The LAST Rust Drama

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[@JensRoland]

They keep having drama on the Rust forums because they can’t delete the unhelpful garbage comments and dead/invalid arguments until everybody stops borrowing them

[@jakubgiesler6150]

Cannot borrow arguments as mutable because it also borrowed is immutable

[@JensRoland]

@@jakubgiesler6150your argument is so simultaneously unhelpful and technically correct that I’m surprised it’s not posted on the Rust forum

[@SaHaRaSquad]

@@jakubgiesler6150 Not a problem, most of them clone() another opinion anyway.

[@AnnasVirtual]

i never seen a programming language have drama happen so often

[@metaphoricallyalive8109]

0 days since last Rust drama

[@ea_naseer]

there was a time when we said politics and programming/science should stay seperated. In the present day, with tech twitter, there's been a movement that the two should come together and it's foolish for them to be seperated hence... 😂😂

[@jacobwilson8275]

It gets more coverage people because like the language.

[@iojourny]

@@ea_naseer Politics and programming are only separated when the ones in charge of the organization care more about the tech than they do about politics.

[@conorx3]

Java lawsuits:

[@steveh7922]

As a self-nominated Senior Ambassador, I decree all periods shall be placed after quotations and that this is what "the community". wants

[@carlpittenger]

we "the community" (tm) agree with you

[@pau1phi11ips]

​@@carlpittengeryou didn't even use a period.

[@carlpittenger]

@@pau1phi11ips lol it's only if you're writing serious prose, then you put the period after the closing quotation mark; you don't write with strong diction when texting

[@robonator2945]

​@@carlpittenger wh, okay first, a youtube comment isn't "texting", second, how tf are you going to pull the "it's casual conversation, you don't need to follow strict syntactical rules" arugment, and then deadass use a semicolon? I'm 100% all for more people using semicolons but it's a pretty disjointed argument to say that "it's a different form of communication with less strict grammar/syntax, here's a casual semicolon". The reality is the only reason the punctuation before the semicolon rule took over was because it was easier, not because it was "more correct". It's a bit like how everyone says PEMDAS, but everyone uses PEJMDAS*. It's easier to hand-write if the punctuation comes before the quotes since there isn't as much of a back-and-forth. This, of course, doesn't apply when using a keyboard, so all that "writing punctuation a bit like this," does is make it more confusing to read since you're quoting something that wasn't actually said or is even representative of what might have been said. A quote is interpreted in isolation, and punctuation isn't a unary operator; it's designed to link distinct segments. So, if you interpret a quote in isolation, (as all quotes are) and you end it with a piece of punctuation that exists to link two things it's syntactically invalid. It's a bit like saying func(5+). Now, if that *_is_* noticably more convenient then fine, it's minor enough and most people will get your meaning so it's not a big issue, but that doesn't make it correct within the rules you've set out. It's a bit like -> in programming. (which I also despise because it's unclear and annoyingly unnecessary, but it's a similar concept that most people seem fine with. so I'll just take the L on that one... for now...) *J meaning juxtaposition, i.e. 5(8) = 40; It's also called implicit multiplication depending on who you ask. This rule is so steadfast and followed that even when the first few books were begining to rigidly define an order of operations a lot of them SAID they followed PEMDAS, but actually followed PEJMDAS if you looked at their equations and their answers. This I'd argue actually is meaningfully useful since it's nearly impossible to misinterpret it's use is so widespread and it reduces mental operator overload trying to parse out complicated expresions.

[@DexieTheSheep]

​@@pau1phi11ipswell acktschuyually...

[@flipperiflop]

This whole thing seems to me like a powergrab - they want him out of the spot, so they can have someone else instead... but it's a programming language, not the government!

[@dixztube]

Ya that’s how most of these things are. Saw that with all the corporate social activistism too lol

[@MichaelCampbell01]

When you get 3 people in a room, it turns into a government. Every. Time.

[@BeamMonsterZeus]

It's trying to break into some sense of mainstream popularity with this noise. This is desperate.

[@Vorenus875]

When you’re releasing more drama than the JavaScript ecosystem is releasing frameworks you’re really cooking 😎

[@arjix8738]

This might actually be true

[@nskeip]

I just love how quickly self-made ambassador deciedes if someone has a good or bad "track record".

[@SaHaRaSquad]

Yeah someone who decides that one of the most productive contributors doesn't have a good track record due to one well-intentioned mistake shouldn't ever get a position of power beyond flushing a toilet.

[@well.8395]

Put that damn period inside the "quotation marks!"

[@SaHaRaSquad]

@@well.8395 "No"!!!

[@Satook]

@@well.8395you know some countries aren’t the US right?

[@well.8395]

@@Satook Someone doesn't understands the sarcasm.

[@jaskij]

Just FYI: David wrote a WASM runtime meant for isolating proc macros *four years ago*. And everybody, always, knew that lack of sandboxing is a problem. I figure he grew tired of the problem being ignored.

[@shaftymaze]

I thought the inventor of docker said docker wouldn't have happened if wasm with isolation existed?

[@SaHaRaSquad]

@@shaftymaze Docker is 10 years old, so a runtime written 4 years ago doesn't have any effect on it.

[@jaskij]

@@shaftymaze not to mention, said runtime has specific purpose. Most proc macros don't need any sort of IO, be it file or network.

[@gljames24]

​@@SaHaRaSquadThat's not what they said. They said "IF" isolated wasm had existed 10 years ago, they wouldn't have made docker.

[@SaHaRaSquad]

@@gljames24 Yes, so why are you repeating it as if I misunderstood something?

[@kyguypi]

As a rule, I never trust an argument that depends on me believing the person making the argument is clairvoyant. If your issue is what someone else "was really thinking" or their "actual intention" you're gonna have to prove you can read minds.

[@BeamMonsterZeus]

Hell yes. Great comment

[@disguysn]

Or at the very least present the proper context to make this argument.

[@BeamMonsterZeus]

@@disguysn That is dangerously close to strawmanning

[@kyguypi]

@@BeamMonsterZeus I call it "the psychogenetic fallacy": your argument is wrong because of what you were really thinking or feeling when you said it.

[@mr.togrul--9383]

Rust Council = Jedi Council Sith = Zig community "Use the Force" = AKA the borrow checker "Join the dark side" = AKA Manual Memory management

[@darukutsu]

Rust having unsafe memory management built-in: You supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them.

[@yldrmcs]

zig is better for writing highly-optimized performant software. I hate languages that make important technical decisions on behalf of me and do things automatically.

[@Ewoof]

Yep the classic forget about all the good things you've done and make the one mistake you made your identity.

[@ChungusTheLarge]

You eat ONE BABY

[@complexity5545]

@@ChungusTheLargeLOL...

[@VACatholic]

@@ChungusTheLarge Except when these people get caught abusing kids that gets immediately memory holed. It's only when you challenge the power structure or make it easy for someone to make an irrelevant power play that you get rail roaded. The rust community is either mentally ill, or run by people involved with demons. I don't know which is more likely at this point.

[@ChungusTheLarge]

@@VACatholic Switch to Holy C?

[@VACatholic]

@@ChungusTheLarge I've never been a rust fan, but I would just use a language and not get caught up in the so-called "community". These people neither know nor care about each other. It's all fake.

[@nexovec]

replace every sentence in the article with "I have a giant ego," and it won't lose any informational value.

[@darukutsu]

%s/./I have a giant ego/g

[@stacklysm]

"Self-proclaimed community ambassador" says everything

[@BeamMonsterZeus]

Haha

[@jupitersky]

What the hell is wrong with people? This guy is an invaluable resource and yet he's been tied to the tracks. Also why is this kid being allowed to define David's fate? This whole thing is just so idiotic.

[@jesperpersson9388]

Yep, he's being cancelled. It's a shame ThePhd was treated in a bad way (in part dtolnay's fault from what I understand) and the best thing would be if these people could hash it out and ThePhd somehow returns. Now it seems rather that dtolnay might be forced out of the community as well. How short-sighted can people be? Half the ecosystem is written by the guy. Serde is a top 5 reason why I got so excited about Rust.

[@wilder6408]

You are reading a random opinion written by a rando (probably college student, judging from the juvenile tone). The "self-appointed ambassador" thing should have been the red flag where we stopped reading. In fact the real worry is that people (as seen here in the comments) are somehow thinking this rando REALLY IS the ambassador for anything.

[@BeamMonsterZeus]

We delegate too much power to random and often toxic commenters on Twitter/Reddit. Some people worship the upvote counter, and others have children to feed. Democracy isn't complete fascism, so the opinions of others are only just that. Quit victimizing him, as he needs to grow a set and start making decisions! He's not a celebrity, so wtf is this comment about being cancelled? Is that all people register?

[@linkernick5379]

Because in the internets the opinions of a professor and a kid become equally important somehow.

[@0ia]

I agree, super disrespectful and idiotic. It reduces my faith in the world to see anyone alienate others like this.

[@NicolaiSyvertsen]

The more people claim it is all about technology the less it is. Never fails.

[@allesarfint]

Something that I want to point out is the more level headed approach Prime had for this drama compared to that of the trademark one, is nice to see that he's trying to not stir up more drama and provides more thoughtful comments on the issue.

[@ThePrimeTimeagen]

I am genuinely trying here

[@christopher8641]

​@@ThePrimeTimeagen its genuinely noticed. I love Rust but its kind of (incredibly) easy to poke fun at recently. For how logical one might expect FOSS and engineers to be, we are desperately, painfully, blazingly-lacking in level-headedness sometimes.

[@fredrickdemello2260]

he is literally trying to trivialize the issue and mint it for views and attention. LOL. giving tolnay the benefit of the doubt when he didn't come forward and apologize when everyone was apologizing 3 months ago (triplet, griffin, conf organizers, mara, etc) is absurd. he only made this gist after someone revealed this guy's name, if he actually felt bad about it he would have apologized right away.

[@allesarfint]

@@fredrickdemello2260 Why would dtolnay apologize at the beginning when he wasn't even part of the RustConf organization? He just voiced an opinion but everyone makes it seem like he himself pulled the plug on the keynote.

[@BreytnerNascimento]

The problem with Rust is that it doesn't have a sole (person or group) decision maker. Whatever people did not like about what happened with Turbo, at least there was no drama. DHH said no TypeScript. Community got pissed on him and his decision. People moved on. However, when it comes to Rust it always the foundation, the council, the community, etc so that there is always this collective feeling that we all should have a say in it and all opinions revolves around bureaucracy and "what's best for the community".

[@piotrj333]

I actually agree. So much bullshit drama or bad decisions of many members of linux community was shutdown by Linus Torvalds. Someone like Linus Torvalds is needed.

[@markmywords3817]

I think the key here is that languages or frameworks can start out at the individual level, but should also adapt to the growing community needs by stepping down with institutions in place so that their invention outlives their inventors. DHH has always been the Rails' BDFL and many popular contributors moved on to other languages/frameworks in part because of it. e.g. Rust, Go, Elixir A good example of this kind of transition would be the original source of the BDFL title: Guido Van Rossum (Python). He stepped down of his BDFL title with no successor in favor of the Python Software Foundation.

[@markmywords3817]

And DHH being an often disagreeable BDFL had a side-effect of Rails not progressing as fast as it could've because of the exodus of both top contributors and in the core team members. Even Laravel, a framework heavily inspired by Rails, has outpaced Rails a bit in terms of feature set. In order for a BDFL setup to really work, the "benevolent" part often has to stay in place, else a fork or an exodus could happen.

[@BreytnerNascimento]

@@markmywords3817 Python: a mature language with mature specs. Rust: a young language that is missing a lot of standard features. Turbo/Rails/DHH-stuff: DHH stuff that is just an option among others.

[@samanthaqiu3416]

democracy is the death of greatness

[@boeyensmichael]

All this rust drama makes me want to change my project to go. It just feels like it’s gonna implode in on itself.

[@complexity5545]

Maybe write in both because its a toss up.

[@keyboard_g]

Projects run by councils almost always end up like this. Political disaster and infighting.

[@FrankJonen]

Someone creates something for the Rust community. Rust Foundation: "This is ours now!" Five years later: "Why aren't there new crates being developed?"

[@SimonBuchanNz]

Uhh, what? Nobody said anything like that at any point, let alone in this video, as far as I can tell.

[@FrankJonen]

@@SimonBuchanNz it’s alluded to in the article by “nicely” forcing someone to give up their work to the foundation.

[@SimonBuchanNz]

@@FrankJonen but is alonely0 the foundation? Prime kinda skipped over who they even were, and I don't remember them from my time on IRLO (which I assume this is on)

[@FrankJonen]

@@SimonBuchanNz hence my comment. If it happens, that’s it for Rust’s future.

[@AlFredo-sx2yy]

@@SimonBuchanNz alonely0's repo has a javascript password generator and a paper proposing "a new networking protocol" but no code, i think i dont need to explain further why is it that you dont know who alonely0 is. Because they are nobody. They just felt big for some reason and went and was bold enough to claim that they are some kind of community ambassador and spew a bunch of nonsense. He even has a crate that is a simple array wrapper that is 90% comments in the code and he says that it will probably get into the core. Which as far as i know, is not something that ever happened. I dont even know why anyone would even want that in the core. So yeah, there is a good reason you have not heard of this person.

[@Beryesa.]

Rust is the red hat of programming languages now. Chaotic good or evil, you can't be sure.

[@serge4192]

agreed lmao

[@RogerValor]

This is so hard to bear, I would love to jump in that discussion, and instead of DTolnay, ask that alonely0 guy to step back instead. Honestly if I were in their circle, that would be my only comment.

[@BigFx]

Quote from the dude himself in the thread after he got roasted multiple times "the thing is, in a week I won't have time in my life to deal with this crap, and it's not like I have that much time now. I've done my part, which was raising my points; thus, I'll see myself out, so I'm not the discussion topic anymore. Goodbye y'all. Do it right." IMO he was just trolling the whole way and got bored after.

[@n0xx295]

So many FOSS projects had their potential squandered due to the ceaseless bickering of neurotic individuals.... And I can't help to see Rust heading down that exact same path.

[@lavitagrande8449]

I feel like the Rust foundation is doing everything in its power to rediscover Heinlein's definition "bad luck"

[@ryanleemartin7758]

nice

[@NotMarkKnopfler]

Rust is bust. I spoke to management a week ago about moving some legacy c++ into Rust. The response: We don't trust the stewards of the language. Nope. We stick with c++.

[@h2_]

great decision by management

[@danielsan901998]

A gradual refactor to modern C++ with unit tests is probably more feasible that a full rewrite from zero in a new language.

[@SaHaRaSquad]

​@@h2_ More like a decision based on gut feeling. The reality is that Rust won't be allowed to fail like that as major tech giants like MS, Google, Amazon etc already ship Rust software and invest in it. This is just online drama that will end as soon as the whiners get distracted by something else on Twitter.

[@anarchoyeasty3908]

Your management is stupid. It's in the windows and Linux kernels, rust isn't going anywhere.

[@anonymousalexander6005]

@@SaHaRaSquadIf they invested more into the Rust Project and not the Rust Foundation there probably wouldn’t be all this drama in the first place lol.

[@sealsharp]

Your use of the R in the thumbnail is probably illegal. What a dangerous man.

[@4ohf]

as a noob just learning programming, maybe learning cmake isn't so bad if this is the alternative 😂

[@Jakub7]

lmfao

[@eltreum1]

You should learn a more established language like C/C++/Py/JS/Java/C# for your employment's sake. Companies have most of their years of legacy code in those languages and looking to hire devs to work on those the most. C was actually developed in structured academia by disciplined computer scientists to satisfy engineering specs and quality and established the industry. Nearly every language is derived from or backed in C/C++ or tries to do the same things better like Rust. Rust was a pet project that is growing into an unmanageable monster from what I see. If you are a student, first think about the types of things you want to program for your career and focus on those industries preferred languages. Rust IMO is a very poor choice as a first language since it can stump even senior devs that program in multiple languages and almost no companies have adopted it for anything consequential. I would say Python is a better starter language since it was originally made to teach programming and will remain useful as a secondary language and allow fast prototyping of ideas.

[@radomane]

“Binary blob terrorism”

[@DePhoegonIsle]

You know.... they would never appologize, never admit their mistakes... and are effectively the worst of the left authoritarianism there is. Seriously, the undertone about 'making sure that 3rd party crates don't get too popular, and that someone doesn't have control' when in this situation is earned by being useful and beneficial to coding & a project and structure... is kinda like 'If you do to good, we'll take steps against you'. Seriously though, This seemed like the end goal, to discredit someone & take their major packages, than attempt to look like the good guys... while the one who was targeted was basically gagged and mugged, and all the people doing things against him some how have the exact same story.... the exact same story. (Like you don't even get that from witnesses that are testifying against someone who held up a gas station). When stories start to appear as if the are identical and could legitimately be part of the same exact narrative & written by the same person with no deviations whatsoever..... That's when I start looking at what isn't be allowed to be talked about or said by those telling you 'how it was' & making assertions about what others said or are saying. Though I seriously got to ask this.... in what universe do people around a language library akin to c, c#, C++, java, etc.. like rust not think that cutting measurable time off of build projects from the language is not something that developers using that language would care about. You know the only People whom interact with your damn'd language to begin with. This seems targeted at him for reasons of being to prolific and just using the other reasons as an excuse. Like, the only other events i can think of that do this are in the form of hostile takeovers, and political smears against those whom were gaining to much power and not being handpicked by the 'council'? Frankly this is preventing me from even attempting to learn rust after my java modding ways. (Where I'm in game dev path myself, but I'll be honest making my own program to do what i need it to do isn't beyond my intent either, and if I would have to learn any of the real languages to do it... Rust would have been on that list as well)

[@SimonBuchanNz]

It wasn't exactly as binary as "do you want shorter build times or not" - the complaints were about security, related regulatory requirements, and making such a big change in a patch(?) version, especially without any opt out. Binary cargo payloads are nothing new: plenty of crates have either opt in or out out binary crates.

[@MegaMech]

Clearly, this guy is tired of working with David and finding every way possible to get rid of him. Yee

[@d1ngd0]

These things make me like go even more. When they have drama they respond appropriately and as boringly as possible which makes things blow over.

[@SaHaRaSquad]

Go is a pragmatic language created by a company to solve their problems, Rust is an elegant language trying to do things the correct way. Neither is wrong by themselves but it seems those aspects are reflected in the communities.

[@isodoubIet]

"I made this" "you made this?" "I made this" -- The Rust Project

[@myentertainment55]

This video should be series and posted every week😂 Isn't Rust has at least one every week? At least lately.

[@actualFix]

A new one happened, at the time of writing, about 3 hours ago

[@insomnyawolf]

​@@actualFixWhat is it this time?

[@blackfighter11]

Another Rust drama? Must be Saturday.

[@JonathanTheZombie]

22:28 “you will own no repos and you will be happy”

[@complexity5545]

You know those Myers-Briggs tests you take during a college orientation or at a new job; the rust leaders don't have the good letters.

[@spuzzdawg]

Myers Briggs is complete nonsense though.

[@htomar_dev]

Keeping up with the Rustaceans

[@complexity5545]

Yep, that's an appropriate title.

[@Altrue]

"I hate drama, and that's why I read every single post I could find about it on social media. That's why I will name myself community ambassador, and that's why I will write a huge post to talk about it on a forum that's supposed to be technically minded. Also let's ban the guy building 70% of the top 10 crates for one thing that we unilateraly judged was a mistake." ...Okay 🤣

[@thomassynths]

Clickbait title. It's not the LAST. It's the LATEST.

[@darukutsu]

Waiting for nightly rust drama.

[@Antagon666]

Umm, last can also mean previous. Eg. last night, last September, last year

[@4idenn]

I love how Prime is basically Programming Twitch's Asmongold lmao

[@ThePrimeTimeagen]

Goals

[@gpcureton]

Woof, that was a lot. Like "reading the comment section on NextDoor". The OP was flinging out speculation-as-factual-assertion like they got the value box at Costco.

[@complexity5545]

David is like one of the 4 horseman of rust....LOL. That guy holds one of the 4 pillars of the rust community's cornerstoness.....LOL All this side action is hilarious to me. Hilarious....Its like a soap opera for programmers. He's probably one of the only ones that hasn't been bought off; he has too many keys, so now they have to annex his projects. Now I know why I was skeptical. What if he had patent his software (or used a different license)?

[@SimonBuchanNz]

As cool as serde is, it could be rebuilt from scratch in a couple of weeks without reference to the original source. Heck, you could get a simple version in a day. Nobody's *actually* being held hostage here, even without it being under an OSI license.

[@andrewyork3869]

​@@SimonBuchanNzbuild yes could they maintain it with out is becoming a cluster Idk.

[@gbb1983]

I dont know Rust, but at this point, Im not even interested anymore lol jesus christ, ppl are so petty.

[@raidensama1511]

The language is great. The governance and certain characters leave less to be desired.

[@NostraDavid2]

Rust has so much drama - it clearly attracts the wrong people. It was on my list of things I still wanted to learn. Not anymore.

[@stacklysm]

Same, won't be "investing" my time on this one, only to have the rug pulled from under me in the future

[@JayVal90]

I saw it early on. They were filled with purple-haired insufferable people.

[@SimonBuchanNz]

As far as I can tell, being active on both the user and internal forums and using the language and all these crates... this is all a bunch of babies complaining that have no impact on the actual language. The only actual impact here is that your builds could have been a little faster.

[@Nina-cd2eh]

I swear people who say shit like this haven't even seen code outside of youtube videos. Boohoo over the drama, jesus christ...

[@AngelLoredo53]

I have experienced exactly this. I remember a few years ago I was super excited to write Rust, I wanted to make a Vulkan game engine written in Rust. I then discovered AI and came back to that Rust idea for a while only to find conversations infested with zealots, crappy drama, rewrite-everything-in-rust-syndrome, "yOu aRe sTuPiD iF yOu uSe C++", and now every time I think about Rust the first thing that comes to mind is the cancerous community and the weird videos/tutorials surrounding it. Man, I just want a serious professional group of people I can rely on, which should be essential for something as important as Rust, but oh well.

[@adambright5416]

Come feed the rain 'Cause I'm thirsty for your love Dancing underneath the skies of lust Yeah, feed the rain 'Cause without your love, my life Ain't nothing but this carnival of rust This song is not endorsed by Rust Foundation

[@LB767]

My god some people have way too much time on their hands. Alright so let's just make all these great crates closed source with paid licensing and see how that goes. I don't care, my work will pay for them no problem but let's see what all these edgelords on their moral high horse say then. Gosh

[@pebaz]

@ThePrimeTimeagen just wanted to say that man you're good at this thing you've created and grown here. Thanks for the high quality content. It has been refreshing listening to someone with a bit of understanding who's not afraid to voice opinions that are contrary to opposing public viewpoints.

[@gtsteel]

The elephant in the room here is that the proposed compile-time reflection system would make most of serde obsolete by making serialization too easy. Tolnay has a personal stake in stopping it as having it implemented would end his position of providing the current workaround. He definitely hid a conflict of interest in the RustConf drama. There is also no trade-off between performance and security that Tolnay claimed there was, as a reproducable binary would would have the same performance gains without looking like a supply-chain attack.

[@htspencer9084]

Agreed. His "forceful skepticism" seems a little sus.

[@RuslanKovtun]

Oh so that is what Rust's logo was for: to let people use it each time a dRama occurs.

[@user-lz2oh9zz4y]

I don't even 'hello, world' in rust. I'm here only for the drama

[@robonator2945]

Minor critique here with calling it a "binary payload", I mean that just sounds malicious as *_HELL_* . Wasn't it literally just "I'm making this ship as a binary to dramatically reduce build times, you can use the source if you want but it'll be it's own thing"? Yes "binary payload" would technically be acurate, but if I was delivering baby formula to you and said "here's the chemical payload" what would *_you_* think was in the box I just handed you? Oh also, "period outside the quotation", I ain't quoting your punctuation FFS. The only reason internal punctuation took over is because when writing text by-hand if you put the punctuation outside of the quote then you either need to move forward, write it, then move back diagnonally, draw the quotes, then move back down/forward diagnonally enough tos kip over the punctuation to keep writing. Compared to writing the text, writing the punctuation, moving up, writing the quote, moving down and continuing. It's easier to write, that doesn't mean it makes any sense. Yes, I am fully willing to die on this hill, along with dying on the hill of PEJMDAS.

[@OverWilliam]

"You have been appointed: Nothing. Will you give us your Something now?" 🤣🤣🤣

[@doctorgears9358]

the nice thing about a language that never receives updates is it doesn’t get any worse

[@emptydata-xf7ps]

I honestly believe the last two dramas have been started by insiders of the rust foundation after a dumpster fire of policy changes that everyone hated. Classic “look what he/she did so you forget what we did”

[@dexterman6361]

Wow these people who ask people to step down jeez. How high is their horse.

[@boredstudent9468]

The people smart enough to not be politicians, will suffer from politicians less smart.

[@Alex-xl4xe]

Lisa Su seems like a damn good engineer who became a manager. But I guess that's a case of "the rare occurence confirms the rule"

[@andrewyork3869]

Very much the exception, she also has a very good team around her. The willingness to not compete with but rather leap frog intel was important to. (Lots of really smart moves made that make more sense looking back then at the time.)

[@AllanSavolainen]

Not sure if they can just take those projects, I would assume they don't own the project name and etc. Probably the only legally clear options are a) forking or b) removing those packages or c) getting permission to transfer the IP

[@DavidPesta]

Bullcrap. The period should have never been inside of the quotation marks. English is wrong and we should rebel.

[@carlpittenger]

i always thought that that convention was dumb

[@robrick9361]

@@carlpittenger It is dumb, considering the closing quotation mark ends the quotation and the period ends the sentence using the quotation. In programming terms it's like writing "Hello World;"

[@complexity5545]

This is going to make me sound like a dungeon nerd, but i think they did that back when the telegraph machine was invented and also WW2 when messaging. They didn't want parsers and computers to get confused with full stops. I am a HAM radio guy too, so putting the period inside the quotes removes the possibility that the message ends. I don't know....but I do think it has something to do with telecom messaging from the analog days. The USA never changed it. Tabs were also used, but now most programmings are expanding tabs to spacebars and it would cause all types of problems for a typewriter/teletype.

[@kirglow4639]

Everyone just needs to chill, stop, breathe fresh air, touch grass, let go of the drama and let people improve

As a person capable of reason and empathy (you wouldn’t understand)…

[@vccsya]

Why does it feel like that a certain >someone< (Alonely0) has a personal grudge, there is nothing objective. They are trying to spew their opinion as facts and law.

[@acrodrigues1]

I don't want to learn rust anymore too much drama, golang is the way to go.

[@oserodal2702]

Oh buddy, do I have a story to tell you.

[@raidensama1511]

Rust: drama Python: hold my beer

[@justafreak15able]

@@oserodal2702 Tell us grandpa

[@jakubgiesler6150]

its doesnt stop you to code in rust tho.

[@acrodrigues1]

@@jakubgiesler6150 Just imagine one in the the mid 30's learning to code beyond TI-basic from 20 years ago on TI83+. Now not only I can code bugs, I can also code drama imagine "You use that crate from that dickhead therefore you're a dickhead too.".

[@JoelZamboni]

Here we go

[@mareknetzel]

12:45 in Polish we put it after ".

[@rocstar3000]

Yard, aka yet another rust drama

[@ashokgr]

Rust + drama

[@geekstakulus]

The "Jedis" part just made me laugh. Great one!

[@ozkifovxvypyvp3574]

Thanks for discussing the drama in a reasonable manner.

[@kevinwood5048]

So is the Rust Council like the Knights of Ren?

[@arcaneminded]

When people reference the community and then pointing to the emotional circle jerk that is reddit, just makes you realize how dumb our society is.

[@bellissimo4520]

In all seriousness, all these dramas are making me question if it's wise to even invest time into getting into RUST. Or if it will be sabotaged by its own community later.

[@jeanchindeko5477]

26:34 yeah and this is called the Peter Principle! Don’t do it, it’s bad for everybody

[@rollinkendal8130]

does anyone know this prolific Rust contributor? we are in the age where state actors masquerade as who they want. does he exist? is it all his work?

[@pif5023]

I need a Rust history book. The battle of Serde.

[@filiformis]

You don't have these problems among C programmers because the language gatekeeps itself. The only people who use it are those that are comfortable with a little danger. Drama generally is propelled by people's innate desire to pay attention to things they view as being a threat, but C programmers are comfortable with existing in a dangerous environment and not making a big deal about it so there's no foothold for drama to latch on to. Compare this to Rust's primary selling point and you can easily see why the Rust community is so drama obsessed. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[@arkeynserhayn8370]

Also, C doesn't have a community. I am a C programmer, you are a C programmer, we are NOT a community. Cannot have those dramas if you don't have a community in the first place. Good for us and the peace of mind that we have that we don't have to deal with these sort of nonsense.

[@filiformis]

​@@arkeynserhayn8370 Another good point.

[@sack-shaw]

C scarcely ever changes or has any kind of centralised package management. There is basically nothing to fight about. One of the many benefits of software minimalism.

[@hanifarroisimukhlis5989]

Then how do you explain the mess that is post-C98 hmmm?

[@filiformis]

@@hanifarroisimukhlis5989 If you talk with a C programmer about C99 they'll go "by the way I don't like variable-length arrays because they're declared on the stack" and then move on with their life and continue not using variable-length arrays. That is the extent of C drama.

[@benjaminhon86]

Why is this only in rust. You never see any of these things in any other programming language. Is rust some kind of social justice organization?

[@dranon0o]

> too much drama > in a programming language Not using it Simple as

[@BeamMonsterZeus]

12:40 I didn't realize you gained an English degree over the course of the past few months. It's inside the quotes because the sentence ended there. 11/10 video btw

[@user-ux2kk5vp7m]

Sort of. The Americans put the period inside the quotes. The British put the period outside the quotes.

[@BeamMonsterZeus]

@@user-ux2kk5vp7m That actually explains a lot

[@Remiwi-bp6nw]

I stopped following all this drama so idrk what's going on. I'm just bummed out bc I feel like ppl on the very edge of knowing what Rust is now think of it as the language with a bunch of drama around it...

[@bilbobeutlin3405]

Rust went from super chad to drama queen in like 1 year

[@nirnullz]

Sucked to hear this Rust drama. I felt this like high school drama (antagonism, clique, and fu** the authority) that aired for “transparency” just to become memes and laughed by community outsiders (like me). I remember java/jvm have something like this drama but because the stake is higher and corporate etiquette it’s become somber discussion and produce mature solution like jetbrain’s kotlin. The kotlin also driving back the innovation back to java and everybody have benefits.

[@pmcgee003]

12:45 "fullstop, inside the quotes is proper". Call the police. This man is inciting a crime against humanity.

[@PinakiGupta82Appu]

The responsibility of managing and maintaining crates and libraries should lie solely with the Foundation. To ensure security and quality control, new contributions should undergo rigorous testing and evaluation prior to release, preferably conducted by designated members of the Foundation or an external security audit farm. Build processes should be performed on multiple dedicated build servers (like F-Droid). As part of this process, precompiled binaries should be generated and made readily available to all users. Incremental changes to existing libraries should undergo the same verification process. By doing so, individuals won't need to waste precious time waiting for lengthy compilations, which often prove challenging even on consumer-grade modern hardware configurations. The time saved could otherwise be allotted to the task at hand, called development. For instance, building the Helix text editor typically requires 20 minutes or more on recent dual-core machines. I often compile Helix on my 4th gen Intel dual-core desktop. Given that many users cannot afford cutting-edge hardware technology, such as expensive AMD Ryzen Threadripper CPUs, providing precompiled binaries represents a significant advantage in terms of accessibility and convenience. As a bonus, this will ensure security and peace of mind.

[@yellingintothewind]

Potential clients sometimes ask me why I don't recommend Rust, and why I haven't learned Rust beyond a fairly basic level. This video provides the answer. Rust as a language has some neat ideas. Cargo as an "ecosystem" is a nightmare. Rust as a community is, well, _this_ .

[@tylermfdurden]

lol, he said "doing #2 would be shitty" lol

[@idonoD]

I love the drama keep it coming!

[@Impatient_Ape]

Control freaks are always convinced they're protecting authenticity and integrity. What they're really doing is trying to manage their fear of change and uncertainty. This is not a bug -- it's a feature of such personalities.

[@pianissimo7121]

I dont know who manages programming languages. But how is there so much drama over this? How come no other language has shit like this? The last thing i remember is Java being paid. Did other languages have such nonsense when they were new? I am an Idiot Java developer who lives under a rock. So please consider that and don't ask me how i don't know about this and that languages and their nonsense.

[@raidensama1511]

Haha, look up all of the Python drama regarding the BDFL. On the contrary, every language has drama and your perceptions, about this, are not reality.

[@pianissimo7121]

@@raidensama1511 ya that's what I thought. I only know of rust drama because of this channel. It feels so stupid. I thought no way other languages have such dramas. Obviously I know I am wrong but still. Python drama huh? Will check what happened 😅

[@udderhippo]

They all do to varying degrees. You just didn't see it on KZbin before. Prime found a niche taking discussions your regular dev would never have any idea existed, and reacts to them for your entertainment.

[@pianissimo7121]

@@udderhippo ya that's exactly it

[@KevinInPhoenix]

Is Rust and programmers who use it too anally retentive to survive long term?

[@chh4516]

You know what language doesn't come with drama AT ALL... that's right, its Kotlin

[@minneelyyyy]

I don't think any language comes with drama

[@chh4516]

@@minneelyyyy it also doesn't come with technical drama

[@Turalcar]

The MOST RECENT Rust Drama FTFY

[@rotors_taker_0h]

Prime amplifying minor accusations from the loneliest corners of rust forums is doing Rust community a disservice. Look, that post had six hundred view and half of them are probably from the poster themself refreshing for answers. And this video already has 50k, two orders of magnitude more, just in a day, and god knows how many impressions where people just looked at the title “oh, I not gonna watch another DRAMA, but put a checkmark to reeeealy avoid Rust because of that”.

[@BigFx]

Minor accusations? Threads directly linked in that topic not only outright call Tolnay and rust foundation racist (mind that thephd is actively participating in those) but the thread directly sparkled an xzibit style drama-in-a-drama related to mod team resignations. Heck, I don't think the troll OP had any awareness on what he would open (and has seen himself out since than anyway), but this is far spicier than the shitshow from 3 months ago.

[@rotors_taker_0h]

@@BigFx I'm not a native English speaker, so maybe I phrased this incorrectly. What I meant is that that baseless accusations from a rando don't deserve amplification in style of "look, the rust community is in flames, AGAIN".

[@ejun251]

The sandbox-level drama between man-children really drags the language down. Replace the leadership with people that have experience and good hearts.

[@madmax404]

TLDR; Prime says doing number 2 is shitty

[@theohallenius8882]

Rust Foundation needs a better Developer Relations Engineer

[@Diddykonga]

Honestly don't understand the drama surrounding the crates he maintains, if they were to ever go rogue/evil/whatever you could just replace/remake all his crates.

[@kenwood7195]

Like sand through the hourglass.

[@teukels]

It looks like there are people in this world who (seem to) benefit from stirring up drama in Rust. Rust always has had opposition, but lately they seem noisier. Am I wrong?

[@AzerAnimations]

What does this mean? That people outside the Rust community are blowing up Rust? Every single drama about Rust has been mostly internal, started by people who are TOO heavily invested in the community. Seriously, look at every single one. Its either the Foundation or the Project, or the Team, or some heavily neurotic individuals who are so obsessed with safety, like when they bullied the creator of Actix-web into giving the project away because he used too much "unsafe" (google it.)

[@Nina-cd2eh]

Honestly, i don't disagree. There are a lot of people that make hating Rust their whole identity and its gotten worse. Ideologues with zero stake in it whatsoever

[@optweb2k]

Good to see communism alive and well in the rust council of nerds. If these self righteous people want to make serde a core component of rust, fork it and call it something else. The character assassination is unnecessary, this guy deserves respect for the code that legit helps run the internet.

[@idiomaxiom]

Put Linus in charge.

[@MrIkariaman]

Apart from seeding the data, you didn't seem to go over the actual apology at all or ThePhD's response. If you did, you'd find that one of the main complaints goes beyond the fact that this is bad apology and into WHY this apology came out now (3 months later). The answer is because someone in a reddit post 3 months later reveals dtolnay as one of the "few people" that strongly argued for downgrading the keynote speech. This is a huge transparency problem, which I think is there in wider Rust too. "We heard your feedback and we are working on it" is not very reassuring when you've heard it for the umpteenth time for the same exact issue. Also dtolnay passed the blame on someone who never held any real decision making power ever. It's as if your elected politician passed the blame to a member of the public because "they suggested we do this". On the other hand the RustConf's apology was like a local politician passing the blame to a federal one. It's like they COULD and SHOULD have done better, but at least in their defense, they were advised by a very prominent group. (Rust project) I do think dtolnay has had an unparallelled series of contributions to the crates.io ecosystem, but I also am unsure if giving him decision making power in the rust community is a good idea, especially when he's proven to be very clumsy in wielding it.