The Intel ARC B580 is Broken...on Older Systems

[@HardwareCanucks]

After spending a few days reading and responding to the comments I think its time to address a few things and perhaps clear up some confusion as well as offer a commitment to future testing, which is currently ongoing. - We should have done a better job of communicating the fact that ReBar was indeed enabled for all testing done between 3:13 and 10:31, so the lion's share of the video - The intent was to show how situations where ReBar being enabled doesn't necessarily lead to expected performance even on platforms that support ReBar (9th Gen in this case). - A clear mention, early in the video, should have been made about this being a situation where we are mixing baseline B580 requirements (ReBar & PCIe Gen 3) with hardware outside of Intel's official support as per their Quick Start Guide. Note this is due to the fact that official support is tied to ReBar, NOT a given platform (this comes direct from our conversations with Intel, as well a interviews given by Intel when Alchemist launched). Intel never officially supported ReBar on 9th Gen & earlier platforms, but mobo manufacturers backported it. - We will continually defend the rights of PC Gamers to upgrade their systems, regardless of how old they are, provided the platforms being discussed don't provide a substantial bottleneck for said upgrades. We genuinely feel that for many games at 1080p and most titles at 1440p, the 9600K & higher end 9th Gen CPUs still provide adequate CPU performance for GPUs of the B580's caliber. It doesn't sit well with us that Intel effectively cut those people out while their own motherboard partners were substantially more inclusive about ReBar support. This walled-garden approach for ReBar from Intel should never be celebrated, let alone used as a defense for the B580's high degree of performance variability on lower end or older CPUs. - HUB has published a video which validates our results, though using a Ryzen 5 2600X. Again, not officially supported by Intel but very much a CPU that's still got a lot of life left in it on a platform that's one of the best ever created (AM4). Finally, I want to mention that we've already started testing budget-focused Ryzen 3000 and Intel 10th Gen CPU with the B580 and initial results paint the same picture you've seen here with 9th Gen. This is a concern that could have been mentioned in this video. Whether or not this is due to excess driver overhead or something else, it looks like the B580 under-performs unless it is paired up with a much faster CPU. Again we are cross-validating everything and will only publish once we are 1000% confident in the results.

[@dvtye3378]

I think you have valid claims here that was backed up by good data. I don't agree with all of the points but I believe it to be rooted with good knowledge. Unfortunately I think that other members of the community have taken your claims and blown it way out of proportion. Blurring the information that we have and making significant claims without factoring in major considerations like graphical APIs as an example. It's too early to make claims with little data to support it. Charts like 9:06 are wonderful and prove that there is something happening. But many theories have come from it that aren't being supported by data or research that have accounted for either transient behavior or variables that have an effect on the test.

[@g10118]

@@dvtye3378 it's a problem that Intel never solved with the A770 either. This isn't something mysterious or new, it's something that should have been expected. If anything, members of the community are far more interested in sweeping the issue under the rug rather than honestly discussing long-standing issues with Intel's product.

[@srn7254]

let's not pretend fanboys actually care about protecting the consumer. the same people who gushed over B580 a week ago for its price have now suddenly adopted Jensen's good ole 'the more you buy' logic because gods forbid you're not pairing your budget GPU w/ the latest CPU out there.

[@JackHugeman]

@@dvtye3378 there definitely has been an issue with people in some tech spheres misrepresenting this like the issues (which are real) the B580 has with a 2600 (NOT SUPPORTED BY INTEL) or 3600 cpu are going to be happening on a 7700. people with decrepit cpus will want to avoid Battlemage, people with older but not totally ancient cpus will want to look carefully before they buy. personally battlemage fits my use case very well (have a fairly modern cpu intel 12th gen i7, but older GTX1660 GPU), the only thing holding me back from upgrading is waiting to see if a B770/780 is going to be launched.

[@frankpepplinkhuizen]

Could you investigate whether the problem is caused by a driver issue or an architectural design flaw? I was considering testing the B580 on Linux with different CPUs to evaluate its performance using Mesa and a recent kernel, particularly regarding overhead issues. This approach might help clarify whether the overhead stems from an inherent architectural limitation or if it’s something that could be resolved through better driver optimization. Perhaps this method could also provide insight into the overall severity of the problem.

[@Meddixi]

I think Intel was very verbose about the fact you need a newish system and REBAR is a must.

[@timiko4]

watch the video again and see there's a big part (2/3 of the video) mentioning performance on older CPU, but still with REBAR ON

[@Nat-yf6ff]

Watch the video The testing used REBAR, it's a driver overhead issue

[@HardwareCanucks]

Watch the video. 90% of the testing, except for a few minutes at the end, was done with ReBAR enabled. The issues aren't with rebar. Also, Intel never mentioned they had ported over their Alchemist memory subsystems entirely to Battlemage. Had there been modifications, its likely that the requirement would have been either minimized or removed entirely.

[@AshtonCoolman]

My Gigabyte Z390 aorus pro wifi motherboard supports ReBAR. It has a 9900k in it and I installed an Arc A380 yesterday. I had to enable ReBAR as well as disable CSM to get it to post, but it works and ReBAR is confirmed to be enabled in the driver and GPU-Z. It performs slightly better than my ancient GTX 980 in that system too.

[@syncmonism]

@@HardwareCanucks What we really need to know now is how well the B580 performs with better CPUs like the 5600, 7600, 12400F, and 13400F. The B580 absolutely needs to be able to perform well with CPUs like the 7600 and 13400F, but if it's bottlenecked significantly by a 5600 or 12400F, that would already be really bad. Sadly, all the work it takes to do that might not actually matter that much to very many people in the end if the B580 is never actually widely available for near MSRP.

[@jblps]

I feel like I'm colorblind looking at these charts, they are really confusing.

[@HardwareCanucks]

What would you suggest? An LTT approach?

[@NeVErseeNMeLikEDis]

Im doing u know how to read.?

[@jblps]

@@HardwareCanucks I got it. Just took a moment 😂😂doesn't help that the overlay hides the information at the bottom

[@matcarfer]

had to pause and think for a while how to interpret them, and still get confused

[@saulgoodman2018]

AT least it's not as bad as Gamers Nexus. Who test it on like 2- GPU's. And make everything a 5 point font.

[@JaySheridan]

Thank you for this. I'm in this exact upgrade situation, and appreciate someone checking this out. Yes, I've seen the "requirements," but I wonder how bad it could actually be if you don't meet them. Nobody ever checks these older systems. I would love to breathe just a little more life into my system for a couple hundred dollars, but i can never tell if it's actually worth it.

[@Oozaru85]

No offense, but if you still run Ryzen 2000 or older, its time to upgrade. Not just for performance increase, but also better compatibility with newer tech.

[@JaySheridan]

@Oozaru85 Sadly, I have more important things to spend my money on than a full PC replacement at the moment. It's only recently starting to show it's age, at least. I'll just have to pass on newer games for the time being.

[@Fsfan-x9v]

​@JaySheridan why as a society are we focused on creating so much Ewaste. For some uses a newer CPU should be totally unnecessary. In fact, some insanely old computers should be able to work well for light modern use cases. I agree that people should maybe consider era-appropiate upgrades, but I don't see a reason for current upgrade culture.

[@XxHorseshoeXx]

Anything ryzen 2000 or older will get cpu bound by mid level demand games. You probably can't upgrade this way sadly

[@Engiction]

​@Fsfan-x9v well that's just the thing. Newer components have different configurations to work better/faster, newer components get massive advertisment by the company, people buy the component company get money and more incentive to make the newest better and faster instead of backwards compatibility. TLDR ; Backwards compatibility doesn't make as much money, companies doesn't care

[@807800]

Wish you tested it on Ryzen 5 5600.

[@Sam-gn5ee]

Same

[@syncmonism]

Someone will do it. It will likely be much better, but it's hard to say how much better it will be. A lot of people running a 5600 will not have PCIe 4.0 available, which will still slow it down a little bit in some games as well.

[@AponTechy]

Same

[@DinoTrollerino]

@@syncmonism the 9600k and z390 chipset he used are pci-e 3.0

[@odetojamie]

I have a 5600 and pcie 3 and it runs fine ​@@syncmonism

[@RybieRy]

Are these issues also on 10th gen intel platforms? The listed supported CPU's are 10th and later. To avoid confusion, I wrote this comment before the title was changed.

[@HardwareCanucks]

The performance variability is something that caught even Intel by surprise, hence the statement they issued to us. In addition, we didn't test on 10th gen systems but will surely do so when new GPUs are launched this year.

[@RybieRy]

Looking forward to the re-test later this year then! The variability is definitely weird and something I hope will be addressed in a driver soon thanks to your report on the issue

[@HDRPC]

Yes

[@stevenwilliams6638]

You’re okay with 10th gen. Also Ryzen 3000 series (except for APU’s)

[@paulboyce8537]

Works but if you want APO you need DTT to run it and that is 11th and up.

[@ashtonlipscomb1295]

finally, someone has mentioned that you could just use ReBarUEFI for non-ReBar-supported hardware

[@HardwareCanucks]

That was the intent. Thanks for actually WATCHING before commenting. :)

[@Assmagnus]

Hopefully it was blind tested, on and off. Just because it's enabled doesn't mean it's working.

[@BigEightiesNewWave]

It is done in some form of emulation, or software? Is it as good as real thing? Diet Cherry Coke, vs THE REAL THING?There must be something at the hardware level, that a natively capable mobo uses, that has a driver for it, as part of the software install?

[@shade221]

@@BigEightiesNewWave pcie 2.0 and 3.0 support rebar at the hardware level. despite this, many motherboards don't have an option to enable it, and never got BIOS updates when rebar became popular as a feature. rebarUEFI is a patch to your motherboards UEFI firmware to force enable rebar upon every boot of your system.

[@haroldjayhoover5370]

The word "just" need not be used in your comment. However Intel could "just" throw some resources at the BIOS modding community to make it a bit easier. Then, you might be able to use the word "just".

[@Rockapotamus91]

Glad I got a 4060 instead of when everyone was saying go B580

[@michael_dob]

This is EXACTLY what happened with my father’s computer. The B580 on his i5 8400 was worse than his GTX 1660, especially on Baulders Gate. We assumed it was the drivers. Thanks for confirming that for us!

[@andredeklerk1069]

It's not the drivers, it's the hardware. Rebar support is a hardware feature, as is PCIE 3 vs 4.

[@davidchoi9010]

@@andredeklerk1069 Did you even watch the video? It's slow even with ReBar on an older system. It's a overhead issue. They need to fix this because future Intel GPUs will be faster and overhead will look worse.

[@andredeklerk1069]

@ It's an unsupported CPU, they don't need to fix jack. Read the specifications of product you buy before you buy them.

[@Daniel-ul8kr]

​@@andredeklerk1069the reason for 10th gen being a recommendation is because it's the minimum gen with guaranteed rebar support, it's not required, it's recommended and this is clearly a driver overhead issue, Intel drivers demand more of the CPU than either amd or Nvidia

[@Daniel-ul8kr]

​@@andredeklerk1069rebar is a feature of the pcie 3 standard, all these tests were done with rebar on, don't talk if you don't know

[@iBolski]

Good to know. I'm running on a B450M DS3H Gigabyte motherboard with my AMD Ryzen 5 3600. It does have Rebar support in the bios, so i'm wondering if this would still be a good pick up for me for my GTX-1660 that I have? I built the PC in 2020. For most of the games I have, it still plays as good as ever, but I do want to upgrade the GPU to get some more life out of it before I have to rebuild the entire system due to aging hardware (motherboard, CPU). I can upgrade to a better CPU, but I don't know if it would be worth it, along with going for the B580.

[@cecoeee]

Have b580 for 2 days now with b450 ryzen 3600 (coming from gtx 1060 6gb) - have tried a couple of games (alan wake 2 55-60 fps, cyberpunk 80 fps via internal benchmark, poe2 100fps ) all fhd high to ultra settings. Enabled REbar with bios update.. Im very happy so far with performance

[@frankpepplinkhuizen]

It just works on this board if you enable rebar - albeit 10% of performance are left on the table due to PCIe 3.0 …

[@shib5267]

better in every way

[@iBolski]

@@cecoeee I have Stalker 2 so it would be interesting to see how much better my performance would be with a B580. But thanks for the reply. Makes me feel better, but I might wait and see if someone does test Stalker 2 with the b580 as well on a setup similar to mine.

[@hrgamer7232]

I have ryzen 5 3600 and GTX 1050ti and a b550m motherboard should I upgrade to Intel arc b580

[@HuntaKiller91]

6700xt always look like the best deal for $199 used

[@dvornikovalexei]

Was on the market for some time for the best GPU under 300 that would work great for my old AM4 system. Plenty of used 6700xt and 3060Ti around 200 but i don't buy used. So i just bit the bullet and bought a 4060 for 280. It was 30$ cheaper than the 7600 here and I have yet to see a B580

[@nismo2070]

I'm glad that Intel is using your input on this issue! I am hopeful that they will be able to address this with a driver update. I have a 250 dollar b580 on a watchlist. I'm running a two gen old cpu (Ryzen 9 5900X) so I'm curious about what kind of performance I'll get with it. I'm also eyeballing the rx9070 when it's released next month. I'm done with Nvidia for now because they are going nuts with the pricing. A 2500 dollar gpu?!?!!?? COME ON MAN! We NEED more competition in this market!!

[@trackster11230]

I have it on a 5700X and it runs great.

[@TheRealSkeletor]

There's nothing wrong with a 5900X; that's what I'm using right now.

[@davidchoi9010]

It's similar to Alchemist. You need Zen 3 CPU. Older ones will have a subpar experience.

[@plonk420]

@@davidchoi9010 intel article 000091128 says Zen 2+500 series mobo (tho this article took me maybe 6-8 clicks to find). i'm hoping to pair it with a Zen2 APU+b450, so that'll be a small hit to perf with pcie 3 opposed to 4, not to mention sub-optimal CCX configuration and cache

[@Khai_1705]

@@TheRealSkeletor thanks man

[@MarioGoatse]

This really doesn't surprise me TBH. I bet they prioritised their drivers for later CPUs. I'd like too see a wider test with 10th, 11th, and 12th gen CPUs, alongside the same year Ryzens, just too see if there's a cut off, or if it affects them too

[@IntelArcTesting]

I haven’t watched video fully but I suspect someone finally discovered the driver overhead on arc. Cpu performance is more important for arc than it is for Nvidia or AMD. Edit: I was right. Have known this issue for a while now and was also present on Alchemist. Have spread some words around on the subreddit but not enough for some big KZbin channel to point it out and test it. Hopefully if this gets enough attention Intel can improve upon it. I personally have been very careful recommending Arc to users with anything lower end than a Ryzen 5 5600 or i5 12400f.

[@paulboyce8537]

I found this video to be clickbait. All the requirements are on the box. APO is 11th and up needing INTEL DTT.

[@AzariusR]

The problem the video is addressing is that if you decided to just plop in the B580 into your existing system and think it might be good as long as ReBAR is on, the performance is just weirdly going to be inconsistent.

[@AzariusR]

I was glad to just start with i5 12400 with my PC when i got my Arc A770 but yeah not everyone is as fortunate maybe.

[@grumpyoldgamerUK]

Really I would say the platform is more important than CPU as even the B450 with updated bios and rebar still has issues irrelevant of the AM4 CPU used Hence why Intel only recommends 500 and 600 series boards for AMD Might be due the promontory chip support on earlier gen AMD boards ?

[@davidborovsky2877]

@@paulboyce8537so fucking what? Driver overhead is a severe problem for ARC GPUs nontheless.

[@harbinger200]

Test would have made more sense if you tested with 10th gen Intel and Ryzen 3000.

[@ricardofranco4114]

I got this gpu for my older system, and damm, the performance wasn't there. I knew something was up. I have since sold my entire pc. Built a new one, same gpu but with a $400 am5 cpu !! So much for being budget !

[@GlimmyGOD]

Why didn't you compare the 9th gen Intel with a 10th gen part? 10th gen is the minimum cpu for Intel that they say officially supports rebar. Without doing this one could say this is only proving these rebar on older systems workarounds are faulty somehow.

[@regwatson2017]

Too many review sites rushed in and reviewed based on the 9800X3D and then told viewers that ARC was the best new thing since sliced bread - now these cards are sold out and have been back ordered and some people are going to find that that budget card is going to cost them a lot more to get the performance they were expecting. Props to Hardware Canucks for getting this info out so some can avoid throwing good money away. The Other reviewers are now scrambling to catch you up !

[@cerberus30700]

the only people who will be dissapointed are likely the numpties who went out and bought it and either have unsupported CPU's that don't even meet intels MINIMUM recommended requirements or those who play CPU intensive games at 1080p.. if you have a moderately capable CPU that meets Intels requirements and play at 1440p - I doubt you'll be disappointed - after all, Intel have been quite clear in their marketing - not their fault if you get dafties who choose to ignore this.

[@regwatson2017]

@@cerberus30700 To be fair to the "dafties" there were also no disclaimers I saw that there might be a chance that having an older CPU wouldn't also realise those gains and similar frame rates the review sites obtained and would cripple the cards. The review sites just reviewed with the most powerful CPU for games they could and didn't think to see if the results scaled well for older CPUs. As far as my memory goes this circumstance has never been so much of an issue in the past which is why the review sites didn't think to check. So maybe some of those review sites were "dafties" peddling their "misinformation" ! It was only Hardware Canucks that started putting that info out there by which time those desperate for a "budget upgrade" had already dived in financially.

[@sdfopsdmsdofjmp7863]

I'd love to see you make a video where you try to figure out exactly how weak a CPU has to be in order to cause these problems. Will (for example) a 3600, 3700x, 5600, 5700x3d run into these issues. If yes, which ones and in which games.

[@ChrisP872]

If the box lists 10th Gen Intel processor or newer as a MINIMUM SYSTEM REQUIREMENT, then there should be no hysteria if it performs poorly on 9th Gen or older Intel CPUs. It is useful information for people with older processors but the suggestion that the hardware is broken is not helpful and just plain wrong.

[@BeefOSRS]

Failure to read type situation. Bit clickbait imo

[@s1mph0ny]

There's basically no performance difference between a 9600k and a 10400f, and I'd expect the best from 8th and 9th gen perform better than the worst from comet lake on.

[@lActivel]

Having minimum CPU requirements for your GPU is crazy lmao. Intel isn't a serious company anymore

[@dvornikovalexei]

​@@lActivelThey haven't been since 2012. Getting demolished by Ryzen, Radeon and Nvidia. No wonder the fanboys cry so much.

[@Rythm101]

@lActivel I think it was due to it having to support rebar

[@JCC843]

Yea not trying to fanboy for Intel here BUT just go look at Intels page for B580, Intel CPU’s before 10th gen and AMD before 3000 series are NOT officially supported by B580.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Its broken even with ReBar enabled.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Recommend. Radeon RX 7000 also "recommends" AM4 / 10th Gen minimum.

[@mukilanmuthu]

​@@HardwareCanucksOr u can just test it with a 10th gen CPU to check whether the claims are true or not and update us with a community post or a separate video. I was looking forward to buying an Intel GPU but I am having second thoughts now.

[@iamspencerx]

Testing with unrecommended platforms isn't bad, a lot of people are on older platforms and wonder if they can still hold on to their platforms a while longer. Would I get a Intel card if I didn't have ReBar but knew I could get away with it? Absolutely.

[@dycedargselderbrother5353]

@@JCC843 It's KZbin. I haven't been able to post links in like a decade.

[@TexasFun]

You test a GPU on a CPU/motherboard that INTEL's website CLEARLY says IS NOT COMPATIBLE and say it is a problem? Sounds like a issue of bad testing and bad buyer decisions. Intel clearly states ARC requires a 10th gen or newer Intel CPU's. On AMD you need select 3000 series or 5000 series or newer desktop CPU's with SAM... This is just a B.S. test, trying to stir up a S*** storm while ignoring Intel ARC REQUIREMENTS!!! Are you trying to ruin your reputation on purpose? Please get real... testing incompatible parts and screaming bad GPU... is like yelling fire in a crowded room when there is no fire... is just not a good look for a "tech channel". The only red flag here is a tech channel doing a BAD TEST and crying about bad test results! LOL.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Where exactly do you see it isn't compatible? The system REQUIREMENT is straightforward: Full-size PCI Express 3.0 (or newer) x16 slot Resizable (Re-Size) BAR enabled Our system had both. Our system passed their DSA's Automatic System Support Detection. So what's your point? you seem to be mixing up Hardware Requirements with Supported Hardware Configurations.

[@TexasFun]

​@@HardwareCanucks look at the webpage for "Intel Arc Graphics - Desktop Quick Start Guide" and look under the paragraph "Supported Hardware Configurations". It is YOU that failed to research and follow the INTEL Supported Hardware configuration in your bad tests.

[@TexasFun]

@@HardwareCanucks Why have you not allowed or posted my reply to you... ??? Intel's webpage says ARC is supported on 10th gen and newer hardware. Why are you not allowing my posts where I cut and pasted the relevant info directly from Intel? Bad Test = gets Bad results = Bad content. Ah, now you let it post, ... LOL... BAD TEST with unsupported hardware = Bad results... It is sad you cannot be honest and admit the mistake.

[@jozefrockatansky1588]

​@@HardwareCanucksYou can just admit you're wrong and messed up rather than doubling down you know. 10th gen Intel or Ryzen 3000 REQUIRED. It's right there on their site.

[@schlotzkovich6909]

Damn dude, relax! Not everybody is gonna check the website before buying. Shit's hard to get as it is, most people are hitting BUY the moment they see inventory. Shit, I didn't know the limitation till I came across this video and all of you screaming in the comments like maniacs. I wanted one for my 8700k/1070 oldie but obviously that wouldn't work out well for me. I'm happy to know it's not a clear cut purchase beforehand. Yall are going crazy in the comments! It's not like they said it's garbage.

[@ChengHorn9]

The TL;DR I'm getting is that this card is best suited for an entry level DDR5 gaming build. In that case it seems to be a killer value.

[@RyTrapp0]

You would but just as well with a 6700XT, and with significantly fewer issues

[@ChengHorn9]

@@RyTrapp0 sure, but the 6000 amd cards are getting harder to find unless you buy used, which not everyone is comfortable with.

[@Assmagnus]

Nah man just use a CPU younger than 7 years old.

[@fugitive6549]

@@RyTrapp0 6700xt has worse RT performance and Xess is much better than FSR.

[@DariusOutdoors]

@@RyTrapp0 Sure you could but you now have more options? Isn't that the point? Besides, Arc is being developed mostly to be integrated into Notebook APUs. And with Intel + Arc, Intel finally has some competition against AMD + Radeon APUs. The dedicated GPUs are a cool side effect for us. They could've also decided not to do that in order to save cost.

[@MrSmitheroons]

Thanks for looking into this! Your video covers a lot of ground Hardware Unboxed's first follow-up didn't, which was a bit confusing when watching their video first. Though TBH the journey through this video was a bit of an Odyssey -- not straight-forward to understand, IMO! That said, especially with Hardware Unboxed's second follow-up video testing several more CPUs, it's clear the B580 is more CPU-heavy to run than a 4060, which they tested against. So, once again, thank you for breaking this story! I'm watching the ads on this again and leaving a like and a comment to boost it in the algorithm. Really important that perf of a value GPU scales with an overall value-priced system!

[@nmlearnerforever]

This was quite insightful and different but much needed level of benchmarking than other tech media outlets. Can you do a similar test against a bit more recent hardware platforms that have stopped being supported like the 5600 AM4 and i5 12400 from Intel? I think that will provide us a better insight before making the purchase.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Sure. Maybe when the next gen NVIDIA and AMD cards roll out we'll take another look.

[@sokotroko5488]

6:44 the fact that they are aware of the issue gives me hope. They could have said it was not an issue but just how it is.

[@gauravbisht4504]

This type of practical use case tests is needed more often nowadays.

[@Skotty64081]

This is the content I was asking in various comment threads for someone to make (sort of). Thanks for covering this. I want Intel to succeed with their GPUs, but I was very concerned that people would buy this and try to put it older systems where it might not work (my concern was specifically about resizable bar and no one really having a clear understanding of what will happen in older systems without it).

[@loganmedia1142]

I suppose people should actually look at the requirements before they buy something, because Intel does indicate that this combination is not supported.

[@NootNoot.]

In the 'The B580 Falls Apart' section, have you observed more 'modern' CPU archs like Intel's 12-14th gen, or AMD's Zen3-4 close the gap a bit more without moving all the way to the 9800X3D? Also speaking of the title of the video, have they fixed OneAPI for the B580 on Blender?

[@HardwareCanucks]

OneAPI is still not fixed. Its an ongoing issue.

[@H8RMAKR_]

Glad you showed this. I was going to pair with a 1700x. Saved me 300 bucks and a headache

[@XX-121]

you're better off going with a radeon i recently got an XFX RX 6800 for $300 and it's a beast.

[@_abzy]

I'd just get a 5700X3D, way better for gaming and should just drop into your current board (with a BIOS update)

[@mahockey3]

​@@XX-121 lol shit ray-tracing

[@XX-121]

@@mahockey3 i rock it RTX-OFF you aren't running ray tracing on a $300 nvidia or intel card either

[@mahockey3]

@XX-121 yes you can. The B580 and 4060ti both have very usable ray-tracing. Ray-tracing sucking on them is a myth from the 20- series low-end GPUs.

[@AshtonCoolman]

This is right up my alley because I spent an hour getting an Arc A380 working on my old 9900K+ Gigabyte Z390 system yesterday. I had to enable ReBAR as well as disable CSM to get it to post. The CSM part was what I initially missed and it was frustrating. So far, the Arc is working well on the Z390 board and I'm looking forward to getting a B580 to upgrade it to.

[@HardwareCanucks]

The CSM issue has been around since SSDs were introduced and isn't just with ARC cards. Though it is an odd hiccup...

[@JustSomeGuy009]

It's not going to work well because rebar is NOT officially supported on a 9900K no matter what your motherboard BIOS tells you. Intel makes that VERY clear. Don't expect it to work correctly.

[@AshtonCoolman]

@@JustSomeGuy009 it works fine though. I have 5600x+B550 system that I tested with as well. ReBAR is fully enabled and works as it should. The 5600X and 9900K perform within a few percent of each other for gaming. They score very close in benchmarks with the A380 which confirmed for me that all is well.

[@ChrisP872]

@@AshtonCoolman That's great that it works. Being a bit out of spec sometimes works fine but if it doesn't for other setups it doesn't mean the hardware or its drivers are "broken" as some are suggesting.

[@alexlia4153]

Thank you for your work. When you initially mentioned testing on older system in the B580 review I didn't think much of it, like what can be said except that rebar is a must? I did know Arc relied on CPU a lot but before this I never realised just how much it did. Its very unfortunate this is brought up so late after launch, but better late than never

[@Verpal]

Although I wish Intel ARK is a bit more transparent about it, Intel clearly stated 10th gen and after with rebar is a hard requirement on the B580 box, Intel never promise anything about backported rebar.

[@davidchoi9010]

He tested with ReBar, but it's still much slower if you have an older CPU. Driver overhead.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Actually, Intel's recommended specs are directly tied to ReBar, not the CPU generation. You see, Intel never officially supported ReBar on 9th Gen, though all of their motherboard partners backported ReBar to Z390 boards. Hence, they cannot say that 9th gen is compatible since they technically never announced ReBar support.

[@Verpal]

@@HardwareCanucks Oh I see, I just go off with the description Intel used on B580 box, if that's the case Intel written the support description rather inconsistently.

[@Oozaru85]

​@@HardwareCanucksThey arent recommended specs. They are requirements. Dude, really? Spreading bs now?

[@Maxkraft19]

You guys know the minmum requirment is 10th gen right. It's not a recommendation. It's the minimum and as far I know they are not going to support older platforms. This isn't a bug. It was a design decision. They didn't make video cards when the 9600 was new and they don't have the resources to focus on 6 year old systems.

[@HardwareCanucks]

The requirements are: Full-size PCI Express 3.0 (or newer) x16 slot Resizable (Re-Size) BAR enabled If a motherboard has ReBar backported like ours did, it technically supports it. The ReBar section is more of an informational item rather than it factoring into the broken nature of ARC performance on an older system.

[@Maxkraft19]

@@HardwareCanucks I have an 580. It list the requirements on the box as 10th gen and resizable bar. 9th gen is not supported. They are not going to fix this. It's not a bug. If you want warn people as to why it's not supported go ahead. But it's not going to change. They don't have the time or money to go that far back. AMD and Nvidia had divers before BAR was a thing. So they just added support. That's why early game support sucked. Intel made the decision to only support system that met there minimum requirements. There is nothing odd about this.

[@devilmikey00]

@@Maxkraft19 No, they RECOMMEND 10th gen. It is not a REQUIREMENT. Those words mean different things. Also, they RECOMMEND 10th gen because it is the first generation guaranteed to have ReBar. Jesus christ these comments are insane. Also, your first sentence "I have an 580" Grammar aside, you're just defending your purchase and taking this video as a personal attack. You are not coming at this from an honest place and we both know it. You do not owe the mega corp your fealty because you gave them your cash. Intel will be just fine without your shield. Also, Intel LITERALLY RESPONDED TO THEIR CONCERNS AND SAYS THEY ARE LOOKING INTO IT BECAUSE IT SHOULDN'T BE DOING THIS. Holy fuck dude. WATCH THE VIDEO!

[@generalarl]

@@devilmikey00are you taking these comments personally? It looks like you snapped in the comment section her😂

[@Tracenji]

@@devilmikey00 the box for the Intel B580 actually says "Minimum System Requirements" meaning 10th gen, AMD 3000 or newer is REQUIRED source: techpowerup "iVadim UNBOX" on youtube, you can see JayzTwoCents' b550 box in his review and while blurry, you can tell it says Requirements

[@Ale-ch7xx]

Okay, go test it with the 5950x or 5800x3d on a B450, a520, a320, B350, or x370. Lets be 100% sure it is nothing with the PCIE 3.0. B580 is a completely different architecture from AMD which is a completely different architecture from Nvidia

[@SmarterGaming]

"Intel Arc Graphics - Desktop Quick Start Guide" and states under the paragraph "Supported Hardware Configurations" what is SUPPORTED. Why test things NOT on the supported hardware list?

[@Ale-ch7xx]

@@SmarterGaming Good job liking your comment. Let me completely tear this apart. "Motherboard Full-size PCI Express 3.0 (or newer) x16 slot" AMD Ryzen™ 5000 Series Processors There you go, son. It is on the supported list.

[@SmarterGaming]

@@Ale-ch7xx Testing a "SUPPORTED CPU" on motherboards that ARE NOT "SUPPORTED" is the opposite of why Intel published a "Intel Arc Graphics - Desktop Quick Start Guide" and states in the section called "Supported Hardware Configurations" what IS SUPPORTED! There you go (you are not my father and calling me son when I may be much older than you, is a very insulting and arrogant thing to do)... So, if it is NOT ON THE SUPPORTED HARDWARE LIST as the motherboards before the AMD 500 series are NOT listed, they would NOT BE SUPPORTED!!! LMAO.... DAD... LOL...

[@Ale-ch7xx]

@@SmarterGaming Liking your own comment again, son. AMD 500 Series.. Guess what falls under that? AMD A520 chipset that has PCIE 3.0 A520 is basically B450 with a different name, son. You're talking to an engineer. Hope that you're having a good time, son.

[@SmarterGaming]

@Ale-ch7xx yep just b/c your condescending

[@mikek92]

I ordered an A770 to replace a 1660 ti card in a HTPC build that also has Rift S VR. Had to send it right back because Intel said 'No VR support on ANY Intel cards." Wife's happy though...

[@TypeErrorDubs]

Good find on the GPU utilization issue with slower CPUs. The commentary about ReBAR is off the mark IMO because it’s explicitly documented as unsupported. Yes, the most uninformed DIYer could miss this, but whose fault is that… Also, does 1440p testing change that utilization at all? I presume a bit since the bottleneck should move substantially to the GPU?

[@HardwareCanucks]

Can you let me know where it is explicitly documented? At 10:55 we brought up Intel's official statement about it which is documented as: "....must be enabled for *optimal* performance". It says nothing about unsupported.

[@TypeErrorDubs]

@@HardwareCanucks you’re right that my wording of “unsupported” is wrong. I meant what you said here which is that ReBAR has always been discussed openly as “basically required”. Now perhaps they don’t actually document that as openly as they should. This I believe is your point? Is the idea to catch them out on this lack of transparent documentation, or is it to shine a brighter light on how ReBAR is “basically required”? Calling the card broken when run without ReBAR is a roundabout way of doing that, no?

[@dycedargselderbrother5353]

@@HardwareCanucks It's not really incongruous, though. It still works, just suboptimally, as demonstrated. It's down to hairsplitting how large of a scope "suboptimal" is.

[@adrianconstantin1132]

For dual monitors I had a big issue with Combine Monitors feature in the drivers (Eyefinity equivalent) where the feature does not work with Intel Arc (I still have A770) if my monitors need to use Flipped orientation. Flipped orientation is needed for some monitors with a limited viewing angle for the LCD panel. I had a 2-months long ticket about this on Intel support forum, with no success, despite 2 driver updates released in between. The equivalent Eyefinity feature on AMD cards had no problem with this and worked as expected

[@kuyache2]

Yeah it sucks for upgraders that are still using old platforms specially ones without proper REBAR support. All three gpu manufacturers are expecting everyone to at least have pcie gen 4 and rebar. If you have 9th gen and older or Ryzen 2000 and older just get a powerful older used cards like the RTX 2070super or 5700XT (seems to be below 200 now). I believe those GTX 1080's are now priced around 100-120$. As for me I need a new pc with at least Core i5 13500 or Ryzen 8600G/7600 so it can properly run the future 12gb/16gb dgpu with mesh shaders that I am dreaming of purchasing.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Actually we showed a way to potentially bypass the ReBar limitation. Sadly we didn't have time to test it.

[@dycedargselderbrother5353]

This has become less of a thing with today's long hardware and operating system cycles, but back in the day, say before 2006, you basically never bought anything about 2-3 years newer than your base system due to technological incompatibilities. Even though it's less common these days, every once in a while there is a hard technological separation.

[@RationalLlama]

I bought an Intel arc b580 for my brother. His PC is quite old with an i7 7700k. He was having a lot of performance issues and graphical bugs. So I gave him my 3060 ti and am using the arc GPU on my newer system with rebar natively. My brother will need to upgrade his motherboard and cpu before he can use the arc.

[@Oozaru85]

Didnt read the requirements then. Well, thats on you I guess. Next time read the description on the product page before buying. Requirements are also printed on the cards box.

[@RationalLlama]

@Oozaru85 well I knew the GPU would require rebar. It's just that my brother's motherboard didn't support it natively so I used an unofficial mod to mod rebar in. The GPU detected the rebar as well. Only problem is that Intel GPUs don't really work as well with lower end cpus as Nvidia does. That's why my brother is getting better performance with my 3060 ti.

[@Oozaru85]

@RationalLlama No, not just rebar. The requirements also say that anything below a Ryzen 3000 or Intel 10th gen CPU is not supported.

[@RationalLlama]

@@Oozaru85 well that's because those processors are paired with motherboards that do not support rebar out of the box. Everything is related to rebar. I figured that since I was able to get rebar working on the older motherboard, the arc should be able to run just fine. The games were playable but there was a lot of stuttering and cpu bottleneck. Nvidia just works better with older cpus, regardless of rebar.

[@Oozaru85]

@@RationalLlama Doesnt matter. The requirements clearly mention both rebar as well as newer CPUs. The card doesnt support older CPUs, even with rebar. If CPUs didnt matter, the requirements wouldnt even mention them. If you ignore half of the requirements just because you assume stuff, thats still on you. Thats not Intels fault.

[@hyakinthos_0902]

this definitely needs a deeper investigation with combination of amd and intel CPUS

[@everestcomputer]

its not broken, the systems are just too old for what it requires.

[@StarsAtNight1]

Then this card is DOA if they don't know their target audience.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Sorry, what? Older systems are this card's target market! Intel themselves showed several slides with the B580's performance vs the GTX 1060 and GTX 1660.

[@everestcomputer]

@@HardwareCanucks they have stated they require rebar and theyre electrically limited to x8. they are not for old systems, but for more recent budget systems. what were the system specs for that comparison? probably not something old, other than the gpu.

[@StiekemeHenk]

Drivers, older games and rebar cause major performance issues. The problems depend on the system. Newer systems should perform well.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Yes. Exactly. But Intel themselves highlighted that these would excel as replacements for GTX 1060 / 1660 series cards. So....

[@StiekemeHenk]

​@@HardwareCanucksI'm absolutely dying by the amount of commenters that didn't watch the video. Feel sorry for you

[@syncmonism]

@@HardwareCanucks I'd be really curious to know how good of a CPU you need to really avoid any signfiicant bottlenecks. If you need a 5600 or 12400F, that would be pretty bad. If you need a 7600 or 13400F, that would be really bad, because most people looking to buy a B580 definitely have something worse than a 7600 or 13400F.

[@penonton4260]

at the end of 2024 there was a youtuber who tested A380 to play old games that still use DirectX 9 and 10. It turns out that Intel Arc has made a lot of progress and is quite smooth. But until 2025 there has been no B580 testing for old games that still use DirectX 9 and 10

[@user-suzie1818]

@@syncmonism For the past two years, the A770 had noticeable underperformance with 12400/5600 compared to 14900/7800X3D. B580 has not improved much in terms of driver overhead.

[@fredsorre6605]

Isn't this exactly as expected though as Intel still have the same broken memory controller on Battlemage they actually apparently found the bug half way during the designed phase of Battlemage a bug where the controller would stall for a few NS after reading a Data chunk and since Battlemage was just re-using Alchemist's memory controller design they knew the already manufactured Alchemists chips were effed apparently Raja pushed to continue without overhauling it completely thinking they could fix it on the driver level which they spent many months on as ARC Alchemist sat in their warehouses missing the mining boom and ending up releasing with issue still on it the only way they could alleviate the issue is by feeding it data constantly and only when REBAR is enabled will that be possible only until Celestial is out will Intel GPU's be usable on older systems as they apparently overhauled the memory controller there.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Those are some really interesting observations and ones that I've heard as well but in the end they're hearsay rather than the truth. Like I said in the video, I don't think the ReBar conversation is the one that needs to happen. Its what happens when ReBar is enabled on an older platform and performance still ends up tanking in a bunch of titles whereas other competing GPUs perform just fine.

[@fredsorre6605]

@@HardwareCanucks its really hard to deny rumors when its been spot on each time especially with the whole Intel GPU's doesn't work right without REBAR just because they buried it and would not admit to producing such a product killing mistake doesn't mean its not true.

[@pandamikep2460]

@HardwareCanucks I appreciate your concern but this video feels like misinformation. Resizable bar isnt so much motherboard support but its CPU support. intel didnt support rebar until 10th gen, and AMD didnt support it till 3000 series. Just because a newer motherboard that supports the older cpus with their newer bios updates "technically" support it, its been proven by many other reviewers in recent years that doesnt mean anything. Please do this test again on CPUs that were designed to run rebar, because now you have a comment section in uproar all because intel made it pretty clear about rebar, but the problem i think is motherboard vendors putting out support for rebar on cpus that dont officially support it. And leads to confusion because someone with a 9th gen might see the button in their motherboard and conclude they have support. I think this video needs a follow up video to clarify what CPUs truly support rebar and what do not.

[@CrashPilot1000]

Well I get what you are saying (see my other comment, because I enabled rezbar now on my 9900k+rx5700xt - LOL) he showed that there is a fps difference with intel ARGH, so it must be *somewhat* working..

[@YuokoII]

@@CrashPilot1000 while it can somewhat work doesn't mean its working as intended.

[@LemmingOverlord]

Agreed. HC is basically creating drama over running a brand new GPU architecture. ReBAR support came officially with Gen 10. PCIe 4.0 was introduced at Gen 11, I believe. How does criticism make sense? "We ran a GPU on a hacked BIOS, lacking PCIe 4.0 support, and it was rubbish"?

[@CrashPilot1000]

@@LemmingOverlord It makes sense I know some ppl with intel 9 series and below, so this is a valid warning!

[@Oceanborn712]

I JUST bought one after seeing it available at MSRP for the first time since launch here in Germany and neighboring countries. Very excited for this card.

[@StarsAtNight1]

I was worried about the pcie3 x8 interface, where there would be a 5 to 15% performance drop over pcie 4.0. So maybe it still is the issue although you state it isn't

[@G_WOLF]

Something must be going on if other youtubers aren't having the same issue

[@HardwareCanucks]

They are. HUB has validated our results in their latest video. Wait, that means its a conspiracy now right?

[@G_WOLF]

@@HardwareCanucks definitely needs to be investigated but the B580 is the first hope for inexpensive builds in a long time. It's still intel second-gen, Until we find all the good and bad cpus for it Im not calling it a bust

[@jozefrockatansky1588]

10th gen Intel, Ryzen 3000 plus required.

[@tresnugget]

I know rebar is enabled but i think it still might be an issue with rebar. I seem to remember when rebar was new and older systems were getting rebar bios support that benchmarks were showing that these non-native platforms weren't getting the performance improvements that the platforms with native rebar support were seeing.

[@HardwareCanucks]

If it was a generalized issue with Rebar on our system we would have seen similar drop-offs with the other GPUs, especially something as powerful as the RX 6700 XT. We didn't. The problem only popped up with the B580.

[@loganmedia1142]

@@HardwareCanucks You shouldn't actually see any drop because the processor simply doesn't support it. So the effect on the B580 is definitely odd, but it isn't because ReBAR is doing anything for the other GPUs when it is on. In fact the Counterstrike numbers show this. Turning ReBAR off actually gets better performance, but only a tiny difference. That means that for some reason some games suddenly run slow on the B580 even though ReBAR isn't doing anything.

[@soadek1]

​@@HardwareCanucksprobably because the B580 is the only GPU from the list that actually requires rebar to function the way it was intended to, the other cards don't.

[@john_enx]

Thanks! You just claimed my sub, also thanks for including the competition to B580 both AMD and Nvidia! Is the impact the same with 1400p too?

[@michaelsoutherland3023]

Try this with a 10th gen intel i3 10100 with REBAR ON.

[@mehraanakbarii]

In CPU intensive games, the two main factors that make the RTX 4060 perform better than the Intel Arc B580 are: 1. Larger L2 Cache: When there is more L2 cache, there is faster access to data, and the latency or delay between the processor and the GPU is reduced. This is crucial in CPU intensive games, as the CPU needs to access more data, and a larger cache can speed up these processes. 2. Lower Bandwidth and Reduced CPU Load: When the GPU has lower bandwidth, the CPU has less strain to handle. In this case, the GPU requires less bandwidth, allowing the CPU to access data more quickly. This helps reduce the CPU bottleneck and results in better performance in games that are more dependent on the CPU. As a result, these two factors make the RTX 4060 perform better in CPU intensive games compared to the Intel Arc B580, because the lower bandwidth and larger cache help the CPU process data faster and create less of a bottleneck.

[@MrSmokinDragon]

ITT: The comment-section is full of Intel fan-fappers. The Battlemage series of GPUs have exteme CPU overhead, as is only looking good with the latest CPUs (like 9800x3d). The kind of CPUs that one would use such a card with hampers it immensely. Watch HUB lastest video on this, where they test with Ryzen 9000, 7000, 5000, 3000 and 2000 series CPUs, and the drop in performance is massive...

[@truemyth3148]

Love these older system reviews, love to see more of these.

[@zNaYuz]

Testing B580 on older is a better approach. But I think you push it a bit too far which may not not draw a correct picture. If people are stuck using 8th or 9th gen platform, they probably don't have the money for a new B580 as well. Because if they have that money. they could just bought some good value 2nd hand card long before. This card is more suitable for people with newer budget cpu like 10105f, 12100f,12400f pair with 1060, 1650, 1660, 5600,...

[@thevindictive6145]

It should not be an issue in the first place. If other GPUs can do it, why not the B580. Its a budget GPU meant for budget buyers.

[@zNaYuz]

@@thevindictive6145 No doubt B580 don't work very well on 8th and 9th gen platform. But the people using those platforms are probably not the people having the money or the will to buy this card anyway. So this benchmark maybe less relevant. Instead, a bit newer budget cpu like 10-12th gen i3, i5 are more relevant to have a benchmark.

[@CurlCascade]

Nitpick on your graphs. Can you offset the two sets of data for the same GPU so they're not right on top of each other? That way it's much easier to see the performance drop between the two CPUs. Did you test other settings as well as just 1080p, RT off, Ultra and no upscaling? I'm assuming the issue persists across settings choices, but without any data that's just baseless speculation.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Yeah we are rapidly running into limitations in our graphing program vs our intents. So we are actively looking to move towards different apps

[@krazyfrog]

6:55 the Warhammer chart was the most interesting for me. Ignoring the Intel card for a while, even the 6700XT can only run at up to 69ish fps using the 9600K even though we know it can get at least 80ish fps as seen with the 4060. This doesn't make sense since we know Nvidia drivers usually have greater CPU overhead than AMD drivers. So the 9600K is performing worse even with the AMD cards, and not just the Intel B650. I wonder what would happen if the 9600K was swapped out for an AMD CPU, something like a 1700X, 2600, or the 3600.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Its broken. Its not clickbait. ;)

[@hoobiwoobi]

Maybe some problems with the game optimisation, 'cuz it's probably the only title where 6700XT performed worse than 4060.

[@YHomeYCar]

Have a 14700k but not even considering a high-end GPU. Still rocking the iGPU over a year waiting for something that makes financial sense (originally $300-400) for the performance I need in the games I play. I can't be alone and an unintended target for Intel. I really don't think the mid-range card manufacturers are targeting people with 5-10 year old computers.

[@Snerual22]

Amazing content as usual. Stuff like this and your cooler tests make you the most underrated tech KZbinr out there imo.

[@fredsas12]

While I understand the sentiment, I'm pretty sure these older systems will bottleneck this GPU, making it an upgrade in name only. The original Zen for instance; the 1800X bottlenecked a GTX-1080 GPU and above. These boards (AM4) can get a BIOS update to enable ReBar. Anything older than that with either AMD or Intel is a waste for this GPU, CPU wise.

[@jaakanshorter]

I'm glad you were honest and open about reporting issues you ran into with Intel. It seems like many reviewers haven't done that or are not open about it.

[@Kongolox]

Your overreating, rebar has been around for more than 5 years! hardly a new technology. And no, not everyone needs to be aware about this only users with gen 9 or earlier.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Actually in their latest video HUB proved that this can be a major issue even on the Ryzen 2000-series.

[@SmarterGaming]

@@HardwareCanucks "Intel Arc Graphics - Desktop Quick Start Guide" and states under the paragraph "Supported Hardware Configurations" what is SUPPORTED. Intel 9th gen and AMD Ryzen 2000 series are NOT on the SUPPORTED HARDWARE LIST! Just admit you made a mistake and did a bad test, got bad results.

[@leofolf7460]

Hmm, could it be that the PCIe bandwidth is not big enough? Think about it, the GPU is running at PCIe 4.0 x8 and older systems use PCIe 3.0.... meaning that the GPU is running at PCIe 3.0 X8.... 🤔 interesting. I wonder how it would work if you can cripple pcie gen slot and change it to PCIe 3.0.

[@SamOnKBD]

Interesting idea. I suspect this is not the case, but I could be wrong and this could be tested. Hardware Unboxed showed in some tests from an earlier video that 4060ti 8GB (which is 8x lanes) performed worse in situtations where VRAM capacity exceeded on PCIe 3 than PCIe 4. When you are spilling over VRAM you need to deload and transfer in new assets which makes you "bus limited" in the moment, so the stuttering was worse. Since B580 has 12GB I don't think this should be an issue and the card should be able to move everything it needs into VRAM, and I don't think the slower bus caused much performance degradation in general play for the 4060ti other than that. This seems more of a pure CPU bind, where it is taking very long to submit compute jobs to the GPU/make drawcalls or something of that nature due to how the drivers are written, since the GPU utilization is very low in those scenarios. I also don't remember if the "bus bottleneck" showed up as lower GPU utilization as well, could be something to look for

[@schwazernebe]

the 4060 with a 5600 performed better than a b580 with a am5 5 7600, tested by hardware unboxed yesterday. so no, its simply b580 issue

[@plonk420]

i still want one, tho i'll be putting it on a Zen 2 APU (for now. maaaaaybe i'll get a 9600 or something eventually since i have an A620 board sitting around unloved, but that'll be a bigger cost to get running since i'll need more DDR5). also shoutouts from another canuck living abroad as well as coming from the Hardware Unboxed video that gave you attribution to this interesting development...!

[@roach362]

There's literally a list of supported platforms and 9th gen isn't on it. I don't see how this is any different to complaining you aren't getting your full RAM speeds when the platform doesn't support it.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Platform recommendations are tied to Intel's official ReBar support. 8th and 9th Gen platforms had ReBar backported in many cases but Intel refused to ever grant official status to those platforms.

[@ChrisP872]

@@HardwareCanucks Still not a valid argument. Intel lists CPU requirements and doesn't just say, must have REBAR or SAM.

[@jozefrockatansky1588]

He's being very dishonest and unfortunately a lot of people in his comments are believing him and assuming the card is the issue, and not his use of a CPU that is below the requirements, as clearly stated by Intel.

[@g10118]

​@@jozefrockatansky1588issue is reproducible with 5600x and 1400f. It's the exact same driver overhead issue that people have know about for a long time with the A770 and similar. Intel has a serious driver overhead problem. Stop spamming nonsense you clueless Arc fanboy.

[@renatoramos8834]

​@@HardwareCanucksREQUIREMENT, NOT RECOMENDATION. And only gen 10+ has rebar, no ifs and/or butts

[@NaDE3991]

Thanks for information! But it would be nicer, when you separate the two cpus to two charts to see the difference, then we can easier to see. Your charts are so confused to follow.

[@Karti200]

I love clickbaiting titles of the videos... Oh look, an modern GPU that has printed on the box that it is recommended to pair with modern base that supprts ReBAR - is working bad without ReBAR no offense but who with anything below 8th Gen iCore / 3rd gen Ryzen - buys modern GPUs? Na but srlsy i am dead serious.

[@stillgaming]

offense offense offense

[@TheStoff1975]

The same people that are looking at buying a RTX 4060 which is the direct competitor to this card. Although I agree that this isn't a ground breaking find, I still think it's good of them to do the testing and "running the numbers". The more information we consumers have the better in my opinion.

[@ranjitmandal1612]

😮

[@CO8848_2]

$250 gpu to pair with 3rd gen ryzen, makes sense to me

[@Nat-yf6ff]

Did you bother watching the video? They used a 9600K, on a motherboard that has REBAR It's a driver overhead problem, not REBAR. Which they only show no-REBAR after 10 minutes

[@4ryan42]

In the video description, "Review unit provided free of charge by ????. This video is sponsored by ????." Did someone forget to make an edit to the template text?

[@walter274]

Thanks. I think checking CPUs from the 10th, 11th, and 12th gen intel as we as 3rd and 5th gen ryzen is worth doing. Saying that it's bad on old systems, is usefull, but how old is old?

[@majicalpandatech]

3rd gen ryzen competed with 9th gen intel....but I agree maybe something like 10th or 5th gen would be interesting that is sorta the 2020 era

[@sivlap]

The A series had the same prob so what's the big reveal? Intel states quite clearly what the requirements are.

[@HardwareCanucks]

The problem is performance vis a vis the competition is abysmal at times WITH REBAR ENABLED. ;)

[@Oozaru85]

​@@HardwareCanucksOn old CPUs that arent supported? Yeah, no shit. What a revelation...

[@cyluk358]

@@Oozaru85 Except it has overhead on even a 7800X3D. You’ve been all over this mans comment section being a fanboy instead of being thankful that’s he’s called out facts that this is now an inferior product opposed to the competition.

[@m4nc1n1]

Yeah click bate. Intel should dump these guys. They may have the subs, but that is because people are just unaware of how bad they suck. I don't follow these fools; it just popped up in my feed.

[@Oozaru85]

@cyluk358 I never said it doesnt have overhead. But he claims the GPU is broken on older systems. Its not broken. Its not meant to be used on old systems. He also lied in another comment claiming that Intel is "recommending" newer CPUs. Which is not true. They arent recommending them. They are a hard requirement. Also, this GPU is intended for 1440p. Because of the CPU "bottleneck". Or did no one notice how much better it performed on higher res compared to the competition?

[@loganmedia1142]

I haven't seen this Intel marketing suggesting it is targeted at people with those systems. But then the entire premise that a cheaper card would only be for people replacing a card on an older system is just wrong.

[@Velerios]

Yes: let's use an unsupported spec and then be shocked that the system runs underwhelmingly... (and yes, they said intel 10th gen or ryzen zen2/3000 cpus are required) So you are complaining that intel does not support unsupported specs for an upgrade because they specifically said they need rebar; really you can't make this up. 🙄

[@alrecks619]

he's trying to make a point on not buying the gpu if you have a rather ancient system, though.

[@ChrisP872]

@@alrecks619 It'd be fine if that was true but sadly it isn't. The point he's making is that Intel GPUs are "broken" on older systems. They aren't broken in any way. They don't SUPPORT older systems. If you have older than 10th Gen Intel or 3000 Ryzen you shouldn't use Intel ARC. Some people are out of spec and getting decent performance but that's a risk they are taking.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Again, ReBar is available on many 8th & 9th Gen systems. Intel lists ReBar as a requirement. We're testing based on Intel's requirements....and we tested WITH REBAR ON.

[@jozefrockatansky1588]

​​@@HardwareCanucksYes, but Intel are also very clear that as well as rebar, you NEED an Intel 10th gen or a Ryzen 3000 series CPU Why are you being so dishonest and focusing only on rebar as if that's the be all end all, the CPU matters too. It's like moaning that a 3 pin plug wont fit in a 2 pin socket.

[@Oozaru85]

​@@jozefrockatansky1588This channel is a frickin joke... Cant take these guys seriously anymore.

[@Bigdog302V8]

Quite informative here. I was considering the B580 for 2 older systems, both with with a AMD 5800x Ryzen 7 processor and with 32 gb of ram but one with a x470 motherboard and another with a x570 motherboard. the x470 with pcie 3.0 and the x570 with pcie 4.0. looks like i will be going with good used graphics cards, my x570 with a gtx 1080 ti i happen to have already and the yet to be acquired gtx 1070 for the other rig. at least the 1070 can be had dirt cheap now or maybe a 1080. long gone are the days of solid and affordable mid range graphics cards from AMD and Nvidia.

[@erinw6120]

Picked up a RX 7600 before Christmas for about $270. Working fine with an FX-8370, even if it's a PCIe 2.0 board. Single problem I had was my beefy, still rock-solid, Zalman 850HP PSU couldn't pump 270W on a single 12V connection and triggered OCP. Been smooth after dropping in a Corsair RM750.

[@davidchoi9010]

5800X will be fine on Intel ARC. It's the older pre Zen 3 systems that suffer.

[@NomNom12899]

While I completely understand why you tested them in 1080p the B580 doesn't do as well in 1080p as it does in 1440p the higher it's resolution, the better it performs.

[@g10118]

That's because of driver overhead.

[@b0ne91]

CPU limited games run into CPU bottlenecks with 6C chips from 7 years ago that lack hyperthreading. More driver overhead on some games give bad results. Not sure what people are on about regarding ReBar. You clearly stated that ReBar was enabled via BIOS update with that board.

[@HardwareCanucks]

I think its an attention span thing. They see a title, assume its about ReBar (which it isn't), and comment. Also, we were actually surprised by how well the 9600K stood up in a lot of situations. Its still got some legs.

[@syncmonism]

And AMD GPUs are the kings of having low CPU overhead. The 6700 XT is turning out to be a legendary graphics card at this point. If you bought one two or more years ago, you are getting a ton of mileage out of it even with a very old CPU and motherboard, such as a first gen Ryzen or an even older Intel CPU. I believe it was first available for as low as 320 USD two years ago, and it was an amazing value back then. I have seen it as low as 260 brand new over the past two months, but only in the US.

[@SikSlayer]

@@HardwareCanucks frankly, I think it's some people can't handle their world view concerning the B580 being questioned. The consensus has generally been very positive, and anything that's contrary to that won't be taken well by some. Great job making this video. 👍🏾

[@Retro-Iron11]

@@HardwareCanucks I think you've just read the room wrong. The b580 is not for older outdated slow systems, it's for those who are sick of the market that nvidia/ati have created. The sales and availability back that up. You can buy whatever nvidia/ati you want right now. Good luck finding a b580 as they are sold out everywhere.

[@jonny4036]

@@HardwareCanucks Shouldn't be surprising. Intel has been stuck making minor upgrades for a long good while now. Honestly though systems can be weird regardless of vendor. I upgraded my brothers computer from a 3600x to a 5800x and from an AMD RX 580 to an RX 6700. In most games he played he said it didn't feel like much of a difference. In a few instances he thought performance was actually worse. Even though AMD doesn't require Rebar I enabled Rebar on his system and he got a huge performance boost. Even more effective was the 1 percent lows. His frame rates all stabilized and he wasn't getting any significant drops.

[@dimitrirouge5568]

for 50nuts ... I ll not take any trouble on my ass ... I ll take the GPU I know working fine.

[@Paelmoon]

They clearly communicated this wouldn't work on old systems. It's a more than reasonable requirement when you are paying so little for 12gb of vram on a decently powerful card.

[@HardwareCanucks]

Where was this clearly communicated? They mentioned ReBar support, which rolled out with 10th gen but was backported to 9th Gen platfoms. *We tested with ReBar Enabled*. Intel themselves showed it as a replacement for the GTX 1060 in an older system.

[@plonk420]

@@HardwareCanucks this was communicated if you watched allllll the pre-NDA lift coverage (i don't even watch Nvidia or AMD pre-Review date anymore at least as of the 30/40/6000/7000 series, especially when they stopped PCB sneak peeks for the Buildzoids out there; it's just that Tom Petersen is just great to listen to). HOWEVER, that said, it took quite a few attempts to find the requirements in an article on the Intel website, just now, article 000091128. also, i doubt the average buyer would have caught it, either. it was kind of a casual, quick mention

[@Tracenji]

@@HardwareCanucks did you test with a 10th gen? if not then i recommend you do, because ReBar was backported to 9th gen by MOTHERBOARD vendors, and we all know how they can be, i think ReBar isn't working properly due to lack of official intel/amd CPU support

[@Lauren_C]

The problem is it’s exactly the price point that makes it an appealing option for older systems. That said, I doubt it’s going to be a major issue in the end, as I’d bet most folks have moved on to the 3060 and similar over the past couple years post-shortages.

[@tooprood]

​@@HardwareCanucks In the minimum requirements clearly stating 10th gen intel or zen 2?

[@undertone2472]

Luckily no one can guy one to put in their old PC because i can't find one at retail at all. 😂

[@HardwareCanucks]

Well you could buy the Gunnir models at insane markups. ;)

[@SinStarfire]

Paper Launch

[@DSDSDS1235]

considering the amount of comments about your remark wrt rebar you did a very poor job of highlighting the spotty availability of rebar in older systems lol

[@HardwareCanucks]

Its right there in the video at 12:18. Other than that....I think we need to approach videos under the assumption that people will read the title, assume the most basic thing and then address that in the first 20 seconds.

[@DSDSDS1235]

@ just put a chart of official rebar support by platform/chipset on screen and remark if its unofficial or spotty on that platform

[@SinStarfire]

Or maybe the commenters are just wrong and annoying people who have no clue of anything about PC hardware? Surely that couldn't be the case.

[@dvornikovalexei]

ReBar is supported even on A320 boards and on old chips like Ryzen 3100. It's not the poster's fault for toxic uneducated kids whining

[@thevindictive6145]

I am running a 10400 i5. I needed this info. Thanks. Generally I was worried about PCIE3 compatibility. Intel seems to be failing for selling a card that was meant for the mid to lower tier gamers.

[@Nanerbeet]

This sets a new low-point for the Gamestream Media. It's astounding that you've tested a CPU without resize bar support on a motherboard using an unproven backport and got mixed results. I would suggest you try and reproduce these anomalies on Intel 10th gen or AMD Ryzen 3000 series, otherwise you're just spreading misinformation.

[@HardwareCanucks]

I think your comment continues a low bar we've seen in quite a few other comments here. I mention no less than three times in the video that our motherboard has ReBar enabled.

[@Nanerbeet]

@@HardwareCanucks Understood, but you're ignoring the part where the CPU doesn't support it. So it's unproven.

[@Nanerbeet]

​@@HardwareCanucks ​ And viewers mentioned dozens of times that the 9th gen memory controller doesn't support it in hardware. Had it ever occurred to you maybe the so called "driver overhead" might even be a software compatibility fallback due to the fact that it was backported?

[@dcrdlgy]

Boy you really need to go back to the drawing board on those graphs. Really unclear.

[@buudhabear]

Why was 1440p not tested?

[@HardwareCanucks]

Time constraints.

[@OHWACHACHA]

@@HardwareCanucks I'd love to see 1440p being tested.

[@racerex340]

@@OHWACHACHA When you have a driver overhead / CPU performance issue as your bottleneck like we see here, as long as Rebar is functional ,1440p should show significantly less of a hit than 1080p. I would still expect there to be some performance differences going from even Ryzen 3600 or 10400 at 1440p to something like a 5700/5800X3D, 7600X, or 13700K/14700K, but you should be seeing just a few percentage points difference at 1440p, even less at 4K.

[@OHWACHACHA]

@racerex340 That's pretty much expected. I may have missed the cause the ruckus about the B850 on older systems. It should be expected that it can do so much on a 9th gen. At that point, you need to upgrade your CPU. I'm sure Intel has released so much microcode on that generation that the performance is a lot worse than its initial release.

[@cryptoclyps5049]

What you might have done was post the percent decrease in performance between older/newer cpus and then compare that to other GPU's. That's the only figure that really matters here.

[@davidchoi9010]

To the reviewer: Do not let the others discourage you. You did a good job, and actually a service. B580 made good progress, but it still has a long way to go. If you do not point out the problems, how will they progress? Shining a light on the driver overhead issue will be a good thing. People are too biased and upset of the AMD/Nvidia price situation they are absolutely desperate for Intel to succeed, even if it's not completely honest. This is REAL journalism, not the cookie cutter rinse and repeat from others.

[@RamonInNZ]

But the premis is badly put together seeing Intel had already advised GPU was not for older processor architecture......

[@grumpyoldgamerUK]

Real journalism would be investigating why Intel has the requirements, not proving what Intel already stated would happen if you use unsupported hardware

[@pandamikep2460]

resizable bar isnt supported on intel 9th gen, can gurantee it will work just fine on intel 10th gen or newer. hardware unboxed did a similar test with ryzen 2600, also another system not capable of running Rebar... that didnt come until ryzen 3000 series... regardless of what the motherboard may be able to do, the CPU has to be supported to get the most out of it. and intel themselves RECOMMENDS resizable bar... so predictable bad performance for ignoring the instructions...

[@grumpyoldgamerUK]

@pandamikep2460 Ryzen 1000 and 2000 series only had PCie Gen 3 support too

[@grandtheftautogaming1581]

It clearly says on the box only 10th gen and ryzen 3000 and newer are supported. of course the product doesn't work as intended on potato cpu's

[@DinoTrollerino]

intresting stuff, sounds like driver overhead issues, Nvidia had this issue a few years back aswell. Other than that CPUs improved a LOT over the last few years, my i9 9900k really struggles to get more than 60-70FPS in some of the new cpu heavy games with a 4070 super in 1440p

[@RetroBerner]

It's not broken. You're using it on unsupported hardware.

[@jayfangRSA]

Great material, but I think one significant error. It's probably NOT the drivers. Tom Petersen from Intel itemised the new hardware blocks that Battlemage introduced over Alchemist. Number of these blocks were about increasing draw dispatch rate and offloading compute from drivers. He never said what HW Battlemage was still missing vs competitors. If a driver does not have the HW to utilise, would be impossible to optimise as much as competitors that have the HW to hand. In short - do not buy with expectation of getting a driver fix for this class of issue.

[@SuAside83]

Interesting, but a bit disappointed you didn't test it with a recent-ish low tier CPU, like a AMD 5600 or 5600X. Or i5-12400 / i5-12400F. I suspect those users are way more likely to be looking for a GPU upgrade than a Intel i5-9600K.

[@emken0206]

Not really i think most ryzen 5000 or Intel 12th gen users already have a Nvidia 30X0 or Radeon 6XX0 gpu or better and for them there isnt much point in upgrading anyway

[@dvornikovalexei]

Most of those people already are running a 3060/4060/6700xt. Nobody gonna move from those to a B580

[@Telescuffle]

I'm using a 5600x with a 1080. So testing this issue with the 5600 would be very helpful.

[@jozefrockatansky1588]

​@@TelescuffleI just came from using it with my 5600, no issues. The reason it has issues in this video is because they are using a CPU below the requirements. With your CPU, and ReBar enabled, the card will work great.

[@g10118]

​@@jozefrockatansky1588false, has been reproduced on the 5600 too. It isn't as 'bad' but the driver overhead is still present.

[@TrantaLocked]

Flashbacks to my 7970M which had serious utilization issues for a long time. Not to mention that Sager laptop not being built to last.

[@pandalife_gaming]

This seems like pretty irresponsible reporting just overall. So performance drops off with a 6 year old system that is not on the recommended/compatible hardware list. In some cases, significantly. That doesn't make it "broken". Notice the 4060 also absolutely tanks in Spider-Man with a 9600k, is the 4060 "broken"? Because that's arguably a much bigger story if so. And even the "broken" results aren't that bad...most of those are around 50ish fps at ultra. It's not great but that's playable. Turn down like 2 settings and you're there. So apparently "broken" means "it still works fine but performance is less than it could be". But that isn't a catchy of a title huh? Doesn't get as many clicks. Did we try a higher end 9th gen to alleviate the cpu bottleneck? Nope. Did we attempt a 12+ gen to see how it works on a new platform? Nope. Maybe a 3000 or 5000 series Ryzen? Nope. You got 1 set of results and found yourself a clickbaity title and picture and you're off.

[@drewnewby]

I came here just to read rabid Intel fans losing it in the comments. Paper launch / MSRP, 6650 XT performance at over $300 USD, assuming you have a new system. A used 3070 or 6700 XT runs circles around it for less. TAPs marketing blitz is over, but they're still spamming every comment section.

[@awepizza]

This channel really fell off. 10 gen is recommended and old as hell systems wont take advantage of this card. The title is so sensationalist it sounds like the card is unusable, scaring potential costumers on a so NEEDED third player in the GPU field.

[@ich_16]

sure bud

[@dycedargselderbrother5353]

10th gen is about five years old. That's not bad in terms of validation from a non-incumbent vendor. We already have similar problems with slightly older systems such as not supporting TPM or not being able to boot with newer video cards due to UEFI problems.

[@K0braKing]

Well maybe those consumers using older cpus should be scared away from buying an intel card if their upgrade needs are better served by an nvidia or an amd card Like yeah we need a third player in the market, but reviewers should still point out actual issues with this gpu

[@dycedargselderbrother5353]

@@K0braKing The framing is the problem. This product line was designed around certain assumptions that were, in the opinion of many, clearly communicated. Reviewers not paying attention and being caught flat-footed by using the product in an unsupported (or "suboptimal") manner does not make it "broken". I agree that there isn't enough attention on this matter, and it's for reasons I've long criticized reviewers for, namely only using one or two CPUs for testing, but the fault lies in reviewers not paying attention and blindly copy/pasting their review process the same way every time for the sake of expediency. You can even explain the pitfalls of doing this to them and they'll snidely tell you that only using the fastest possible CPU with the bleeding edge platform is completely comprehensive with no downsides whatsoever. Except when there are problems in which case it's somebody else's fault.

[@davidchoi9010]

Pointing out a "value" card not working well on older systems has nothing to do with channel messing up.

[@teddp]

Having a 10th gen series Intel CPU an i9 10850 k on an MSI Z 490-A PRO, with a RTX 3070, a combination that has the resizable bar option in the bios, and since I have a first-hand experience with it I can say this, the recyclable bar support for this generation of CPUs was an afterthought and very badly implemented. I faced stability issues under very specific loads with the recyclable bar enabled. With this experience I conclude that I wouldn't want to use the resizable bar with anything less than a 12th Gen system. And that could explain why the B580 struggles with those older systems.

[@Boorock70]

Finally, a realistic B580 review and benchmarks injected with 6700 XT. B580 is the new RX 6700 XT with lower FPS, lower power consumption & better RT... but cheaper ! - Gr8 work, guys !👍

[@TheRealSkeletor]

Closer to the RX 7600 than the 6700 XT. The RX 7600 is like the new 6700 XT with lower FPS, lower power consumption & better RT. Just slightly less (but faster) VRAM.

[@andredeklerk1069]

What's realistic about sticking a GPU in a system it explicitly does not support?

[@ThaexakaMavro]

not cheaper and the b580 is isn't 250$ most of the place. Only cheaper on paper. Rt on those card is too slow anyways so RT is irrelevant. Maybe XeSS2 is plus other than that no.

[@Sphinx-19]

not only is the re-bar killing intel but also the fact that most of the ppl on steam arent even playing new games and the 1650 is still in like 4th place on steam hw survey

[@dvornikovalexei]

My 4060 is at 3rd and the only reason being it's available plenty 😂 I got one for 279 after trying to find a 6700xt for months

[@Sphinx-19]

@@dvornikovalexei yea i was gonna get a 4060 but by the time my money was together, they were gone so now i just wait for the right deal

[@dvornikovalexei]

@@Sphinx-19 I upgraded from a 1650 Super and it's a massive upgrade even with my Ryzen 3100😋

[@hrgamer7232]

I have ryzen 5 3600 and gtx 1050ti with b550m motherboard should i upgrade to intel arc b580

[@Poseidonios_Bellerophon]

If you have the gigabyte b550m aorus elite then yes, your mobo supports resiZebar. In fact every, b550 mobo support this function.

[@hrgamer7232]

@Poseidonios_Bellerophon yes I have gigabyte b550m d3sh motherboard

[@Poseidonios_Bellerophon]

@@hrgamer7232 I am not worrying about your mobo, your cpu will be the main problem here, if you can afford it you should buy a used 5800x3d and I am saying used due to the fact that they are out of production nowadays. If you don't want that then a new 5700x3d will be your next best option (after the intel b580).

[@jozefrockatansky1588]

All of your stuff is supported, you'll be fine, but I'd look into upgrading your CPU at some point, 5600x can be had really cheap these days.

[@Mahiii778]

​@@hrgamer7232 oi don't you maniac Ryzen 5 3600 with intel b580? You won't even have a good upgrade jesus you will wait year's to upgrade cpu? So you can use full potential of intel b580 after year's don't do that

[@_Lassic_]

I used a 6700xt with an Intel 4770 for about a year before I bought the 7800x3d. It honestly wasn't even that bad. It ran Elden Ring at High settings at 47+fps, with the cpu at about 50% all the time. Now its hard to even wake up the 7800x3d.

[@ChuwiEnjoyer]

Great find, we need a deep dive into this with more CPUs!

[@Lonewolf_121]

Intel, nvidia and amd have all stated the generations of cpu that they support resizable bar on. For Intel cpus it's 10th gen, 9th gen never officially supported it and some motherboard manufacturers just used a workaround to kinda force it in so the chance of it working properly it sketch at best. So yeah... Publicly available information ignored