The Infamous Barrel Episode - TNG: Ethics - Season 5, Episode 16

[@NewbieStarTrek]

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[@milkitea669]

This episode really solidifies Worf being the most mid creature in the Star Trek universe. He's my favourite character because despite trying his best, he is such a mediocre Klingon, mediocre dad, mediocre Star Fleet officer, son, brother, etc. His decision to embrace his Klingon heritage really clashes with all his other life decisions.

[@GrandGoblin]

That all changes when he gets transferred to DS9 where he becomes Chuck Norris

[@johnathanmichaud867]

Ah yes, the time Worf once again gets his ass kicked. This time by invisible Donkey Kong.

[@probochronicles3991]

12:46 I mean, she did perform an autopsy on a Ferengi scientist when told specifically not to, that it was against Ferengi culture. Another instance was when the Enterprise found the Romulan officer, and she did everything she could to get Worf to donate his blood or whatever it was that could save the Romulan. Even that guy refused to have anything Klingon in his body, and he eventually dies....

[@ANTIStraussian]

I think that happens today. Cops find someone with a bunch of bullet holes and the family says autopsy is against our culture and the murder detectives just shrug and do it anyway to try and find the killer.

[@humblemumble80]

They haven't gotten to that episode yet so shhh🤫

[@TheAdamGiles]

It would have been cool if his spine had repaired itself anyway while they deliberated about the surgery just to show that their view on suicide had been wrong for generations and reflected on all the kilingons that needlessly died over the years. 🤷

[@MuzzyBarker]

I think the in-universe reason for Worf choosing Riker rather than Picard is twofold: 1) Given the events in Redemption (and to a lesser degree, the death of Duras), Picard is not looking to take an active role in Klingon culture. He's had to deal with a lot of fuckery dealing with Klingons. Riker, on the other hand, has managed to gain the respect of his Klingon crewmates without having to contend with a conflict of interest. 2) Worf and Will are friends. They've been chummy since season one and they actually hang out together. Worf was willing to follow Will to the edge of the quadrant when he was offered the Aries and he's shpwn a willingness to ride or die for him on more than one occasion. Absent the son that he won't put through the ordeal or the brothers who are unavailable, Riker is the most logical choice to enact a family ritual.

[@singularrookhart7501]

You were thinking of "Casa Bonita" from South Park. It's in Denver, Colorado and I work just a few blocks away from it. It's not pirate themed, its an attempt to be a Mexican village indoors (but Black Bart's pirate cave is a part of the experience). The most striking feature is a three-story indoor waterfall with actual cliff-divers. And yes, Parker and Stone did purchase it after covid shut downs put the restaurant on hard financial times.

[@NewbieStarTrek]

Yes!

[@BrokenShale]

Just a quick correction on the Washington state combat law from a Washingtonian: you have to stop when the cop tells you to. You can’t sit on a dude and go ground and pound. It’s at the officers descretion

[@NewbieStarTrek]

Ah okay gotcha

[@harrypothead42024]

I cannot wait until you guys get to Deep Space 9. You have not seen anything until you see Avery Brooks.

[@Murphys00]

“YOU BETRAYED YOUR UNIFORM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

[@u-moo-u8117]

"NO! YOU TOOK THEM AWAY!!! I HAD ALMOST UNLOCKED THE SECRETS OF THE UNIVERSE...and now it's gooone..."

[@MrPojopojo]

In regard to the assisted suicide concept, the Romans also had the concept of falling upon ones sword, where you would fall upon your sword, dying. Your friend could be there to 'hold' the sword and assist in ensuring it goes in quick and vital. The klingons always felt like they took a lot of cultural keys with honour from samurai and ancient classical civilizations.

[@Puckanm]

Hey Friends /wave Love These Episodes. Hope you Start DS9 Soon! 😃

[@probochronicles3991]

2:55 they did it in Star Trek 6 the undiscovered country, when the Klingon ship was hit by torpedoes and lost gravity. There was floating Pepto Bismol blobs, or Klingon blood, and a guy got his whole arm shot off at the shoulder....

[@NinjaCthulhu]

You know, I feel bad for Beverley. The writers did her wrong so many times (just they did with Geordi), often portraying her as incompetent, petty, and weak.

[@NewbieStarTrek]

Yes, they didn't know how to write their female characters very well. Though to be fair, we still have that problem today.

[@Penultimeat]

Captain, I have lost in combat against a barrel. My honor is gone. I will do what I must.

[@TJStock85]

You guys are so much fun to listen to & I can't wait to hear some of the upcoming episodes. Obviously, a touchy subject as this requires a delicate balance, but we'll save that for another podcast. 😂 The takaway that I get from this is mostly how Worf as a Klingon "warrior" is now seen as unable to defend himself in battle or be able to live the full live to the extent that he was. I believe THAT was why he made the choice to perform the ritualistic un-aliving. As for Dr. Hillary McKinnon, I think she would make a better replacement for Dr. Crusher than even Polaski. Too bad she turned out to be Starfleet's version of Josef Mengele. I'm trying to remember, but think there was news prior to this about Jack Kevorkian (who was convicted of 2nd degree murder for the assisted unaliving of terminal patient) so I wonder if that played a part in the writing. I give this podcast a 9.8 Don't change anything, I think you guys are the best , but I just wanted to leave room for improvement. 😊

[@rux8626]

"Why is it so funny to throw people out of wheelchairs" this is why Newbie Star Trek is great. Remember when El Pollo Loco had that chili lime chicken? That sauce was so good, allegedly. The place from South Park that is also a real place is Casa Bonita.

[@veganbeastmode]

I remember this episode being made around the time when Dr. Kevorkian was making the headlines.

[@ElysiaWhitemoonOmega]

one thing about respecting believe, you dont, you acknowledge a persons believe, respect has to be earned, if someone has a stupid believe, i dont repesct it, but i do acknowledge that you have that belief

[@indiedavecomix3882]

How funny would the scene have been if it went like this: Worf: Riker, I'm paralyzed and I need you to kill me. Riker: Ok. (pulls out his phaser, set's it to it's highest setting then just blasts him)

[@NestorCaster]

35:39: Well based on a lot of interviews the years, Worf getting owned by anything on TNG, more times than not, was by design. It was basically a short cut for saying that a particular advisory or circumstance was so great or powerful that if Worf could be beaten so easily, what chance does the rest do the crew have-- with glaring exceptions like Data, being present for many of those “monster” or “Issue” of the week episodes… even the writers and show runner saw it, and knew that it became an overplayed trope which was done to the point of parody, if not, farce. Notably that plan for Worf wasn’t used for his stint for DS9. Also, if you check out the ShuttlePod Podcast, the episode with Michael Dorn, I think covers this very topic.

[@TheTonyMcD]

2:40 Inertial dampeners always work to exactly to the point that people will still get slightly knocked about. Regardless of acceleration rate, they always leave just a little bit left to knock the crew around.

[@andiward7068]

Anyone who's been in a car knows if you stop to abruptly it jerks things around. Ha

[@benjaminscott8198]

I'm listening to this while sitting in my wheelchair. Long story short, I had an accident 2½yrs ago and severely damaged my spine. I have extremely limited use of my left side, including leg and arm. I can't do much by myself and have been fighting Social Security for disability benefits for years. I'm supposed to have my spine fused in multiple areas to help alleviate the pain, but I'll never be 100% again. My older brother was born without the use of his legs from Spina Bifida and severe scoliosis. He's never thought about assisted self-deletion. But that's because even as a kid, he was a grump old fart.

[@EmmaWatsonthe3rd]

Much love and respect.... stupid delays, so demeaning. Glad I live in Canada

[@Alulim-Eridu]

I hope things are getting easier, or at least they soon will get better for you!!!

[@blunk778]

Cant wait for DS9

[@jochenheiden]

Best. Series. Ever.

[@wraithflaire1639]

​@@jochenheidenPersonally I like Voyager over DS9. TNG is the best.

[@glennwilliams2950]

@@wraithflaire1639HAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAH😂😂😂😂

[@kieranelliott5607]

Sometimes these podcasts make me forget Crusher is not, in fact, a serial killer. Dan did try to remind of that I suppose.

[@JonathanClarkeau]

Worf made Beverly accept Alexander so she wouldn't intentionally murder him.

[@MuzzyBarker]

I love that this episode was almost completely confined to the ship. Aside from the injured passengers that they picked up, there was no external factor to obscure the main issue. I feel like the easier way to portray Dr. Russell's ethics as grey would be to lean into how little testing she's actually done with these procedures. It's unusual for a doctor to be experimenting with multiple new forms of medicine with very little headway in any of them, and the fact that she's trying all these new medications in an uncontrolled environment opens up the possibility that she's just trying to make a name for herself. If Dr. Crusher had pointed out Dr. Russell's lack of concern for the risks, then their opposition would have been more balanced. I really appreciated that Worf "died" for awhile, just because that gave us the one moment that Beverly let go of her insistence that she could save Worf. I knew he was going to come back, but she didn't, and I valued that moment.

[@BryanBergdahl-r1c]

Best "new" star trek podcast for sure. It's absurd how many things I agree with them as much as I disagree but that's the point. Everyone has their own perspective and I am sure I found a unique perspective.

[@NewbieStarTrek]

Haha well thank you

[@jordankeshawarz1]

Potential new name for the show "Star Trek....Beyond the Barrel...."

[@Frogface91]

49:00 Riker lying over Worf like that scene where Arwen appears above Aragorn when he's fallen off the cliff, except with angry spittle.

[@Falconman1121]

Ok, since this was posted months ago I'm sure it will be buried, but I have to say something. While you guys have opened my eyes to how terrible Bev is as a doctor, I am wholeheartedly on her side for this one. The episode is called Ethics for a reason. It is not ethical to endanger a patient's life with such a risky procedure , that hasnt even been tested or approved for teating, when there is next to no chance of them dying from their condition. Dr. Kate pushes it just for her own glory and to get the data for her research. There may be a benefit for people in the future, but that doesnt make it ethical. The oath doctors take is "First, do no harm.", and Beverley is right to say that being paralyzed but stable means that this risky procedure, in which failure means death, is harm. "But Worf was going to kill himself!" Sure. Its also not ethical to ask a patient who is suicidal to throw themselves on your alter. I also really hate that you so quickly dismiss the scene where Dr Kate (seriously i cant even remember the real name now. You guys are hilarious) kills the wounded patient. She furthers her research, without consent or authorization without even trying a standard treatment. She may have thought the patient was doomed, and her idea was the only hope, but her method is completely unproven and according to modern medical practice not even considered experimental. That's Tuskegee level ethics violation. That moment is when the gut instinct that Bev has about her is justified. Bev's dressing down of Kate at the end is totally justified. She got lucky she didnt kill Worf. Beverly tells her, "Genuine research takes time. Sometimes a lifetime of painstaking, detailed work in order to get any results." And she's right! Dr Kate is ignoring the ethics and endangering people to further herself. She cloaks it in the veil of saving people in the future, but its wrong nonetheless. Even at the end she is more concerned with herself. She says to Bev, "You just can't admit that it was MY research that made this possible." That right there, that's her lack of character and ethics showing through.

[@Falconman1121]

(Also, Bev's stance against Worf's suicide is understandable but misguided. If Worf wants to end his life, it's his business, but Riker is right in that if he is justifying it by cloaking his decision as a cultural one, he, Worf, has to actually follow the customs.)

[@NewbieStarTrek]

Marvin's argument, at least, was that the scene where Kate killed the patient was clearly added after the fact to make her side look worse. If you remove that scene, everything is clearly against Beverly's side, it's abundantly clear that you should give Worf all of the options available to him instead of withholding critical medical information from him and then let him make an informed decision. The fact that they had to write Kate doing something so comically evil as a cul-de-sac scene proves that her overall point was correct.

[@Falconman1121]

@NewbieStarTrek Firstly, removing the scene is disingenuous. It's there for a reason. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not part of the text. Secondly, the behavior she demonstrates in that scene is supported in the rest of the episode. The scene in the cargo bay is just a mask off moment. So I started to write a response to the point about telling Worf, but ran across something that messed with my point. I was going to say that Genetronics (spelling is a guess) isn't an option because it hasn't been approved for humanoids, so not presenting it to Worf is as valid as not presenting homeopathy. BUT, Dr. Kate says she's tried it on holo-simulations and has gotten the odds to 37%. Then she says, "It has to be tried eventually." This tells me that Starfleet Medical is the problem, because there is NO INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE TO APPROVE THINGS. Like, where is the FDA approval, Kate? So, given that, I guess telling Worf about it is fine since it's the Wild West out there. Under modern Earth medical ethics though, that procedure is not valid and shouldn't be presented as a real option. Also, I'm pleasantly surprised to get a reply. So thank you!

[@NewbieStarTrek]

Marvin wouldn't say that the scene would be removed, but rather that Kate's side is not well-written as being complicated. If you need, essentially, a single instance of irresponsible mad science that's so egregious that it challenges otherwise their entire character, it implies that the character needs to be better written to make their overall point. Bad guys aren't bad guys because they do one bad thing, they are bad guys because they make a series of bad decisions.

[@SilverGarrison]

Wasn't ready for a superbestfriendsplay reference, that hit me like a barrel.

[@polishedpebble4111]

Dan was the minority on the podcast, but as far as audience opinion on Crusher goes, he's the majority. The option Crusher faced was: Worf guaranteed to live with crutches, or have Worf play russian roulette with 7 out of 10 chambers loaded - either he recovers or dies.

[@jochenheiden]

I played the Star Trek game on NES. Loved it! I got stumped on a level and had to call the company for help to get past it. 😂

[@deelaneenn6677]

Im ojibwe native american and in my tribe the elderly men would often go on "a big hunt" and tell the rest of the tribe not to wait around for him. he would take his bow and whatever he needs and literally just go off on his own to die when he stops being able to feed himself. it was never seen as a morbid thing in the culture either but almost a gratitude and understanding in life and death.

[@ghostbusterguy20011]

The actress who plays the Doctor who you referred to as Hillary Clinton is actually Caroline Kava

[@danieldavis6745]

TNG THE FIGHTING GAME: Troi would have mental attacks. Riker powerful kicks or the fake blind folded armor. Grordie visor attacks. Beverly has a laser sword

[@NewbieStarTrek]

Geordi would definitely just have the MVC2 Cyclops moveset

[@johnathanmichaud867]

Data pulls his own arm off and beats you with it. O'Brien can teleport. Guinan does crazy cat pose style.

[@NewbieStarTrek]

Picard would have a Locutus Install. Kirk would be a rush down character using Kirk fu, his super would be a wall appearing, he jumps off of it and then awkwardly lands on his opponent causing both of them to take damage. Worf would be a stance character who changes weapons.

[@danieldavis6745]

@NewbieStarTrek y'all were right. I was thinking ground attack MVC2 Wolverine for Worf.

[@johnathanmichaud867]

Barclay uses holograms to impersonate other characters, like Shang Tsung. Vash just straight up hits you in the dick with a horgahn. Gowron stares at you until you just get creeped out and give up.

[@probochronicles3991]

39:16 I also remember Guinan beating Worf at the phaser range....

[@ghostbusterguy20011]

I think actually the Klingon culture like a lot of it was based off of Samurai culture

[@andiward7068]

You don't *have to* put a trigger warning, but it's an appreciated kindness to those affected.

[@damenwhelan3236]

45:51 Picard and riker where trying to prank work and it went wrong... that'd why they're snickering. .

[@davidvondoom2853]

I'm disappointed there was no Killary joke in there, considering she killed a patient and almost killed Worf. Also, the tapatio hot sauce sitting on the counter is a nice touch!

[@DwightKShrute0]

I think that's actually Tajin based on the colors on the bottle.

[@deveus1]

I want you to know how much I appreciate that thumbnail. Excellent work

[@biscuitkeyboard]

I am with Dan on this one guys. The scene that put the clone doctor under scrutiny in my opinion is supposed to show the doctors actual disregard for life in comparison to her desire for data on her experiments. She is as much a mad scientist as she is a doctor and notices she didn't do those involuntary tests on starfleet personnel, instead she took some other species that she knew nothing about physiologically and just expected that experimental medicine would work.

[@NewbieStarTrek]

Marvin's argument is that that scene was inserted just so they could make that point. That scene has nothing to do with the actual plot of the episode, and from a writer's standpoint was obviously put in to make the Kate doctor seem extra bad.

[@biscuitkeyboard]

​@@NewbieStarTrekI think it was written poorly but I feel the scene is meant to actually show you who this lady is and her mindset. The whole plot in my opinion is revolving around two doctors who have different ideals, the scene itself is meant to show you who she actually is in a situation where she is in control of peoples lives and she mainly sees them as "opportunities" i would say, it's meant to emphasis her focus on data over lives. I respect Marvin and the rest of the groups opinion though.

[@DanielSolis]

Takanakuy is Quechua for "To hit each other"

[@EmmaWatsonthe3rd]

Cool! When did they say that word? I must have missed it. I love Quechuan (sic) tell me more!!! That's Peruvian sort of area right?? Sincerely, a Colombian Canadian

[@TheSeventhZombie]

The joke Lower Deck made about this eps is damn hilarious

[@ChateauLonLon]

What was the joke? Having trouble remembering!

[@TheSeventhZombie]

@@ChateauLonLonDuring a series of holodeck tests Tendi is told to assist a paralyzed Klingon to commit ritual suicide. My fav part is the Klingon explaining he broke his back picking up a peanut 😂

[@ChateauLonLon]

@@TheSeventhZombie I remember that!! God that killed me lol

[@nowhereman6019]

This episode made me say "I'm With Her", and I'm not comfortable with that.

[@Sagitarria]

Assisted suicide is legal in Oregon and I think a few other states.

[@markmahoney4089]

I wonder what worshippers of Bagul would think about being in Worfs situation? Like what if you cant be one of those cursed murder kids anymore cause you are handicapped?

[@NewbieStarTrek]

Bagul would never give up

[@anotherjuanbitesthedust9443]

Please watch DS9, i feel like Sarah is gonna love War Warf

[@markmaurer6370]

22:26 community lampooned chevy chase for that

[@TheystromReview]

To Sara: I was really baked and have to listen to this podcast again cause I feel like I missed 70% of it but I was paying attention when you asked for a review. Voice is not too high but this seems to be a recurring concern for you, so allay it.

[@MuzzyBarker]

1:12:18 made me really curious about how the recap of a certain season 7 episode will go.

[@DwightKShrute0]

I really hated this episode tbh. The two arguments from Beverly and the other doctor lacked a lot of nuance you could have had and didn't really get at the heart of why someone might be for or against assisted suicide. The two situations the two doctors argued about--the patient from the mining accident and Worf--had pretty obvious "correct" solutions, which then made the arguments between the doctors so one-sided that they weren't thought-provoking or interesting at all. Additionally, I know you liked that the other doctor didn't pay attention to Beverly, but don't you think she should have her medical license suspended for experimenting on a patient without consent, which then killed the patient even though the other treatment probably would have saved the patient? I know that person wasn't a part of the main staff, but they were still a person. You don't get to randomly experiment on a person, especially when there is a known treatment that is usually effective. In my opinion, one of the worst things Beverly did in this episodes was fail to report that incident, which then will allow the doctor to continue to experiment on people without consent and possibly result in more deaths at this doctor's hands which would have been preventable.

[@martinmartyn3030]

Couldn't they just put Worf in the Transporter and repair his spin.🤔🤔🤔

[@Tacom4ster]

I like that episode

[@NestorCaster]

20:55: AMEN… if anything Mappa could animate Star Trek Anime!!!

[@gearcheck101]

@NewbieStarTrek you need to play the PC version of Star Trek 25th Anniversary

[@rogos2528]

This is fun, just wish you put clips in of the show

[@samuraiway11]

No medieval times is still there. ripleys believe it or not closed and became the pirates place. And the south park thing was a Mexican themed place

[@izzafizza339]

Yay new episode

[@harrypothead42024]

I haven't seen Barbie or Oppenheimer but Barbie is the greatest movie of the year simply because Ben Shapiro hates it so much

[@nickbrown638]

**N O H O N O R**

[@harrypothead42024]

Hillary Clinton didn't look like that back then, she had long hair so I believe this episode prompted her changing to her current look that she has had now for 30 years

[@dougkeyes4406]

No one is getting nominated for barbie

[@GeorgeWBush-gh6oy]

Texas Chicken Report: Chickfile and canes are over rated. Popeyes is the best.

[@S.Johannesson]

It's sad that Dr. Death & counselor Troy are such badly written characters.

[@jochenheiden]

Del Taco is awesome. Taco Bell is hot garbage.

[@youtmeme]

🥺😥😭😭

[@Ichigo187]

Omg pleeeeease how much to fix the ranks on the toons because these condos are definitely not being had senior officers lol Please fix to not be so high up.

[@ltcmdrdata47]

For once I agree with Ricardo. Trigger warnings? Life is one big trigger yo!

[@thod8820]

Sometimes people just wanna watch stuff without having to have issues they don't feel comfortable with dropped in their lap. Sometimes I see one and just decide not to watch, so it works for me. I don't see how it hurts anything to givea people a heads up on sensitive stuff

[@ltcmdrdata47]

EVERYTHING can trigger SOMEONE. That's life. There are people out there that have panic attacks over mustard. Seriously.

[@thod8820]

@@ltcmdrdata47 Yeah, but there's pretty common topics that in society are known to be upsetting. Usually involving violence, suffering, or death in one form or another. Such as suicide here, which is why we had a warning, which I appreciated. Nobody is warning about mustard, but if they did would that be so bad? I'd rather have a mustard and assault warning than hurt somebody who's uncomfortable with those topics. Just cause it doesn't bother you or me doesn't mean they don't deserve empathy.

[@ltcmdrdata47]

I know. I'm just triggered. 😶

[@icarus42046]