The Ingenious PRECIRAY Wheel Truing Stand

[@JimLangley1]

★ WATCH this video next about a super cool, rare vintage tool for broken spoke repairs kzbin.info/www/bejne/p3a7p6hjd8hpmsU

[@jantimmerman9454]

Heb al duizenden wielen gemaakt op dit wonder appraat, werkt feilloos, snel en zeer precies. Onmisbaar als je voor kwaliteit gaat van de wielen!!

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks very much for watching and the great comment Jan! Nice to know that you’ve built 1000s of wheels on your Preciray. 🙏

[@neilwheel]

The designer of this device used to go around the European trade shows giving demos of his machine. He told me to think of the opposite of a regular stand. Sit behind the stand, with the gauge plate at your elbow. Watch the needles and not the wheels. Don't be tempted to spin the wheel. Work valve hole to valve hole. It really does take minutes to finish a laced and tensioned wheel.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks a lot for watching and for sharing this story, Neil. I wish I had been able to attend one of those shows and had met him. It would be nice to know more about the inventor and how this ingenious truing stand came to be. I'm hoping someone who knows will comment and tell us. Thanks for the great comment!

[@monkey-life]

Was the designer French because of Fosse and Bosse? It’s an amazing tool and looks very intuitive to use.

[@morgansoulard]

This truing stand name probably comes from a contraction of "précis" (accurate or precise) and "rayon" (spoke). What a cool retro tool.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks a lot Morgan, that makes sense- I appreciate it! Glad you enjoyed the video.

[@hammelbammel1651]

I bought one couple of years ago (even with the original manual) and I'm using it to this day for wheelbuilding...

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and sharing how much you like yours Hammel, that's good to hear, appreciate it!

[@marvinsouw8974]

I worked at my first job, The Bicycleman of Orange, back in 1978; I first learned to build and true wheels there on a PreciRay wheel truing stand. We used charts to determine spoke length, then laced the wheels and did the truing on this incredible machine! This video brings back such memories! I wanted to buy the PreciRay, but the owner (to whom I owe a huge debt of gratitude and respect) didn't want to sell it - I didn't have much money anyway, but I learned a lot. Thank you SO much, Frank Both!

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and sharing your great story about using a PreciRay at The Bicycleman of Orange, love it ❤️🙏

[@johnnygordon445]

This video has prompted me to renovate my stand. When starting, you would use the rule at the side and the bottom - the one at the side indicated the hub (old) dimension, the one at the bottom allowed to measure from the rim to the upright, so starting with the hub width, subtract the rim width and divide by 2, use the bottom rule - rotate the wheel until that dimension is reached, then rotate the wheel to the needle and adjust till it reaches the red line - this is then the centre line(dish). When truing, don't adjust till the redline is reached - only go close, only go accurate on the final rotation. Hope this helps, built hundreds of wheels on these. When building say 10 pairs of the same wheels, you would do the measurements and then do all 10 without having to re-measure, no current stand allows this. Great video!

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks a lot for watching johnny, I'm glad my video inspired you to renovate your stand! Appreciate you sharing your tips for using the Preciray very much - thank you ❤🙏

[@peterharrer3261]

A major challenge in truing wheels is keeping track of where I am among all of those identical spokes and nipples. I use masking tape to mark off areas out of true, but it's time consuming and can go wrong. This stand obviates all of that. Just watch the needles. Would love to own a Preciray, but a lighter, more mobile version would be more practical. -- About the video: The down shot used in the beginning to display the assembly was a practical choice. It provided all the visual information we needed, ably supported by your voice-over commentary. Well done, Jim. Many thanks.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and commenting, Peter! I'm happy you liked that down shot - actually took some time to figure that one out! Now that I've been able to inspect one of these Precirays closely, it sure seems like they could make a lower cost version just by shrinking it for benchtop use. Or maybe someone will see this and get inspired to make something similar for amateurs rather than pros. We can hope🙂

[@swnorcraft7971]

I learned to true spoked wheels 40 years ago on motorcycles. A truing stand like this would work wonders on MC wheels as well as bicycles. A truly unique and very well thought out design. Thanks for sharing...........

[@JimLangley1]

You're very welcome, SW. Thank you for watching and commenting. In the Preciray instructions it says that it was made for both bicycle and motorcycle wheels so you're right about it working well for both.

[@LocksRocks]

This is a super cool tool! It really looks user friendly. I really like how you can very easily see the changes you make in real time.

[@JimLangley1]

Really glad you enjoyed the truing stand, Locks! Thanks a lot for watching and another great comment, appreciate it!

[@Bikeops2021]

That's amazing, why did not become more popular? sure the price is tough for amateur user but I've never seen one in any workshop I've been in! Thank for sharing Jim.

[@JimLangley1]

You're asking a great question, Graham, I wonder the same thing. I don't really know. It could simply be because they're more expensive than less complicated truing stands and by a lot. From the comments so far it sounds like they were marketed better in Europe than in the USA, too. Thanks for watching and commenting, Graham, appreciate it!

[@MultiMeschi]

Pretty sure it is still very common in Europe. My bike shop (existing ~30 years) has one.

[@wiseoldman5841]

Hi Jim, Thanks for sharing. If you want to get a bit fancy on your park, pick up a dial gage and secure with a small L metal bracket you find the the home center. I cut mine to fit and drilled a hole in the upright for a small bolt. Put mine on the right upright to measure lateral movement. It's pretty simple and accurate.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and the tip, appreciate it. I have used Park Tool’s indicator kit on one of my Park truing stands amzn.to/3tMBbiN Their stands come with holes for the kit. It comes with 2 dials, one for lateral, another for vertical. Thanks again!

[@seventiesandbeyond]

Great video! Thank you for taking the time to show us

[@JimLangley1]

You’re very welcome Marcus! Thanks so much for watching and the great comment!

[@cosinus_square]

I'm only a fair weather wheel builder and use a Park Tool TS-8 due to space constraints. However, have been contemplating building a heavy weight truing stand myself ( got some 7mm thick steel plate lying around ). It's so satisfying to use a truing stand that doesn't flynch when handling the wheel.

[@JimLangley1]

Yes, COSINUS, a hefty stand that doesn't move is very helpful. I think you'll feel it was well worth the effort if you build one. Thanks for watching!

[@ScrubsIsee]

"Let me know if you like a copy of the instructions." I hereby do. Highly appreciated, thank you. As we have such a stand in our workshop and nobody knows how to use it (including me until now), I'd really would like to get the instructions, so I can give some of our wheels "a spin". Thanks for providing a download-link or similar.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching! I can email the instructions to you. Send me your email address at jimlangley at gmail and I’ll send you the instructions. Happy to do it.

[@ScrubsIsee]

@@JimLangley1 Thank you. Email is on the way.

[@similitude22]

@@JimLangley1 Thanks for sharing! I've found one so... I've send you an email too!

[@--onewheelskyward--]

Such an amazing piece of engineering and such appropriately lovely 80's background music to boot! :)

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks a lot for watching and commenting, Andrew! I'm happy you enjoyed the video.

[@cecilecorpuz5735]

Great stand of which I used in the past and I've used them all Park, Hozon and Var and so on, but I will still revert to my old trusty $ 2.00 swap meet find of which I built wheels for 2 now defunct bicycle distributors in now know as SILICON Valley, D.I.N. Industries, Mt View and KOBE, San Jose, all toll I must have built nearly 6000 plus wheels with my $ 2.00 swap meet find, toss in the other wheels that I have built for several bicycle shops and also my own shop I think I must have built nearly 10,000 wheels with this truing stand brand was unknown it was Cast Aluminum and was very simple and easy to use. When building a wheel I'll have 4 principles to follow, sight, sound, feel and touch I have been building wheels for the better part of 45 years and I'll have no need for a spoke tensioner and so on. I've also built a wheel while out on a ride from San Jose to Santa Cruz, I bent my rim when bunny hoping some rail road tracks, so I went to a bicycle shop to purchase a rim to rebuild my wheel, the shop said you'll probably need us to build your wheel, at that time I was finishing up on a couple of popsicles, I then asked them for several rubber bands when they gave me the rubber bands I waved the popsicle sticks at the guys in the shop and told them I got it covered and thank you for the rubber bands, I then tied the rim to my the wheel with my toe straps then started tov transfer the spoke over to the new rim, I tightened up the spokes evenly then back into the rear drops, the popsicle sticks were mounted via rubber bands one on each side of the seat stays, doing the slide ruler type of movement then the other on the top side for the high and low, the dishing was basically lining up the center of the rim to the center of the dome nut of the brake caliper, I did this right in front of the bicycle shop and of course they were watching, when all said and done one of the guys from the shop came out to check out the wheel and he was very suprised, spoke tension was good and the dish was off by less than a mm, the guy asked where did you learn how to build wheels like that, I then asked if they bought any wheels from D.I.N. he said sure, I replied, then I'm the guy who probably built those wheels.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks a lot for watching and especially for sharing your awesome wheel building adventures story Cecile 🙏 - made my day! 10K wheel builds - that's amazing, congratulations! Surre made a cast aluminum truing stand that was very popular back in the day. I understand it's sought after by collectors now. Here's the patent for it on Google in case you'd like to check it out and see if it's what you used: patents.google.com/patent/US2526096A/en

[@JimLangley1]

A few of you asked if it's possible to buy this stand. A friend on Facebook found this link to a distributor in the Netherlands www.veloplus.be/.../speci.../preciray/pre-b-485.html In order to buy one you would need to be in the bicycle business or visit a bicycle shop that buys from this supplier and have them order one for you. Otherwise, the stands do appear on eBay.com and other places from time to time used. Good luck!

[@ddahstan6876]

WOW. "A mechanic or a rookie can true a wheel on this stand in five minutes!" That's one heavenly fudging truing stand. I just trued my first wheel a few days ago and still going at it because 1.OCD 2.Perfectionist Mentality 3.It was slightly ran over by a car in the parking lot by a person who was looking for the drive through to pick up their meds :)). No worries, I only got a little lacceration and bruise. Seriously, that's one handsome stand and wish I could afford it. I'm even salivating over the base itself. Planning on truing more wheels soon so I'll learn knowing When To Stop. Waiting on a Mavic Zircal spoke tool as I bought the wrong size with first order. My truing stand at the moment, a saved fork from a Giant carbon bike from a theft attempt. The thieve aborted the pursuit once the seatstay gave out. The fork is now punched through and glued into a little oval wooden candle holder. A valve and its nut is the truing indicator, threading through a tiny metal plate and zipptied to the fork. Voila!!

[@JimLangley1]

@@ddahstan6876 thanks for watching and the awesome comment. Glad you didn’t get hurt badly by that driver and great job salvaging your Giant fork and turning it into a truing stand - Bravo!! 👏 🙏👍

[@ddahstan6876]

@@JimLangley1 As a DIY stand and an oval wooden candle holder involved... the best part is setting a warm cup of Chai tea on it... or putting truing tools/accessories or dumbell in the little wells. Just perfect. By the way, because I've watched your wheel building video (along with some other related ones), I'm confident building my first wheel when time allowed. Thank you for all your wonderful, helpful and encouraging videos!!! ❤️ 😍

[@JimLangley1]

@@ddahstan6876 KZbin needs to allow sharing photos in comments so you could show your truing stand- be great to see it! I’m happy to hear my other wheel building videos are helpful and you’re ready to build wheels. If you need any help let me know. Thanks again!🙏

[@freelovefree]

Thanks, Jim! For sharing with us this amazing mechanics video.

[@JimLangley1]

You're very welcome! Thank you for watching and the great comment, glad you enjoyed it❤🙏

[@eegaugh]

A 1984 catalogue shows the model BI for cycle wheels at £272 plus tax and the M for motor cycle wheels at £292; a little expensive for the amateur wheel builder for whom, however, the simultaneous amplified display seems a killer feature. You mention the need for correct tension as well as geometric truth; this introduces a third factor and I expect you go into this in your other videos.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and for sharing what you found on pricing in that catalog from 1984, appreciate it! 🙏

[@benc8386]

That looks amazing. Might have to try and make one one day.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching, Ben! It's a pretty straight forward mechanical design so I bet you could do it. I'd like to see it if you do 🙂

[@RyanBuildsWheels]

Thanks for sharing Jim! I've had my hands on a Preciray for a few years now and will be detailing it's restoration in a video of my own in the future. Mine is missing the dishing gauge portion so I'll need to machine a set of new parts for that (amongst some other custom upgrades) so it's super useful to see the close ups you took. It will be interesting to compare and contrast the Preciray's accuracy / speed of work to my P&K Lie Special 250 too. Keep up the great work, subscribed!

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks so much for watching and subscribing Ryan, really appreciate it. I’m happy that my video will help you in your restoration of your Preciray. I will look forward to your video! I used a P&K for a few builds but couldn’t figure out how to use it for production wheel building. But I did like how the “clocks” worked and how easily you can chase perfect true and round- though it can become an obsession 🤣. I think you’ll see as I have that the Preciray doesn’t achieve the same level of perfection. Though maybe yours will be more precise than mine? Have fun with the resto and thanks again!!

[@neugentcycling938]

Jim - I have seen similar stands in Taiwan except that they didn't sit on the side. Their position was the same as a normal truing stand. Interestingly many of the wheel builders in Taiwan sit on the floor so they can support their arms with their knees. Of course, they build wheels for as long as 12 hours a day. Much more common in Taiwan is the use of dial indicators for both lateral and radial run out. This is, of course, only for the high-end wheel builders who normally build to a spec. Typical specs are .5 mm (20 thousandths ") radial and .2 mm (8 thousandths") lateral. Back when I was working over there the drive side rear spec was 130 KGF and the front was 120 KGF. That was for the Velomax wheels being built there. Velomax actually had a spec of 150 KGF for the drive side rear for their US production. Nipples back then were not as good as they are today so they used brass nipples on the drive side rear wheels.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks a lot for watching and for sharing these fascinating details on how production wheels are and were built in Taiwan, John. 150kgf - wow! No wonder they used brass. With those trueness and roundness specs you wouldn’t need dial indicators but I realize without a way to put a number on it you couldn’t prove you met the standards. Great information, John. Thanks a lot!!

[@ivo_ivanov.road_cyclist]

Hi Jim, thanks for the informative videos! Cant you do the same type of setup and truing with a Park Tool stand and Park Tool TS-2DI Dial Indicator Gauge Set?

[@JimLangley1]

You're very welcome, ivo, and thanks for watching!! Yes, you can definitely use Park's dial indicator set amzn.to/3RaPp3g . I show them in my other video all about truing stands here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHeboWShpKygpa8 There's a difference in functionality between dial indicators and PreciRay's gauge though. Dial indicators spin around the dial and it's not as easy to read or understand what you're seeing. There's more of a learning curve basically. If you've got machining experience and are used to them it's no problem. But, lots of wheel builders who have tried them have told me they didn't feel they made truing any easier and stopped using them. I couldn't get used to mine, either. P&K Lie makes their lovely hand built truing stand with a different type of dial indicator that they call "clocks" and they work more like the PreciRay. I like the P&K I got to use for awhile, however I felt like if I wasn't careful I could break the "clocks," which were much more delicate than the simple PreciRay's. But, they are easier to understand, read and watch while truing than basic dial indicators: www.pklie.de/truing_stand.html Hope this helps and hanks again!

[@SDicksonCycling]

Just managed to source one (they’re like the proverbial hen’s teeth, at a reasonable price). Can’t wait to get it and start to use it. Will probably try and restore it so will be on the look out for you tube videos about that too.

[@SDicksonCycling]

Is it possible to get a copy of the instructions?

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks a lot for watching and congrats on finding a Preciray at a reasonable price! After you get it up and running please let me know what you think. Mine was in nice original condition, no need to restore it luckily. But one of the nice things is that it's mechanical so not overly difficult to understand and work on.

[@SDicksonCycling]

@@JimLangley1 Will do. I have tracked down what appears to be scans of the original instructions. Doesn't look like yours. Would you like a copy of what was published (I tracked it down on a forum somehwhere)?

[@JimLangley1]

@@SDicksonCycling yes please, thanks for offering- please email them to jimlangley@gmail Thanks so much!

[@cotswoldseeker5609]

Hey Jim, I hope this comment finds you happy and well :) I was just wondering if you have any update on this lovely stand, and especially how you're getting on with it now? I very nearly bought one secondhand here on ebay in the UK..just out of intrigue really, but then I remembered that you had said that you were not getting the results that you'd hoped for from yours. IIRC, you were hoping that a set of new rollers would help things and make the machine more accurate..I am wondering if this is the case, or if you've gone back to using your good old Park truing stands..?? I still love the idea of these type of stands..but only if they actually make the truing process quicker and easier! Best wishes from the UK 😀

[@JimLangley1]

Nice to hear from you again Cotswold. I’ve gone back to my Park stands. I wish I could try a working or new Preciray. I still think it should work and don’t understand what’s wrong. It’s entirely possible it was damaged at some point since it was used and was also shipped to me in pieces. I can’t see anything out of order but I don’t have any experience with these stands. The thing is I know people used and loved these stands. But at this point since I can’t be sure how to fix it, and I don’t want to modify it since it appears all original, I’m enjoying it as a display piece only and doing my wheel work on my Parks. I don’t think you should buy one unless you can try it and verify that it’s in proper working order. Hope this helps. Maybe a Preciray expert will see this and offer some suggestions on what could be wrong with mine. Thanks again.

[@sylvainmichaud2262]

Your pronunciation of Préciray is almost spot on. To be perfect the é is pronounced like "prey" but without emphasis on the "ey" as for the "r" well, It's a tough one. The french "r" is one of the most difficult sound for English speaking people. The English "r" sound puts the tip of the tongue pointing up while in French it's down touching towards the teeth while opening the mouth ever so slightly at the end and it also include some sort of a vibrato. BTW I'm French, not from France but from Canada in the city of Montréal.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks so much, Sylvain, I'm happy I didn't get it too wrong and I appreciate you explaining 🙂I hope to get to Montréal someday. It looks beautiful.

[@sylvainmichaud2262]

@@JimLangley1 If you ever come to Montreal, send me a message.

[@JimLangley1]

@@sylvainmichaud2262 thanks, Sylvain, I'll do that if I do.

[@robertogarcia2688]

Hi Jim, what an interesting device! I've never seen one like that, I'm very curious about those instructions. Would it be possible for me to obtain a copy of those instructions? greetings from Mexico.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching Roberto, I’m happy you enjoyed learning about the Preciray. If you can send me your email address in an email to jimlangley@gmail I will send you the instructions. Thanks!

[@Leviathandk]

Preciray is my favorite. You should check out the Villum as well

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and sharing your take on the Preciray and mentioning the Vellum, another advanced stand. Here’s a link to it for anyone interested in learning more. Thank you! www.hollandmechanics.com/machinery/bicycle-wheel/villum/

[@KbenhavnsCykelkooperativ]

Great video! and an even greater machine :) Where can we finde the nice cartoon manual?

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for the great comment. I am happy to email you a copy of the manual if you give me your email address. Thanks again!

[@matthiassnoeck6102]

Will you do a video on the Centrimaster wheel truing tool?

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks a lot for the suggestion, appreciate it and if I get a chance to use the stand, I’ll consider it. Thanks for watching and the great idea.

[@leazion8658]

Hola Jim! Excelente contenido. Te hago una consulta de novato... cuando centramos una rueda ya sea trasera o delantera tiene que quedar perfectamente en el medio en el centrador stand? Osea que ambas guias del centrador izquierda y derecha queden a la misma distancia con respecto a la rueda. Porque me pasa que de un lado me queda mas pegado que el otro. Eso significa que esta mal aparaguada? Para que esté bien ya sea trasera o delantera deberia quedar perfectamente al medio? Espero haber sido claro. Muchisimas gracias. Saludos desde patagonia Argentina

[@JimLangley1]

¡Muchas gracias por mirar, Lea! Creo que es posible que desee ver mi video Cómo usar los soportes de alineación de ruedas porque explico todo sobre cómo usar diferentes tipos de soportes de alineación de ruedas. Aquí hay un enlace a ese video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHeboWShpKygpa8 Pero, para responder a su pregunta, cuando coloca una rueda en un soporte de alineación, depende de la forma en que funcione el soporte de alineación si la rueda estará o no centrada en el soporte de alineación. En los soportes de alineación de la marca Park Tool y otros que funcionan de la misma manera, estos soportes están diseñados para sostener la rueda en el centro automáticamente cuando coloca las ruedas. Pero otros diseños de soportes no hacen esto automáticamente. En su lugar, intente ponerlo en el centro ajustando los soportes de las ruedas para que la rueda esté en el medio lo mejor que pueda. Sin embargo, la rueda no tiene que estar en el centro de los soportes de alineación para que las ruedas sean verdaderas. Por lo general, solo se alinea en un lado de la rueda, ya que la mayoría de las personas ven mejor con un ojo o con el otro y usan su ojo bueno para alinear, ya que se enfoca en pequeños bamboleos y saltos y trata de hacerlos perfectos. Uso mi ojo izquierdo y miro el lado izquierdo de la llanta y el indicador izquierdo en el soporte de alineación. Creo que si ve mi otro video, responderá a su pregunta mejor de lo que lo acabo de hacer. Mire eso y avíseme si todavía tiene preguntas y estaré encantado de explicarle más. ¡Gracias de nuevo!

[@leazion8658]

Hola Jim como estas? Queria preguntarte si cuando armamos ruedas traseras los rayos del lado de la transmision deben ser mas cortos con respecto a los de la izquierda? Porque me ha pasado de armarlas con rayos todos iguales y al momento de aparaguarla debo dar mucha tension a los de la derecha. Poniendo mas cortos se soluciona ese problema? Muchas gracias y saludos desde Argentina

[@JimLangley1]

Gracias por mirar y la pregunta, Lea. Las longitudes de los radios que utilice dependen del diseño del buje y la llanta. Hay bujes y llantas en los que los radios tienen la misma longitud en ambos lados de la rueda. Sin embargo, muchas ruedas traseras usan radios más cortos en el lado derecho de la transmisión porque los engranajes/dientes del casete están en ese lado, lo que aleja los radios del lado izquierdo del punto central, lo que significa que son más largos y los radios del lado derecho son más cortos. Debido a que los rayos del lado derecho son más cortos y debido a que la llanta está desplazada hacia la derecha para centrarla sobre el eje, los rayos del lado derecho en las ruedas traseras suelen estar más apretados que los rayos del lado izquierdo. Eso es completamente normal en la mayoría de las ruedas. Los derechos se sentirán muy apretados y los izquierdos se sentirán mucho menos apretados. Lo importante es que la tensión sea suficiente para mantener la rueda recta y redonda. Sin embargo, la mayor parte del trabajo se está haciendo con los radios del lado derecho, los radios más ajustados. Ahora, este es el caso con la mayoría de las ruedas estándar. Encontrará en algunas ruedas personalizadas que usan cubos y llantas diseñadas para permitir radios de la misma longitud y muy cerca de la misma tensión en todos los radios, lados izquierdo y derecho. Perdón por la respuesta tan larga, pero es un poco complicado y quería explicar. Por favor házme saber si tienes otras preguntas. Tengo videos sobre cálculos de longitud de radios, medidores de tensión de radios, cómo construir ruedas y mucho más para que pueda disfrutar viendo más. ¡Gracias!

[@mrh0wler353]

What about spoke tension? I had a Park spoke tension tool 25 years ago. My newbie wheels lasted a long time with proper tension. Are there pros and cons to using the tool?

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and the comment! For spoke tension you either go by feel or you use a spoke tension meter like you had. I have another video on different types of truing stands, how to use them and the pros and cons. Here's a link to that video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHeboWShpKygpa8 Thanks again!

[@GgGg-p5g9k]

Good good❤❤❤

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks a lot for watching and the great comment!

[@janq-h8139]

Hello Jim, I would like to have a copy of the instructions, how do I go about getting them? I am grateful for all the information you give, I would like to try to make a similar stand. Kind regards from Norway.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching, janq-h, I'm glad you enjoyed the video! Please email me your email address and I will send a copy of the directions.

[@jameswarner8038]

This is great, will you use it as your primary stand?

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and I'm happy you like the Preciray, James! I really don't know if that'll happen or not. I'm so used to using Park truing stands I may never be able to adapt, but still I love having this and learning how it works.

[@cotswoldseeker5609]

Jim, what a fantastic video! I've just recently come across your youtube videos..they're wonderful :) Bicycle aficionados unite!! I have to ask a question about this wonderful truing stand- if you had to choose between this or a p&k lie..which would you go for? Assuming you've had access to a pk lie at some point. I'm thinking really in terms of ease of use and speeding up truing/building wheels. I use my trusty old park tool ts..but it has always seemed a bit of a cumbersome tool for the job! Especially given the lack of dishing in the stand. Thanks in advance and greetings from the UK.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks a lot for watching and great comment, Cotswold, I'm very happy you enjoyed the video and like my channel! I have used the P&K Lie, but I never fully understood how to get the most out of it. I found the instructions hard to follow and the correct setup eluded me. In a production wheel shop you need to keep building wheels and I ended up not using the P&K much because it was much faster to work with our Park truing stands. The P&K is a spectacular truing stand though: www.pklie.de/truing_stand.html It's a thing of beauty in design and materials. It's much smaller than the Preciray and easily sits on a bench. And, it has measuring devices they call "clocks." They work more like the Preciray's needles than the dial indicators you see on truing stands - much easier to read than dial indicators. The P&K and the Preciray are easier to use on a wheel that needs final truing. If you put in a super wobbly wheel, the wobbles will likely run off the rollers. So you might consider these stands for finishing wheels that are already relatively round and true. My concern with the P&K was not understanding how to get the most out of it and I always worried I was going to damage the "clocks," which seemed temperamental to me. Like on stopwatches there are reset buttons and sometimes they worked perfectly sometimes not. That was probably just my stand but still I worried about it. Also, I live near the ocean and I worried about the brass parts tarnishing, so I kept the stand under a plastic bag with silica packs in it to catch any moisture. As far as centering/dishing wheels goes in truing stands, the way I was taught to do it and the way I've always done it is to take a reading on wheels with a dishing gauge early in the wheel build process and make sure the rim is centered/dished. At this point, you put the wheel back in the stand and rest one of the indicators next to the rim to mark the centered rim position. From then on as you final true, round and tension the wheel, you just make sure that the rim stays in that same relationship to that indicator you set on the truing stand (I use the left one). Park truing stands do a good job showing the centered/dished position if they're adjusted correctly. However, a dishing gauge shows tighter tolerance so it ensures you get center near perfect. So, basically, I use the dishing tool to find center and to set center on Park truing stands. Thanks again for the awesome comment and I hope this is helpful! By the way in case you didn't see it already, I have another video I made recently all about using truing stands here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHeboWShpKygpa8

[@cotswoldseeker5609]

@@JimLangley1 What a fantastic and helpful reply Jim, thank you :) That;s very interesting as far as the dials/indicators on the P&K and Preciray go regarding major wobbles..I tried out gauges on my ts2.2, but gave up on them for this reason. They were only really useful in the final stages of truing- I guess I hoped that P&K or Preciray were the exception to this rule when it comes to gauges/indicators..but is seems not! My own wheel-building teacher- Bill Mould- said that he prefers the ts2.2 over all other stands..of any price. I can see why he said that now! Overall, it is still the most useful stand for wheel building/truing it seems. I still think the P&K and Preciray are awesome though! One day...if I'm ever in the position financially..I shall buy one :) On the topic of the Park Tool 2.2- mine is actually the 2.2p, the powder-coated version. In hindsight, I really should have bought the nickel chromed one- as there is a real design flaw with the powder-coated version: where the axle sits in the stand's arms and also where the caliper arm adjustment knob turns on the metal plate- the paint has worn off, to expose bare steel. Here in the UK, that's not a great idea..as we have quite a bit of humidity- which is a recipe for corrosion/rust over time. Have you ever had any such issues with the chromed version? I am thinking I might try and find one and sell on my powder-coated one..if there are still any chrome ones to be had! Many thanks Jim, all the best :)

[@JimLangley1]

@@cotswoldseeker5609 Thanks for letting me know about the issues with the powder coating. I hadn't considered that and have never had any issues with the all chrome Park truing stands. One of mine is about 40 years old and definitely looks a little worn, but I haven't had corrosion or rusting issues. Maybe you could keep yours protected by routinely covering the exposed metal with a thin coating of motor oil? Regarding the P&K Lie, I first saw it in person at one of the Hand Made Bicycles Shows here in the USA. Maybe it'll make an appearance at a bike show you can attend in the UK? Ideally you'd get a chance to look at it up close before buying it. It's a stunner of a tool, especially the dials. You can see why it costs what it does, a lot of fine materials were used in its construction and a lot of time into the design and refinement. But, for knocking out wheels, I agree with Bill Mould that the Park truing stands are the best choice - even though I find these more complicated stands fascinating😊.

[@cotswoldseeker5609]

@@JimLangley1 My pleasure Jim. Apologies for the late reply. Yep, I had already thought to cover the bare metal bits with oil..that will be my policy for the next few decades! I fully share your enthusiasm for these more complicated stands..even if the Park ones do a fine job. If I am ever in a position to get my hands on one..I will! I will certainly look out for the P&K Lie stand at a show if I can find one- great tip! I am really hoping that you will do an update video at some point about your longer term experience with the Preciray..I will be fascinated to see how you get on with it with more experience. In the meantime, HAPPY CYCLING :)

[@JimLangley1]

@@cotswoldseeker5609 thanks for the follow-up, Cotswold. Happy cycling to you, too!

[@georgemurrieta8190]

That's sweet where can regular guy get one or similar and for how much $$ thanks

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching George. I give the price for the stand in the video, it’s about $1,600 for a new one. Used I’ve heard of sales in the 400 - 1000 range. Here’s a copy and pasted previous comment of mine on where to get a new one: A few of you asked if it's possible to buy this stand. A friend on Facebook found this link to a distributor in the Netherlands www.veloplus.be/.../speci.../preciray/pre-b-485.html In order to buy one you would need to be in the bicycle business or visit a bicycle shop that buys from this supplier and have them order one for you. Otherwise, the stands do appear on eBay.com and other places from time to time used. Good luck!

[@davidburgess741]

Way more than all but the busiest professional wheel builder needs. It's high end functional jewelry. The gage points out every spoke responsible for deviation. Nothing like seat of the pants experience from pressure through the spoke key. Any mistakes made jump out at you with a gage though! Immediate feedback in both axis. Might be possible to pull this off with dial gauges too. I like the plastic rollers for each gage. Could be built into a keyhole shaped opening on a heavy steel table as well. Your videos have improved my wheel building. Especially the part about bending the spokes about the flanges with a mallet was helpful. Those things stay true! An old dog learned some new tricks!

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching, David! I'm delighted to hear that my wheel building tips have helped you improve your wheels, that's great. I like your idea to make a model of this stand that fits into a workbench with a feature to accept it. And I like the little plastic rollers, too. I've used dial indicators for truing. The ones P&K Lie use, which they call "clocks," work more like this Preciray's than the typical machinist dial indicators attached to a truing stand. I've tried all those setups and this one is the easiest to true by in my opinion. Thanks again!

[@cotswoldseeker5609]

Hey Jim! I was just wondering how you're getting on with this wonderful looking stand? Is it a worthy upgrade for those of us that have been working on park tool ts2.2 stands I wonder? I'm still on the lookout for a stand that is a bit more efficient than the park tool stands..for me, it is between the preciray, the PK Lie and an interesting looking stand called a 'centrimaster', if you've ever heard of it? An update on your experience with the preciray would be fab :) Best wishes from the UK!

[@JimLangley1]

Hey, thanks for checking back on the Preciray, cotswold. I’m now thinking that my used stand may have an issue with the rollers as it’s not giving the trueness and roundness results expected. Hopefully a brand new one would work perfectly. I used a P&K for a few wheels. I’ve only seen the Centrimaster online, never used one. But I would recommend trying before buying. The Park stands to me are much easier to use but then I learned on them. Maybe if I had learned on a P&K I would prefer it. The thing is that the setup and truing process is simple on a Park - just put the wheel in and true by eye and/or ear. Setting up stands with indicators is more time consuming and challenging plus truing by indicators is also an acquired skill that’s in my opinion more advanced than simple by eye/ear truing. So you need to decide what’s best for you. But if you haven’t tried the more complicated stands try to find one because I think pretty quickly you’ll be able to tell if you like using it or prefer your Park. Hope this is helpful. Let me know if you get one of the indicator stands how you like it. Thanks again and happy New Year!!

[@cotswoldseeker5609]

@@JimLangley1 Awesome reply, thanks Jim! It seems that you are another one of the many wheel-builders that I have known that have used the stands with the indicators, and then gone back to the good old trusty park ts :) It seems to me that it is a very individual thing, like all things bike mechanics..a good friend of mine who was a very well known bicycle mechanic here in the UK always used tone (i.e spoke plucking) to determine relative spoke tensions..I've tried this method, and it just doesn't suit me. I get on much better with a tensiometer, as I prefer a visual (numeric) representation of tension. Bearing this in mind, perhaps the indicator stands would suit me very well! But your advice to try one out first is very sensible, and I will try to do it. I would still be interested to know if yours is faulty or not. Thanks again Jim, have a great weekend 😀

[@JimLangley1]

@@cotswoldseeker5609 the main thing about the stands with indicators that's so different - and that can add significant time to every job whether it's just truing a wheel or building them - is that it takes extra time to setup the indicator stands to accept the wheel. Whereas with Park's elegantly simple design it's always super fast to insert the wheel and start truing. That gives the Park stand a huge advantage for anyone who needs to get the job done without any delays. But if time is not an issue, the indicator stands once setup allow additional feedback from the indicators or "clocks" as P&K refers to them. And if you're always working on the same spacing wheels then you would not need to setup the stand for each wheel but only for when you change to a differently spaced wheel. The interesting thing about the indicators is that they mean the user has to "read" the indicator. With a rim rubbing on Park's stand, it's simple to see what's happening and to remove the rub. With indicator stands you read the movement of the needles on the indicators/clocks. You then need to remember what that needle means in terms of how to make the correct adjustment. For me - since I've spent 50 years using Park stands - that little extra thought process to interpret what the needles are showing can become tiresome and even confusing versus sighting a gap or rub and knowing straight away without thinking what to do to fix it. Sorry for the long reply - just wanted to explain more since the indicator stands are expensive and hopefully these points will help in deciding if they're for you or not. Thanks again!!

[@cotswoldseeker5609]

@@JimLangley1 Hey Jim, I wrote you a reply a couple of days ago..but it seems to have disappeared for some reason! So, let's try again..thanks again for a fantastic and helpful reply; no need to apologise for it being a long one..in the research before (potential) purchase phase, the more info the better! Everything you said seems very sensible, it seems to me that the Park stands are the right tool for the job for most of us..the PK Lie stands seem to be geared towards professional wheelbuilders who are building (often with expensive bits and bobs,) more than truing, rather than hobbyists who are mainly dealing with truing and 'fettling.' For me, if I have built a wheel or it comes from a known source..I don't tend to look at radial true when making adjustments from time to time, only lateral and tension..with the '3d' stands, this would be problematic..as it seems you can't true without removing the tire..which adds significant (and unnecessary!) time to the whole process. I have also found that even and correct tension is more important to create a strong/durable wheel..these stands seemingly might pull you in the wrong direction..towards 'perfect' trueness, and away from the- IMHO- more important correct/even tension. As an aside, with my background in health research, with the Lie stand- the brass adjustment knobs are not a great idea..brass tends to be alloyed with lead, which is a 'heavy metal' which is quite destructive to the body..regular use of the brass knobs will lead to at least some absorption of lead into the body, which is never a good idea. For people that think this is nonsense, it is interesting to note that there have been many cases of lead poisoning with poor souls working in brass factories..so, for those using a Lie stand day in day out, wearing gloves might be quite sensible :) My turn to apologise for a long reply! I will still be really intrigued to see how you get on with the Preciray as time moves on..perhaps sorting out the indicators will make a real difference? Certainly, if I do see one for sale at a sensible price on the used market..I may well give it a go. Bye for now Jim, Tobias.

[@JimLangley1]

@@cotswoldseeker5609 I really appreciate you going to the trouble to reply again Tobias. I had no idea brass could be dangerous so many thanks for that. And you are absolutely right that the P&K and similar designs can tempt one to try to achieve perfect true, which is definitely a time consuming exercise and completely not necessary to build great wheels. You're right about having to remove the tire, too. If you buy a truing stand I look forward to learning which one you get and what you think of it. Happy wheel building!!

[@trancedance08]

I gotta get one of these.

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks a lot for watching and commenting!

[@godfellas483]

Fascinating...

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and the great comment!

[@roythersby6789]

the main problem is the body is hunching over and that gives you bad posture, i redesigned my jig to look straight at the gap setting bars and your hands fall naturally to adjust the nipples, i have two Var stands and both are worn out with use, i once saw that PRECIRAY stand in a competitors wheel business, and it looked inpressive, howeve he put it to one side, as he worked out he could true a rim fast the old way. after watching your video i made a pointing plate to use in another jig to true another style of wheel. have fun

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and sharing your opinion of the Preciray stand Roy, appreciate it.

[@sylvainmichaud2262]

From a time where ingenious people chose the features, material, etc, ... of the product to maximize usefulness, quality and durability, instead of accountants trying to maximize profits.

[@JimLangley1]

Yes, exactly, Sylvain. Thanks for watching and for making this point. It really is ingenious and was built to last.

[@bnp4292]

Why is this kind of truing stand not as popular as it should be?? Its like 10x easier!!!

[@JimLangley1]

You’re asking a great question. I think it’s because of the high price mostly. Thanks for watching and commenting!!

[@SPYRAGRAM]

We have one of those in our lbs, but is very poor condition ;(

[@JimLangley1]

That’s great you have one at the shop Tomasz. It sounds like it must have had some serious use over the years because they’re very ruggedly built! Thanks for watching and telling me about your Preciray. The make a nice display piece even if they’re not being used🙂

[@franserasmus2508]

Wil like to have one

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and commenting, Frans. A friend on Facebook found a wholesaler in Holland. Here's a link to the page showing the PreciRay www.veloplus.be/.../speci.../preciray/pre-b-485.html In order to buy one you would need to be in the bicycle business or visit a bicycle shop that buys from this supplier and have them order one for you. Otherwise, the stands do appear on eBay.com and other places from time to time used. Hope this helps.

[@franserasmus2508]

Tanks but it's to much in Rand south Africa

[@trophybikes6515]

Selling ours in Philadelphia PA! (see above from Trophy Bikes)

[@FuchsHorst]

One downside to this stand is that you must remove tires and tubes/sealant.

[@JimLangley1]

Yes that’s a good point. Thank you.

[@chrisallen2005]

If you want a wheel that is true the tire and tube must be removed therefore it is not a downside.

[@FuchsHorst]

@@chrisallen2005 you will quickly go out of business if that is your mindset in a shop

[@joggerino3284]

550 € on ebay

[@sloprun]

This is very informative. However, the background noise makes it very difficult to concentrate. Remember how libraries and classrooms were quite so auditors could listen to the instructor?

[@harryrowland4734]

Unnecessarily complicated and my back started to hurt just watching this. I've been using a VAR professional for the past 40+ years and can't sit down and work for more than a few minutes

[@JimLangley1]

Thanks for watching and sharing your experience Harry, appreciate it!

[@guythecookingsam2588]

It turned something simple into a complicated process. Money spent.