The Illusionist: A Treantmonk Guide Part 3 of 3

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Welcome to part 3 of my Illusionist guide! If you haven't watched part 1 or 2 yet, you will want to watch them first, the links are down below. In this video I am going to explain how I would make a Rogue-style character that uses spells, like an Arcane Trickster, except I'm going to be much better at using spells, especially illusions without sacrificing my skills. If I was going to play a Rogue-type character, I would choose this over a straight Rogue no question. For Part 1 of this build: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nIHSYY2slNh8jZY For Part 2 of this build: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fp7Ffpier9SrhKc Here's the link to the final build: ddb.ac/characters/17119660/gwcr8y

[@jakubguziur7522]

Eldritch Adept feat is a must for this build: take Misty Visions and have infinite walls to make real. This way you have this combo at level 15 (for this build, 14 for full wizard), not as a capstone.

[@muddlewait8844]

That chest/ship model is a *terrific* way to talk about the problem of target areas.

[@ChristnThms]

I know... old topic, new reply. But I think this is relevant and worth contributing to the perspective. All location terminology is relative. When we say north, we're comparing that to the other known compass points. When we say "in" we're comparing to "out". Thus, we know how the target location exists by how the location is described. "In the box" is relative to the box, and nothing else. When the box moves, so does the "in". Same with "on the deck of the ship". If your a DM and your players tend to use imprecise language, you can use an NPC illusionist making a mistake as a teaching moment.

[@dennisbest4740]

Programmed Illusion specifically states "You create an illusion of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon within range that activates when a specific condition occurs." So whatever illusion you create, it MUST appear within the range of the spell when it was cast. It also states specifically that the triggering condition must "occur within 30 feet of the area" (quite clearly referring to area of effect). So if I used the opening of a chest as the trigger, and moved the chest more than 30 feet from the AOE established when casting the spell, the trigger will no longer function. And even if it did, the illusion would appear in the AOE designated when casting the spell (not within 30 feet of the trigger). RAW, the location of the illusion itself has no relationship to the location of the trigger, and moving the trigger more than 30 feet from that area will nullify it. Any other interpretation is HomeBrew. With respect to relativity and a point in space; it simplifies things greatly if you relate your point in space to the gravity plane (see Spell Jammer). So the area would NOT move with the ship as it sails on the sea (using the Earth's gravity plane), but WOULD move with a Ship in space, ....until the ship entered the gravity plane of another planet.

[@SharanjitPaddam]

Build Summary: 11: Wizard 10, Green Flame Blade, Rary’s Telepathic Bond, Bigby’s Hand*, Fog Cloud(*), Silent Image* 13: Wizard 12, ASI Int x2, Contingency, Programmed Illusion, Mass Suggestion, Eyebite. [Preps?] 15: Wizard 14, Mirage Arcana*, Simulacrum, Teleport*, Reverse Gravity*, Polymorph(*) 17: Wizard 16, ASI Int x2, Illusory Dragon*, Maze*, Demi plane*, Mind Blank 18: Wizard 17, Wish*, True Polymorph 19: Rogue 2 20: WIzard 18, Spell Mastery: Misty Step, Silent Image. [Spells?, Preps?]

[@valentinrafael9201]

As per JC, Mirage Arcane would affecr creatures if you made lava or a crevasse

[@johngleeman8347]

I've had the displeasure of having to cope with with a few referees that hated illusion spells. More's the pity, because illusions are one of the most iconic types of magic, not just in D&D, but all forms of media, and they are the backbone of stage magic too. I lament 5th edition putting the kibosh on sneak attack with spells that require an attack roll. A rogue mixed with a warlock would let you get blast and sneak and be quite good at being the face too. :/

[@M0ebius]

Playing a Hexblade Arcane Trickster right now and it is pretty strong. Sneak Attack + Booming Blade + Hex means you rival straight martial rogues in damage while soft-locking your target. From range you can Cunning Action Hide then Hex + Eldritch Blast with advantage, or Cunning Action Disengage, step back and EB/Repelling Blast for some light control. And since you are maxing Charisma, once you get the AT Magical Ambush feature you can transition straight into Sorcerer/Bard and cast every spell with disadvantage to target’s save.

[@Ciberbuster]

Mirage Arcana is one of my favorite spells since 3rd edition, lovely build.

[@acm4bass]

So Pro tip for Illusions: You know they are illusions, so you can see through them. Unlike Fog cloud mentioned in a previous video you can break line of sight and gain advantage with a spell like silent image, until they interact with the illusion or see somebody else do it. So if you use terrain to make interaction less likely that would be good.

[@RavenWolfStarcraft2]

I tell my DM, "Magic is convenient". He's kinda hyper anti-rules lawyer (while I prefer more strict rules) so we can sometimes be at odds. I, of course, accept his rulings even though they bother me sometimes. I think of this line when you started talking about if it's in a chest or on a point in space rotating around the world. It's just convenient. In other news, that example on malleable illusions is really nice, I never noticed it said object and bridge in the same statement. Now I know a but more about what Minor Conjuration can do. Summon a 3 food bridge of death? Heck yes.

[@matthewzoellner5004]

My first DnD game, I was excited to play an illusionist-type character. But the DM was extremely hostile to illusions, all NPCs and enemies immediately assumed whatever they were dealing with was an illusion and thus useless. Whether Minor Illusion or Major Image, same treatment. Now I'm really sour on the idea. I rarely get the chance to play instead of DM, but I hope some time in my life I can play this kind of character.

[@cl10367]

Frankly the 2nd level and 10th level abilities are not fantastic. The 6th level spell can be very good depending on interpretation. The 14th kennel ability breaks the game depending on interpretation. All wizards have access to all but one illusion spell. No other class can say that about any other school of magic.

[@binolombardi]

You ever hear of any DMs that basically neuter illusion magic for PCs and give it to the enemies?

[@timothybrahm9001]

Illusionist with infinite silent image: "You're in a box, you're in a box, everybody's in a boooooooooooooox!"

[@AsheandCinders]

@@sharkforce8147 Illusory Reality makes one object from an illusion real for one minute, meaning that object no longer requires concentration to maintain since it's real. A high level Illusionist with Silent Image as a Spell Mastery can put a person in a very real box that lasts 10 rounds every single round.

[@AsheandCinders]

@@sharkforce8147 The Rules say the Object is real for one minute. It does not say that it is real, dependant on the illusion continuing. Sage Advice from August 2nd 2017 even states that the object it creates is seperate from any duration of a spell. This is because it is real, and therefore no longer part of the illusion. The objects does explicitely cease to be a part of the illusion, as the object is real, and illusions are not real. If it was dependant on concentration, the passage would say "The object remains real for one minute, or until the illusion spell ends" not "the objects remains real for one minute". The fact it cannot acctually damage anyone can quite simply be put down to "Magic". So, in short, it very much is a situation where you definitely for sure explicitely do not need the illusion to continue to exist for the object to continue to exist, as per Sage Advice August 2nd 2017 and the rules as written in the book.

[@AsheandCinders]

@@sharkforce8147 in all other cases where an effect is dependant on the continuation of the spell, it is defined as such. The wording of the ability is clear, it is real for one minute. You are free to homebrew it to function differently as is anyone else. But the rules give a clear duration and your opinion of those rules doesn't change that.

[@conradkorbol]

@@sharkforce8147 well the rules were written in exception based ruling. That means with the absence of saying it’s concentration then it’s no longer concentration. That’s the way the rules are meant to be read. That’s what safe advice is for. It’s for explaining intention and that the rules are exception based. I am not saying you are totally wrong as your table can place however you want, but you are mostly wrong.

[@FrumpybutSuperSmart]

One of my favorites is using Silent Image to create a sphere of darkness that I and my allies can see through.

[@valentinrafael9201]

One way to use reverse gravity: Remove any ceiling and/or objects the enemies can cling onto ( can do that with mirage arcane for example, or create illusions of things they could cling on ) and then you send them flying

[@MateusNBueno]

It worths to remember that with Wish we can cast Mirage Arcane with one action only!

[@ChristnThms]

Well laid out. I love the idea of leaning heavily on illusion and trickery. I've always looked at the WL for this. If I get a chance to, maybe an illusionist would be fun too.

[@binolombardi]

Mirage arcane. Doesn’t olfactory just include smell? Seems like it covers everything except for taste??

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Yes, I have since been informed that tactile sense is not olfactory sense. Don't know why I didn't know that, but TIL

[@mateofantasma]

This build is really creative and cool! the best one so far.

[@anthonynorman7545]

If you fly up, you could see the full square mile. That's extra good for making the area around your lair...er umm...home base special and uninviting.

[@TenebrousFilms]

The biggest advantage I see with this build is having the persistent invisibility way before level 19, but I think I'd miss Magical Ambush too much. As a melee AT, I'm considering multiclassing Blade Singer and using it like the wierding modules in the old Dune movie.

[@M0ebius]

My solution is Hexblade 2 AT 9 then transition into Bard/Sorc for Magical Ambush paired with max casting stats without giving up any combat prowess. In fact that is the build I am playing currently, using dual mode Booming Blade + Sneak Attack and Cunning Action + Eldritch Blast when I need to fight, hanging back and landing debuffs when I need to control.

[@goatmeal5241]

Sorry, Mirage-Arcane guy again. How does one make a rock-strewn gully "feel" like a wide and smooth road without changing the real forces/collision physics of the objects? If a pond "seems" like a grassy meadow, I think the intent is that you can walk across it. Similarly, how can something "feel" like a crevasse, unless your hand can pass through an area there used to be material? Thus, I think the spell actually changes the tangibility of objects; it just can't make preexisting buildings or creatures INtangible (i.e. "not there" in the illusion). This makes it effectively a more powerful version of illusory reality that non-illusionists can use, but it's a long casting time, and a high level spell slot.

[@Spritesuit]

An important spell for a Kenku in general is "fly," as all members of the species have a dream to regain flight. It also helps circumvent the "you can see" limitation of Mirage Arcana, for some practical value.

[@anthonynorman7545]

Gotta get fly as a Kenku! It's a their idea of nirvana.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

In retrospect, yeah, any Kenku would take fly for sure.

[@ChristianW1975]

Illusory reality makes the illusionist one of the strongest wizard subclasses from level 14 and up

[@EdBurke37]

Oh Great Algorithm I do once more Engage with this Content

[@Zedacuequinha]

I wonder what would happen in the case you cast mirage arcane and make a lake look like a solid floor. People in the illusion would Walk as there was no lake, but since there is a lake, it would end up dying without noting the lack of oxygen, i assume

[@mrav8r]

These videos are so great Chris! Have you ever considered multclassing between gloomstalker ranger and sorcerer instead of rogue?

[@acm4bass]

You would need the location of the spell to not be anything like the world, ship, cart becasue once the illusion interacts with the environment it becomes translucent/ detected.

[@theonlymatthew.l]

Would you take a second level of Rogue with this build in a campaign that ended before level 20? If you were to take a 2nd level of Rogue in a tier 2 or a tier 3 version of this character where would you take it?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I would take it as the last level, if at all. (Depends if that last level got me higher level spells)

[@cmckee42]

With mirage arcana, you may be able to cast it in front of a dungeon and while you can't initially make changes inside the dungeon, you should be able to make changes when you enter a given room.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

The area of effect is determined at the time of casting and you can't move it.

[@cmckee42]

@@TreantmonksTemple but the area I'd effect is a mile square, so it could include the whole dungeon, assuming it isn't a megadungeon. Nothing in the spell says you have to see the full area. I'm pretty sure you just need to see the point of origin of the effect. That is how most spells work.

[@demonderpz7937]

I find it odd that Illusory dragon is a Wizard spell, and not available to shadow sorcerer :(

[@videogamefreered]

Love these videos! Earned my sub! When you get the chance, could you possibly do a college of swords Bard? I’ve been really intrigued to play as one but it’s a tricky subclass

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Already have! Check out my "Jack of all Trades" build, which is Hexblade 3/College of Swords 17

[@videogamefreered]

@@TreantmonksTemple Awesome! Thanks so much man! Keep up the great videos!

[@migueldelmazo5244]

Can I make a illusionary marionette into a real boy for 1 minute? That should be enough time for him to understand to impermanence of life. LE illusionist party tricks. Yes, I know that it doesn't work that way, but I am just in a dark mood. :)

[@LoiteringLich]

Jeremy Crawford has also confirmed that major image cannot leave its spell range from it’s designated point, meaning you can’t have a major image traveling with you forever. Also mirage arcane does state it includes tactile elements.

[@cl10367]

Do you have a cite for that?

[@LoiteringLich]

cl10367 afraid you’ll have to dig for yourself but it’s been a sage advice.

[@nicholasbennett1318]

Crawford confirmed no such thing, I’ve search sage advice and twitter, no ruling to that effect.

[@LoiteringLich]

@@nicholasbennett1318 found it again within 4 searches. Try harder next time. mobile.twitter. com/jeremyecrawford/status/944013851925737472

[@nicholasbennett1318]

Crawford said “Malleable Illusions lets you change how an illusion looks, sounds, etc. (whatever is appropriate for the illusion). The feature doesn't give you the ability to move an illusion somewhere else”

[@RobertBarry1969]

Did I miss 2 spells? After Wish and True Polymorph at Wizard 18, you then went on to Wizard 19 but didn't select 2 more spells.

[@jackfox5664]

That's because the character's 19th level was in Rogue.

[@maesterx4d]

I’m surprised you didn’t devote more time to simulacrum considering it’s an illusion spell. With it being malleable, you can change your simulacrum on the fly. The touch range would be the only limit, but even so being able to change your simulacrum to suddenly be a copy of your tanky fighter friend or Paladin with fun auras cause you need another tank for the upcoming fight, then touch to change it again back into your casting self when you need more spells over melee etc....

[@tambarlas5248]

Since the spell description says "...duplicate one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time (12 hours)", I'd rule you can only use Malleable Illusions to change it into any beast/humanoid that was within range (touch) at the time of casting - as that is the spell's normal parameters.

[@skullkrusher-dx4kg]

This man made souske aizen.

[@pawz212]

if, hypothetically, the campaign does not reach lvl 20, and just reach around beginning tier 3 or so do you think its still more worth to only have 1 rogue level , or is the cunning action worth grabbing a 2nd rogue level sooner?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

What I will say is that if I go 2 rogue, I might as well go 3 and grab Arcane Trickster

[@pawz212]

@@TreantmonksTemple Ah. And then the rest Wizard?

[@keeganmbg6999]

As a note Chris, great video! However, you failed to mention that if your BBEG has a Maze before their Keep they can cast the Mirage to great effect by having their Familiar fly above it giving them sight and then manipulating it to this whim!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

That's an interesting idea....

[@keeganmbg6999]

Thanks!

[@Byssbod]

I forgot this was supposed to be a 'rogue' build

[@jakubguziur7522]

Oh no... with Mirage Arcane and Malleable Illusions, you're a pro Fortnite player.

[@Adurnis]

I wouldn’t allow a player to drop concentration on a silent image after doing illusory reality on it. Yea, it has a real aspect now, but I say the player is still actually sustaining its existence.

[@M0ebius]

You can say that, and if you are the DM it’s within you right to house rule/homebrew, but that’s not what the ability say.

[@Adurnis]

M0ebius Illusory Reality says nothing about concentration, actually. TM is making an extrapolation here which some might consider justified, but I don’t. The way I read it, an object created by my spell becomes physical and tangible, but *it’s still created by my spell*, and if I end the spell, the object ends with it.

[@M0ebius]

Adurnis But that’s what I’m saying. Every single spell/effect that requires concentration in the game explicitly says so in the description. Therefore if it doesn’t say it, the default assumption should be that it requires no concentration. If anything I think you’re the one extrapolating.

[@keeganmbg6999]

I honestly concur with Moebius, further more if it’s already real why does it have to have concentration? Seems odd to me.

[@Adurnis]

M0ebius I see where you’re coming from. You see this ability as an independent one. I see it as an enhancement of already-existing illusion spellcasting. The ability description isn’t definitive either way, but you lean in the direction of the former, while I think the latter case is stronger. I think it could have been made clearer by the designers.