for White Snake , he's one of my favorite guitarists

[@bradjackson4595]

Great to see Butch back. V Interesting Discussion as always!

[@marklangham4337]

Another GREAT episode of the HVS!!!! So much fun!!!!

[@SuperTugz]

I've heard people have this debate before but have no idea what they're talking about. But these people, they know what they're talking about! Finally people who understand the musical differences in the "hair meta bands" that determine why I believe Dokken and WASP = metal; but Poison, Ratt = hard rock. And why Motley Crue's first album or two = metal but not so much later in their career. I get weird looks sometimes when I say these things but these guys get it 😂

[@danielwolski873]

One of the best Hudson Valley episodes in a long time!

[@parishofrock2963]

Great show. That age old question hard rock or heavy metal? Growing up in in the UK in the 70s to me it always came down to the sound. Sabbath, Priest, early Rainbow we’re metal. UFO, Purple, Lizzy were hard rock. America generally didn’t do metal, although early Kiss (100,000 years, Parasite, She) & Ted Nugent came close. Then came NWOBHM which despite its name represented both - eg: Maiden was HM & Leppard was HR. However there were a few bands which led to plenty of fun filled debate down the pub, i remember AC/DC, Motörhead, early Rush, Blackfoot & Whitesnake in particular. Then came the 80s, where everything was sufficed with the metal tag - Trash, Doom, Death, Power, Hair/Glam etc. IMO some of these bands have that metallic sound, some don’t. Now a days I don’t really think about it. I like what I like.

[@carlpeterson8182]

Metal is not so much determined by how hard the music is but by how the music is played. The way Black Sabbath tuned their guitars is a good example. Also there are certain song styles and rythms are metal. Running with the Devil is a heavy metal song even if VH is not a metal band. It fits a certain style. I know a metal song also when I hear those triplets or maybe the use of a double bass drum pedals. I remember hearing Dream Theater's Metropolis and knew it was progressive metal because it had all the metal tropes. At points it is almost like Mettallica is playing except DT are much more talented (as a whole band- sorry Lars) . But I think metal is more of styles of songs and other stylistic metal tropes. Some hard rock bands play some harder songs but are not metal because their song styles are more rock oriented.

[@dvg4104]

First Van Halen album has songs like "On Fire" and "Running With The Devil," but also songs like "Jamie's Crying." They were just well-rounded, probably because they'd played the bar scene for years.

[@rolltide91011]

Awesome topic! Good job, guys!

[@stevefletcher6163]

I'm the same age and background as Joe Elliot and Heavy Rock was the term we used growing up for almost all these bands, including Lizzy, Scorpions, Rush, Van Halen Def Leppard, Zepplin, Purple ,.UFO, ac/dc Metal was only really used for Priest and Sabbath and very little else until Maiden and Saxon and other NWBHM bands and then Metallica, Anthrax .. Think it was really Geoff Barton coining the label New Wave of British Heavy Metal and starting Kerrang that brought the Heavy Metal label into general use, and was used as a catch all term by the mainstream media.

[@dvg4104]

Back in 1981 or 1982, Joe Elliott called Def Leppard "light alloy."

[@sammyorr2265]

Loved this topic. One of my favorite episodes of all time.

[@LeatherRebel75]

I'm one of those people who loves all the brutally heavy stuff, but I grew up on all the glam and pop metal, and I still love all that stuff.

[@fourseasons4105]

I think the problem is people looking at metal as too much of a relative term, meaning that the heaviest artist compared to anything else of the era you are the more metal you are, which is in my opinion the wrong way of looking at it. Metal has a very specific mentality and musicality to it that hard rock lacks, it's dark and disturbing, it's more technical, it uses a much larger vocabulary of tonality (the use of tritones, diminished scales, neoclassical harmony, etc) as compared to the much more blues, minor pentatonic based hard rock sound, and last but not least the more exaggerated, horrific lyrical themes.

[@Cornelius798]

Many talk about proto metal .. bands such as 70's Pentagram, Lucifer's Friend, Atomic Rooster, Dust, Buffalo, Sir Lord Baltimore, Budgie. In my opinion Black Sabbath created the metal sword, Judas Priest sharpened the metal sword.

[@patrickcampbell1173]

The line of demarcation regarding 'metal' status is one word: AGRESSION.

[@brandonbelt5055]

The dividing line for me is in the drumming; rock's aim is to swing and metal's aim is pulverizing precision. I feel like Bill Ward and Bohnam are the only two drummers that are masters of both styles.

[@wolf1977]

Also double bass drums

[@stevewhiteside4525]

Great tie in with 30 most ..., hearing how some of those albums were an important influence but not considered that heavy now.

[@arunsabherwal6256]

first up reaction - very happy to see Butch is back. Maybe he will be in the guitar corner as well ? Missed him, buorboning and his awesome picks last few weeks. Was wondering if he's alright ? Or Martin's comment on Tommy Bolin had upset him too much ? ...but anyway great to see that he's BACK 👍🤘

[@johnmichaelwilliams6694]

First and foremost, welcome back, Butch! Next, welcome to the newer faces in the Squares this week. And last, thanks for having this discussion on the HVS episode. In the recent SoT review by Pete of Tremonti's "Marching In Time", mentioned in the comments that I was not always clear on what was metal and what was and even asked for some commenters' thoughts on helping me understand. Special shout out to Rocio tribe and RG for their comments and thoughts on the matter at that time. But also really enjoyed everyone's views expressed here which re-taught me a lesson - everything changes. And that includes the definition of what is metal or 'heavy metal'. As an older geezer than any of the participants, some of what we thought was heavy metal [or treated as such by the music press of the time] is now viewed more in a hard rock genre or some other metal genre. So the line - while still blurry - moves continually. Again, really enjoyed this episode for its timeliness - at least to me. Thanks again to all the Squares - new and not so new - for another must-see episode.

[@NoineNoineNoine]

great show. thanks Pete.

[@scarfface24]

Experience : when I was a teenager in the early 80’s, all us kids who listened and preferred “heavy metal” tended to appoint this term to all the “hard rock” (as they are called NOW) bands we liked ! For us, AC/DC were “heavy metal”, UFO, Scorpions, Thin Lizzy, Rainbow, Whitesnake, Aerosmith, B.Ö.C. and all the 70’s great bands were “heavy metal”, as well as the pioneers like Sabbath, Purple, Zeppelin and Uriah Heep ! The “metal” magazines also called all of those bands “heavy metal” in the 80’s ! Fact : ever since things kept getting heavier and heavier (from the birth of thrash metal and after), the perspective of the fans gradually changed, which is totally understandable! What was heavy in the 70’s (mostly soundwise, vocal-wise etc), even the seminal Judas Priest of the 70’s, sounds quite soft compared to the “metal” of the last 20-30 years ! Indisputable fact : In the early 80’s there was a movement which was IMMEDIATELY called “NEW Wave of British Heavy Metal” - this can only mean that there was an “older” wave of heavy metal BEFORE, and that should include many more bands than Judas Priest (who first really defined and embraced the term “heavy metal”) and 1-2 other bands (which I cannot think of now) !!!! CONCLUSION: Despite the criteria stated in your lovely discussion (Butch and Alo made some plausible and valid points), one has to accept that many of the 70’s bands you mentioned WERE indeed “heavy metal” IN THEIR TIME (or by the early 80’s standards, if you prefer). The meaning of the term “heavy metal” (or the “criteria” that separate metal from “hard rock” or “heavy rock”) has definitely CHANGED through the decades, so noone can really discuss this topic without regarding the TIME of the actual discussion !!

[@paulh6673]

The evolution of the term along with the music itself is the key point. I can completely understand why some folks insist certain 70s bands are 'heavy metal' because they grew up with them being called that, and in many cases there are very fine lines anyway. But as I understand it, the term 'heavy metal' may have been bandied around but wasn't used in a defined way until the very late 70s, and then became obvious with NWOBHM. When Sabbath, Purple and Led Zep started the term wasn't used and all of those bands were insulted when 'heavy metal' was applied to them after the fact. So when heavy metal became a marketable phenomenon, obviously people looked back to see where it all came from (if this is a new wave, what was the first wave?), and for at least a decade, let's say 78-88, no one would flinch at AC/DC or Nugent or UFO (for instance) being called metal along with those originators. But over time, and once the underground influence of Venom and early thrash bubbled over into actual gold and platinum albums via the big 4, people could see a clearer dividing line. And that may have had to do with things like bands having songs about nuclear war and pollution vs songs about cruising in your Corvette and having your heart broken in a bathroom stall. (And somewhere in between those extrenes both chronologically and subject matter-wise were the mythology and imagery brought into it with Rainbow, Judas Priest, Motorhead, Iron Maiden, Saxon etc - fantasy, horror, leather, studs, bulletbelts, dragons)

[@ramonace4770]

I heard the term Heavy Metal in the early eighties for the first time with albums like British Steel and all the NWOBHM Bands, Maiden, Saxon, etc.. Purple, Sabbath, Zeppelin, Kiss, even Priest were considered hard rock bands, the term Metal came way after.

[@carlmarks8170]

The fact that journos labelled a group of bands as the "new wave of British heavy metal" is a pretty good clue that the term 'heavy metal" was already being used to describe existing heavy metal bands.. I always thought "hard rock", "heavy rock" and "heavy metal" were interchangeable terms used to describe the same group of bands. People only got picky about it in the 80's - some bands wanted to distance themselves from the all-male domain that heavy metal catered to.

[@Geerladenlad]

Was Butch successful in finding John Sykes?🙂

[@mbdowney1]

Somebody once said that they did not know how to define pornography, but they knew it when they saw it. Well, same goes for Metal. You can argue about how to define it, but everyone knows when they hear it.

[@petegreenfield3645]

Growing up in the UK most UK fans used the term Heavy Rock in the late 70s. in fact the term Heavy Metal was somewhat frowned upon by fans of Sabbath, Purple etc, and didn't gain wide traction until the emergence of bands like Maiden and Saxon.

[@stephenbrown4211]

Being from across the pond I see early HM having an industrial doom sound as bands like Sabbath, Priest and Budgie came from bleak industrial areas. When NWOBHM came along, they tended to be punk/New Wave influenced, especially London band. Listen to early Iron Maiden Angelwitch Samson and, being contentious, Motörhead. I know what Lemmy said but they hung around with Punk bands like the Damned and Cockney Reject. That rubbed off on them to create that fast bombastic sound. The Rejects even covered the song Motörhead. Listen to Girlschool, definitely punk influenced. I once read an article in Sounds that defined NWOBHM as bands that originally played punk but wanted to get back to a harder rock sound so grew their hair and turned the volume up to eleven Hard Rock bands to me tend to be blues based. I had one pet hate which was the British media would lump every band as HM. To them Whitesnake Thin Lizzy AC/DC even Zeppelin were HM.

[@TheCornishCockney]

Music industry pundits. Yes,if you say so. I only got melody maker and nme for tour dates and reviews of gigs I attended. Their opinions I would laugh at it and generally think,you don’t know do you. The very worst offender of course is Rolling Stone magazine. Pompous,critical garbage.

[@stephenbrown4211]

@@TheCornishCockney so you say I don’t know about music.okay I’ll unsubscribe but thanks for the insult

[@mr.jamesvincent3519]

I know it's only Heavy Metal but, I like it, like it, yes I do!!

[@jeffreyrobinson9120]

As Justice Potter Stewart once said about porn, " I know it when I see it", when it comes to metal, I know it when I hear it.

[@wolf1977]

There are some bands where it depends on the day as to whether I'd call them metal or not. Like Def Leppard, most of the time I'd say they're hard rock but some days they can creep into the metal category (under sub genre hair/glam metal). At that point you're really splitting hairs (get it?). I think the same can happen to many of the hair metal/glam metal bands

[@arnaudb.7669]

Hard Rock : you can hear the influence of the blues Heavy-Metal : you can't

[@wolf1977]

Yes I like that test. Maybe not 100% conclusive but a great place to start. It automatically filters out early bands like Cream, Purple, Led Zep etc as hard rock. Then apply the rest of the metal criteria as outlined in these posts. When I do that I always come away with Judas Priest as the first true/modern heavy metal band (and arguably Sabbath as the first band/album to actually earn the metal label, but they still didn't have that "modern" heavy metal sound yet)

[@Danimal77]

Lyrical content plays a huge factor in it as well. Heavy metal bands tended to write about much DARKER and serious things (war, the devil, injustices, etc.)

[@wolf1977]

Yes that's one of my criteria for what makes metal metal

[@RandyDubin]

Deep Purple is a perfect example of this IMO.

[@devonmiles292]

I don't know how it was in the US, but the term 'heavy rock' was used for all the harder stuff in the 70's.

[@takodabostwick8507]

Lemmy also mentioned he was a Chuck Berry and Little Richard. He also said that Eddie Cochran was the reason why he started getting interested by becoming a musician.

[@Gregbaltzer]

Lemmy said the reason he got into music was to get laid.

[@ronaldsmith1484]

...... Speaking of AC/DC... I think they're 1970s rock anthems.... Paved the way for what 80s rock music would sound like...... The album's highway to hell and back in Black..... Was the bridge that connected the late '70s into the 80s

[@takodabostwick8507]

I put 4 glam metal bands up in my top 40 for metal bands of all time! I have a couple other glam bands on there, but I'm a huge fan of other metal bands too! I'm not embarrassed that I love glam bands! They were definitely bands that know how to have fun!

[@tylerpatterson4787]

What are your 4 bands?

[@takodabostwick8507]

@@tylerpatterson4787 Dokken, Motley Crue Ratt, and WASP! Love these bands to death! I think they're very awesome bands!

[@tylerpatterson4787]

I like Dokken, Ratt, Motley Crue, Tesla, and Def Leppard from that era

[@takodabostwick8507]

@@tylerpatterson4787 Def Leppard and Tesla are awesome too. I actually named my dog after the band. My parents always name our dog after cars. I named if after the band, my dad after the car, and my mom after the scientist. It's a win win win situation!

[@tylerpatterson4787]

That’s awesome yea I don’t have a lot of dislike bands in the world of rock and metal, I’m like Pete not a dislike person, I’m just glad to listen to rock music all the time.

[@EvilVonRetee]

Butch, you nailed it with the idea of heavy rock. It is just the perfect term for lots of classic, "heavier" hard rock bands. When I was young in the 80's, that term was actually used a lot in the music magazines etc., at least here in Finland. Balls to the Wall era Accept comes to mind immediately when thinking of heavy rock.

[@toddschulz2807]

Pete, I have an idea for a simple show. It is something I have been doing with my music interested friends. Throw out 2 names of bands or artists and it is a simple choice where they pick one that they like better than the other and explain why. An example I used the other day was Megadeth or Metallica? Zeppelin or Pink Floyd. You get the idea. It always is interesting to get other perspectives on this. Keep up the good work.

[@hrothgar64]

Chris mentioned the old issues of Kerrang! I still have issue number 1. It was billed as "The Sounds Heavy Metal Special" (for those that don't know, Sounds was a weekly "ink-y " paper). The names featured in that magazine included Styx and Pat Benatar, alongside AC/DC, Motorhead, Vardis, Rose Tattoo etc. None of whom would be classed as heavy metal now.

[@nate-ds9tg]

Motorhead would definitely be considered metal now. Because, well, they are.

[@hrothgar64]

@@nate-ds9tg Erm... Nope. Lemmy always said they were a rock 'n' roll band, he never regarded them as a metal band. Their entrance at live shows was the three of them walking on stage, getting behind their instruments and Lemmy saying "Good evening, (whatever town/city they were in>. We are Motorhead and we play Rock N Roll". Then straight into the first song.

[@nate-ds9tg]

@@hrothgar64 So if The Beatles called themselves a metal band would that automatically make them metal? Of course not. Listen to the entire Motorhead discography. They are metal.

[@lance98541]

I have been listening to heavy bands since 1973, but I am pretty sure I didn't even hear the heavy metal term till the late 70s at the earliest.

[@independenceltd.]

It was first used in print to describe Sir Lord Baltimore in 1971.

[@wolf1977]

@@independenceltd. A very good 70's hard rock band

[@dereks7745]

Butch!!!!!!! 😁😁 The GOAT is back.

[@catsofsherman1316]

Butch is the Paul Lynde of the Hudson Valley Squares

[@sammyorr2265]

That cover art on the second Winger album is pretty metal though. It looks like an album cover from a mid 80s traditional heavy metal band

[@jeffreywebb7932]

I love Butchs attitude,"fuck that guy from Mastodon,I aint going to see them anymore"🤣Sounds like something I would say.Great show guys👍🤘

[@Danimal77]

Lemmy until the day he died said he played "rock n roll" and never considered himself a metal band, but damn, his albums were heavier, faster and thrashier than most heavy metal bands.

[@lahloonatic]

Very good to have Butch back. Mastodon's guitarist expressing an opinion on Priest makes any difference to the quality of the music of either. We have no idea what the tour was like, etc. All we see is the stage show, not the rest of the drama. Just sayin'.

[@guillermomaldonado6277]

I was thinking... what is "hard rock"? is it not rock with a bit of metal? I'm on vacations, too much free time haha; but really, I'd love another show with this topic, soooo much to discuss. 🍺🤘

[@dtltmtgt]

Motorhead was exactly the band I was thinking. Right on Butch! Lemmy may not have liked the term, but they were metal.

[@blacksabbath1022]

Crazy the one band not mentioned was Thin Lizzy. I consider them hard rock but they were a band who was a major influence to the genre and could also do the heavy thing well. They had more metal elements than Kiss or ACDC.

[@bschuler6216]

Thin Lizzy had that dual axe attack. On a song like Emerald you can hear what Dave Murray & Adrian Smith would do a few years later in Iron Maiden. They probably influenced Denner & Shermann of Mercyful Fate too. Thin Lizzy was doing some interesting things that even rivaled the great Judas Priest in the 70's.

[@seang1979]

I’ve had the same debate with friends about what is metal, what is punk, and what is hardcore.

[@sammyorr2265]

I would say Dokken in the 80s were one of the glam metal bands that actually leaned more on the metal side . Compared to other heavy metal bands, they had more vocal harmony, more ballads, and more songs about love all around. Also a glam look at times.

[@stephanea5364]

Metal? They're soft af.

[@thetreeoflife6018]

I was that stoner in 1977 Did a Rush 2112 presentation in English class at high school - jaws dropped….

[@rogertemple7193]

Loverboy definitely not Heavy Metal but were often called Hard Rock by some people but I would refer to them as Power Pop.

[@TheTruth-pl3mk]

No issues with the bands mentioned but surprised that no one brought up Y&T, Tesla, Riot, Loudness and The Cult. They've all been in the conversation before, over the blurry line between Hard Rock and Heavy Metal.

[@sebastienlavoie9334]

Ryan is right, i'm in the ones who can listen to Slayer and switch to Cinderella without any problem.

[@Ryan-F.Y.T.S2006]

in terms of hard rock vs metal the biggest distinction is in the ear of the beholder. If you are experienced listening to heavy music you know what metal is and what hard rock is as soon as you hear it. People who are not as familiar with heavy music in general are the ones calling bands like Aerosmith, Kiss and Van Halen metal, when they are definitely hard rock. At one time some of these were referred to as metal simply because of their appearances, it is important to remember that appearances can be deceiving.

[@wolf1977]

Sure your personal experience with music definitely plays a role, I think here they're discussing "commonly held" opinions about hard rock vs metal & not from the standpoint of someone who's not used to hearing heavy music & thinks that The Bay City Rollers are a metal band

[@747jono]

Great show as always. Its a fantastic topic. And I find it strange that the newer groups of all metal genres never go back beyond 2000 wierd. Totally agree that Motorhead etc were a rock n roll band. Thin Lizzy etc rock band. Whitesnake and Def Leppard hard rock bands. Deep Purple are not Metal either. Great point the bands had heavier songs but not metal as you all said.

[@gagslv]

Great topic Pete. Thanks for giving the “King” his title. Best channel on KZbin.

[@stevemcnary7963]

Blue Oyster Cult lyrics, hook & cross symbol, dress & not smiling especially on the Black & White albums are heavy metal. They were even on the movie Heavy Metal soundtrack.

[@grimtraveller7923]

I'm glad Kerrang was mentioned. I used to buy it in its first year. I would recommend anyone read the first 10 or so editions, just to give some perspective. I do see that "Metal" is seen as distinct from the older heavy metal of the late 60s and 70s, in the same way that "Prog" is somewhat distinct from "Progressive rock." What people over the last 40 years have called progressive rock, is not what was labelled as progressive rock back in the late 60s and early 70s, although it included some of it. In 1968, the Steve Miller Band were regarded as progressive rock. In some quarters, Lifetime and the Mahavishnu orchestra were regarded as and marketed as, progressive rock. Black Sabbath, Santana and Spirit were regarded {and marketed} as progressive rock. But Genesis weren't, with their debut. There was often an interchangeability with psychedelia and early progressive rock. On the other hand, bands that didn't seem to have a home, like Glass harp and Forever More, fell into the progressive camp ~ but few would regard them as 'prog', which became stylized into what we think of now as progressive rock. The same thing happened with 'metal'. Life's funny.

[@lateramae]

Chris Alo was onto something when he said 20 years from now, heavy metal could be an entirely different thing. Just like how Zeppelin was considered metal since they were the heaviest thing at the time. In my opinion, I think heavy metal is defined by attitude, how heavy the music is (song lyrics included), the guitar tone, and their appearance. Take AC/DC, for example, they didn't really smile in pictures, they had that "we don't care what people think" attitude, but their music wasn't really heavy (despite the guitar tone from the early years). Black Sabbath had a dark feel, while AC/DC was more "I can head bang to this at a party, drink beer with my friends, and have a good time." As for glam metal, it's a weird term since it has the word "metal" in it, which is supposed to be tough and aggressive. Poison is considered a glam metal band, but in a weird way, that's like calling them a metal band overall, which is bizarre. So I think there should've been a better term for those glam metal bands.

[@wolf1977]

Yes all of that but other things too like the double bass drums (not required but when it is used it's almost always at least heavy if not outright metal), guitar down-tuning, the band's overall image (not just appearance, for example Kiss had the image but wasn't metal), lack of "sappy Ballads" & a heavy/plodding rhythm section

[@lateramae]

@@wolf1977 I forgot about sappy ballads, yes. But, I don't think Sabbath used double bass drums though, did they?

[@wolf1977]

@@lateramae They did, check out a pretty good online article by Drum Magazine on the subject called "Double Bass Legends: A Short History". They mention Ward along with Tommy Aldridge & Mountain's Corky Laing. Even Rush's Peart & Elvis' drummer used them so they don't necessarily automatically guarantee that the music's metal (in fact they were first used in jazz) but I'd say most metal bands use them, at least sometimes

[@lateramae]

@@wolf1977 Ah ok, it does say that Bill Ward and Neil Peart used double bass drums. You bring up a good point about double bass drums being a factor to heavy metal. When Scott Travis joined Judas Priest, his double kick drum gave the band a more aggressive sound.

[@marshfilm]

Let us also not forget that Triumph kicked the living shit out of every other band on that US Festival stage.

[@Nope2022HugeTheWarningFan]

Absolutely love this topic! Unfortunately no one brought up Alice Cooper, nor Blue Oyster Cult.

[@rogertemple7193]

Nazareth was another band that were a Hard Blues Rock band and a lot of their songs we're Heavy Metal such as Hair of the Dog and others then others were simply Hard Rock.

[@Ryan-F.Y.T.S2006]

This show probably should have started with a proto metal discussion, perhaps a show on all the best proto metal albums/bands is warranted.

[@wolf1977]

We already have that show & it's actually still running till then end on November, it's called "The 30 Most Important Albums In Hard Rock & Heavy Metal"

[@rogertemple7193]

April Wine was Hard Rock but weren't quite Heavy Metal but could nearly get to the level of being Heavy Metal but just barely.

[@grimtraveller7923]

Simple, overlooked fact: for there to have been a new wave of British heavy metal circa '79~80, there had to have been older heavy metal. Much of the output of Ted Nugent, Kiss, Van Halen, Rush, Aerosmith, AC/DC and some of the other bands mentioned were every bit as heavy as some of the NWOBHM and besides, were, in the 1970s, actively called heavy metal. Right now, right here on my bookshelf, I have books from 1976, '77, '79 that categorize all those bands and many more, as heavy metal rock bands. Robert Holland's 1982 biography of Ted Nugent describes him as a heavy metal guitarist ~ even though Ted saw himself as playing loud black music. I think a mistake that many make, is in not seeing the genre {and indeed, many other genres} as an evolution. Just because a stereotyped image and pose went on to define a genre, and just because many of those bands went on to be more extreme in sound than the earlier stuff, doesn't negate the heavy metal credentials of what came prior to the 80s. In the 1970s, I was clear about what was heavy metal and the bands playing it. I still am, and those bands haven't changed. The genre has just grown and splintered, like just about any genre of music. It's how music stays fresh.

[@chrisflood9205]

Great to see butch back ! Everyone did a great job though Chris alo looked a little sleepy .the new guy who talked about live evil had a lot of good points and I like when Sydney isn’t nervous she did too

[@geruto17760]

Lemmy might not have liked the label but, in my book, it was Motorhead who started Heavy Metal, together with Ozzy I'd say. At least those were the bands who came right up on top on Tommy Vance's Heavy Metal Show on BBC/BFBS radio in the 80s.

[@cameronsmith8328]

I usually see the guitar tone as the defining factor. If there’s a brightness to the tone, it’s generally hard rock not metal. Take WASP that was mentioned - they became metal on Headless Children with a much darker guitar tone. Iron Maiden’s Wasted Years is, in my opinion, a hard rock song due to that brighter tone.

[@wolf1977]

I think in large part when you talk about "lack of brightness" of the guitars you're referring to down-tuning (usually to "D"), among other things like production & choice of amps/effects. Also some use of 7 & 8-string guitars with their extra low string(s)

[@cameronsmith8328]

@@wolf1977 You could be right. I’m not a guitarist, I just love the way they sound.😊

[@angelomicciche3044]

Still to be found online is a BBC Arena documentary from 1989 on Heavy Metal. Sabbath are interviewed around a kitchen table, and when asked why thematically they referenced the dark side in their songs, Ozzy said “We’re Metal, Heavy Metal… not ‘Love grows where my Rosemary goes…’”.