The Last Stand of Jack Tramiel: The Atari ST vs The Commodore Amiga - Kim Justice

#atarist #amiga #retrogaming #documentary
We couldn't leave Jack Tramiel without a documentary covering his final act. Having considered retirement for a couple of months after his unceremonious departure from Commodore, Jack came back at the head of Atari, seeking revenge. Inevitably, war between the Atari ST and the Amiga follows. But who came out on top? Enjoy!
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[@Kim_Justice]

If you liked this then think about having a gander through my social media, and get yourself on my Patreon: www.patreon.com/KimbleJustice

[@American-Motors-Corporation]

Bullshit business was all about money to Jack business is all about money to anybody who runs a business oh yes all the other stuff can be lots of fun and I'm sure that we can all immerse our heads into that for a while but you do those things because you make a profit if you don't make a profit it's not profitable which means then there's no point showing up to work let me ask you something... how many people go to work every day today and or will go to work tomorrow for commodore computer?? oh yeah that's right zero and the reason being is because a it wasn't profitable they went out of business imagine that!! I have been in business a foreign businesses I work for other businesses as management and I can assure you it's all about the money baby!!

[@lucasoheyze4597]

Showing footage of The Sopranos breaking legs as if that's how Trammel behaved is ridiculous, and a bit sick...he shouted at a few people ffs,

[@landondyer]

Jack was an interesting character, he definitely had his good aspects and a few bad ones. I only caught the "bad" side once, when TOS was slipping and Jack had a pretty shitty meeting with the software team . . . not that motivational. For the most part he kept away from the teams, which was probably good. When I resigned from Atari, I had a meeting with Jack. I arrived on time, and he told me to have a seat while he did some writing on his desk. After a while, he looked up. "Do you know what I'm doing?" he asked. He had a kind of booming voice, it was a bit scary. "No," I replied. "I'm schmoozing." "Schmoozing?" "I'm writing to people -- CEOs, friends -- and asking them to give money to some charities and projects." These, I understand, largely involved anti-Holocaust or Jewish relief programs of one form or another. One of the things you didn't really know about Jack was that he was a serious philanthropist; he gave money to all kinds of charities and kept it really quiet. He didn't really want people to know about that side of him. He asked what my long term plans were, and we discussed that and the state of the ST and the industry for a bit, and then I left.

[@KarlHamilton]

That's really interesting. What year was that? What was your and Jack's opinion of the ST at that time? Was the writing on the wall for Atari by that stage?

[@UNIRockLIVE]

True Samaritans dont brag about their giving, like jack

[@cygil1]

@@UNIRockLIVE Dare I say it, they also do charity for people outside their own tribe.

[@Booth81]

Having watched and loved Micro Men, I really hope someone does a movie about Jack Tramiel. The guy had a really fascinating life, and helped create the modern computing world in ways a lot of folks haven't yet realized.

[@disposablebasterd]

Seriously agree, we have micro men and pirates of Silicon Valley we need one about commodore Atari and the others

[@C64Television]

This was a really well done documentary. If anybody wants to know who ran Commodore into the ground, Google a guy named Mehdi Ali. He could have made the Amiga a monster since it was so far ahead of anything on the market, but he was the picture of incompetence and apathy.

[@SianaGearz]

He got his own video on this channel a year ago. It's called "The Rise and Fall of the Commodore Amiga". It really is mostly about the fall.

[@indiosse]

maybe but the intel processors were really the demise, because they just got so fast so quickly

[@amigalemming]

@@indiosse Motorola processors also got faster, PowerPC came out, Amiga even considered switching to HP PA-RISC. Apple somehow also managed two switches of processor architectures.

[@robwebnoid5763]

Here in really late 2021. I think it was not totally Ali's fault. Irving Gould hired Ali, in which Ali was a very shrewd businessman & cut things here & there, as was instructed by Gould. It wasn't about forwarding Commodore into the future as a business, but by cutting their losses & having Ali & Gould leave with lots of money in hand. As has been said or implied by some Commodore historians, if you wanted Commodore to stay alive, the higher execs should have been people who knew the technology/electronics/computer sector & market, of which Ali was not, iirc. He was just part of Gould's henchmen.

[@brannkos]

Problem began in '85 when Tamriel refused to market Amiga as gaming machine, and when they were selling computer only in their shops, you couldn't order them. First Amiga should be A500. When it finnaly came out in 87 it was already late, and games specially for her start to come out in '89 except few earlier games... Ali was just final nail in their coffin colled cheap 386sx vga pc.

[@BlueMSX.]

Rest in peace Jack Tramiel and may your legacy be remembered.

[@chrisbomber101]

i had the Atari STe as a lad and i loved it, still got it now but havent used it in years

[@KuraIthys]

"Games is where it really mattered". Isn't that just the truth. Every game console ever made has rested not on what the hardware was capable of, but what game developers were able and willing to do with it, and how many could be bothered to do such things. Even the PC, whose life started as a no-nonsense business machine ultimately gave way to much of it's major hardware existing almost entirely for the purposes of playing games. Do you really think 3d accelerator boards would have succeeded as a 'business' item? No. Even though business focused models exist to this day, their success can be laid at the feet of games, and little else. Even basic CPU performance frequently had more to do with the gaming industry than it did with any other, much as other industries and uses for computers did of course also benefit... Games have driven so much of the home computer industry... Where would it be without them?

[@kl0wnkiller912]

Actually 3D video processors were and are used in a lot of business software. 3D CAD and graphic designing rely heavily on 3D hardware. The gaming industry truly did fuel the start but the CAD and design industry is now pushing it.

[@tosgem]

Jack Tramiel was Commodores Steve Jobs, except they never begged him back

[@Nimmo1492]

Amazingly well put together and informative documentary. I love how in-depth and intelligent your videos are.

[@chiroquacker2580]

Great documentary! I've never even considered patreon before but I am tempted in your case since your channel is my all time favorite. You've provided me with hours of top quality entertainment and I'm always excited whenever I see that you have uploaded a new documentary / video.

[@LUCKO2022]

The use of MGS music was awesome. It made me cry,very fitting to end the legacy of Jack. LONG LIVE COMMODORE. LONG LIVE ATARI CORP

[@scott8919]

You always do some amazing videos, Kim! Thank you for these.

[@bearmatic]

Excellent as usual, Kim. Thank you for all Your hard work.

[@MichaelLatham]

Excellent job Kim. You nailed it.

[@battmann7089]

Black Lodge Games, LLC - Well said, totally agree.

[@KentReynolds]

This is one of the best commodore / trammel docos out there. Well researched and presented. Well done.

[@MrDaveP75]

Fantastically put together as usual.

[@OperationPhantom]

Thanks Kim! Excellent overview and great to watch.

[@gisty2012]

Hey Kim, you really deserve a lot more subs. I simply love your documentaries. Thank you for putting in the effort you do :)

[@GoogleModerator]

If I may say so, you raise our community quality & class with your content Kim. Thank you for all your work.

[@caseycu]

I think this whole 'mini-series' was super interesting; thanks for putting it together!

[@SledgeFox]

Such a great documentation, funny, entertaining and educating, perfect! Thank you very much!

[@AdiSneakerFreak]

Amazing doc Kim. Thanks for this.

[@Oculas2003]

Just wanted to say nice work on this series - well researched and well presented

[@aeu569]

Tramiel would make a great Scorcese movie character :D

[@vxsniffer]

Adam Kołakowski - but who could play Jack Tramel's role? Jack Nicholson? ;-)

[@itsaPIXELthing]

Awesome vid, Kim! :) Thanks for this!

[@charlesmcneil1659]

Just wanted to drop a line and say that your research is beyond compare. Your videos are edited well and have clips, shots and information I rarely find elsewhere. Thank you for breathing fresh air into this (generally) very banal and regurgitated genre. You rock!

[@fbseducareer5441]

Great documentary mate ! Finally I can understand the complex history between Amiga and Atari.

[@chip5541]

I am absolutely loving your videos. taking me back.

[@Horzuhammer]

This vid was probably the highlight of the Jack-trilogy. Great job.

[@jesuszamora6949]

Jack's a complex man, that's for damned sure. For all his ruthlessness, you can't help but admire the man for having crawled out of the depths of hell into such a position of power and influence. I guess "a businessman's businessman" would be the best way to describe him. I'd love to see you do a documentary on the Tandy-1000 line, perhaps the first major IBM-compatible to really get off the ground, and one of the first really successful computers after the crash here in America (hilariously coming after the failure of IBM's own home attempt and saving Sierra from closing). That little piece of old tech is a huge nostalgia bomb for me, and given how you research so well, I'm sure such a video would be hugely entertaining. Also, what is that last song? I could SWEAR I've heard it from a PS1 game, but I'm dying here trying to remember the title...

[@Kim_Justice]

"The Best Is Yet To Come" from Metal Gear Solid.

[@raafmaat]

Kim, your whole channel should be uploaded to archive.org . This is easily the most complete and accurate history in this field (in video form) and it would be a true loss if any of this would ever get lost somehow. keep up the great work, not only is it rediculously informative, you somehow make these topics really fun and interesting to watch

[@221b]

They really should have kept that as the main theme for the MGS, instead of hiring Harry Gregson-Williams to rip off Georgy Sviridov.

[@jesuszamora6949]

Kim Justice OH YEAH, MGS1! My GOODNESS it's been too long since I've played that game. Thanks, that was driving me absolutely nuts.

[@remka2000]

Great video, as usual. Thank you so much.

[@higgins007]

Another good one! Legend has it that Jack was already in charge by the time Morse arrived to pay off the half mil. Not knowing what to do, the execs called him on the spot and not knowing about the Amiga deal, he told them: "when somebody gives you a cheque for 500k, you take it!" Nice story if it's true :)

[@SyphonNL]

Awesome documentary again!!

[@RobbieStrike]

Good video, I have watched it a few times and keep learning new things about computer history. I love how when talking about Jack you use footage of Vince Mcman and Eric Bishops's "Im Back" music.

[@paulponsford]

This was a computer way ahead of its time.(the Atari ST) Using GFA basic (compiles to stand alone exe files) I was able to develop powerful bespoke business applications using glorious hi res 640 x 400 monochrome output. The quality of this display, especially using larger third party monitors was breath-taking for its day. The Atari operating system allowed the programmer to mix text and graphics in the same window. IMB clones at that point in time where simple text only output, MS Windows at this point in time was just a pipe dream. Add to this the ability to access 4 meg of ram, cheap and reliable external hard drives and a sexy separate keyboard made the St one hell of a computer!!

[@galier2]

Yes, people forget how much of a big deal the memory of the ST was back then. Not only did the machine have 1 meg and plus for an affordable price, but they were actually usable. A thing that was not the case in PC's at that time. Under DOS you had the 640K limit, but worse, in real mode the CPU's would have problems with objects bigger than 64K because of the segmented addressing of memory. The Amiga had the issue of chip memory and cpu memory which also made some things really annoyingly difficult to handle, even if you had memory extension in your computer. That was the reason why at that time ~1987 as a CS student I sold my Amiga 500 to replace it with an Atari Mega ST2, it was so much better for programming (cheaper)

[@Dkentflyer]

Thankyou Kim for an excellent documentary, i think we do have alot to thank Jack for.I bought an Atari 800Xl in 1986 after he slashed the price to less than 100 pounds and i was hooked.I bought an ST in 1988 and had it for ten years, learned to program it and made a few demos.Good times.

[@mUbase]

Thanks Kim. You make the best videos on computer/gaming history. Plenty of excellent research and well presented in a no nonsense or bullshit manner whilst retaining humour. :)

[@jrherita]

Kim - Awesome as usual. I really like the respect shown for him at the end with the memorials and other things he did for awareness of the evils that happened in the past. There were two things I was kinda expecting - 1 is Tramiel Atari's purchase of Federated in ~ 1988 which caused Atari to burn a lot of cash and also lose a lot of focus on getting their ST products out there. That ultimately ended up being a distraction. 2 is Jack's method of getting around the DRAM regulation in the mid 80s that caused prices to go way up; there were some illegal imports of DRAM to Atari that he used both for his computers and resold at a profit that are fairly documented out there.

[@seanmachin7305]

Very enjoyable videos; I got into computers in the 8 bit era so good to find out more about the dealings back then.

[@tonycrew2012]

Great Documentary again, i love these... Any hints on whats next..?

[@RyanDanielG]

GREAT vid, as always

[@stan_austin]

Absolutely superb !

[@MOSMASTERING]

Nailed another video. I was born in '82 and grew up with loads of UK/European computers and I was too young to know what all the stories were behind so many things around me. I've watched almost every Kim Justice video and they are all stunning I don't know how you gather all the information and the scripts are fabulous. I have a stack of old Mega Drive and Atari ST mags in my attic somewhere - mostly game stuff, that's all the info I had back then. Under 5 years old I stated with a ZX Spectrum - Jet Set Willy was the first game I ever played and probably one of my favourites. Kim - have you ever considered a short doc on the programmer Matt Smith who did Manic Miner and Jet Set Willy? Because he disappeared for years and here were rumours of him joining a hippy commune in Amsterdam and frying himself with a shit ton of LSD.. mad story. I also don't know a lot about Joffrey (I think you mentioned he was a programmer at Ocean Software) Maybe a documentary on some late/great programmers or a few Bedroom coders that did well.

[@mediaphile]

Great video as always.

[@CFalcon030]

That was a very informative overview of what happened at Commodore after Jack left.

[@Skaera75b]

- Fascinating, well-researched content - Excellent narration - Wrestling references - FF7 music ... Kim, why do you do this to me? It's a 10/10 from me. Again. Please keep up the great work.

[@OliverJonCross]

amazing video, thanks Kim

[@maxgatrell2056]

Kim, an excellent video as always.

[@SomeOrangeCat]

What a finish! This trilogy was very insightful. Thanks for making it, Kim! Interesting to learn that the man was much more than a one-dimensional business monger.

[@holomatrix]

This documentary is a work of art, Kim I've recently found your channel, you're so good at the writing, (loving the Lock, Stock & updated references, gives the reality of the point your making very understanding, good production). Loving the Commodore era stuff, Jack was a legend of his times. More please! 26:42 - Is that a stock photo or what was left of the actual Commodore offices?

[@beingatliberty]

Thanks for painting a clearer portrait of tramiel, as an amiga owner his defection to atari, probably painted him darker than necessary, the history of computers is muddled and incestuous, but an essential part of the pyramidal tapestry of where we are now, and it is very true to state that the contribution of the companys, that no longer exist, is often much overlooked.

[@gisty2012]

Just great to see a video about my beloved Atari ST 1040f and Cubase .... Kim, you are a fine KZbinr :)

[@Halbared]

Loving the gangster clips, and hen you slip in a quick Don't Pay Take It Away, spot on. Also Fester was a nice touch. :D

[@Pinman1973]

Thank you for this vid ! Amazing !

[@drakon32]

Great episode! Thanks!!

[@Flashback-Gamer]

A fantastic production, don't think I need to learn anymore on the subject of Jack Tramiel, I think you've covered it pretty on the dollar. thank you.

[@mibri]

brilliant as usual. thanks kim!

[@madcommodore]

By the time of the Falcon Jack really had little to do with Atari, he pretty much handed over the running of the company to his eldest son, who really finished off the company. And if we are totally fair Jack's brilliant mind needed the backing of his own in house semi conductor plant/team, if not the same engineers who designed VIC-II and SID for him on salary wages cost alone, as he did at Commodore for his radical plans to work. The man was a genius with the C64 and PET and his intended £70/$70 rubber keyed Commodore 116 style machine (plus4 case, Mattel Aquarius style rubber keys, Commodore 16 capabilities) which would done really well especially if they sold a 32k RAM expansion cart later....just check out the awesome Plus4 exclusive remakes of things like Commando on my channel..

[@DEATH0RI0N]

Great one Kim, thanks.

[@SoundOfYourDestiny]

The statement about Atari "never succeeding" in the home-computer market is ludicrous. The 800 was very popular around the world, not surprising since it was half the price of Apple's comparatively weak offerings. And here's something interesting from an Ars Technica article: "At first, IBM thought about rebranding an existing computer, and had selected the Atari 800. However, after a visit to Atari headquarters, where IBM businessmen were literally put in a box and run through the assembly line by unorthodox and sometimes stoned Atari employees, the computing giant decided they would rather build their own computer."

[@stuartc6774]

I remember being pissed off as a kid because the arsehole salesman convinced my parents that the ST would be better for me than the Amiga from an education point of view. Obviously I wanted to play games, which were always better on my mates' Amiga. Utter bastard.

[@gingergreek]

Absolutely brilliant documentary. Can't wait for the next one. This shit should be bought by a TV network

[@davedogge2280]

This is a great piece of Journalism, I loved through that era as a kid, had an Amiga 500, I bought many of the computer magazines back then yet there wasn't much in the media back then about what was really happening, maybe I was reading the wrong magazines.

[@Reasonjpn]

I was on the Amiga side of the fence myself, most of this is new to me. Awesome stuff.

[@ProteusMega]

Great series!

[@amigoamiga9254]

I lived and breathed Jack's products for 10 years of my life easy, I have only just realized how one person can have such an impact on ones life, I had to ponder for a bit after that. Thanks for the videos as always.

[@wagdawgwag872]

Love the use of the Bischoff theme.

[@RetroTuna]

Great video mate.

[@FoxyStoats]

Just want to say that your music choices were on point today Kim, I can just imagine Jack walking through the offices on his first day in charge with Eric Bischoff's theme following him. Its time, get in line 'cause I'm gonna make some changes, and judging from that layoff list, he did just that.

[@drpedopuk9705]

2:31 know this song?

[@KingSizeCod]

Somehow I'm reminded of Robert Maxwell if you replace home computers with newspapers, of course Tramiel didn't fall off his yacht and get a plum spot at Mount of Olives cemetery.

[@blackterminal]

Thanks for the upload and paying due respect to Jack.

[@LemonTubeAmiga]

You pack so much into these shows, I had to stop and start it a few times to take it all in. Thanks for filling in some of the Dark Years after 1985, and the Thomas Rattigan story. Yes its funny that Apple and Commodore were run by ex-Pepsi cola bosses in 1986. I wonder if Bill Gates drinks Coke?

[@Bellocks1]

I’ve worked for people like Tramiel and I agree with what you say Kim. Personally they are approachable and gregarious, but in business they are absolutely laser like in focus. You never get praise for doing well, or maybe a word or two, and get absolutely slaughtered for making even the smallest mistake. They remembered every slight, every move against them and didn’t stop until they’d got one back. But, oh damn, were you taught how to work for a living. Something I am grateful for all these years later, all the ass kickings, yelling and sheer breakneck speed at the required work rate taught me.

[@almighty1984]

fantastic job, subbed

[@elliotswanton9398]

What is the music at 27:40? I remember it being on some demo, however, music was often ripped and re-used.

[@curiousottman]

I’m always impressed at the quality of KJ videos. Bravo. You truly shine on KZbin in an ocean of dummies making content for the lowest common denominator.

[@Halbared]

Informative video, ta.

[@shkeni]

37:50 LOL the Hedley Davis Memorial Disk Drive xD

[@smyk3ns]

amazing video thx !

[@michaeltsung9741]

another excellent KJ video....

[@TheMadTanuki]

Great Video indeed, enjoyed it quite a bit. It also brings out a tid bit often overlooked, with the mention that beloved games on the Amiga like Populous and Dungeon Master were in fact Atari ST ports. In reality there were a lot more, mostly all Bitmap Brother Games used the ST as the main development platform (think Xenon, Gods, Magic Pockets you name it) and while the Amiga received "lazy" ST ports no one complained. Why? Because they were great games that showed how even the ST was often the victim of another phenomenon: "Lazy Programming" in general. Some developer would pile up a piece of crap on the ST very quickly, and just as quickly port it on the Amiga. These games set the standard to what would be later known as "ST lazy ports", when in fact the makers were very lazy on the Atari machine to start with! Take a look at the ST versions of Chaos Engine, Rod Land, Captain Dynamo (and many more) and you will see the ST isn`t exactly a Spectrum in disguise. Which also brings to light a small inaccuracy being told in this documentary here: it is not true that soon after the A500 came out in 1987, the game developers crowd all switched to the Amiga and turned their backs to the ST (as a main development platform I mean), as the best games from the Bitmap Brothers came after that, Thalion was formed after that out of Atari ST demo coders (Wings of Death anyone?), Delphine Software used the ST as the main Dev machine at those times and the vector graphics based engine that runs Another World was done there (as a matter of fact, the ST version of the game is Very good). The only company that truly backed the Amiga with all they could (at the early stages) was Psygnosis. Later came Factor 5 and Team 17 but we are talking the 90s now. Even Thalion`s Best effort on the Amiga (Lionheart) came out the same year the Atari Jaguar debuted on north american store shelves. I would go on to say that Amiga`s Best games came out already facing the import PC Engine and Megadrives that were sold by grey importers (ads in the UK were all over the place from these stores) and then competing directly with the officially released machines.

[@7seatea7]

Where is track played over the end of the video from? It is so familiar yet I can't for the life of me place it. For the sake of sport I'll have a guess and say Dead Can Dance.

[@RoboBoddicker]

lol. Love the Mr. Show callout. "You'll never find a rat in one of our computers. That's the Atari promise."

[@andrewreed1329]

Very good documentary.

[@farseerflore9512]

Loved the use of Easy E's theme!

[@markwhatever256]

Great Video series, very much enjoyed them. If i have to nit pick, no mention of the Falcon, as an Amiga fan having an A500, i would have preferred the Falcon to the A1200 i eventually got, Falcon was too expensive though but was impressive.

[@maciejlegowicz5834]

Thanks. I'm still watching, but what's the track on 14:35 ? Thanks

[@SjaakSchulteis]

I used nearly all Atari ST's including Falcon. It was a sad day when I had to switch over to Windows 3.1 and DOS...

[@njclondon2009]

I can feel your love for jack, kim!

[@garethsready]

these reviews are excellent the detail ...graphics ...and especially kims voice ...perfect for us pc nigels 😀

[@TheBeird]

Where did you get a clean version of the theme of A BETTER TOMORROW from?

[@willeysingleton3057]

Again loved this trilogy, watched it 3 times.

[@oliverlotus]

great video.

[@MsLoribee]

Hi Kim, in your research for this do you happen to know where in sunnyvale Atari was? I moved to the Bay Area from Bournemouth and live in Sunnyvale. Btw, I used to have an Atari 1020(?). STFM and upgraded to an A500 liked both systems

[@doomguy1001]

Background music at 36:25. What's the track name? I've forgotten.

[@chrishopkins209]

+15 points for using Eric Bischoff's WWE theme!

[@blehblah9942]

Wow the music from A Better Tomorrow, I'm Impressed ! :3

[@AumchanterPiLetsPlay]

Another good one. I think Jack is your favourite :)

[@FrankNFurter1000]

What's the song used at the beginning? Kicks in at 0:04.

[@mikegravgaard340]

I was watching a video from Bill Herd and he said the reason for the bust up was due to Gould using the company jet for his own purposes. Jack was one of thooe who would pay for himself where as Gould it would seem would use the company assets as an extension of his own assets.