The Leyland B15 Bus Story: Titan or Titanic? [UK Bus History]

[@trumpsupporter7772]

The Titan was a classic example of 1970s British Industry. Good, but a little over complicated, design with production hampered by incompetent, inflexible mangement and meddling politicians. Production at Park Royal was affected by the workers knowing that they were going to lose their jobs after the first 250 buses. The 24 was a local bus route for me in Central London and so I often rode these buses and remember them as being far more comfortable than the DM buses. Thanks Jeffrey.

[@ronmccullock1407]

@@trumpsupporter7772 correct

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Thanks for your opinion of the Titan - very interesting!!! Thanks very much for watching again!!

[@Gideonsmythe]

Can't believe the Titan's haven't seen service in London for over 20 years now. I grew up in the Eastern Suburbs of London and for a while the only buses you'd see were Titans. Those in the Western half of London got MCW Metrobuses, so it was quite unusual crossing the capital and seeing completely different buses everywhere. Eventually route tendering ate away at the Titan fleet and by 1992 hundreds were withdrawn and sold to other operators. Merseybus had an impressive fleet of ex-London Titans around the turn of the century. They were fine buses and far superior in ride quality to anything since the Routemaster. If you get the chance to experience one at a rally or running day, you won't regret it.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Thanks for that interesting info and your experience on the Titans in London! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@TheSimonhammond]

A Matchbox favourite of mine.

[@KellinoRail]

At the independent I worked for we built up quite a fleet of Titan's and I loved every minute of driving them. They were smooth, both in the ride and in the way you could drive them, giving passengers an excellent ride. We had no problem at all maintaining them and found them to be very reliable when worked hard, but suffered from overheating or water leaks when only being used on school contracts in the morning and afternoons. When we won an extensive rail replacement contract they worked 24/7 for many many weeks without missing a beat. They were certainly a bus that liked to work. You could go over those little short nasty extreme speed bumps without even noticing they were there! Eventually we replaced them with mainly Leyland Olympians, which were also excellent buses and had some advantages over other deckers in a semi-rural environment - try going through a flood, even a small one, in a Volvo B10 and see how long you last.... Keep up the great videos Jeffrey.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Thanks for describing your experience with the Titans, very interesting! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@jamesfrench7299]

No wonder they lasted in London service 1978 - 2004.

[@drewanywar15977]

The titan is very close to the Olympian from the 80’s. Can’t wait to see a video on the Olympian.

[@rikkilamb]

The olympian is a development from the Titan.

[@drewanywar15977]

@ yes I understand that bu a video dedicated to the Olympian would be great.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Will look into doing an Olympian video! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@Scots_Diesel]

​@rikkilamb the olympian was more like the bristol VRT engineering wise.

[@DavidJones-wx4im]

​@@Scots_DieselI was told basically the Olympian was a series 4 Bristol VRT using the technology of the Titan.

[@marksinthehouse1968]

In west London we got the metrobus east London got the titan ,I travelled to barking to ride one in 1980 😂,but having travelled on them but sadly never driven one they were superb ,but I’ve driven the Olympian and that was nice to drive ,and seeing brand new titans passing through west London to east London garages especially in the red/white livery was an awesome site to a young lad as I was then Thanks for another great video , All the best Mark 😊😊

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Really happy you liked the video! And thanks for your memories of the Titan and for watching again!!

[@highpath4776]

couple of preserved ones so you may get a chance to drive one

[@DavE-bh8lz]

Another great video Jeffrey. Thanks for posting. Leyland DID produce a model called the "Titanic" in the late 1920's, early 1930's.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

LOL, I just looked it up, it's quite an interesting bus. But what a name for that time, LOL! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@StephenAllcroft]

@@JeffreyOrnstein At the time Leyland decided Titanic would be the name for the three axle version of the Titan the ship disaster had not been forgotten exactly but it was nowhere near the feature of popular culture it is now. The first world war had taken much more life, as had the Spanish Flu pandemic. Glasgow Corporation Transport recruited 1100 soldiers out of their platform staff for the Highland Light Infantry. 691 of whom died, most in the first battle of The Somme. A shipping disaster in 1912 was not a matter of much public discourse in 1929.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

@@StephenAllcroft Interesting!...just try naming a bus with the name Titanic today. As you say, over a century later, its connotation is more influential than in the 1920s!

[@marton43]

Lovely bus to drive ! Park Royal fiasco killed it - couldn't have happened at a worse time ! At the end of their life the Barnsley scrap men once told me they were an incredibly hard vehicle to break up because they were so well built !

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Wow, that's interesting to hear! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@stevenmacdonald9619]

The Titan was way ahead of it's time, and came when the UK was both politically and financially in deep mud. The Olympian was a small save, but it's a shame the Titan didn't get the respect it deserved for innovation. To this day, TFL is more than a transport organisation. It has always remained a political weapon. London acts like a nation of it's own, not a capital city. They hated Leyland, because it was Northern, end of.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Interesting commentary about the Titan - yes, it certainly deserves more for its innovation! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@highpath4776]

I dont know if LT hated Leyland, the staff magazines didnt criticise it but they were so used to working with AEC that had been ingrained. The Leyland Fleetline B20s seemed OK with LT and they also bought the Olympians. ( even if they were VR derivived )

[@johncourtneidge]

Yes.

[@StephenAllcroft]

It was always designed around LTs preferences and that is why you're right in your guess that had production started at the Lillyhall plant rather than Park Royal, then only those buses cancelled would have been added, it would still have left the Titan in a minority position outside London. There was some arrogance from Leyland in the early days of B15, when the lack of a low height option was mentioned, a Leyland spokesman said it would be cheaper to raise every low bridge in the country than for Leyland to tool up for a lower version. The hydraulic braking systems were taken out of these and the LT Metrobuses prior to disposal as no other operator used them. Although less sophisticated, the Olympian was still air-suspended and rode very well but had the ability to get under those railway bridges.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello Stephen! Thanks again for your knowledge!! That story on Leyland saying it would be cheaper to raise all of the bridges...wow! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@theBusManiac]

What a professional and informative video!

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! I'm so glad you liked it and thanks for the compliment! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@whathappenedtonormal]

I love your videos about these "boxy" 1970s and 80s double deckers. This is a type I was always fascinated by with as I they were non existent in my part of the country. My most memorable experience is from about 15 years ago, when the transmission of a packed Titan I was riding in the middle of summer during rush hour, decided it had had enough as it struggled up Headington Road, probably the only steep hill hill in Oxford. Otherwise on the very few times I rode on them in Oxford I found them to be comfortable and intuitive to use.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh, that's interesting to hear about the Titans that you have ridden on! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@paultaylor7082]

Excellent article, in Greater Manchester we had very few of them (as you say, due to many concelled orders). I can remember travelling occasionally on these Titans, they seemed a lot quieter than the previous Leyland Atlanteans, Mancunians and Daimler Fleetlines of the late 1960s/early 1970s.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Really glad you thought the video was excellent! Thanks very much for watching again!!

[@vlt14]

I loved the Titan, I think I have previously mentioned that one the prototypes BCK 706R was evaluated by Merseyside, I had the pleasure of travelling on it, it was very comfortable. When London Transport started disposing of their Titans, Merseybus bought around 250 Titans to replace ageing Leyland Atlanteans, they enjoyed a lengthy second life in Liverpool

[@stevedickson5853]

It was a boxy good looker, loved the off set lower deck rear window

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh yes, I should have mentioned that unique feature! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@peterlau4683]

China Motor Bus of Hong Kong actually had requested Leyland to develop a Titan B15 in 3-axle form beside the one they had later became TC1 in the fleet and the only one Titan B15 to export, but for some reason it never happen and had an order of two Leyland Victory 2 double-decker buses to replace instead, I guess it gonna be a different story for B15 if 3-axle B15 bus can be developed. B15 actually is a very good looking bus and thankfully EFE had released the beautiful casting for these buses in both 1 and 2 doors layout and I have some of them, sadly B15 can't stand a chance and only LT had a big fleet of B15 buses for reasons and had Olympian later took the place.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh, yes, it would have been really interesting to see a 3-axle Titan! Oddly, Leyland designed the Titan to meet regulations to run anywhere in the world, but it sold only one outside of the UK. Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@derekantill3721]

I used the Leyland Titan a lot in London. I thought it was a good design of good manufacture and better than the rival MCW Metrobus. A good video Jeffery.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Glad you liked the video! Thanks very much for watching again!!

[@tactikzzF1R3]

What another terrific video. Thank you, Jeffrey......always such a treat to watch, listen and learn from your content!!

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! I'm so glad you thought this video was terrific!!!! Thanks for the compliment! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@glenjones6980]

It looked a stylish and competent vehicle, the design, engineering and experience at Leyland was second to none but the story is as much about the British workforce at the time as much as anything else.

[@johncourtneidge]

Yes.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh yes, I would imagine so!! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@Eric_Hunt194]

Remember seeing Titans running for Glenvale Transport in Liverpool in the early 2000s, they were over 20 years old by then but still ran very smoothly, the air suspension was like a magic carpet ride!

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Thanks for relaying your experience with the Titans! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@peterlangridge4639]

Great presentation Geoffrey. The truth behind the B15 development was however extremely pressured by the then head of London Transport Engineering. Colin Curtis was a dominating character, and had already cocked a snoot at the National, his opinion was that LT could not possibly operate a vehicle in arduous London traffic that was not equipped with Clayton hydraulic brake systems. Leyland saw their collaboration with LT as a way to secure a flag bearer for future sales to other operators but instead it turned out to be a shot in the foot as LT added more complexities to the vehicle which made it an unrealistic option for municipals at that time. In fact the whole UK bus industry was influenced by very strong willed Engineering heads, all of which had their own agendas. And notably, not many agreed with the likes of Curtis in London. Everyone wanted something different and Leyland were trying to herd them into accepting a standard build. Doubtlessly this was damaging to B15 sales potential. There was also strong resistance at the time about the Hydracyclic transmission, which was in infancy and if not maintained properly could lead to expense and unreliability. LT themselves were very guilty of this and the gearbox failures were almost critical in those early years as operating depots did not understand them or pick up on issues which would lead to damage. I started working for Leyland just when the Titan was being delivered to London so saw the early niggles affecting it. Most notable was the structural problems with the torque box underframe which attached the rear axle to the integral frame. Cracks developed which eventually resulted in three separate engineering interventions to finally bottom the issue and Leyland had no alternative but to address it, to maintain good relations with LT in the hope of future orders, and the goodwill of LT waving their banner for Leyland. If Curtis had not been the influencer, Leyland might have had a bigger win, who knows? After Curtis, LT accepted the Olympian in air brake spec (and late Nationals too by then) which proved Leyland were right and the vehicles were needlessly costly to build with LT's stubborn specification. Of course, Leyland felt they could emulate the relationship that AEC had enjoyed with LT over decades but it was not to be. Happy to help if you have questions.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Really happy you liked the video! And thanks for all of that additional information - a lot that I did not read about anywhere, so it's very interesting to hear all of this!!! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@jamesfrench7299]

No one will answer this, but are the rear wheel axle shafts and hubs on the Titan and Olympian an AEC design. They are skinnier than the ones on Leopards and Nationals and have an odd number of studs holding them on just like the AEC Reliance and Swifts.

[@colincar6823]

another great informative video

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Really glad you liked the video!! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@ROCKINGMAN]

Remember seeing the prototype, the B15, on route 24 in 1975, on trials in Charing Cross Rd. Thought what a modern looking design. Wasn't sure I liked it. Early production models had nice badge on grille. The Manchester air-flow widscreen, you show is very odd! One LT prototype was operating on normal bus routes through south east London in the 90's. Matchbox toys made toy model of this, quite accurate. Interesting video,

[@lucythemoggy1970]

i drove the titan and metrobus and like them both

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Great to hear you liked those buses! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@davesbusstuffandmore]

I have never drove a Leyland Titan, their were some in Leicester UK. However Midland Fox had a small fleet of Leyland Olympians that I have driven, early semi auto buses and later full auto buses, these are still some of the best buses I have ever driven and they were around 10 years old. The early ones I was a passenger going school on!! As well.🙂

[@chr1sda1sey]

Route 51 in Sheffield was always used to assess demonstrators as it's very hilly so they could see how the bus would cope.

[@crabbymilton390]

It really shouldn’t make any difference where the body was built. The TITAN seemed to prove the test of time. Keep these coming Jeffery.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Oh, yes, it should not matter where the bodies were built, but in this case unfortunately, it did... Thanks very much for watching again!!

[@markmiddleton1772]

a bus company i used to work for had five second hand ones and even then they were great bus to drive

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Great to hear you liked the Titan!!! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@markmiddleton1772]

@@JeffreyOrnstein glad i found your little channel

[@stevehillier7018]

Drove these from 1989 to 1993 out of New Cross Garage South East London for London Transport. They were great to drive and some were quite pokey . Before the braking systems were converted the retarder on the brake pedal took some mastering. Great times . Always remember Titan 682. That used to motor .

[@brad4057]

Fantastic content very good 👍

[@bryancave370]

Awesome stuff. Love the videos! I enjoyed driving the Titan.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Really glad you liked the video!! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Thank you!!!

[@asciimation]

Interesting as always and the comments you get from people with actual knowledge about things is always fascinating to read too!

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Glad you found the video interesting, and yes, the comments are very interesting too! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@shnorth888]

One of my favorite British buses. I have a couple London Transport Titans in 1/76 scale. ,

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Oh yes, they look great in model form! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@ronkessler1219]

Hi Having driven both MCW and Titans at Cricklewood and Barking bus garages I can say that on balance I preferred the Metro, but the Titans had some good features the gear selector was more user-friendly than the push button on the MCW. The Titans at Barking were very sluggish and most took along time to get up to speed,so I drove most manually. Great videos I enjoy them cheers Ron.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Thanks for your interesting insight and sharing your experience driving both the buses! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@Scots_Diesel]

Thanks again Jeffrey

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Glad you liked the video!! Thanks very much for watching again!!

[@timbounds7190]

Pedantic Point - the picture you show at 7:50 is of a Metropolitan (Scania based), not a Metrobus. I had a few rides on the Titan - wonderful to ride on as a passenger. Comfortable, smooth , good visibility. Apart from the production problems, maybe a bit too sophisticated for many operators. Of course, with modern buses being full of technology, it was, as you say, a great design, but a few years ahead of its time.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh, thank you for the correct identification of the bus - my error. I may update the description to include this error. Thank you very much for watching!

[@raythomas4812]

great video - the 261 and 208 pass my flat !

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Glad you really liked the video!!! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@Scots_Diesel]

A rare beast in Scotland, My local company Fife Scottish had a few on order but ultimately cancelled, they did eventually end up with some after Stagecoach took them over, life expired ex London Transpot ones mostly refitted from dual to single doors, they were well past thier best with worn out seating, rattles all over the place, poor electrics, draughty, leaks when raining, but they still were reasonably comfortable, for the passenger, and from what I heard good drivers vehicles except for power on the hills, lack of speed, and the other faults i mentioned above.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Interesting - I may have missed the item about Fife canceling their Titans!

[@Keithbarber]

I loved riding on them as a kid, and even when they were about 20 years old, i drove some, but they were one of my favourite all-around vehicles from both perspectives Some loved the titan, others loathed them, I'm a *BIG **_FAN_* of titans

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Great to hear your experience with the Titans! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@69Phuket]

You should come over to a bus festival next year Jeffrey. We'll be more than happy to put you up. I remember the Manchester ones. Liverpool went mad with ex London Titans. Hey! Come over.....!

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh, I definitely, absolutely should go there to see a bus rally or festival!! If you know of a good way to find out when they will be happening, please let me know!!! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@69Phuket]

@@JeffreyOrnstein We can work it out...Probably summer. I'll be researching. And if anyone reading can help also... UK is a small Island never more than a few hours from a bus festival! :)

[@Jimbo-gi7xn]

I've driven the last Titan made..used to be based at Stagecoach Ashford

[@russellbenton2987]

Thoroughly enjoying your bus programs . Learning a lot about the buses I was very familiar with in the 70s but took for granted . Maybe a future program could be on the Bristol VR . Very popular south of the border but didn’t do well in the Scottish Bus Group

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! I'm really glad you enjoy my bus videos!!! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@brianfretwell3886]

I always believed the best thing about the Titan was that is WASN'T an Olympian. I was on a fairly new (Southern Vectis) Olympian on the Isle of Wight and it just slowed down and came to a gradual halt, but not as if the brakes were on and we all had to wait for the next bus. I never had that happen when riding on a Titan. Several years later I travelled on a charter Olympian in the West Country and said it looked like a London one, the driver said it was and "they were rubbish in London and they are rubbish here!"

[@jamesfrench7299]

Was told the Titan was a much better drive and much more advanced than the Olympian despite sharing the same drive train.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

LOL, that's interesting to hear about the Olympian compared to the Titan! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@dminalba]

Some B15s ended up in Scotland in 1990s after London Transport retired them and Stagecoach Western Scottish took some of them for their flagship 4 route from Glasgow City Center Buchanan Bus Station to Newton Mearns a short lived 15 minute service while the route to Ayr was a 30 minute service using a brand new fleet of single deck Volvo B10Ms with Alexander PS bodies. The moquette inside had the late 1970s pattern also used on London Underground’s D78 District Line stock and 1983 Jubilee Line stock. As for the B15s they were repurposed as school buses. In Glasgow GGPTE and their successor Strathclyde PTE after the failure of the B15 order bought a small fleet of Mk1 MCW Metrobus, then a large order of Volvo Ailsa B55 Mk3’s from 1980-1985, then Leyland Olympians. Also from 1983 Mk2 MCW Metrobus in 2 batches in 1983-1984 & 1988-1989 following the end of production of the Leyland Atlantean a bus that was synonymous with Glasgow from 1960s to 1990s

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Thanks for the additional information of the Titans in Scotland! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@dminalba]

The London Transport moquette used in Titans also London MCW MetroBus was known as Misha Black. Also some WYPTE buses in the late 1970s used the Misha Black moquette

[@scammell23]

Great video, always enjoy your content. Just a quick note that at 7 mins 51 seconds, that is a Tyne & Wear PTE Scania Metropolitan, not a Metrobus. Metrobus came after the Meteopolitan 👍

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! I'm glad you really liked the video! Oh yes, it was my error for showing the wrong bus as the Metrobus. I must have been tired, trying to finish it! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@scammell23]

Your films are fascinating. I own a restored 1972 Tyneside PTE Leyland Atlantean, GBB 516K. I take it to local classic vehicle shows with my family. It’s great fun and nice to drive, very curvy bodywork. There are some videos of it on KZbin if you search the licence plate GBB 516K. Many thanks, David.

[@themistocleszammit]

I greatly enjoy your videos, discussing vehicles that I knew and admired as an enthusiast. The TN15 in my view turned out to be a robust and long lived vehicle; examples were in service on Merseyside where I live well into the 21st century (albeit after extensive refurbishment work by MTL). I may misremember but I think back in the day there were tentative discussions between BL the Scottish Bus Group and Alexander’s about having TN15s bodied by the Falkirk concern though that came to nothing. I clearly remember at the time that many potential purchasers were put off by the lack of choice of body manufacturer.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! I am really glad you enjoy watching my videos!!! Thanks for the additional info, very interesting!

[@johncourtneidge]

Magnificent Jeffrey, as always! Thank-you! The elegant front dome showed Roe's stylish influence. Leyland should have gone for both Titan and Olymian outputs simultaneously. But the Marxists sunk everything

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Thank you, John, for your insight and for continuing to watch my videos!!

[@autumnmatthews3179]

Really nice looking buses. I always look forward to a new video

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Very happy you like my videos! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@briankay4713]

Great buses Jeffrey.....and a good presentation too .....these B15 Titans were super good looking ...very advanced and reliable and long lasting too .... Liverpool built up a huge fleet of used vehicles .. Think they would have a been a massive success ...if they could just get them built. ..... Birmingham and Manchester would have standardised on them I feel Also lots of the features went into the chassis only Olympian...so nowhere near a failure

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Really glad you liked the video! Yes, too bad they couldn't build more! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@jamesfrench7299]

There was a lot of features borrowed from the Leyland National like the driver's cab, integral construction using Avdelok rivets, the front wheel hubs and more!

[@CharlieFlemingOriginal]

Loads of these were bought by Alpha in Hull in the 2000s (London moquette) they were dusty, shook like mad at stops and traffic lights and the windows rattled alarmingly. Driven rough by drivers meant upstairs you hung on for dear life, then 2006... All gone!

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Wow, that's interesting to hear...what an experience! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@laszlokaestner5766]

I think a lot of the rural bus companies, particularly the National Bus Company owned ones ran Bristol VRs which were simple and reliable. These companies mostly went over to the Olympian once it was available.

[@AndrewMarsh-si6zs]

Bristol developed the B45 as a replacement double deck bus chassis, which was transfered into the Leyland empire to boost production at Workington - closing the Bristol Commercial Vehicle (BCV) factory in the process. Then, just as B45 gathered pace, the Government tore up the bus subsidy arrangement so killing the main customer demand over night as operators sought to buy up used buses instead. B45 went on into Volvo Bus, where it continued to sell, re-engined once again.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Thanks for that additional information! Thank you very much for watching!

[@jamesfrench7299]

Soi Buakhao's channel has many videos of the type running around London he took from as early as 1985 through to the 2000s. I first saw them on TV in a promo on SBS in Sydney wearing the Leyland scroll badge that's why I liked those better than the earlier round badged ones. I rode some when I visited London in 1999 and was disappointed in their sound as I assumed they had Leyland engines and thought they sounded like they were worn out. It was the normal sound of a Gardner I was hearing. Wish I knew at the time!

[@craigbeaumont414]

Another great video thank you, keep them coming!

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Really happy you thought it was a great video!!! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@adamlee3772]

Great video Jeffrey. I think the Titan is a really good looking bus and was ahead of its time. Sad it didn't do better really. Hope to see you do a video about the Atlantean, (unless you already have and I'll try and find it), and also the Olympian.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Really happy you liked the video! I have not done a video on the Atlantean or Olympian yet, so I might do one in the future! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@ChrisCooper312]

My local operator had a big batch of ex London Titans in the early to mid 90s, with the last ones lasting into the late 90s.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Awesome! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@pacerchaser9434]

Hull were another municipal operator to order Titans- they ordered 10. After lots of delays Leyland agreed to supply 15 Atlanteans instead. I think the Titan would have sold much better if Leyland had managed to fulfil the orders, regardless of which factory built it. I'm sure operators would have ordered more...if only they could get some in the first place!!

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Thanks for the info about Hull! It would have been interesting to see how many more Titans would have been built...a question we will never know the full answer to. Thanks very much for watching!

[@highpath4776]

Lesney Matchbox 1-75 bus had been the Daimler Fleetline Londoner, and wasnt a bad model ( dreadful in King Size Form ) but was retired and replaced with the Titan shaped one. excellent little toy buses ( I wish their front wheels turned) and worth getting for your backdrop.

[@jamesfrench7299]

I have four very rough ones.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Oh, good suggestion, I may look for one! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@NickRatnieks]

Very good video, Jeffrey. The iceberg that sank the Leyland empire, seems to have been the very bad labour relations. I can recall over 40 years ago how this saga unfolded at so many British Leyland plants across the land- the Triumph factory at Speke and Longbridge in Birmingham being two classic examples but clearly, Park Royal Vehicles- at Park Royal was another less high profile nightmare and so it continued. I can clearly recall the day in early 1980 when the strike ballot regarding "Red Robbo'" and his reinstatement at Longbridge was unsuccessful and many felt that we had turned a corner. He can be found on Wiki under his other less well-known name of Derek Robinson.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Really glad you liked the video! I have to look more into this character from Leyland...maybe a good video idea, LOL! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@StephenAllcroft]

@@JeffreyOrnstein Derek Robinson was a scapegoat for the ideological media at the time, he was a union representative at the Cowley factory (which today builds the MINI for BMW and was then building the Marina and Maxi) and had no role in labour relations in the wider group. Records at the British Motor museum showed he solved many more labour disputes than he started. AEC and Park Royal both had the problem of their location near enough to Heathrow for people to leave to a better job in aircraft. In general labour relations in the Truck & Bus Division were good and although Scammell was also in outer London it did not have the same problems as AEC and Park Royal. The TN was offered to Eastern Coach Works but the employees at Lowestoft did not want the large increase in semi-skilled workers that this would involve; as none of the workforce at the Lillyhall plant had served an apprenticeship and unemployment was high in West Cumbria the TN was greated with open arms.

[@chrisbolton5461]

Another superb video. Packs a lot in a short time. Loved this bus, though probably too much too soon.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh, thank you so much for your compliment - I'm really happy you liked the video!!!! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@phillipware5255]

T1983 was painted gold to celebrate London Transport's golden jubilee in 1983 and not for the Queens silver jubilee (as stated in the video) which was in 1977.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

OH, thank you for that clarification! I think i will add that to the description to try to correct my error. Thank you very much for watching!

[@francisnewmarch6837]

Ooh. Your research is flabercasting to say the least and only to be superceded by your enthusiasm. Cheers and regards from London Ps Love the accent

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh, thank you so much for the compliment, I really really appreciate it!!!! Really happy you liked the video and my Brooklyn accent, LOL! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@paultaylor7082]

Jeffrey is from New York, as if you couldn't have guessed that already!

[@ronmccullock1407]

When the Leyland Olympian B45 was launched in 1980, it was chassis which operators wanted so killed the Titan, the Olympian used the Titan running units but a chassis

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh yes, I can imagine that the Olympian really did in the Titan, it was what they really wanted....

[@bobsmoczkiewicz]

Partly the strike and then closure of Park Royal too operators like West Midlands had 135 ordered but were told huge delays because of closing Park Royal down.

[@ronmccullock1407]

@bobsmoczkiewicz no strike at Park Royal, only one Titan built a week not the 12 which was number to be built, the staff knew that Leyland would close Park Royal and they would get a nice redundancy package and they would get a job at Heathrow, so the staff pushed Leyland to cease Titan production at Park Royal and close Park Royal I have all the paperwork

[@ronmccullock1407]

@@JeffreyOrnstein correct

[@bobsmoczkiewicz]

​@@ronmccullock1407And lose loads of orders by doing it. Daft that is.

[@russb2286]

Grt vid

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

I'm very glad you thought it was great!! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@highpath4776]

Got a photo of the B15 Demonstrator (004) in London livery going round Parliament Square, London. I have no idea why I was in the area that day, might have been for an event at Westminster Central Hall, and it was one I took on my 127 Kodak Brownie camera with its larger format negative I got a full A4 approx print done of it and it looked pretty good. Being in London the T Titans got placed over East London - Romford getting quite a few , and this wasnt my main area and I was still seeking out the last RTs but I didnt mind getting a Titan and they seemed actually fairly reliable for the income regional areas of LT for its maintenance as the Aldenham method wound down. The Park Royal Bodies seemed good and I think it was probably better than the M Metrobuses but the likes of Fulwell had they local M fleet to me.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Thanks for relaying your experience with the Titans! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@tonymento7460]

It would be cool as a HO Scale bus on a train set

[@christopherpearson4489]

the only drawback with the titan was that you had carry water upstairs to refill the cooling system. i drove them for seven+ years and they were much better then the metros which i sometimes had to drive

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Very interesting to hear about your experience with the Titans! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@andrewbowen4544]

I had the Matchbox toy version of this bus.

[@officialmcdeath]

My parents used to take me to Hampstead Heath at weekends and we often saw the B15 demonstrator on the 24 - after the hideous rattly DMS the production version was indeed luxury but that moquette was a bit nauseating \m/

[@ralphbalfoort2909]

Are double-deck busses all that common in rural service? I can see them in cities where US operators use articulated single level buses to get the same capacity.

[@StephenAllcroft]

They were at the time, National Bus and the Scotttish bus group had done market analysis to discover where their passengers were travelling and then re-cast their networks to make sure the drivers were driving full buses, this required more double deckers.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Oh, I wish US transit agencies would use double deckers. It probably won't ever happen. NYC tried them on the express routes between Manhattan and Staten Island, but decided against it. Las Vegas uses double deckers, but that's about it.... Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@highpath4776]

Depends what and where you class as rural. Most run into a town eventually. The Bristol LH variants was the NBC later years choice and some independents too for narrow roads and tight corners, but the Bristol VR would also appear. Oxford ran generally double deckers (in part as leyland nationals at 10m+ were too long for many bends) out to some of the oxforshire villiages, Bristol from its garages on a in part common route provided a series B leyland national when I worked in the arear

[@scrumpydrinker]

Yes, in the South West of England they are extremely popular as having vehicles cascaded down into the fleet from other locations in the company (this is a large operation which is nation wide) is an efficient way of maximising vehicle use. Premium vehicles such as Volvo, Scania, Dennis and Mercedes can be kept in service for up to twenty years and moving them to an area in which they are less intensively used makes a great deal of sense as intensive urban operations can be demanding in maintenance terms. The joke was always when we had vehicles cascaded in from a city operation was that 4th and 5th gears were pristine but 1st, 2nd and 3rd were utterly shot, in city work they rarely got above 15mph. The only drawback with a decker in rural operations is you have to be aware of the Height of the thing as overhanging branches and low bridges can be an issue.

[@englishrob8245]

I was kid living in Bournemouth 70's-80's and I never saw a Titan. usually they were Olympian, Fleetline, Atlantean, VR and older front engined buses.

Just build a version without the top deck and it would appeal to operators outside the big cities.

[@nameless5413]

Always a shame to see clever idea be dismissed by the target audience of it on basis of funds but alas that is one of the biggest things in public transport and Leyland should have known better. I personally think world would be better if Titan took off enough to secure profit for the sick Leyland. But i think that of many things the manufacturer did - ultimately there were too many people in charge of too many things and no one clear direction to fix the underlying chaos of the massive mergers. (a company that became victim of its own size). Love the video however as always enjoy peek into the other types of public transport then my beloved trams (light railway). Especially into other counties where i am only tangentially aware of what was going on. I realize that is a LONG time ago and there may not be enough information any more but what about PB2 (Schneider-produced bus), see the Parisian public transport is wild, and apparently around that time they had big fascination with having a Terrace on busses with is just ... strange, in good way.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Oh, yes, Leyland became way too bureaucratic to survive! They simply didn't design a bus most bus companies wanted. Will look into the other buses you mentioned. Thanks very much for watching!

[@1208bug]

😊❤👍

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Glad you liked it, and thanks very much for watching again!!!

[@paulmason329]

There was a Leyland Titanic built by the real Leyland Motors It was a three axle model which was built in the late 1920s but was insensitive as the disaster was only some 15 or so years. earlier. Merseyside PTE bought a demonstrator but cancelled orders and opted for the chassis based Olympian . I mentioned Merseyside but ex London Leyland Titans were bought by MTL out of desperation to retire 20 + year old Leyland Atlanteans . Deregulation made operators cash strapped so used buses were the only game in town .MTL didn't like two door buses because of fare evasion so the centre dooors were locked and paneled over. The London destination blinds were expensive to replace and the instability of the route network meant blind linen became obsolete and MTL could not afford to fit new equipment on top of the other work.. The ex London Titans became Liverpool s bus of the 1990s and soon other local firms bought them but these buses were not in the first flush of youth and soon MTL had one sixth of the ex London fleet were running alongside ancient Atlanteans and without London style maintenance soon became shabby and creaky .MTL sold out to Arrival in 2000 and retired 100 of them. However a new company which bought a former MTL buses depot in 2001 bought more by which time the Titans were decrepit and attracted.media criticism. The new firm , a management buy out but soon the firm GTL got into difficulties and Stagecoach a national company bought the firm .Stagecoach were quick to retire the rump of elderly Titans by 2006, using middle aged but much younger buses from fhe national company. Stage coach had many used Leyland Titans. Some were to give 25-30 years service but towards their end became shabby and an embarrassment to the operator and the city of Liverpool, their adopted home . One or two were preserved in GTL/MTL livery but those not preserved were profoundly WORN OUT!😅

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Oh, wow, thanks for all of the great information!! Sounds like the Titan simply could not soldier on outside of London! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@jadeboswell-rz2ly]

Dad has said that the Titan was a great vehicle but its production run alongside the last series of Atlanteans, with its new technology to the bus market made it undesirable. So it was never to be a large fleet concern. more a PTE and Municipal vehicle and with the Olympian, coming online to replace the Atlanteans and VR's and slow production made it lost cause to the NBC.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Thanks for all of this additional information, I guess the Titan was never destined to take over the bus market! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@garricksl]

Fleetline is very successful in Hong Kong. Titan sucks when CMB and KMB wanted high capacity rear-ended double-decker. The solution was to get MCW or Dennis Dragon.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Oh yes, too bad the three axle Titan was never built for Hong Kong! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@garricksl]

@@JeffreyOrnstein Even worse, Dennis Dragon/ MCW Metrobus carries more people than Titan; Leyland Olympian was released later and plays catch-up with the Air Conditioner from Denso. CMB got in trouble for not buying enough air conditioner buses and left to form New World First Bus.

[@garricksl]

@@JeffreyOrnstein PS. You can't have a 3-door Titan. Dennis Dominator plafform was much better. As a kid, I would feel happy to ride a KMB three-door Dennis Dragon .

[@Peter-mj6lz]

10:41 Reminds me a lot of Wright Gemini 3/ streetdecks

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh yes, especially the similar window sizes. But I think the Titan looks better :) Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@dminalba]

I hope you do a video of the MCW MetroBus and the MetroRider

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! I will look into the MCW Metrobus! Thank you for watching!

[@dminalba]

@@JeffreyOrnstein You should one of the engine options was American Cummins LT10 and LTA10-B282

[@ablestringer9063]

Is it that difficult to turn a single decker National into a double decker?

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

LOL, I guess it was!!! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@TR25W]

I enjoy your videos, but oh dear, showing a Scania Metropolitan and describing it as a Metrobus...

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh yes, my error!!! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@leopoldbluesky]

As a driver in the late 80s in north London, I would often find myself driving a MCW Metrobus following a Titan up the road - I really wanted to have a drive of one but I would have had to have moved to an east London garage to do that, so sadly it never happened.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Thanks for sharing your memories of driving in London, and almost driving a Titan! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@BobAbc0815]

A Bus that complied with each and every Piece of Regulation in the entire World? I bet that caused a worldwide Surge of burocratic Memos, regarding the urgent Need for more Regulation.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

LOL, as a former government employee myself, I can certainly imagine this happening, LOL! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@dustind3960]

I womder how much gmdd of north america paid for use the fron window design on the gmdd classic busses later mci and later novo bus?

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! LOL, that's a good question. the Classic was built in Canada, so maybe the GM subsidiary up north had an arrangement with someone in the UK... Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@shnorth888]

Maybe GM just copied the design 😉

[@RobertMostin]

Review for volvo aisle

[@StephenAllcroft]

Jeffrey has done the Ailsa.

[@MattF340]

8:31 China received 1 Bus, probably then produced 100s from the design :)

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

LOL, that's probably correct. Definitely would be today! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@ronmccullock1407]

I worked for Leyland and know a lot about B15.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

That's great! If there's anything interesting not covered in the video, let us know! Thanks for watching!

[@ronmccullock1407]

@JeffreyOrnstein yes I will do I love your videos

[@markc3874]

Thought that the Titan was better than the Olympian

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Good to hear your opinion on the Titan!! Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@shuttersl]

Leyland buses used in Britain 70 years ago were brought back to Ceylon and used here. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gKaqmJ-sltaojNUsi=xRp1COAt4dPfR0D3

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Thanks for watching and for the info!!

[@GraemeWight-wx3xz]

I really really miss these. I cant stand the new buses. The seats force you to sit with huddled shoulders. You have to sit in the middle taking up both seats. I havent used them in ages. If i cant get there by bike or foot i dont go and theres zero point buying a car coz their shit now too. If was to get a car it would be an old mustang. Get them for 10,000 euro in nederlands with chevy small bloc engine. Cheaper than 10 if you get a scrappy engine and fit it yourself. I cant remember the places name but its in a plsce called Lisse. Kinda of inbetween Nordwijk and the Dam.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Hello! Oh, yes, today's buses are not up to the comfort standards of the 70s! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@johnmontgomery9149]

To be honest Jeffrey although I only have experience of driving older B15 Titans, in my opinion they were piles of crap. Leyland being Leyland by this time wanting to monopolise the bus industry and not listening to operators and trying to sell operators what Leyland wanted and not what the operators wanted hence a lot of business going to rivals such as Dennis, MCW, Volvo and Scania in the U. K.

[@Keithbarber]

As I said in my own comment, some liked them, others loathed them, but I still liked them from both passenger and drivers' perspectives I'm not going to criticise you for your own opinion...

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

Oh, wow, thanks for that insight, very interesting, I guess not everyone liked them, and for good reasons. Thanks very much for watching!!!

[@highpath4776]

@@Keithbarber Was the Titan the first bus at workington after Leyland had bought NBC share out ?

[@johnmontgomery9149]

@@Keithbarber not a problem mate. As I say I only have experience of older ones that were let’s just say well past their scrap date let alone their sell by date. For the record I was a great Leyland fan.

[@petersmith4455]

hi, why call it a Leyland when it has a Gardner engine in it, a Leyland 0.680 would have don the job,i think they were acting the goat on this one

[@StephenAllcroft]

The L11 was a Metricated 680 and the TL11 a Metricated 690. Operators however loved the Gardner. Partly Leyland made the rod for their own back by insisting in the early days on the use of the 500 series.

[@porcelainthunder2213]

Typical also, the Unions had to introduce problems that hindered and ultimately ruined the products success.

[@JeffreyOrnstein]

LOL, that happens a lot, even today (e.g. Boeing)! Thanks very much for watching!!

[@stanleybest8833]

Titan is too tall.

[@johnpapworth433]

Militant unions ruined quite alot of British industry

[@paulmason329]

As did greedy (mis) management and the British Tory government a abolition of the New Bus Grant and the long cursed 1985 Transport Act and deregulation which really killed the British bus building Industry. .