The Key Difference Between Logos and Logic | Jonathan Pageau

[@fakename3208]

“What is it aimed at” Which is why “sin” can be defined as “missing the mark”. This was super helpful for me, thank you.

[@KillerKabel]

When I was trying to write down my understanding of logos I also compared it to logic. My thought was that logic is "dead" and unchanging whereas logos is very much a living thing.

[@garyboulton7524]

I get what you mean by logic being dead, as it is not dynamic or changing. But to say it is dead is wrong, because Logic flows from the nature of God. Would you agree?

[@Deserrto]

I've been wondering about this distinction for a while, thanks

[@Stopinvadingmyhardware]

Logos is a Ancient Greek term used to describe a formalized method of constructing a groundwork of building a priori reasoning. Logic was based this formalization of the process and the Greeks used harmonics through numerical notation using the same alphabet they used to formalize it. They were able to plain text a message while saying something else.

[@glof2553]

Logos is the order of the universe, and logic is a distilled and usable form of that order. That was my understanding.

[@cnote3598]

Bingo

[@nrg937]

Logic is not derived from the order of the universe. Logic is the space of all possible worlds, the pure structure of all intelligibilities; it is infinitely richer than the order of our world. The order of the universe must conform to logic, but logic need not conform to the order of the universe. We cannot say that the universe has such and such a structure because we are limited in such assessments by the structure of our minds. To do this one must postulate that the structure of our minds have been constructed by a God who established a harmony between the structure of the universe and the structure of the human mind. One may do this, but only at a high philosophical price.

[@cnote3598]

@@nrg937 I said logos IS the order of the the universe, not derived. You are clearly having a conversation with yourself, so enjoy. Just an fyi, brevity is the soul of wit. You have no wit

[@nrg937]

@@cnote3598 Anyone can say the universe is such and such, or the universe is ordered in such and such a way. But the question is one of quid juris, by what epistemic right does one have in claiming to have access to the structure or order of the universe? One cannot legitimately ground their knowledge claims about the order of the universe by claiming that the order of the universe is ordered in such a way that it's order can be known. This would only be taking for granted what is sought to be accounted for. It is bad metaphysics. Your claim seems to be that the order of the universe is Logos and that this is known through the Logos; do you not see how unsafisfactory this is? Finally, there is a place for wit and there is a place for nuance; it is the witless one who seeks wit in place of wisdom and brevity in place of specificity.

[@cnote3598]

@@nrg937 I'm even gonna read that shit lol. The irony of you playing into exactly what I called you out for is rich

[@matthewgroves7451]

What about Logos being personal?

[@superstitiousstoic6810]

Is it kind of like form and function.

[@void3985]

famous design motto: "form follows function"

[@L4sz10]

Thisvseems deeply related to the affordances that John Vervaeke talks about when he discusses that meaning is related to the affordances of things. Like the "graspableness" of a cup is neither part of the cup, nor part of the human that grasps it. It is a relation between the two, and through that we can get participatory knowing (at lest that is how I understand it).

[@cliffordduhh45]

That goes in line with Jonathan’s brother’s book: The Language of Creation by Matthieu Pageau. The situation of man is in between the heavens and the earth, bringing the mystery of the heavens down into tangibility, giving it form; while also raising creation up into purpose, giving it meaning. Maybe mankind is, in a microcosmic sense, an affordance that is shared between (yet not qualitatively belonging to) unbound heavenly propose (logos) and the grounded, tangible, purposeless unconscious creation below. Purposeless in the sense that it is incomplete without its connection to the divine purpose through that human affordance.

[@emmashalliker6862]

I didn't get that from this video at all.

[@mariog1490]

Affordance comes from a psychologist named James Gibbson, who postulated objects don’t only have representational content, but also properties of action.

[@heldivapanjaitan947]

The purpose of language is you are able to communicate

[@kelvinlord8452]

Can logos be said to be logic that is appropriately aligned with the greatest balance of all that is truly good .

[@SmiteTVnet]

From what I understand, Logic is the formalized process and processes graspable by the imagination that point us toward not only the top but also to the foothills that build to the peak of mount Logos

[@kelvinlord8452]

Best wishes

[@metaspacecrownedbytime4579]

Logos is the reality of meaning. Mathematics is a way of perceiving reality via a key method of perception, a codified reality for perception not reality itself. Eg: computer code is not the computer, it is one of many possible languages to understamd and manipulate electricity within the hardware.

[@tennisracket-bk8eh]

very insightful, thank you

[@heldivapanjaitan947]

The reason for the hammer also its aim, the reaosn why it exist. There is something with the world where its purpose laden at the first level.

[@BalthasarCarduelis]

Logic is to Logos as Critique is to Crisis.

[@bestgameralive1]

Im curious if gematria is non canon :/ cuz its really neat

[@nrg937]

Gematria is non-canonical demonism. Most non-canonical demonisms are neat! If your heresy isn't neat then you're just not trying hard enough. Who wants to compromise their soul for something stale and simple? Complacent, comformist consumers

[@cnote3598]

Technology is man's way of organizing the universe without having to experience it. That quote may be attributed to mother Theresa Tech = logic Experience = logos

[@nrg937]

Technology is an amalgam of the greek words techne and logos first coined by Aristotle. See Heidegger's Question Concerning Technology. JP's answer here is really a Christianized Heideggerianism (he even uses the hammer example from Being and Time), but (intelligent) Christians see Heidegger as a Christianized Atheist - so Ouroboros wins!

[@cnote3598]

@@nrg937 .. enough of the mumbo jumbo dude. My comment is pretty easy to understand. Btw.. I AM a Christian Atheist too. So cope with that.

[@MissPopuri]

Well, The Internet is literally a world where you can see everything at any time without experiencing it. A more stable reading would be complete collapse of time into an eternal space that is frozen into moments that need to be reconciled. If you read Dante’s Inferno, the center of hell is frozen and cannot be escaped by the Devil himself.

[@GrimGriz]

I'd have said "Logic can't be made flesh."

[@KizaWittaker]

Sure it can

[@joseph5521]

This is a Hellenistic definition of logos. The Christian Logos is a Person, It is personal, it is the living incarnate Son of God ie God Himself

[@strugglingathome]

Christ is that Logos. Rather, that Logos is Christ. It’s symbolic.

[@metaspacecrownedbytime4579]

What is a person?

[@michaelbasileos]

He isn't talking about the Divine Logos. He's just defining the word "logos". Christ is the Logos of all Logoi. If Pageau was asked to define the Divine Logos or THE Logos, he would've mentioned Christ.

[@astrol4b]

He existed before being incarnated

[@davidpate6095]

I would say that Logos has mystery, something logic lacks and can't comprehend.

[@cnote3598]

Wrong . Logos has purpose. Meaning.

[@davidpate6095]

@@cnote3598 I would agree. But do you understand Logos 100 percent? That’s what I meant by mystery. Logos is not logical, there is an element of mystery that requires faith.

[@minakoaino3917]

Sounds like you're describing the Lingam (parashiva sitting in the parashakti), is that wrong other than that its connected to the hindu perspective more broadly.

[@NoFuture396]

Well Λόγος means logic, but also speech(word) and reason(cognition), all facets of the same concept. This linguistic connection is fundamental in understanding what each of the above precisely stands for; Cicero had to make a distinction between Eloquentia and Sapientia, regarding those who lack the former as useless and those who lack the latter as dangerous. If one is thinking in terms of Λόγος though, it is evident that you cannot really have one without the other. Similarly the futility of seeking the truth in abstraction has been proven in a sense through the failure of Logic to generate all Mathematics. So the Truth one might say is irreducible, something evident to those with a moderate background in mathematics. I want to seize this opportunity to pose a question, for I do not know the proper channel to direct it. I have watched mister Peterson and you analyze old Testament and new meticulously, explaining how it still remains relevant and serves as a map towards the Truth of God, a map one might say certain factions have inadvertently or not been trying to obscure or destroy. However it seems to me that a crucial piece of the map is missing. Would you say that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism or could one claim that it is in fact the culmination of Hellenic thought and Art, the true Renaissance and the fuel that fed the fire of Greco-Roman Glory for thousands of years, encoded in the symbolic wealth/arsenal of the language in which it is written? Is love and mercy a quality to be found in Judaism or in Homer and Sophocles?

[@nrg937]

Grothendiek's work in category theory contains some of the most satanic thoughts the human mind has ever acheived

[@garyboulton7524]

I am not responding to Pageau. Logic is not a created thing, instead it is the order of the universe, which flows from the nature of God. All things in the universe must adhere to Logic. Human Logos is our ability to interact with that Logic.

[@mikail4541]

So logic is a part of God's uncreated energies (eternal principles)?

[@garyboulton7524]

@@mikail4541 I wouldn't take it that far. First of all, I'm not Eastern Orthodox so I don't necessarily believe in the energies of God. But that's beside the point. I think Logic is an affect of Gods being and created order. So that Logic is basically the metaphysical frame by which all created things abide. Basically, all things must adhere to the logical principles and rules, because nothing can exist outside of God having either created it or "producing" it.

[@niccoloaurelius1587]

He should really not be answering this question, as he has NO idea what he's talking about. Logos had next to nothing to do with reason or logic, but at the time, was a term used to describe a personalized manifestation of God. For instance, the "angel of Yahweh" in the Old Testament. In the case of John in the Bible, he used it to describe Jesus, who was the eternal God yet born as a human being.

[@niccoloaurelius1587]

@Grutas Brolen different definition of the word. How it was used at the time in relation to Christianity is what I said.