The Lackawanna's Finest Train - The Phoebe Snow Story

[@henryostman5740]

Went, to college in upstate NY, rode this train many times. A big factor in ending this train was the loss of post office cars, that happened to all passenger railroads, PO traffic went to either trucks or the airlines. I loved riding that train, the club car in the rear, the dining car (they had really good cooks), it was a great travel experience and way better than the alternative, riding the dog (greyhound).

[@Westerner78]

Mail was just part of it. The Railway Express was a major income of the operation. Newspapers out of major cities too. The Owl had sections at night out of Hoboken for just the Sunday New York Times and Saturday night. It was make into train number 17 in the time table. I rode 17 no school on Saturday! Where I could catch a bus to Syracuse. It arrived at 4am. Binghamton

[@1940limited]

Nice to see some young people interested in this stuff.

[@alexclement7221]

...yet, completely unable to pronounce the names of nearby cities like Elmire or Salamanca. The one guy is slurring his words so bad that I assume he was intoxicated!

[@1940limited]

@@alexclement7221 Two kids that don't know too much yet. I still tip my hat to them for showing some interest in a topic like this.

[@williamchristian8389]

Thank you so much. looking forward to many more. Great Work!!

[@eugeeropel5572]

I would love to see the future of the Phoebe Snow back in action, for rail fans it may be what we’ve been waiting for and whether it’s 2029 or a bit after and I hope I speak for others in that respect. Yes we have and have had planes in this day and age but when you’re in planes you see a whole lot of clouds as opposed to scenery when you’re in trains, especially in the Fall. What is one of the better Routes, in my opinion than the Lackawanna Cut-Off going up through East Stroudsburg, Mount Pocono and then on to Scranton.

[@Bobbr3]

Nice job. Thanks for your efforts to produce this. I grew up in Scranton, and my relatives worked for the Erie Lackawanna. I never rode the Phoebe Snow, but rode many times on the E-L from Scranton to Hoboken as a kid going with my grandmother to and from New York City. The Phoebe Snow was a legend in Scranton. As a kid, I remember eating at the lunch counter in Woolworth's department store in downtown Scranton (just two blocks from the Lackawanna station), where a huge mural was hand-painted on the wall behind the counter that depicted the route of the Phoebe Snow.

[@KeithReinsmith]

Well done guys! Nice piece of research and videography. Great to see young gents like yourselves taking an interest in railroad history. My memory of the Phoebe Snow goes back to the early 1960's when i was just a kid. We vacationed in Forest Lakes NJ with my uncle who at the time was working as a railroad detective for New Jersey Central. The Erie Lackawanna ran about a half mile from the lake cabin we were renting and my uncle somehow knew the schedule for the Phoebe Snow (which back then ran like clockwork. So everyday for a week we hiked over the bridge over the railroad and watched the train go racing by. Pretty cool! Still have vivid memories of that. Needless to say, I was not old enough at the time to understand the historical significance of that train. Keep up the good work guys and look forward to more great videos.

[@tweitz8678]

Nice job. In about 1961, when I was in high school, I got to ride in the cab of the combined Phoebe Snow and Erie-Lackawanna Limited from Hoboken to East Stroudsburg. The locomotive was an EMD E7 or E8. I then went back and rode as a passenger to Binghamton, where I got on the Atlantic Express for the rid back to Hoboken, arriving late at night the same day.

[@Rockfan10001]

Great job! I am encourage to see young men of your age producing train content of a bygone era!

[@mawafellowhuman]

Came for Phoebe Snow (the musician) stayed for the trains. Looking forward to checking out more of your train videos. Cheers!

[@alexclement7221]

Well, I doubt these young twerps even know about her......

[@trainglen22]

Hopefully, Amtrak will be getting trains up soon. The station you showed for Buffalo is the wrong one, you showed the Buffalo Central Station not the DL&W/NKP station which is now the Niagara region transit yard

[@danielboone3770]

The Phoebe Snow really is a great train! Wish it was still running.

[@louislamonte334]

Great video! I would have LOVED to have taken this fabulous train!!

[@alexclement7221]

Well, not near the end; there was a joke in the early 1960's: A guy comes running up to the ticket counter at Newark station. "I've got to get to Buffalo in the WORST Way!!" The agent replies, "Great! I'll book you a ticket on the Erie...."

[@stephenkeever6029]

Glad you made this video! thanks

[@eugeeropel5572]

I read nothing but rave reviews about not only The Phoebe Snow and all of the other Fallen Flag Railroads and I realize that modernization has bumped (financially) all of these railroads of yesteryear out of service, but let’s look around us at the current freight railroads and how they’re painting they’re locomotives in Heritage colors, which I absolutely love but let’s face it, if not for the entrepreneur’s of the PRR, B&O, EL, NYC, GM&O, B&A and the list goes on and on, but wouldn’t it be great to see these railroads get greater recognition than what they’re currently getting. Not only on KZbin but possibly on TV as well.

[@jeromeczyzewski5018]

Very well done gentlemen! I enjoyed your video.

[@anthonywarrener1881]

Great video, and it would be wonderful to see trains returning to Scranton !

[@BruceBaker-r3d]

I believe in 1960 mom and dad let my two older brothers 11 and 9 ride the snow from warsaw ny to Corning alone, conductor taking good care of them. Mom and dad drove to corning and picked them up. Best memories ever those were the days.

[@hughmungas5462]

My family has a decent sized model layout and one yard is specially built for all railroad "flagship passenger trains" the broadway limited, the empire state express, 20th century, the mercury, the royal blue, California zephyr, the congressional. but I don't have a phoebe snow set and I wanna kick myself for forgetting one of the prettiest train sets ever.

[@itchymead7198]

Nice job Guys!

[@donaldwebster2866]

Just a few notes on town name pronunciation. Elmira is pronounced El - MY - ra. And the "manc" Salamanca is pronounced like it rhymes with Frank or Hank. Salamanca is a cool town with a neat railroad museum. It was the was the junction point of the Buffalo and Rochester lines of the Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburgh (BR&P) railroad.

[@bhrailroadhistory1509]

on times the trip, ends without slip as phoebe sadly takes her grip loth to aright bows left and right Goodbye dear road of anthracite

[@Westerner78]

Unless the kids fight to get it back! Gas is not 20 cents a gallon any more. Nor is there the air service offered to many of these small on line cities. Like there was 50 years ago! The buses run by tax free fuel and grants for operation. Or they would have disappeared when the mail and packages they carried was removed.

[@bhrailroadhistory1509]

@@Westerner78 no that was one of the poems for the Phoebe snow's Last trip as it was the end of the Phoebe Snow, they had it "Goodbye dear road of anthracite"

[@mikemancini313]

6:06 That’s not Endicott. That’s Binghamton. You can tell by the bridge above the train.

[@alexclement7221]

2:55: "Phoebe" also made an appearance briefly in the early '30's, as well.

[@bobbysenterprises3220]

Nice to hear of a local train on the interwebs. There is an original Marconi tower near the Binghamton station to check out. You can see part of it on the far right of the photo. Not sure but that photo of the owego station does not look correct. The lackawana station was quite large. It used to stand pretty close to my house. Too bad there is nothing left of the large currved bridge over the Susquehanna

[@Westerner78]

In later years Owego ERIE station was used. DL&W mainline in under a highway. I have driven it and saw it being built. Highway people do not want competition to their unlimited road building. Owego had good demand for the train . It was a about noontime for the train there. Not 3AM.

[@Westerner78]

Phoebe Snow was a local train, it depended on mail and package express. Removal of them was the end of the train. Which was 16 years close to needing replacement. End of the mail and packages to the trucking lobby. Lead by GM . The last trains were night trains when the mail moved. Removal of mail from the Owl and the Lake Cities Oct 1, 1967 ended them tool Being a local train there never was much business between major cities at the end points. Major loading was out of New Jersey restricted\ stops NOT NEW YORK.

[@Greatdome99]

No, it was not a local train. As the video mentions, it operated between NYC/Hoboken & Buffalo where it connected to Nickel Plate Chicago trains. To save time and remain competitive it did not stop everywhere as would a local train. It operated with very little head-end cars and NO railway post office cars, so it was not dependent on mail or Railway Express business at all.

[@blueport4]

From 1963 to 1966, Phoebe Snow ran Hoboken to Chicago through Hornell, Olean Jamestown along the old Erie route in the southern tier of NY,..the Lake Cities ran until 1970 .

[@Westerner78]

@@Greatdome99 There were special RPO cars made for the train. Out of heavyweights, rebuilt. Pictures without the mail cars would be taken on a Sunday when the mail and packages did not move That is when guys had no work or school. . As other locals were discontinued the remaining mail was put on Phoebe. There was a advanced train about a hour before Phoebe left Hoboken. And of course the OWL that was very heavy on the head end business. My first time I rode the train was in 1955 to Pocono Summit. . I rode it 1963 to 1966 the end between Binghamton and Hoboken ( New York) then continued riding it to get to my job in Milwaukee, Wisconsin 1100 miles west of New York until the end. I continue to ride the Owl and the Lake Cities until their end. I was on the second to the last Lake Cities. Jan 1970. Of course I have pictures, tickets, menus and 50 tons more. I am glad to see your interest in Phoebe. The final finding of the ICC , yes I have the book. Since I was a witness in the proceeding. Was that Erie Lackawanna intercity passenger service was a local . The ICC as a interstate Commerce Commission. Saw no value in forcing the service to continue. Not even holidays only , or just three days a week. Lake Cities had a small profit of a million dollars to the end. But that was nothing to the Erie Management in Cleveland. The train was almost 20 years old and in need of replacement. Millions could be saved by letting the railroad mostly tracks get downgraded and fall apart. In the end all the railroads of the Northeast went bankrupt. From short haul freight and passenger operations that were low revenue. NS and CSX are mega systems with long haul high revenue operations. The western lines with a few exceptions did not go broke due to long haul, high revenue freight. Thanks again for your nice video. Get a time table collection. They tell most of the story .

[@Westerner78]

@@blueport4 I know I rode it about 40 times' I miss it to this day. The food was simple and not expensive like on the Penn and the Central. Can you be emailed

[@Westerner78]

Reinstatement of the name, was done as a distraction for the removal of Pocono Express and Twilight Limited. Removal of trains and services reduced ridership Of course, trains ran with one coach no matter the demand. . No reservations to keep people off when full. Last day Phoebe Snow was NOV 1966 in FOUR SECTIONS! Equipment scrapping started right away of the extra equipment. About 3 cars of the 30 coaches are left. All there New Jersey stops were restricted look at time tables guys and the remarks in them.

[@brucehain]

In some cases it's better to lower the track than raise the platform, but it costs money to do that and the chief priority now is having at least 45 Alternatives (none of them being the correct one usually) in each of the several EIS documents published annually that contemplate rail "improvements". I am surprised though that Phoebe Snow made so many local stops on the M&E line. I always thought they used the DL&W Main Line through Paterson. Or maybe it wasn't the main line. There was a big DL&W station there. Chuck Walsh has a video about the dispute between the people on the one hand and the railroads and Route 80 interests on the other. It was shorter/not so circuitous. Route 80 took that out. That's the problem with old Chuck's revival plans is it takes two hours just to get to Lake Hopatcong. (and about a $billion-and-counting to get from Lake Hopatcong to Andover on account of that damn tunnel, which should have been a cut. ((Chuck hates it when I say that)) That's the kind of "improvements" the people who write the EIS's prefer though.) There are 'available' solutions based on rebuilding-with-big upgrades of both or either of the Erie lines branching from where there used to be a station called Forest Hill in Newark.

[@SteveRoberts5330]

@brucehain, if you're aware of Chuck's videos you are also aware of the prohibitions against daylighting Andover Tunnel, as well as the geological implications of trying to turn that tunnel into a cut 115-ish years ago (unstable rock)... Also, the Phoebe Snow didn't use the Boonton Line thru Paterson typically because it was the DL&W's primary freight route... The Phoebe Snow is well documented to have used the commuter route through Brick Church, Summit, etc with departures not allowed until Blairstown. Anywho, the most recent service plan shared by Amtrak and the feds denial a roughly three-hour run time between Scranton and NYC in either direction. Still faster than Route 80 during the day and much faster than the locals to Lake Hopatcong you mentioned now.

[@SACWarrior70s]

Before you film another two person interview, you need to set your phone for wide and lesrn how to film "with-in the frame!" It is too skinny! Get a stick to help get the shots... Needs work!

[@TenMinuteTrips]

I’m a little disappointed that in your “context” section, you described the California Zephyr as being Amtrak’s, while mentioning the original railroads that operated other named trains. The original California Zephyr was operated by three railroads in its journey between Chicago and Oakland. The Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, the Denver & Rio Grand Western, and Western Pacific. The original California Zephyr followed a different route than it does today. If you’re doing a story about classic named trains, using Amtrak as an example, is just laziness on your part. Amtrak does have some original names for newer service, and they had to rebrand the former Santa Fe Super Chief and El Capitan into what is now the Southwest Chief. But that’s beside the point. Let’s celebrate the history of passenger railroads in America by respecting the originals.

[@alexclement7221]

3:37: 1944, huh? Why is everybody dressed more like it's 1900, then????

[@spuds6423]

It's Elmira as in "El My Rah"........yeesh!!🤬🤬🤬

[@huckstaunfiltered8200]

@spuds6423 Elmira is where my grandparents were born, my grandfather was a conductor for Erie Lackawanna. I still have his Hamilton 992b railwatch ( he passed away in 1972 ) I was a toddler. I just wanted to share this, I miss the area. My father grew up in Horseheads, and brings back very fond memories. My first school was in Horseheads.

[@rrsteamer]

You people need to both proof read and get the correct pronunciation for the words you speak. A pretty good collection of pics and vid’s but you need to have someone with in-depth knowledge about the subjects you present to really deserve a thumbs up.

[@richardbause2453]

Doug Ellison used to work on the Eire Lackawanna and has just written a book on the Utica Division of the Lackawanna and the Phebe Snow. It's available at Barnes and Nobel and the the Utica & Mohawk Valley Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society.

[@Westerner78]

Dover pop of 18,000. Lots of trains. Cities of millions have no service. The election of Nov will decide if the Scranton gets the service back.

[@melaubach]

Oh well, so much for that hope …

[@Westerner78]

@@melaubach IT's in play still, we'll see if the new republican walks away from a billion dollars in development for NEPA! Just for more tax breaks for the super rich. Yes give money to the super rich , great idea.

[@alexclement7221]

6:16: WRONG STATION!!!!!! You are showing the New York Central station; The DL&W station (Lackawanna Terminal) was downtown, right near the river, where the NFTA Rail Maintenance Yard is today (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFTA_Rail_Maintenance_Yard). Really, a quick Wikipedia check would've told you this....

[@SteveRoberts5330]

@alexclement7221... Calm down. Retract the caps, be helpful - not critical. Nobody is an expert here, and Wikipedia searches can be wrong too. Sarcasm and capital letters don't make you smarter or better. Give these folks credit for what otherwise is a great video presentation.

[@alexclement7221]

@@SteveRoberts5330 Great???? they missed the entire reason why the DL&W had so much of the NYC-Buffalo passenger business. Besides, there are literally DOZENS of websites about the central/western NY railroad scene online.

[@SteveRoberts5330]

@alexclement7221 you didn't pay anything to watch this and nobody forced you... SILENCE YOUR TROLLING AND KEEP ON SCROLLING!

[@alexclement7221]

@@SteveRoberts5330 PTHTHTHTHTH!!!!!!!!!!

[@THEFINALHAZARD]

Hate to say but I’m very doubtful on the Scranton extension. They’ve been talking about that between Amtrak and NJT for well over two decades now. Think SEPTA tried a hand at that too, but. Dunno if we’re ever gonna see that again. Even the line SEPTA had to Allentown didn’t fare favorably

[@SteveRoberts5330]

Except now there is a service development plan that outlines stops and time of day and the Scranton Project is the furthest along it has been since it was discontinued in 1966!