The Impossible Turn with

[@Zav]

Great discussion, lots to think about.

[@CFITOMAHAWK]

Better practice first over a mile long or less highway section with some headwind or better, WITH A CROSSWIND ON IT, . Simulation a runway at 1, 000 feet agl over that highway section, them sim a take off from it, climb at Vy, say at 1,800 agl, power idle, nose down, 45 degr bank at slightly under Vglide. Flaps, align early to the 1k agl sim runway. If a crosswind, AFTER go around, CLIMB AGAIN to 1,880 agl and Turnback to the wind again, never tailwind turnback. Repeat. Those are callet 270 Turnbacks to opposite runway.

[@GoldSealFlight]

Another thing to consider is the runway length. On a short runway, a Vy climb may put you too far from the airport to make it back. Climb angle must be adjusted based on wind and runway length.

[@CFITOMAHAWK]

@@GoldSealFlight I always climb my cherokee at Vy for better cooling. As a rule of thumb, i program the turnback before every take off. I know i can turnback from 700 agl with no power if had some wind for good climb angle, and i can land back with a tailwind of up to 12 knots on this 4,000 feet long runway. I had done that many times as a CFI. I learned 2 kinds of turnbacks EFATO from the retired CFI on the EmergencyLowManeuvering channel. Take a look, he has hard maneuvers to practice there.

[@billvolley]

Glider pilots learn to make the "impossible turn" from 200' agl. Given, gliders have a lower sink rate and a better L/D, but there is some combination of factors that will allow a safe return to the runway. Every aircraft is different and every flight is different.

[@GoldSealFlight]

So for them, it's not impossible at all. That's why we prefer the term "turnback".

[@outwiththem]

@@GoldSealFlight Right. And some call a turnaround the airport accident as "Anotherer Turnback crash". On the turnback maneuver you dont turn around the airport or anything. Just turnback to the runway closer to you. Many crashes are a Turnaround, NOT A TURNBACK.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@@outwiththem Right Arnold. Many crashes are when pilot decided to turnaround the airport, fell short and then the ignorants say as usual; See, another dummy did a Turnback Impossible turn and crashed. Add that crash to the turnback statistics.. Bullshiters with a big mouth.

[@SJSeverance]

I practice the maneuver at altitude to identify minimum required altitude and cement good procedural habits. The time to discover what's required isn't during an actual emergency. After practice in a PA28-180 I was able to make a 210 deg turn to get pointed toward the runway with 300'-350' of altitude loss, including an intentional 4 second delay after power loss to simulate "What the heck just happened?" Given that knowledge I identified 700' as my minimum altitude to make a turnback in that airframe and then practiced at the field. I found I was actually a bit high when returning to the runway coming back from that altitude.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

I used to teach turnbacks on the 4,600 feet runway local. Cherokees, Cessnas and Grumman Tigers. You will take over 500 agl to turnback and land, that is the minimum altitude for a no power turnback but is IF, and again, IF a strong 45 angle crosswind. Higher agl if not much wind. Dont fool yourself with that 350' to finish a part of it only. Then at the 180 point, the strong tailwind will make you pop full flaps, cut the mixture and cut the flaps on the flare. I did all that to avoid overshoot my under 5k long runway. I also taught 50 feet EFATO and the LOTOT on those airplanes. I did all that on the runway, not just sim "At Altitude" only which is fake EFATO. You have to practice EFATO as real or it is Fake EFATO practice.

[@SJSeverance]

@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 re-read everything I wrote and get back with me.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@@SJSeverance You are kind of boasting that you only lost 300 or so feet on a 210 degree turnback. You can get many killed by promoting that BS. I used to teach 2 kind of turnbacks ON THE RUNWAY in the 1990's cFI 9 years i was. I know all little details ab out them. I was the very first to make a video about turnbacks and 5 kinds of EFATO in 1995. I posted my 1995 video for 2 weeks only on youtube in 2010 and others started getting to know turnbacks and practicing them.. Some chumps still call them "Imposible Turns". They are not.

[@CFITOMAHAWK]

@@SJSeverance I learned 2 kinds of GRM and EFATO Turnbacks from ELM CFI above.. In 1996. 4 seconds to push nose down only if you panicked for 4 seconds. After practicing and programming before take off, you will take only 2-3 seconds to push nose dowEven students with 20 hours before solo can do that. IF. 300-350 FOR a 210 turn seem too low number. Unless you turned too steep at low weight and with a strong quartering crosswind you had. DID YOU LAND IT AFTER TURNBACK OR NOT. We used to do it on the runway too, landing it, not just "at altitude only". Fake turnbacks fool you.

[@SJSeverance]

@@CFITOMAHAWK pratice at altitude 1st, then off the runway. Turning back at 700 agl with the method discussed got me back with significantly more altitude than needed. I had to do a hard slip to get down.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

Only a panicky pilot will take 4 seconds to push nose down and turn.

[@Cherokee140Pilot]

Since our community loves acronyms, how about, EDDA, the Emergency Departure Decision Height? All based on your particular POH, of course. :)

[@outwiththem]

Minimum Turnback alt. power on this_____, Power off that____. We also put an altitude marker on altimeter.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@@outwiththem Like MTA. Minimum Turnback Alt. 400 agl power on for me. 800 agl on my cherokee if light winds. Strong 1/4 crosswind i had done turnbacks on Cherokee 180 from 500 agl, but then pop flaps, cut mixture and dive to the numbers on a slip to avoid overshoot the 4k long runway local..

[@outwiththem]

@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Yes Jay, Minimum Turnback Alt. for partial power We set on the altimeter in 1996. Glory Days.. You had a homemade suction cup altimeter marker from a dollar store you said. LoL..

[@zappatx]

Well that's easy! Salina, KS has a 12,301 foot runway!! Engine problems you are still able to land straight ahead!

[@outwiththem]

Some call a turnaround the airport accident as "Another Turnback crash". That is BS from the ones ignorants on Turnbacks. On the turnback maneuver you dont turn around the airport or anything. Just turnback to the runway closer to you. Many crashes are a Turnaround, NOT A TURNBACK.

[@CFITOMAHAWK]

Right. Some dont know how to maneuver hard like on the 2 kinds of Turnbacks. And call it a Turnaround. LOL. Turnaround what ? What ?

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@@CFITOMAHAWK They are Mild Maneuvering Pilots talking about the hard maneuvers they cannot do. Lots of Bullshitters on UsA GA. .

[@pilotjerry]

Dangerous and incomplete discussion! I expected you to pull out a slide rule. You sounded woke and sudo intellectual!