The Lady of the Lake Offers Her Grail! Lorebeards w/ Andy Law & Sotek

Join Loremaster of Sotek and Andy Law(master) as they host a livestream focused on discussing the lore behind the Lady of the Lake, the mysterious Goddess of Bretonnia! A debatably aquatic entity that represents concepts of Chivalry, Nobility, and Honor. There are nearly countless myths about who the Lady may be in truth, all the way from one of the enigmatic Elven Gods to perhaps a deity born from a far darker place. Regardless, the Lorebeards are on the case to delve into the murky depths of this Lake of mystery!
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Podcast original stream date December 4th, 2023
Thanks to Creative Assembly for all of their diligent work going into Warhammer 3 and for allowing me to cover everything.
#warhammer #Lorebeards #warhammerfantasy

[@SpiceCh]

Nurgle would definitely be the type to tip a fedora and go "milady", but I also strongly feel as if he would pronounce it "malady"

[@xiii0722]

Have another like

[@zodrickzheioh7318]

So, the Lady of the Lake walks around with a grail of super soldier serum, where you have to prove yourself to be captain bretonnia before they get a sip so that you don't get Warhammer Red Skulls 😂😂

[@cosmiclich9546]

Morgiana being the one single elf that The Lady relies on has completely changed my position. I always liked the idea that she was a human so blessed that she was functionally immortal as opposed to the long lived Grail Knights and Prophetesses. But that single argument made her all the more interesting. She has always been my favourite character. This made her better.

[@josecoronadonieto6911]

Morgiana went from either a badass human or a hipocrite elf, to a badass elf.

[@nasir6r996]

Hurray! I asked a relevant question!

[@gavinmillar]

Mal-o-bad. Truly one of the Warhammer names of all time.

[@therasslintheatre2960]

My wish is that someone from GW's current design team is taking notes from these streams, so many juicy bits and details of lore both fans and GW either missed or didn't knew about all together, like all the hints of Ze Lady being Ladriell and not Lileath, worship of the Lady not being exclusive to the upper levels of bretonnian society, the lady effectively telling Orion to stop being a gonk, etc.

[@GoldenKaos]

God I wish

[@AzureShadow88]

Shame I missed the stream, I just started the vid so maybe you get to it. When you mentioned the 2 different versions of Bretonnia an idea popped into my head which is along the lines what Andy sometimes likes to do: How can we make them both happen in the same world? My idea is a cultural divide between Naval and Army culture (An idea not unfamilliar in real world history). Bretonnia as a naval powerhouse never made sense to me led by knights, it would make sense for the naval commanders to stick with modern ranged weapons to protect their fleets. This gets you a vastly different Naval culture that can perhaps embody the old version of Bretonnia.

[@Living_with_Narcissists]

I thought about this too, and my solution doubles as a solution for the timeline errors. I've heard some people suggest that the tribes of Bretton settled in those lands even though Sigmar didn't try to expand to them because they were hostile to humans, and they had to tame them. I think it's weird that Sigmar would be scared of monsters and a bunch of tribe people who are looking for a new home to settle choose the least inhabitable one to humans. But what would make sense is if that original version of Brettonia was an Empire that already existed there "since the Stone Age", it would be foolish to start a war with an entire human Empire while you're trying to form your own. And like Rome it could have been technologically ahead of its time, but due to a huge influx of tribesmen, it collapses. The primary tribe of which goes on to form the modern Brettonia.

[@Haccoude]

Regarding the old lore that "Only Nobles can become Grail Knights", it actually makes a lot of sense from the perspective of "The Lady is exceedingly risk averse". Being born a peasant that has to struggle and fight for survival might breed emotional attachments, political ideas or a hunger for power/wealth that makes them more susceptible to the Ruinous Powers. "Only Nobles can become Questing Knights, and only Questing Knights can become Grail Knights" mean the ONLY possible way to be imbued with the power of the Grail, is to be born into the luxury and wealth of Nobility, and then willingly forsake that to pursue a higher and more spiritual purpose that requires asceticism and hardship. That seems like something that would very useful to judge how vulnerable someone is to be corrupted by the Ruinous Powers.

[@GoldenKaos]

I don't think she needs to rely on such a cumbersome test tbh, she seems to be able to see through people's characters and intentions well enough to make such judgements.

[@RedCascadian]

That doesn't really fit with what we see in Warhammer or in reality, though. Nobles speaking a big game but pursuing wealth and power beyond the already enormous wealth they possess. Then there's the inherent corruptibility that comes with power over others. I think nobles are just more likely to qualify because they have the resources and the training. Knights began their training historically first as a page boy(age 5-7) then as a squire (7-whenever they're knighted). They spend their childhoods with access to more and better food, and top-notch training and equipment, with the time to pursue said training full time (when they aren't scrubbing shit and piss out of their lords armor). Some peasant who has dealt with famines, back breaking labor and not much time learning to fight or much access to high quality equipment is a lot less likely to survive their questing period than the carefully groomed killing-machine above.

[@FiddleWiddle]

You guys are awesome for providing this content. Thank you!

[@Vandelberger]

I will say, the new Bretonian models are pretty epic.

[@rocketroux5838]

Well now I want those elite men Spellblade really really bad

[@Mr.Grumbler]

Its strange that when they speak about Brettonia in AoS, everyone mentions the ghouls and the Lady of Cankerwall. But what about the Idoneth Deepkin? They are cavalry heavy, they have "peasant archers, they have a a knightly caste, a magic wielder caste, and everybody else is a commoner. They use deception, illusions, mists, they even venerate old elven gods, Ladrielle too. It can be a perfect opportunity to bring back "Brettonia" in some way. The lore says that they are created from the souls that Slaanesh devoured last. Maybe the reason of their soul curse is that they are not fully aelven souls, but partially human, breton, grail knight souls. The new bretons, and the new Lady, could be a part of the Idoneths.

[@rhivan6921]

I really love that interpretation! If I ever have Idoneth that is 100% the direction I'll take it!

[@rellek4053]

I remember reading somewhere that any beast a grail knight rides into battle automatically receives all of the knight’s blessings until they dismount. I’m 90% sure it was official.

[@madskristiansen]

Total War agrees that Ladrielle is The Lady.

[@PatrickOMulligan]

But do TW think Ladrielle is Lileath?

[@xiii0722]

Oh, is there an event about it or an intro?

[@madskristiansen]

@@xiii0722 Check the Wood Elves tech tree under Ladrielle. It gives extra diplomacy with Brettonia.

[@xiii0722]

@@madskristiansen ty ty

[@cosmiclich9546]

My head-canon understanding of the Lady being just "a God," as Andy puts it, is that she shifted from being an elf goddess to a human goddess. The thing that made her unique to me was that centuries of faith by the Bretonnian people, and the Lady's preference of these humans over the elves, has changed her divine nature as a elf aligned goddess to a human aligned goddess. This hasn't happened anywhere else in the Warhamer universe. Where a god has actively and willingly changed allegiances. We all know of the dwarven gods, elven gods, greenskin gods, and the human gods. We've had Myrmidia change from god to mortal. We've had Sigmar change from mortal to god. We've had gods worshipped by different races and nationalities (Such as Chaos by elves, humans, and dwarves. Or Morr worshipped by The Empire, Bretonnia, and the Southern Realms.) But never has a god changed from one chosen people to another. Maybe I'm completely off. Maybe Andy and Sotek think I'm nuts, but this has been my impression to the idea that The Lady is originally from the elven pantheon. That all being said, I understand what Andy means that she is just Bretonnia's Goddess.

[@RedSamurai91]

"strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."

[@kobetharp4420]

I've fallen in love with this podcast love you both and appreciate the lore. And yes I'm subbed to both of you.

[@thebigoof2291]

Every week I wait for a new episode and I’m never disappointed keep on the good work guys.

[@sinsinsinat5377]

One podcast topic I suggest is summary of the Warhammer fantasy for the ones who are new to the setting.... obviously not too indepth because that would take ages...but what I would go through is history of nations... geography...major historical figures.... pivotal historical moments....cultures...gods...etc...up to the end times where warhammer world is destroyed....maybe this will be a better idea after the lore is finished for eastern nations...

[@saweendra8690]

Also my theory is Mallbadue did not drink from the grail at all. But the red grail which is described in the night of dark masters, and he was a vampiric entity ever since , and twisted by the images the red grail conjures

[@lovebergstrom5786]

Wonderful as always, lorebeards. You guys brighten every end of week. Cheers and here's for season 2!

[@Tulkash01]

I’ll give you this: the people on the “Strike to Stun” forums weren’t happy about the way Bretonnia was changed. To be fair, the original Bretonnia read as the way British prejudices depicted French people.

[@therasslintheatre2960]

Games Workshop, a british company, making fun of the french ? no way!

[@hangebza6625]

Associated with Mist, Bodies of Water and Wanderlust? Mannan and Ladrielle would make a fine couple IMO

[@alanlabuda7166]

technically they already chill a bit, the Dukedom of Bordeleaux has a significant Mannan worshipping scene, Mannan aided the Grail Companion, specifically a warrior of the Lady in his duel with the norscan warlord.

[@PatrickOMulligan]

Morgiana appeared during the 14 battles in Carcassonne according to Knights of the Grail. She was cited to having been around for some time. Only during the 14 battles it was revealed her association with ze lady.

[@TheWeedely]

Now i would be really interested in a stream about Bretonnian peasents and the common folk

[@nagashtheundyingking4404]

hmm i can't stop but draw some similarities to Kislev and the Lady a God like entity who is attached to a part of land where they are quite active and very anti chaos. honestly the easiest way to fix the lady would maybe be to say lileath lied in her madness that she is the lady or something down that line.

[@Meteor2022]

Wonder if there's any connection between the chaos chalice and the grail/false grail. Just finished reading Sea of Claws and the powers granted from both are quite similar, even going so far as to be quite permanent.

[@FUNBadTime]

Sadly I was not there during this stream. I would have loved to ask you guys about what you think about the "grimdark" aspects added to Bretonnia that people often bring up, like knights failing to protect their peasants or straight up abusing them and their power. Using them as cannon-fodder and such. I guess that would be problems inherent in such powerstructures, but the Lady and the codes of chivalry probably wouldnt endorse such treatment. Other than that is it true that life is much better as an imperial citizen, compared to a bretonnian peasant?

[@SpiceCh]

Grail knights have demonstrated their chivalry and dedication to upholding the code, so I really don't think they'd be the type to turn around and abuse their powers. The lady goes through a lot of hoops vetting them to make sure this doesn't happen. Regular nobles and knights are a different beast, although I still cannot imagine a regular knight intentionally using peasants as a cannon fodder vanguard when the chivalrous thing would be to be at the head of the charge themselves. Regular everyday dehumanizing and disregard probably happens on a daily basis though. As for peasants vs citizens, it probably depends. Toiling in the fields as a peasant might be tough, but being a lumberjack in and around the Drakwald might just be worse. It really depends on where you live and what you're doing, I think.

[@RedCascadian]

​@SleepyFen Ehhh, I see the Knights and lords using peasants more as the anvil for their hammer. And since most of those peasant soldiers are levies without much training or armor... Look I might not be deliberately using you as cannon fodder, but if I've got you and the boys in hand-me down gambesons and spears with a little drilling if you're lucky, or jist a mob of dudes armed with "f* you, figure it out" if you're not... both of which are canon... you're gonna have the same end result. I think some peasants having decent lords and many having absolute shitheads would be pretty believable though.

[@atomic9706]

That nod to dumais wells and wheel of time got my hairs standing up

[@thegreatbookofgrudges6953]

1:56:35 so basically there are 3 elven gods that stood against Asuryan's order to went directly to their servants 2:01:17 remember about the lost realm that the high elves searching in the ocean? I think she took it

[@akumaking1]

Merry Christmas everyone!

[@rronnie8883]

2:14:00 to comment on what you said. Warhammer being grounded to real world. Even in the medieval era women became rulers some were fighters like in the 100 years war what repanse de lyonesse is based off of. Just because a woman inherited the throne or became a famous fighter doesn't change the outlook of them in that era they were considered second class to men. They didn't immediately get equal rights. So i don't know why Bretonnia would immediately switch over to equal rights just because she became a Duchess

[@bullronin1]

Grail Knights are like those super rats from the Secret of Nihm

[@faceoctopus4571]

Regarding Bretonnians knights that don't worship the lady, I have a possible example: Adalhard, who some suspect worships Ulric instead of The Lady. (at least if the second hand stuff I've read is to be trusted).

[@markmcdowell2733]

Merry Christmas! Thanks for the content. Enjoy Karaoke, Andy!

[@ASpaceOstrich]

If you do 40k vs Fantasy, prepare for a lot of 40k fans who for some reason think 40k is high power sci-fi to get real mad in the comments. They think Space Marines are indestructible.

[@RealCodreX]

They are not even that overpowered when it comes to direct comparison to other science fiction universes. The pretty much only win against the likes of Star Wars/Trek because they have more numbers on their side and not better technology. However, the real fun begins when they try to reason that they could somehow defeat the Foundation, Xelee, All Tomorrows or Perry Rhodan. XD

[@ASpaceOstrich]

@@RealCodreX Yeah. In many ways they have worse technology than we do right now in real life. Thats part of the point of 40k. Its feudalism in space. But a lot of people miss the point.

[@Coerciveutopian]

Yeah, I remember when bretonia book came out and how unfair the wedge was.

[@cosmiclich9546]

Prophetesses and Damsels have always been my favourite part of Bretonnia. It's such a shame that 80-90% of Bretonnian lore is strictly about knights doing knightly things. It's such a problem that Bretonnia is so one-note in its story and lore that any list suggesting new characters for Bretonnia in Total War: Warhammer 3 is filled with 99% knights and Bretrand the Brigand. I try my best when making my lists to include Prophetess characters; such as Elynesse, Dowager of Charnorte, who went nearly mad by daemons trying to find prophecy, or the Three Sisters of Ancelioux, which are three sisters who were taken and deemed worthy to become the Mage-Priestesses we know and love. Imagine the odds that 3 of your children are magically inclined. But the problem with finding these characters is that they are all either plot devices to drive the knight to do knightly things, or that these women are simply dead. Even Morgiana, the wisest and most powerful of the Prophetesses, failed to defeat Mallobaude's army and was soon after killed. The only example of a Damsel/Prophetess character that has any significance, and doesn't die as a result, was the sister in the Bretonnia omnibus. But even she cared so little of Bretonnia and decided to live in Athel Loren. Yet, as an aside to characterization, Bretonnian magic deserves to be expanded. What Spell-Lore is so emblematic of the Lady's mysterious nature? Shadows! Do they have it? Nope! What Spell-Lore is so emblematic of the "Light of the Lady" that Bretonnians cry out AND is the ANTI-THESIS to Chaos? Light! Do they have it? Nope! Well the Bretonnians at least have unique fay magic, which was probably invented by Morgiana using the wisdom and power of The Lady herself. But wait a minute... That was only the Fay Enchantress's spells back in 5th edition. Was this ever brought back and expanded for other Prophetesses to cast? Just another fat nope. On the Omnibus, Bretonnia is described as a land of myth and magic. Well the secret, as per End Times, was stupid, and the magic they wield is less than pretty much every other race. This rant is to say, I am glad that the revival project has focused on making a new Prophetess character with hopefully many other revisions to Bretonnian lore. I *hope* this includes expanded magic, but that alreaady seems untrue. As I understood it, the recent magic article showed a Damsel character with very limited spell access. I can only use the Lore of Life and Heavans so many times in my TW Bretonnia campaigns so long before getting bored.

[@Grz349]

I wonder if there were human tribes in Brettonia before Sigma, but the Brettoni move in later like the Gospers and the Ungols?

[@milesg7877]

Love the content! Thank you!

[@markcooper3516]

Merry Christmas you glorious rascals. I LOVE YOUR BEARDS!

[@MySuperPowerIsITouchGrass]

Awww crap I forgot to ask this during the stream. Hopefully I can still get it answered. Grail knight vs Chosen/Chaos Knight vs Blood Knight. One average which one is the strongest?

[@mattaffenit9898]

Oh boy, the messy lore. 😂

[@dalelowery3164]

Thanks gents...

[@thegreatbookofgrudges6953]

2:28:30 2:29:16 2:33:15 2:36:02 Duke of L'Anguille against norscan chieftain on top of a spire 2:37:07 2:37:57

[@stilloading5652]

Isn’t Kemmler Grimdark Merlin?

[@saweendra8690]

Bretonnia do have merlin character Bagrian

[@ASpaceOstrich]

LoadingReadyRun does a week long stream. Yes, they do go insane. And yes, it is for charity. Desert Bus for Hope.

[@daviddines479]

empire handgunners = musketeers

[@tictactic7909]

Wait…Ladrielle….Galadriel……👀 oh my god.

[@lpac9871]

I know I'm very late to the party and no-one will probably read this 😀- but having heard what Andy said about Bretonnia - I now actually think that I would have preferred Bretonnia as originally intended - More based on the Musketeer/ Pre - revolution France, as a kind of more parallel technological counterpart to the Empire rather than what it is now. I would take the current (Knights of the Round) lore of Bretonnia and rework it and add/transfer it to Albion instead (more of an Britannia counterpart anyway) - So Albion could be this seperate mysterious, magical, mist-shrouded somewhat isolated, somewhat out of time place - A land of Medieval style Knights, Druids, Giants and Monsters like a Dark Fairy Tale, which I think could work as part of the Warhammer world. That way you could pretty much keep what you currently have with Bretonnian lore/rules and also have the Musketeer France Bretonnia as well - best of both worlds! 😁

[@SquirtleSquady]

Comment for algorithm :) thanks for the consistent streams

[@danielbryant2511]

Misinformation, don't you mean a Lorebeards discussion about Ladrielle

[@willowilson5753]

Its scouser not liverpudlian 😢

[@ReachStudioPro]

I have mentioned this before but I'll say it again. Thanks to Dragon Age: Last Flight I was given or better worded, BLESSED with an interest in Bretonnia, especially the Hippogryphs. I have surprisingly fallen in love with Bretonnia and I am glad to learn that this is actually a "good" faction and it is allowed to exist in Warhammer. I am bored of the "Nothing good can exist! A deep dark evil behind every action made by the faction/race must exist!" so I'm glad about the existence of Bretonnia and Cathay. However, after 3 hours and 23 minutes, NOT ONCE was the Hippogryphs mentioned. Why? Are they really that insignificant in Warhammer?

[@ceflapoid5701]

Soo if im hearing you corectly, the Lady is traing to build pocket Settras that will listen to her demands? And the closest she can get is Leon, but he is too good of person to be like Settra (who is admitedly piece of shit as human being go, but the greatest ruler/noble of humankind jet to be born), who IMO shouldnt lose to Leon, he can duel to stalemate litteral gods and dominate greter chaos demons, while being know as general and tactician first and warior second.

[@nbmoleminer5051]

❤

[@willd7596]

So... a grail knight can now be a woman, but the maidens have to be women and the guardians of the Fay have to be men? hmmmmmm.....

[@weslooos]

has been liked. writing the whole thign up to a language barrier whit the word lady would be funn, Skaven would give it a good try. stealing the "water" from the grail.

[@Quintus_Fontane]

Belated comment for the algorithm, and also to point out that the snowflakes on Andy's fetching jumper are technically eight pointed stars 😈

[@SpiceCh]

Perfectly in the spirit of Slaaneshmas. Or should they have been seven-pointed? 🤔

[@PatrickOMulligan]

Questing knights can encounter ze Lady outside of Bretonnia. How does that fit the Ladrielle caged idea? Edit: And tpu guys bring this up after I typed it...

[@PatrickOMulligan]

The retcon for female knights is a massive incoming headache. Women are far less likely to be Grail Knights because they are far less likely to go on a Grail Quest. Warhammer is turning into Dragon Age. I do not need my politics inserted into every IP I love.

[@GoldenKaos]

"Far less likely" is essentially fine, but according to currently published lore it's LITERALLY NEVER, which is bullshit. The idea that after 1500 years of this tradition that there hasn't been one girl who defied gender norms and followed it through to the end is fairly ludicrous. (And no, Repanse doesn't count, as the Lady hand-picked her while she was still a peasant, and she never supped from the Grail either.) And I mean, the original lore was the result of politics being inserted into the IP as well, just (probably) unconsciously.

[@MySuperPowerIsITouchGrass]

Lol "I do not need my politics inserted into every IP I love". Bro thinks politics is when women can can put armor on and swing a sword. Also imagine bitching about politics in fucking WARHAMMER. The Empire is literally a cluster fuck of political maneuvering. Like what!?!?!

[@xiii0722]

I don't think that it's because of politics. If all of a sudden, from one specific writer, an enormous amount of women in bretonnia become knights out of nowhere and they seem to be even stronger, faster, deadlier & better than all the previous male ones without a reasonable lore explanation, then I would say its totally modern politics and would agree. But that's not the case here, it's just interesting if women can become badass warriors as well, it's a world with magic and monsters after all. It's just how I would also really enjoy the story of a kislevite/bretonnian boy with a gift for magic, who survives and makes it big somewhere else. Plus, I also think, like Andy mentioned in steams before, you can notice older politics absolutely as well in warhammer fantasy in various places.

[@colonelsanders1349]

The new lore is that some women could become regular knights during Louen Orc-Slayer’s reign. It’s not a retcon because it’s set in the past.

[@jonaskollinger3676]

I have to say that i am not super happy with the idea that the lady can social engineer brettonia to all kinds of specific goals, but she can't abolish toxic masculinity and make male spellcasters safe.

[@kelpie1533]

Men combined with magic is bad because of indelible male characteristics that make them more prone to corruption. Also women are just as likely to be knights as men because... reasons? Sorry I prefer my old lore where women in Bretonnia can become knights by just pretending to be men. But are still pretty rare.

[@jayjbinks6888]

It's funny how it seems like the same writer for fantasy and 40k wrote some of the dumbest lore ever

[@mrman5566]

Awesome as always!