The Illusion of Reality: Discovering a New Perspective with Rupert Spira and Bernardo Kastrup

[@Cl4rendon]

As Rupert loves to describe things so extensive, i really appreciate Bernardo`s metaphors in this with the cockpit instrumentation which is easy to grasp.

[@IAmSimonMundie]

Agreed, metaphor is so powerful.

[@IAmSimonMundie]

@@yok-fk5li That is a long way from what they are proposing.

[@iamhudsdent2759]

A fish swimming in the deep sea, does it know it swims in water? Knowing nothing else, it does not. Similarly, a human being, you, seeming to exist in the world, how do you know the reality in which you swim, but through sense perceptions? So, then, in what Reality do you truly swim absent mere perceptions? It has been said, we think we live in the world, but we live in the mind. The foundation of the mind, is awareness, being. It is in That, that all arises, all that is perceived. And it is That, only That, that we can truly say we are.

[@ferdinandocoluccelli9574]

I fully agree with such a vision. 😊

[@IAmSimonMundie]

beautiful

[@Boris29311]

I'm sitting on an elephant ( J.Bach.) wearing a vr-headset (D.Hoffman ) looking at the dashboard of a plane ( B.Kastrup ).😂😂😂

[@IAmSimonMundie]

🤣

[@alejandrosaez1772]

Perception of an objective world is an assumption that can't be verified

[@IAmSimonMundie]

@@alejandrosaez1772 but the simple fact that we perceive/ experience, we can be sure of

[@alejandrosaez1772]

@@IAmSimonMundie what's this "we" that perceives if it's not separate from the perception/experience

[@IAmSimonMundie]

@@alejandrosaez1772 fair point. So drop the 'we' and just stick to experiencing.

[@anneliseclark1541]

But why? Why do we exist and what is the purpose of us having this awareness?

[@IAmSimonMundie]

Rather than us having awareness, could it be we are aware presence, just as rather than having life, we are life? As for why - Donald Hoffman gives a nice take here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rniweoRtpdRpd6s&lc=UgwLYFSOrZoQb1rul3Z4AaABAg

[@1FREDARMSTRONG]

this is what i heard. the eyes, responding to a limited band (set of intervals) of the electromagnetic spectrum, allows for humans to experience a corresponding set of intervals that exist within our physical experience. the environment has allowed for a condition of self regulation potential thru the senses. we and our environment are then inter-woven entities, all existing as one "field". so, what we experience is the product of the limitations of our sense perception. REALITY. may be something completely beyond our ability to perceive. "lower life forms" may have no concept of a three dimensional space, due to the limits of their sensory capacities. but, non the less, they are constantly in the process of self regulation as their function and capacities require. we have no, or a limited sense of experience of what dimensions are beyond the three dimensional experience. to go that distance (to what we call "the divine") requires the ability transcend the strict visual experience of the three dimensional world, and become part of and extended set of frequencies/higher energies. that are a product or rooted in the human being being able to accept the root experience and see the unifying or coherency of the entire terrestrial field. both eastern and western religions or spiritual practices have attempted to establish constructs that allow for what happens as one transitions from the experience of the three dimension context to the resonances, vibrations of higher planes of experience or higher dimensions. we, living in the "modern" age, have in effect lost our roots of what it means to exist as an organism, in a one to one relationship with our environment, our experience is more about information than direct experience. in that sense, we have slowly become divorced from experience as the basis of understanding ourselves, to allowing the information modified world be the extent to which we "know the world" and ourselves, the self. can you put yourself in the context of having no modern means of survival. what a magnitude of anxiety there must have been. the spiritual practices that came about attempted to put in motion that which allowed for the greatest stability of experience, leading to higher forms of experience, salvation/heaven, nirvana, etc., an overcoming of the limits to physical existence.

[@gordong2457]

Wow, interesting stuff

[@Beyondthemindpodcast]

Bring Cindy teevens on, you won’t regret it ❤

[@derekreed6798]

Great conversation.

[@IAmSimonMundie]

Thank you

[@dorvito67]

So it's a stroke of luck reality is filtered otherwise we'll be soup 😮

[@skemsen]

I never understood this clame of Bernardos that “we would melt into a entropic/hot soup” if we could perceive reality as it really is. Here he adds “that’s thermodynamics for you”. What does that mean? Why would we melt into said hot soup? Because of radiation or what?? I hope someone can it explain it to me who understands very little of thermodynamics.

[@martinspiering5817]

Perception of distinct objects (like chairs and tables) means that order is imposed on incoming sensory information (starting with the pupil, which regulates how much light can enter the eye). With greater levels of disorder (i.e., with higher levels of entropy), say, created by a heat stroke or blunt trauma, objects lose their perceptual (and conceptual) boundaries and "dissolve." This is a physicalist account of what ultimately are only mental processes (language is tricky).

[@ferdinandocoluccelli9574]

"melting" is what happens when you forget your limited self and recognize that there is only Pure Consciousness, and you are That. 😊

[@skemsen]

@@ferdinandocoluccelli9574 - But so is that state said “hot soup”?

[@ferdinandocoluccelli9574]

@@skemsen Maybe it would be more serious calling it "Pure Consciousness". but I love the analogy of the soup! In the end, this is what really IS. including you, including me, including the world that seems to appear to you and me. It's all an amazing play. who is the player? 🙃

[@VittBiancoeNero-hx1jy]

In our biological body we are limited by the dashboard. Because of the body we cannot experience true reality. The dashboard is made to sustain our biological life. When we die we will be, if I understood Federico Faggin correctly, quantum as private information and classical physics for symbolic communication. There and then we will be able to see reality, hopefully, unless there are different levels to ,tackle, ‘battle through’. I sometimes think that possibly there are differ levels and that as one moves ‘on’ leaves others behind.... a bit like death here for who stays.

[@robinhood6954]

Everything is an illusion apart from money!

[@IAmSimonMundie]

🤣

[@ferdinandocoluccelli9574]

and maybe just the "cash"... 🙃

[@qpmkro]

So what does a camera capture ? Is that not "reality"?

[@AhmadHassan-op7ou]

Let's assume the camera takes the image of "unfiltered" Reality, but our senses looking at that image will change it back to what we would see in the first place. The problem is limited perceptual tools, making an image of Reality.

[@qpmkro]

no, doesnt work like that@@AhmadHassan-op7ou

[@mclarsen61]

the human mind made the camera so of course the camera shows what the human mind understands (thinks) is reality ... if it showed something other than what we see we would think there was something wrong with the camera 🤷📹

[@IAmSimonMundie]

Reality is what is fundamentally real about experience. The only thing we can definitively say - including about a camera picture - is that it is being experienced. That experiencing is consciousness. Sounds complicated I know - but there we go!

[@ferdinandocoluccelli9574]

but a subatomic microscope would not show the same image as the camera. our planet seen from space looks like a colored ball. what is the reality? try asking the question to a physicist...

[@parhamamini9219]

Excellent 👍

[@IAmSimonMundie]

Thankyou

[@GeertMeertens]

I'd like to see the whole interview with these nondualists. This bit is interesting but won't appeal to many people, I think, it needs context.

[@IAmSimonMundie]

I think this excerpt stands on its own well. Simply put - we don’t experience reality as it actually is. Most people don’t realise this, let alone consider its implications. Bernardo explains how our perceptions mislead us superbly. The implications will follow.

[@minimal3734]

@@IAmSimonMundie I believe that it is quite obvious to many people that what we experience as the world is our own creation based on the sensory data we receive. Various optical illusions prove this. I would be more interested in the question of how the idea of being a thing in a world of things can be disproved. Unfortunately, this has not been discussed.

[@IAmSimonMundie]

@@minimal3734 self-enquiry - which I discuss with Rupert in our interview on sport, flow and reality - is a powerful way to illustrate that what what people refer to as 'I' is not itself a thing

[@lettersquash]

@@IAmSimonMundie I agree with that, but I wonder if SimonM was referring to a more physical concept of the self. It is also fairly obvious that we are not absolutely bounded in space or time, since we are processes taking in nourishment, growing, decaying, etc., and with cosmic particles passing through our bodies all the time. Nevertheless, in a relative sense, there are objects in the world that are separate forms at any time. I think it would be impossible to deny this while claiming we have five senses, or that we're human beings, or that we live on a planet, or any other statement imaginable. But at least Kastrup appears to deny materialism, so is there too big a gap between our views to bridge? (I think materialism is much more parsimonious than idealism or dualism.)

[@IAmSimonMundie]

@@lettersquash I think materialism seems that way, until we take a closer look - at which point it seems absurd. A few things to consider: 1) The chances that we see things as they are in reality according to evolutionary game theory (evolution by natural selection) are zero. We experience reality through seeing, smelling, tasting, touching, hearing. It is not a coincidence that we have five sense organs. What if we had a 6th called X-ing? We would experience Z's, and assume that is how reality was. (our sense have deceived us before - sun round the earth/ flat earth being two examples) 2) The hard problem of consciousness. There is no explanation - even in theory - how the brain could create conscious experiences. Correlation, yes, but not causation. 3) What comes first - experiences or the experiencer? Clearly the latter. We couldn't have an experience without something first there to experience it. That is consciousness. We experience the sight and touch of a brain in consciousness - then assume that it is the brain that creates the experience/ consciousness. As Bernardo says - that's like pulling the map from the territory. 4) In experience (as opposed to belief) you cannot separate any experience from consciousness/ awareness. it is impossible. Therefore, why assume that they are two separate things. 5) Last year's nobel prize was awarded for disproving local realism - ie. things don't exist in space/time without a perceiver. 6) Space and time - according to quantum theory - are not fundamental. They are like a VR headset we wear. Just a few things to consider. :)

[@donaldwilson5693]

Just because our senses only show us part of reality, doesn't mean that part isn't real. Scientists are constantly discovering aspects of reality that we can't detect with our five senses.

[@donttellmethescore4341]

The chances that our senses shows us reality according to evolutionary game theory (evolution by natural selection, aka science) - is zero.

[@donaldwilson5693]

Our senses only show us parts of reality and evolutionary game theory is just that - a theory.@@donttellmethescore4341

[@ferdinandocoluccelli9574]

it is not a "part of reality", it is an "imagined reality" like a mirage. the mirage is real in itself, as an optical effect, but it is not "true": there is no water down there. 😊

[@donaldwilson5693]

Go down to the train tracks and when you see a train coming, stand on the tracks in front of it. Write back later and tell me about the mirage and how it was just an illusion.@@ferdinandocoluccelli9574

[@kennethandersen7677]

Link to full podcast ?

[@frankrunge7]

Something wrong with the heart?

[@frankrunge7]

Why do I have to close my eyes to listen?

[@Stegosaurus12345]

The nondualists seem like lovely people but I can't understand how they make the leap from "reality is not what our senses tell us it is" to "there is only consciousness."

[@derekreed6798]

That is why you're not nondualistic😂

[@IAmSimonMundie]

I totally understand it can seem a leap, although once the leap is made, it is materialism that is so clearly absurd. A few things to consider. 1) The chances that we see things as they are in reality according to evolutionary game theory (evolution by natural selection) are zero. We experience reality through seeing, smelling, tasting, touching, hearing. It is not a coincidence that we have five sense organs. What if we had a 6th called X-ing? We would experience Z's, and assume that is how reality was. (our sense have deceived us before - sun round the earth/ flat earth being two examples) 2) The hard problem of consciousness. There is no explanation - even in theory - how the brain could create conscious experiences. Correlation, yes, but not causation. 3) What comes first - experiences or the experiencer? Clearly the latter. We couldn't have an experience without something first there to experience it. That is consciousness. We experience the sight and touch of a brain in consciousness - then assume that it is the brain that creates the experience/ consciousness. As Bernardo says - that's like pulling the map from the territory. 4) In experience (as opposed to belief) you cannot separate any experience from consciousness/ awareness. it is impossible. Therefore, why assume that they are two separate things. 5) Last year's nobel prize was awarded for disproving local realism - ie. things don't exist in space/time without a perceiver. 6) Space and time - according to quantum theory - are not fundamental. They are like a VR headset we wear. Just a few things to consider. :)

[@pennywise5095]

❤​@@IAmSimonMundieLet me communicate with consciessness wich is not located in a brain or even human for that matter just 1 example of it not bound to a body just 1 can you do that or have an example?

[@donttellmethescore4341]

I think we have a different view of what consciousness is. But I totally respect your view, and don’t claim to be ‘right’. With respect 😊🙏

[@pennywise5095]

@@donttellmethescore4341 so there is no example of anything with consciousness without a body? I have no view i am just asking because people claim otherwise