The Last Of Us Episode 9 Aftershow

On today's After Show, John discusses and breaks down the ninth and season's final episode of the HBO Max video game to a live-action series adaptation of The Last Of Us.
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[@perm1730]

As a father of two young daughters, 2 and 4 years old, I know that there is zero chance of letting them go. 100% that I would pull a "Joel" and wipe that hospital clean for them. Also, on the flip side, I know in my heart that I could not blame another father for doing the same, even if it doomed the rest of the world.

[@blakedesmond]

I have a daughter and I would have done the same. FTW! 🔥 🌎 🔥

[@johnnyflannigan136]

Right..but ellie isn't Joel's daughter.. Hes known her a year.. And yes theyve been through hell and are very close but hes using Ellie to fill in a need he has from psychological trauma..its actually pretty dark..joel is not the good guy here..what he did was horrible..but I still like him lol

[@ChildishGambeaner]

​@@johnnyflannigan136 Very true. What he did was completely selfish, but I still understand him

[@hjames78]

And they didn't even know if it world of worked. That makes it worse

[@remerbulldog5144]

Yeah, but here’s the difference if Joel knew that Ellie would have a proof of what he did he would’ve told her the truth

[@jimbof3571]

I also love Joel looking at Ellie smiling seeing Ellie laughing and enjoying the moment.

[@rwwilson21]

you know a few years back Troy baker did play through of game 1 and I think he summed it up what Joel did perfectly: "Joel did save the world. Because to him the world is that little girl [Ellie]."

[@luisbarboza8003]

What I dont see people mentioning is, is this humanity worth saving? Through the show we have seen that humans have become worse monstera than the infected. I believe on this worl humanity died long ago I would make a case that saving ellie is a more human thing to do than letting her die. Even if a vac ine was created it would be an incredible power struggle to give it to people that would cause even more chaos. The infected didnt destroy Joels world, Humanity did

[@Emilio2595]

In Joel’s defense A.) they didn’t ask Ellie B.) there was no guarantee that this “cure” was gonna work

[@johncampea]

If only i addressed both of those in the video… oh wait. :)

[@MarkArnoldMusic]

So neither of them would've wanted it to be Ellie's decision. Neither them actually wanted Ellie to have the choice. As confident as Marlene was about Ellie's hypothetical decision, she still would've feared she would say no in giving her the choice. Conversely, Joel would've feared she would say yes. They were both seeking Ellie for their own purposes irrespective of Ellie's decision. The moral conundrum is the conflict between protecting the one thing that will save you, or sacrificing the one thing that will save everyone else. This show really draws out people's inherent values given impossible circumstances...

[@Shaughn21]

@@johncampealmao, your witty comebacks haha

[@kellyvalence5323]

Joel not giving her the choice wasn’t really an option at that moment & to tell her the truth after the fact would only cause her more harm, that is also a motivation for him to lie.

[@FarhanHassanFarrrn]

@@johncampea they still needed ask her so she could break it to Joel herself. Tell him that this procedure is what she wants and maybe even thank him for all that he has done for her. He never got any closure with the loss of his daughter and he thought he was going to experience the same thing all over again when they didn't even involve him in the send off.

[@DJsFamilyofNerds]

I love hearing johns perspective but cost effective or not these aftershows just work better with the whole crew

[@cherrybank124]

Was that the reason for not including everyone else, I missed any explanation. I miss the crew and their conversations

[@KingKam93]

And as a gamer who has played this game 7+ times. Everything they did elevated the story and when I think back to the Last of US , I never really think of the infected encounters, story has always been the core so the complaints about not enough infected action baffles me.

[@JayPatrol]

Thats because some people are action prone and that is their attention span of things. Some people wouldn't last long sitting down to watch a great movie like on Golden pond back in my day

[@joe_dns4625]

The symbolism of Ashley literally giving birth to a physical Ellie, when so much of who she is informed who Ellie is, and how she also metaphorically gave birth to Ellie, and Marlene killing her is also incredibly poetic and understated.

[@adamwhite4858]

After reading a ton of comments, I think that the big difference between those who condemn Joel and those who support him is your ability to empathize with the man. It’s easy to look at a situation in the macro-sense and say that one life isn’t as important as everyone else’s (if indeed the vaccine was successful), but if you allow yourself to truly put yourself in Joel’s shoes and look at the situation purely from his perspective, then I don’t see how you could come to the conclusion that he would be remotely capable of making any other decision.

[@TheTriskit4]

Perfectly said

[@jasonclarke6265]

Such a good aftershow John. Very thought provoking. I know you're not retiring for a few years. But I will miss your thoughts and well explained opinions on epic shows like this. When that last day comes, it will be a sad day for the fan community.

[@matthewmarlin7566]

“You’re the last person I want to owe a favor to…” Marlene expected Joel to be the jaded mercenary she thought she knew. She underestimated how dangerous it is when a man like that has something to lose… “How did you do it?” They were able to survive because of the bond they forged. That very bond would be the thing that destroys the entire plan. There is so much powerful narrative irony in this story; working on so many levels.

[@KingKam93]

I watched this episode with my mother and she was loudly cheering while Joel killed everyone and she said to me "If that were you or your sister, I would do the exact same thing". Parents who love their children will fight tooth and nail against all morality for them. Beautifully adapted and I'm looking forward to the debates starting up again.

[@JayPatrol]

Not against morality against evil In this case morality of saving the world. Most people would fight for their families against evil in the world

[@johnnyflannigan136]

Ellie isn't Joel's daughter...

[@TheVisualante]

No body is entitled to the death of any one person for a chance of their own survival. If Ellie chose not to do it people would say she’s being selfish. The proposition itself is flawed and in that circumstance the responsible and ethical thing to do is to find another way or wait until she dies. Her life is not worth any less then the sum of all people even if SHE thought it was. I agree with Joel 100% he was the only one there saving someone. Also he wasn’t going against unarmed folks these are people that had their share of killing innocents and disrupting someone else’s view of saving the world from chaos (fedra). They partook in explosions and murders and they were just instructed to kill him if he gave any resistance. They 100% would not allow Joel to just walk in and say hey am just going to take her nicely without killing the guy. Ellie just went through a traumatic event and has not been in a state of mind that can decipher the value of her life and even if she did it’s wrong.

[@JordanNMovies]

Happy that the creators confirmed on Variety Last of Us Part II will be more than one season 🙌🏽

[@laurenjulia1877]

I don’t think HBO or the show runners will get rid of **** in the first season of the the part 2 adaptation. Well maybe in the last episode of season two but I think they’ll want to keep the actor as long as possible in the current timeline. There’s so much of their relationship we don’t see in part 2 that the flashbacks barely even fill in. I think there’s a good chunk of time they could use as world building and exploring the infected more. There’s so much material showing what Ellie and Joel are like separately and together when they aren’t actively surviving constantly.

[@Cjones1375]

Having immunity wouldn't save the world. People would still get bit or ripped apart by the infected. Ellie being immune doesn't stop them from bitting her or going after her. Just stops her from turning.

[@daniellee3265]

Definitely wouldn’t save the world, just means the Fireflies would have control of the cure and exploit it in order to have all the power.

[@QuarantinedCapricorn]

It doesn’t save the world right away, but if people can’t get infected anymore, then eventually all hosts die off and the fungus goes extinct. Humanity would be able to start to prosper again in the future. Eventually.

[@Cjones1375]

@@QuarantinedCapricorn nah. The infected been thriving for 20 yrs in some cases. So they can't infect anymore humans. They evolved once in this world to survive. They wouldn't mutate or start to infect animals next? I don't buy that.

[@QuarantinedCapricorn]

@@Cjones1375 i’m just stating facts. That’s why you see infected dead and growing up walls all over the place. The hosts eventually die. They are still loving breathing animals and eventually die like all things. They aren’t undead zombies.

[@adamwhite4858]

Exactly, the damage was already done. Learning to survive within the confines of a post-cordyceps world like Tommy’s group in Jackson was the only true solution for moving forward as a species. A lot of people seem to think Joel prevented the world reverting completely back to normal, which simply isn’t the case.

[@remerbulldog5144]

Best game adaptation of all time hands down. This was a fantastic show.

[@deedeek75]

I’m so torn 2:48 I really hate missing your review. I just don’t wanna be spoiled. You guys enjoy!

[@elishamasih9093]

I’m surprised how many people didn’t notice… this is Joel Episode 1… driving past the family with a kid…

[@matthewmarlin7566]

When we are presented with the dichotomy between Marlene and Joel, we see the difference between the self-sacrifice of idealism/activism, and the attachment of self-centered love. Just like the game did, the show challenges the player/viewer about our inherent identification with the “protagonist.” It’s a truly unique experience to have that ambivalent feeling of celebrating Joel’s conviction and dedication to a character we also cherish and love, while also being horrified by his actions.

[@scobe1295]

My only issues with the show, is that I see no need for a cure because the infected don’t seem like a threat in the world they have developed for the show. This can be amended in the second season it’s more of a nitpick. Also yes the firefly’s we’re trying to “save the world”, but these guys were also bombing fedra committing gorilla warfare, so I don’t see a world were they would have offered the cure to everyone.

[@peterrobson9920]

As a father of a teenage daughter..my world begins and ends with her 100% I’d do the same

[@markonagy5015]

“the Grocery Store of The Walking Dead” … Im fucking dying 😂

[@laurenjulia1877]

I don’t think you’re asking the right question here. It’s not if you would choose to have Ellie die in the procedure for your kid’s future, it whether you would sacrifice your own kid for the sake of every other person to have a future. But I’m one of the few people that doesn’t think it’s “right” to let the procedure happen. I don’t believe the rest of humanity should be all on one child. And just because she would choose it, after experiencing so much horribleness, that Ellie doesn’t also deserve to be able to experience life in whatever form it’s meant for her to have. Why should the weight of the world be on one person? I don’t believe Ellie doesn’t also deserve a life in the world she was born into.

[@onenacho1237]

The best explanation is that it's not a question of saving the world vs saving Elle. They are one and the same. He did save the world.

[@BluEx22329]

The greatness of the story is you can make a great case either way as to whos right or wrong. Because no one was fully right or wrong

[@vincentwalker3280]

When Ellie asked Joel about Marlene's well-being, he didn't answer her.

[@chrefboho13]

I could never give my ten year old daughter up. The world is already as y so cruel, whose to say it’s any better if they come up with a cure? Plus they said it might work, not that killing Ellie will 100 percent produce a cure for everyone. I’m with Joel on this one

[@JoseRuiz-yh2eh]

39:45 imo, yes. We see the infected in the first two eps, and then in 5. That’s 3 eps out of 9. How are you supposed to feel the importance of Ellie’s sacrifice if you barely saw the threat?

[@Roman-tu3vh]

In the show that shootout hits different because in the game you taking part in it and you just trying not to get your character killed

[@shaunworth2754]

I've played both games and i still stick to my guns and as a father myself... To hell with saving the world. I 100% agree with Joel 👊

[@j2lewis]

Seeing TV only watchers engage in the same debates we had in 2013 about the morality of everything is fascinating to see. Also really really excited to see what happens when we get to 2. Cant wait for the chaos

[@felixr6307]

It wasn’t the one only hope. They tried the procedure several times per the audio recorders you can find in the first game.

[@amartin3893]

It is an assumption that Marlene and the Fireflys were right about Ellie, and that their procedure would work. Killing Ellie could well have doomed humanity 100%. There is an equal possibility Joel, by doing what he did, has saved humanity. A living Ellie, or even Ellie's children, hold the answer to the cure. It's not even certain Ellie's birth is the reason for her immunity. Her mother could have been immune too! She hadn't turned when Marlene put her down. I'm reminded of what evil David said in the previous episode, "everything happens for a reason".

[@MayLily]

Joel’s actions will have major consequences moving forward, but I wonder how much they will actually change as they adapt the storyline for season 2, especially now that everyone and their mama loves Pedro Pascal and watches the show mainly for him..

[@miguelfmyers]

I know this comment might seem crazy but after seeing this episode it reminded me of knock at the cabin. When I saw both pieces of art I thought to myself I’d save my loved one as well, even if it means dooming the world. I know it sounds incredibly selfish but when your loved one dies it feels like the world ends. When i finished knock at the cabin and last of us I ended up agreeing with Joel. The world had its chance.😭

[@DJ_SquallYT]

I think what makes the ending is great is the complexity of what the characters go through. Marlene's moral dilemna, Joel's moral dilemna, by the end Ellie wanting her life to mean something and had that choice ripped from her. The show has always been about the consequences and at the end you won but did you really? This is why the game's story is still talked about. The fact the non gamer audience has a chance to experience this is a gift. I'm happy people now have the opportunity to experience it.

[@hoseaxci2419]

Great aftershow. Great season of the last of us. Finally a great, live action, worthy game adaptation. Im not ready for season2 because of reasons. Thanks for the aftershows John. Can't wait for more mando season 3 aftershows

[@joe_dns4625]

On the after show podcast, Druckmann talked about the choice and talked about a soldier who’d been captured with his own dad and what the government in question gave up to get that soldier back and if it was the right choice, and his dad said, you’re asking me 2 questions. If you’re asking me as the head of the country, then no, but if you’re asking me as that kid’s dad, I’d give them the whole country.

[@felixpats7955]

John gets it, unlike most of reviewers...

[@baylorgirl2013]

There had to have been a way to do the surgery and only take a sample, not causing the death of Ellie. You can always go back later if needed. Wouldn't it be better to have a living sample?

[@benjiebarker]

As ellie’s guardian, for 14 years old, joel has to choose life for ellie

[@ricomorehouse7704]

When they played Gustavo Santaolalla iconic theme during Marlene and Anna’s scene I lost it 😢🙏🏾🙌🏾❤️

[@Roman-tu3vh]

Even in the 2nd game its indicated that Ellie 100% would've agree to that operation

[@therick764]

More action sequences would have been the cheery on top of a great show. We're they "needed to advance the story"? Maybe not, but sometimes little embellishments can really add something special.

[@debrasham880]

I think there is no debate: to scarify Ellie is a morally right thing to do, but not a human thing to do. Joel’s action is a basic human nature. And we are all only human.

[@EscapePodcast]

If they kill Ellie to try making a cure but fail... they lose Ellie, the only person who resists the cordecepys. Also, if they found a cure, who's to say the Fireflies wouldn't use it to force people to join them.?

[@knuckles2591]

Joel Goldberg from the show You moment @ 1:00:07 😂

[@rodmbaker]

As a parent of 2 I would never let them reach the opperating table. But, being a parent aside I don't really agree with the idea of sacrificing the only known immune person on a guess. Did they skip blood sample testing and jump right to brain surgery?

[@pse2020]

The symbolism behind Ellie giving birth to Ellie was a no brainer :) the flashbacks was so good in this show. With that said i acully feel the game did this story better then the show.

[@fy4b230]

This part of the game takes 1 hour tops and that’s with the added infected scene. 3 hours maybe on grounded as a first playthrough because you die over and over. So yeah, this episode wasn’t rushed at all.

[@afanofpeanuts7381]

This show was astonishing. The pacing is great, but I wished it was longer, that's all. I also wished there were a little more interplay with the clickers. I loved this show regardless. 9.5/10.

[@Kaede177]

I can't wait for the "remaster" of season 1!

[@slimhimbo]

Everyone is asking if they’ll keep Joel around because of Pedro Pascal, but anyone who has played or seen TLOU 2 knows that’s he’s all over the game regardless of the turn of events

[@alexdelvalle3693]

I've heard that season 2 will make drastic changes from the second game story to make more seasons and have a certain someone stay with the show longer.

[@benjaminanders7261]

That’s twice that Pedro Pascal has saved someone from surgery 😂

[@afanofpeanuts7381]

Everybody also hated the casting of Heath Ledger originally and look how that turned out.... the rest is history

[@BluEx22329]

I wouldn't trust the fireflies with something that valuable

[@Steven-ed6sc]

John says "lets say we lived in that world". I mean we kind of did lol

[@roadhog2284]

Also its not just about Joel has lost a daughter its about not only everyone he's lost on this journey but everything he's done on this trip he only did thinking at the end of it it will be him and elli and they wanted to take that from him

[@SynthTerror]

Explaining how Ellie is immune is the midichlorians of TLOU. Also, Marlene didn't tell Ellie either. That didn't work for me. In the game, Ellie drowns and they prep her for surgery while she's still unconscious. The show makes it apparent that she was cognizant and Marlene didn't tell her she'd have to die. They changed things that didn't need to be changed.

[@TechCitizen]

While it is every parent's will to save their child, I'm curious if decision is same if adding a clarification if the parents know the child WANT to attempt in making a difference for the humanity

[@kellyvalence5323]

But is it a decision a child should even be making? It’s been 20 years already, wait til she’s old enough to give consent. The rush & risk of this operation was because they didn’t really value her life

[@TechCitizen]

@@kellyvalence5323 You'll be surprised there are plenty of (teenage) kids that have set there goals and passions. The creators designed Ellie's arc to progressively strengthen her conviction with each loss. Her feelings were summed up at end of giraffe as well as at the very end with Joel, where she talks about Riley, Tess, and Sam before Joel interrupted and then have Joel swear.

[@shixter]

Never have I seen a discussion of the potential of a non-fatal surgery? "It grows on the Brain" they say - ON - could it be possible to remove samples without killing her? Yeah, it's brain surgery, but that is not a fatal procedure per se

[@njultraflickshow3646]

The thing that makes me say that Joel was 100% right in the show is that they have been telling the audience since the beggining that it is impossible to make a cure/vaccine, even with modern world technology, there was 0% chance they wouldve made a cure, no chance, so instead of joel stealing the world of a cure, he saved Ellie from very desperate people with good intentions but nothing more beyond that.

[@vincentwalker3280]

Joel needs credit for sparing those two nurses.

[@TYMMSTER]

This was an excellent show.

[@johncampea]

Thanks!

[@TYMMSTER]

@@johncampea you’re very welcome, plus you get extra point with the Unforgiven/Clint Eastwood quote as I was just talking about that exact quote with my wife like 2 hours ago. Weird, but cool coincidence.

[@CarlosGarcia-jn2xp]

I guess it ultimately comes down to this....... people who have the same DNA as Joel and those who do not because then there would be no dilemma. And If those who have what Joel is made of don't exist, then nothing matters In the end.

[@franchinab9469]

GUTTED from that huge spoiler from part 2. actually in mourning today i’m totally heartbroken

[@jasonedwards1425]

Yea he gave a warning at the beginning of the stream about potential spoilers but you would've missed it if you joined in live unfortunately. If it makes you feel any better, it will probably happen in the first episode since it will be the driving force of the entire season.

[@jimbof3571]

In TLOU 2 when the Doctor was ask what if it was Abby twice he refused to answer.

[@Badong1981]

im a parent. and i'd say yep. it may not be right. but i understand why Joel did it and cant blame him for doing so.

[@Badong1981]

love the discussion. love how the creator of the game put that moral dilemma on to the gamers'/viewers' shoulders. it's nit a question if joel did is right or wrong anymore. it all goes down to "would you have done the same thing" - as a father of two, yes i would.

[@e3vL1]

Not sure if it's the sound design or/or camera is too far away (especially the 1:1 reenactments) , but the show felt more like a play while the video game felt like a movie. Hope they change it in season 2

[@anthonyzepeda31]

The game shows how Joel and ellie get close. Granted you have more time to spend in the game, but by the end you know exactly that Joel would not let them go thru with the operation that would kill ellie.

[@MarekWachowski]

Giraffic Park in this episode :)

[@vincentwalker3280]

I don't think Ellie would have done it because she found someone new (Joel) to love and explore the future with.

[@alcorgarcia4882]

As a father, I would've 100% done the same. Fuq the world if I have to sacrifice any of my children for it.

[@derelict06]

I’d do it for my girlfriend, I can’t imagine the world destroying inferno a parent would rain down

[@EFANZPro]

Sacrifice Ellie in order for them to try on a cure that wasn't even guaranteed? Hope is good but hope can also be dangerous

[@afanofpeanuts7381]

Oh yeah, John.... easily the BEST SHOW on Television.

[@jimbof3571]

I know Ashley for the show Blinndspot. She a form of the FBI.

[@asiagreisz2807]

I wouldn't kill Ellie on a whim, though. What happens if it doesn't work? If you kill Ellie, you don't have an opportunity to try something different for the cure. You would only have one chance. I wouldn't risk it.

[@digitallystephanie142]

HBO has already said there making major changes to the season 2 adaptation

[@kohl4life]

showrunners and Neil both said major story changes coming for next season. so we will see what happens.

[@rupindersingh2312]

Ellie was 14, could she really make the right choice?

[@LE-hq6ej]

This! Not only that, but she's a traumatized and depressed 14 year old who is suffering from survivor's guilt. There's a reason we don't let 14 year olds sign contracts or make life changing decisions on their own.

[@manipulatingyou]

I predict in TLOU Part 3 Dina's baby will be immune.

[@grumpyrock]

Loved the show, overall I would have liked a little more time between events to marinate on the things that just happened. Also would have liked to have David’s camp and ending both be 2 episodes (add 2 more) to get to know those characters more as well as create some more buildup. Also would have loved a longer rampage from Joel. But that’s just personal. I just wanna see fools getting killed lol.

[@louranzofletcherprods]

Hey man just got a iPhone XR a few days ago

[@Enrique-et4rr]

I disagree that the fireflies were just good people trying to save the world. The show and game made it clear that they were not good people and ultimately became oppressors in their own way (similar to the Kansas City people who overthrew FEDRA). If they had developed a cure, I believe they would have held the world (or at least their enemies) hostage with it and used it to solidify their power. Also, if they were good people, I think they would have given Ellie a choice at the very least.

[@jimbof3571]

Best show EVER.

[@hjames78]

I got to finish these games before the 2nd season starts. I have all the games and they are good but never finished them

[@Stallion259]

I find it amusing John gave a spoiler warning in a spoiler review.

[@jimbof3571]

Joel did the right thing. How would they get the word out there is a cure? You would have to risk your life traveling across the country. They would have turned before getting the cure.

[@remerbulldog5144]

Joe knew that Ellie would agree to the decision. That’s why he had to lie. Marlene was just doing her job. If it wasn’t for her, Joel would’ve never met Ellie.

[@josephwoods5925]

Another parent would have killed any number of people to get Ellie TO that table on the off chance the result would save their child.

[@roadhog2284]

And the dr wasn't just a guy standing there Joel said unhook her the dr stepped up to him with a scalpel said no well u brought a knife to a gun fight lol bye

[@kkjhn41]

Can't disagree with your take on Marlene more. That business about Marlene being the only person who understands about how difficult it is to sacrifice Ellie's life is just as much bullshit on her part as Joel's justifying ambushing, robbing and murdering innocent people as being about survival. Anna and Marlene were friends all their lives. Anna knew Marlene very well, which is why she did not ask her to take Ellie and raise her. She told her to put her with a family that would. She knew that Marlene has no maternal instincts, that all she wants is to be the Che Guevara of Boston. We are shown that when her first response to even doing that much for her friend and her friends' child is to say she can't. Anna has to bully her into it. Marlene does not want to hold or even look at Ellie. She has none of the reactions most people would have to seeing a newborn. Anna gave her Ellie to place her with a family. But Marlene decides the safest place for Ellie is in a FEDRA orphanage/military school. Not with a family who will love her and give her the life of being part of a family. No, she lets her grow up institutionalized, first in an orphanage where she never gets love or the sense of family, then a military school run by the so-called fascists Marlene is trying to overthrow. Where she has no friends (other than Riley briefly) is bullied and mistreated, punished and indoctrinated. Trained as she said to kill Fireflies. She is on her way to a life in the military and has decided that being an officer in a FEDRA that she believes is what is keeping the QZ from falling into anarchy (which from what we learn is not exactly wrong) is what she wants to do. Marlene has made her safe by putting her in the position where she is more liokely to be killed by one of Marlenes' Fireflies or in one of their bomb attacks than she is from the infected. Ellie has never had family, love or a sense of belonging all due to the only decision Marlene has ever made about her promise to Anna. Marlene never meets Ellie until she is 14 and only because she finds her when she and some other Fireflies come looking for Riley, find her dead and Ellie bitten. Marlene stops the other Fireflies from shooting her and takes her back to Firefly HQ. She chains her up perhaps out of guilt for failing in her promise to keep her safe, so she lets her live right up until she turns and has to have her killed. But Ellie doesn't turn, and Marlene starts having her tested each day. For three weeks she is chained and tested and not once does Marlene come see her or talk to her. Finally Marlene contacts the Fireflies doing work on a cure and receives a message to bring Ellie to the statehouse where they will collect her. This is the message she shows to Kim who is bugging her over the "random girl" Marlene has chained up. This is when she finally talks to Ellie but only about her purpose as the cure. She learns nothing of her mother or how Marlene came to be the one to put her in an orphanage. She hands Ellie off to Tess and Joel, not because she thinks they will keep her safe but because she knows they want to get paid and will do what they need to in order to deliver here and get paid. The next time she meets Ellie is when she is recovering from a flash bang in the hospital. Soon after Ellie recovers, she is sedated and prepped for surgery. She has lied to about what's happening with Joel and not told that she is being sacrificed because a doctor thinks he knows how he can make a cure by dissecting her brain to get at the mutated cordyceps there. Marlene tells Joel what is going on and when he objects, she goes into her I was there when she was born, and I love her more than you and hurt more than you and understand everything more than you possibly can. Later in the garage when Joel tells Marlene that choosing to sacrifice Ellie isn't her choice to make Marlene say it isn't his either but that it is Ellies choice and that she and he know that she would choose to do it. Except for two things. She has been around Ellie only three times in 14 years for only minutes at a time. She has spoken to her for even less time than that. She has no idea that Ellie loves puns, that she wants to be an astronaut, that she loves comics or is afraid of ending up alone. She doesn't know what she's done, what she's been through, what her life has been like or anything really about her. She sure doesn't know enough about her to say she knows what she would say if asked to end her life for a possible cure. Which is how that question has to be worded because even today no scientist working on something like this could say success was anything more than a possibility, never a certainty. She is also lying when she says it should be Ellie's decision. It's why she never gave her a chance to be asked the question. Because if Ellie said no she would have let the doctor sedate her and go ahead with the surgery anyway. She has feeling for Ellie as Anna's daughter. But she doesn't know Ellie so she can't really love Ellie. Especially the love a parent has for a child. She may have even felt bad for doing it but she would have killed Ellie no matter what Ellie would have wanted because she wants to save the world because that's what gives meaning to her life. Not the love of this child. Joel loves her not because he lost Sarah and he's trying to fill that loss. Because she is family. Not cargo, or the material for a cure. Because of all they have been through together, because he knows her as a person. Joel may be selfish, but he also knows what a parent feels and what a parent knows. A parent knows that no 14-year-old child no matter how extraordinary or seemingly mature for her age is equipped to make this kind of decision. Especially one who feels the survivors' guilt she has over Riley, Tess, Sam and Henry exacerbated by her own immunity. They died when I didn't because I'm immune so to make up for it, to make it right I have to die to save everyone else. That is too much for a child with an underdeveloped prefrontal lobe to process. Were she an adult making that decision a parent may hate it but would have to respect it as their decision. But not a child, no way, no how.

[@thehumanehuman9456]

A world that has such disregard for human life and would kill a child with such lack of care, that world does not deserve to be saved. I’m a father and I support Joel’s decision! 28:23

[@samfisher6606]

I think the giraffe was real

[@stereochoir]

it was confirmed, check the post on insta

[@ashleybree1407]

My personal thoughts on the moral quandary is that Joel taking away Ellie’s choice was wrong. The doctor’s taking away Ellie’s choice was wrong. And that the ONLY way I would be ok with Ellie’s death to save humanity is if she consented to it fully understanding what that meant… so in the end it is wrong both ways even though I fully understand why Joel did what he did and that if I was in his shoes I would have saved Ellie as well… even if it was wrong

[@somerandom414]

If you thought that was dark, in the game I kill the 2 other doctors too 😂

[@ABIEZHANELADYZHANE]

regarding Joel decision, I would do the same. I saw many bullshyyeet in the name of so called greater good but selfish smell. have a great ride!