The Illusionist: A Treantmonk Guide Part 1 of 3

[@Debatra.]

3:27 If you're playing at a table like that, get out of there. "No D&D is better than bad D&D."

[@JonathanMandrake]

I was confused for a few seconds because I interpreted it as No way of playing D&D is better than bad D&D instead of Playing no D&D is better than playing bad D&D xD

[@SharanjitPaddam]

Build Choice Summary 1: Kenku, Acrobatics, Deception. Rogue 1, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Investigation. 8/14/13/15/10/12. Charlatan Arcana, Athletics. Rapier, Short bow, Leather (upgrade to studded). 2: Wizard 1, Minor Illusion, Booming Blade, Mage Hand, Find Familiar, Shield*, Fog Cloud*, Disguise Self, Grease*, Absorb Elements. 3: Wizard 2, Illusionist. (Minor Illusion), Message, Unseen Servant, Detect Magic. Disguise Self*. 4: Wizard 3, Dark vision*, Mirror Image*. (Disguise Self*)

[@PuzzledPsychic]

Thank you!

[@kethos017]

Illusions: the weakest spells or the most powerfull... GM's choice

[@ben5056]

I wish illusion rules were better defined. This would resolve the DM dependency more. DMs should remember that illusions go both ways, trick your players as much as they trick your monsters for more fun :)

[@TreantmonksTemple]

It's much easier to use illusions as a DM, as you don't need to tell the players what you've described their characters having seen is an illusion

[@SpidermanandhisAmazingFriends]

Treantmonk really makes m appreciate my DM. Bad guys even get distracted by the cleric's spiritual weapon at times if he thinks they aren't experienced with that sort of magic.

[@Mr911superstar]

I must say, I love how you upload your videos, broken up into parts for consumption but still uploaded all together

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thank you! It was a viewer suggestion.

[@gusinwv]

Hi! I actually played 18 illusion wizard and 2 rogue in our last 1-20 campaign. Over the course of 3 years, i became an invicible god. Amazing build, dont hate on the illusion subclass

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Welcome to my Illusionist guide! In this video I am going to explain how I would make a Rogue-style character that uses spells, like an Arcane Trickster, except I'm going to be much better at using spells, especially illusions without sacrificing my skills. If I was going to play a Rogue-type character, I would choose this over a straight Rogue no question. For Part 2 of this build: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fp7Ffpier9SrhKc For Part 3 of this build: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZXFZ3ytitKgd5Y Here's the link to the final build: ddb.ac/characters/17119660/gwcr8y

[@LordMorin]

This is pretty much the build I was going with before I discovered my DM-to-be hated illusions. I'd built 2 characters before that and due to his newbie DM nature, he denied me basic features of my class. My lst character was a Forest GnomeIllusionist which he ok'd 3 times. Then I made the mistake of explaining how I was going to use going to use my illusions. It horrified him to the point he started house-ruling illusions to the point they were almost unusable (ie. Illusions had to be cast before combat started, etc.). In the end I just dropped out of that group altother.

[@LordMorin]

@@pasp9866 I've played, or attempted to play anyways, in many games in my 30+ years of D&D'ing. I can count on one hand, that I can remember, how many times I've walked away from a game.

[@LordMorin]

​@@pasp9866 All people I knew I knew. The DM was someone I had ran many times in my campaigns. Given the issues I had just creating a character for his proposed campaign, ZI knew I would not enjoy myself.

[@thisnewshitsucks]

Just started getting into the game and I watched a bunch of your videos! You are very helpful, underrated channel for sure.

[@lyracian]

Illusions are fun! Going to enjoy this one. Thank you.

[@muddlewait8844]

Love use of the kenku. Using “weird” races with unusual powers rubs some GMs the wrong way (e.g. aarakocra), but who could have a problem with a kenku trickster?

[@ArchdruidBramimond]

So here I am planning a Kenku wizard multiclass build, noodling over different options, and not only do I find out the illustrious Treantmonk has a KZbin channel, but that he's made a build for the exact character I wanted to play! Imagine my surprise! I think the only thing different about the build I've been considering is that I'm sorely tempted, despite how non-optimal it is, to take a level in Knowledge Domain Cleric to pick up Arcana expertise and some cleric goodies in addition to the level of Rogue. Your Diviner video points out how much of a good idea this is, though obviously not doing both at the same time. But I've been trying to decide between playing an Illusionist or a Diviner anyway. My thought was that Knowledge Domain would give me two other skills, letting me pick up some other skills as well with my class skills. But I have the sneaking suspicion that that isn't worth delaying wizard casting by two levels, even if I pick up some handy skills like Insight, or History through the Domain, along with cleric stuff. I guess this is a long winded way to say that your videos have given me a lot to think about! Thanks for your hard work!

[@elizabethgemmell7635]

I played a kenku scribe wizard/life cleric multi class a while back and ended up sunsetting that character because she was so broken😅

[@AsheandCinders]

Been trying to work on a variant to this, Half Elf Warlock 2/Wizard 18. Half Elf specifically for the extra skills and the Charisma Bonus. The subclass isn't important, So I'd say Archfey or Great Old One if you were feeling flavourful, Hexblade If you want armour proficiencies. The important part is that a 2 level dip in warlock gives you access to Invocations. The two of most note are Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions, as these give at will castings on Disguise self and Silent Image respectively, giving you the two most useful 1st circle illusions at will and freeing up your first circle pick for spell mastery, at the cost of a slightly lower DC unless you heavily invest ASIs into it at the cost of feats. My only issue with it is I can't figure out the best place to take the second level of warlock. Taking warlock 2 straight away is powerful, but delays your wizard spellcasting and class abilities a lot. But taking even a single level of wizard before warlock 2 means either playing an illusionist without silent image or disguise self, or having 2 wasted choices for your spells on levelup. You also have to decide if you want Minor Illusion earlier and to use the warlock DC, or hold out and take it with the wizard DC. Any Advice on the proper breakpoints for the second warlock level is appreciated!

[@KINFIN123]

The fact that this basically amounts to an arcane ninja is pretty exciting.

[@migueldelmazo5244]

Making Mondays better... Thanks Chris.

[@odedsayar4345]

There's an improv game where one of the actors picks up a book, usually a famous play, and can only read lines from it as his dialogue. So it could be adopted into playing Kenku, say a theatre fan, who imitates lines from plays/musicals with all the added drama :p

[@TreantmonksTemple]

That's fantastic. Kenku offer some very interesting roleplay options, but I think you need to be creative.

[@acm4bass]

I guarantee that the resistant dm's are uncomfortable dealing with illusions, have players that stretch or don't understand the spells, and worry that the wizard preempting an encounter is less fun for the table as a whole. I disagree completely with this subset of dm's. However as a DM and Player I have seen these issues.

[@Byssbod]

The internet is full of people that think a cantrip lets them play a movie with sound over a 20 ft space. But little do they know only illusionists can play a sound and place a static image at the same time with a cantrip. And only in a 5ft space.

[@ChristianW1975]

In my opinion, the illusionist is one of the most powerful wizard subclasses, once illusory reality kicks in.

[@Vernoan3]

Illusion isn’t quite mind magic. Enchantment is. Illusion is sorta real. That’s why you can ride your Phantom Steed, and why your Illusory Dragon’s acid breath deals actual acid damage. The light and sounds you’re making are real, or close to it. That’s what separates illusion from enchantment. You know, except Phantasmal Force.

[@ER-pm5es]

2 levels of hexblade and something like a yuan ti would be excellent too. Medium armor, silent image and disguise self for invocations and hex warrior for booming blade.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I agree, that would be an interesting take. It wouldn't be a skill expert though.

[@valentinrafael9201]

If you are a dm and you kill fun, maybe you should go play solitaire and think of your life decisions. Also seek therapy. Great series btw!❤

[@blturn]

I've been waiting for this!!

[@irian42]

Do you have an opinion on using Changeling instead of Kenku for this build? It seems a changeling would have very similar advantages if only +1 Dex or Int...

[@TreantmonksTemple]

If I was playing Eberron, yes, I would consider changeling. There is similarity for sure with the Kenku. Not being able to reach Dex 16 at level 1 I would consider pretty equal to not reaching Int 16

[@irian42]

@@TreantmonksTemple Thanks, so I probably should go for 8, 14, 13, 15+1, 10, 12+2 then with a Changeling?

[@howzany6832]

Could you do a race guide to Changeling Wizards? Or Gnome Wizards? Those two are what I'm super interested in.

[@demonderpz7937]

Food for thought: ventriloquism is just a performance check if your dm is cool with it

[@hatenull]

I personally would have added Ebberon content and used the changeling, which would have physically embodied the deceptive nature of an illusionist. But that is my opinion, I'm not a fan of kenku.

[@jakobekdahl3093]

I've been waiting with baited breath for this one :D

[@cl10367]

You mean bated breath

[@jakobekdahl3093]

cl10367 🤷‍♂️

[@j.troydoe1278]

I am playing a Owlin Illusonist, Small in size makes hiding easy.

[@shanebergman5801]

I've created a spy bard, I think the flavor is cool. He focused on illusions for infiltration. Is there an alternative illusionist build for bards?

[@FelineElaj]

Dang, not the first, lol. Anyway, glad to see another video, as always.

[@ninjaturtlethug7]

I’m playing a build inspired by this, first session next week

[@SpySappingMyKeyboard]

I still say it's heresy to play an illusionist and not be a gnome.

[@Christian_Bagger]

Had a DM that would always know, where I would be when I was invisible.

[@jonathanmorphew6786]

@Treantmonk's Temple question for ya I'm doing an illusionist mage who dips into starting hex warlock. Would going 3 lvls instead of two for the voice of chain invo be a bad idea overall? I'm making a changeling so personally in love with having an invis familiar I can speak through with whatever voice I want. Just not sure if its pros outweighs the cons

[@AITries]

Kinda disappointed you didn't do a pure mage illusionist, that's what I'm running in my campaign and I can't find one good guide online...I also kinda can't believe he hasn't died yet lol

[@steeplewiththesnakes]

I think this is a really cool build but yeah it's a different fantasy for sure than a pure illusion wizard.

[@air139]

what would be sacrificed to get the advanced mage hand from AT?

[@leodouskyron5671]

The build is good but yeah illusions can be problematic. I totally agree that you have to make sure you and your DM agree to some simple rules of the road that you and the DM can agree to. A lot of DMs and players may want most then allow them or not. Or have an understanding of what the minimum required is to have Illusionists. IMHO, the minimum is : 1) Everyone/thing that can be effected will believe what they see/sense first time unless something is off. In short the PC will add to the scene with illusions that fit or they MAY fail but generally if used with care they work. (Example a Wolf pack can see but go with smell things better then a human and a human making meat may be make a good looking meat but the doggie gets a save if the player does not say they are making the meat smell like meat or the spell can’t do it) 2) Once fooled everyone will try to not get fooled for a period of 2-4 hours checking for things to be real even if they don’t know who did either illusion. (This means NPCs may move differently or take time to see if things are real but not just say every illusion is an illusion because the DM can meta game it so. Also, one illusionist can ruin it for another and PC and DM can use this while keeping immersion) 3) if you are determined to be the cause of the illusion even once people affected negatively by your illusions start checking if they see you ever afterwards. (And you as a PC know this!) 4) passive perception and passive investigation always apply to PC and major characters with spells up to level 4 and passive investigation ALWAYS will apply for believing or not in illusion (note some spells it will not help but the DM will review spells as they are gained with you. Again this is a balance thing given for DMs that want to have a balance for the power of Illusions- not required at all of you like illusions) 5) “The rule of cool” requires advantage or a inspiration to be used with any illusion 6) Feats such as Keen Mind and Observant will grain advantage against illusions or grant saves as needed (This is meant to help balance things for the real power players have as an illusionist also other PCs may feel more comfortable about this themselves) 7) All illusion spells will be treated as RAW as possible. These basic rules of the road I think will go far with DMs as many that hate illusions Either want a more tactical war game in combat, fear a Monty Hall approach to Illusions or don’t have a good system to deal with illusion. If the DM can’t meat you this far they yeah ... be another character type because this really is the minimum In my experience. Love to have anyone post what their minimum to have Illusionist in the game is.

[@xthebumpx]

For 2-3 that's why you mimic spell effects like walls or grease etc. and occasionally mix in the real thing.

[@rayquaza5059]

It’s kind of a shame, because I really like Magical Ambush on Arcane Trickster, but it’s such a heavy investment into Rogue when I want to use higher level spells to actually combo it with.

[@jand.4737]

Kenku are a very DM dependant decision. They can't talk, just use mimicry. Thus spellcasting doesn't make sense for them because you likely don't know the verbal components of your spells without someone else casting the spell in your presence which means that you can't mimicry them to cast them.

[@Oznerock]

Or maybe the vocal components could be noises objects (or the spell) makes mimicked, or something like that. RAW, They just have to be able to use their mouths, not speak a language

[@TreantmonksTemple]

5e doesn't specify what the verbal component is, only that there is one. I generally assume it is up to the player to come up with their own verbal component, which may be different than the verbal component for other casters casting the same spell. For a Kenku I would envision some unique verbal components. Maybe the verbal component for the shield spell is the sound of an arrow thunking into a wooden shield for example - I think this gives some interesting roleplaying opportunities.

[@jand.4737]

@@Oznerock A) that still is something the DM has to agree to B) the problem is, if any sound is sufficient for spellcasting, why do Druids need a level 18 feature to cast spells while wildshaping. C) The PHB says that a very specific pitch and intonation is required for each spell, rather than the words themselves, there is no way that Kenku can come up and find it on their own, because they are cursed with a complete lack of creativity.

[@xthebumpx]

There are plenty of ways to rationalize a Kenku casting spells. The rules don't say they can't. The only question is whether the DM wants to be a jerk and ruin a cool character concept.

[@M0ebius]

Rather than assuming that WotC printed a race that can’t cast verbal spells, and given that nothing in the rules directly say they can’t, I would assume that a Kenku PC can in fact cast whatever spells he chose and work out the how and the why with the DM (if he even cares).

[@chrislieu6757]

If the kenku race choice is being driven by forgery/mimicry, then is the Kenku forgery/mimicry ability much better than Keen Mind? Kenku has always seemed like a roleplay choice to me. A particularly annoying roleplay chocie.

[@Arkygi]

Would this be good with a Lightfoot Halfling?

[@minivergur]

Don't kenku get in to trouble learning new spells with vocal components 🤔

[@TreantmonksTemple]

There's certainly nothing in the rules suggesting that, but you are the second comment I've read asking that. If the intent of the designers was that Kenku would be unable to cast most of the spells in the game, then not specifically laying that out in the rules is an unbelievable oversight.

[@davidpowell9376]

Are you planning on talking about the Artificer when Eberron comes out in November?

[@Wesmin]

I'm confused as to why this is in the Wizard guide instead of a rogue guide when he spent the first 2 minutes talking about rogue before saying he was going to mix some illusionist into his rogue build. :(

[@quonomonna8126]

dare me to try an illusionist at adventure league

[@Vogue69]

Since Kenku are total void of inovation, creativity and developing ideas wouldn't it be counter productive to an illusionist? Since you probably can only Form illusions of stuff you have seen. (same as their ability to speak)

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Kenku being stereotypically uncreative I don't think was ever intended to be a crippling racial feature that prohibited all creativity.

[@ryancparker]

If you're playing at an anti illusion table that doesn't even require an investigation check leave the table

[@BabooninCargos]

Tfw I made this exact build (but w/ kobold) and rolled stats to get great INT from lvl 1 *victory dance*

[@lukecarroll4052]

Just remember how easy it is to die as a wizard

[@BabooninCargos]

I've gotten really lucky with HP rolls and staying out of combat. I'm currently at Rogue 1/Wiz 6 and I've dropped below half maybe twice, and never to 0.

[@sesimie]

use your illusion!!

[@pvrhye]

Just can't bring myself to play a Kenku because the roleplay would be misery to do it justice.

[@pvrhye]

@@gamecavalier3230 good idea

[@tomraineofmagigor3499]

I have my players do a deception, performance, or intimidation check depending on the purpose of the illusion to say how well they crafted it

[@TreantmonksTemple]

That's an excellent idea

[@EdBurke37]

I am engaging with this content

[@magnuspendragon1938]

Necromancer next and pls make a variant for it

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I will make a variant, for the order of the wizard builds, check my wizard build preview vid

[@Porphyrogenitus1]

You might think this kenku Arcane Trickster is unheard of, but the fact is that everyone has heard about... kzbin.info/www/bejne/b3jGZYSKptifhJY

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Just watched, but I missed whether they said what the "word" was?

[@Porphyrogenitus1]

@@TreantmonksTemple Oh it's noted right here: twitter.com/CampbellxEmma/status/1178061498301767682

[@konstantinospetrakis2418]

If the DM is anti-illusion find a different DM.

[@archmagemc3561]

BTW, for the Kenku, you can just pay a civillian like 20g and have them read a dictionary to you. Bam, you've stolen their voice.

[@CyclopsWasRight]

Yeah, uncreative DM's are no fun. They say no illusion and I'm out. Honestly never had that happen, but as a huge Beguiler fan, I wouldn't even entertain the idea. Great build!

[@michaelmorey3110]

I really can't see Kenku as a good race because of their curse...Second, because their ingenuity and skill had turned toward scheming against their patron, the spark of creativity was torn from their souls..." doesn't seem to mesh well with illusions, which really require creativity.

[@Adurnis]

Usually if it’s possible a smart NPC might pick up that you’re casting an illusion, I have the player roll Sleight of Hand against the sharp NPC’s passive perception. Even if they fail, the NPC needs to make an Intelligence check based on prior knowledge about the PC and illusion magic in general to be able to put two and two together. That feels pretty realistic and fair.

[@M0ebius]

What would be the most fair is if you play according to the rules as written. If the spell says an action for an Investigation check is required to discern the illusion, the NPC spends an action to roll an Investigation check.

[@Adurnis]

In most cases, I’d do that. This is if a) it might be particularly obvious a spell is being cast or b) if I think a monster is particularly savvy to these kinds of tricks. This is one of those situations where I think a DM should adapt to the situation.

[@Adurnis]

Savvy players might be able to deduce an illusion is being cast without making the investigation check. It’d be churlish not to offer NPCs the same chance. Of course, as a DM, I have some meta knowledge, and it would be unfair for me to just SAY an NPC figures it out; so why not let the dice say? They still would need the full Investigation check to be able to see through the illusion, of course.

[@M0ebius]

Adurnis If it works for your table, I have no problem with it at all. But the DM doesn’t just have SOME meta knowledge, he has ALL the meta knowledge. And if the savvy player figures out the illusion, is the table okay with him just blatantly ignoring the illusion effect and openly metagame? If the answer is yes, then sure, it might be fair for you to run it that way.

[@isultansultangaliev5852]

Adurnis they can't identify what spell is being cast unless they use their reaction at the time of the casting to make an arcana check. Even if the NPC has that spell too, each caster's process is different enough.

[@ben5056]

For maximum Kenku hilarity, say he gained his vocabulary in a brothel

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Blackmail the local Watch Commander! We noticed you somewhere you shouldn't have been last night. How would your spouse like to hear this....

[@ben5056]

Treantmonk's Temple oh boy the mimicking could get spicy. That commander is in trouble.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@ben5056 You wanted to do WHAT with a spatula???

[@ben5056]

Treantmonk's Temple hahaha

[@AtholIronworks]

Wahoo!!!!!!

[@michaelpetrovich2959]

Wizard guide to illusion: rogue. 👎