The long haul to electrify heavy trucks | FT Rethink

[@ध्येयसनातन]

why not actually invest in electric freight rail. that will yield results in cheaper well known form of travel and then use smaller electric trucks and delivery vans around the cities..

[@krac3x438]

Electric freight rail in the US isn´t viable anymore, like 1% of the US railway network is electrified and they never invested in gradually upgrading this. To do it now in a heartbeat would cost hundreds of billions of dollars the US simply doesn´t have.

[@photoo848]

@@krac3x438 so one year of US's military budget? Edit: Federal highways receive an annual budget of $64.3 billion vs Amtrack receiving $2.3 billion. You could shift those budgets for the next 5 or 10 years and easily find the hundreds of billions needed to make a good headway on the railway network.

[@ध्येयसनातन]

@@krac3x438 didn't you guys give trillion dollar bailout to few banks few months ago.. why not use those funds as long term loan and upgrade the whole network at scale. Today it's always going to be cheaper than tomorrow.

[@Re_RAM]

@@krac3x438isn’t that what the infrastructure bill is meant for?

[@jgruen9854]

Because of rapid delivery requirements, freight shipments are now highly disaggregated, getting loaded just before they are needed to be transported. Trucks work best in this application as trains are always going to be slower unfortunately.

[@DudeFrom1972]

I think that the australian company Janus Electric both solves the problem of range anxiety as well time it takes to recharge batteries and then we have clueless Scania (and other similar companies). I think the optimum solution is a battery which can both be recharge and swapped depending on the situation.

[@anydaynow01]

Here's to hoping Hyliion brings their carbon negative hybrid EV RNG solutions international. Eventually they will run fuel cells and full BEV for short haul solutions but their main focus right now is long haul cross continent big rigs.

[@AtillatheFun]

You people do not understand the basic need of truck companies. They need to be able to burn fuel so they can carry more stuff and make it past the scale. Batteries cannot do this, so you need a liquid fuel.

[@OrmondOtvos]

@@AtillatheFun Tesla semi disproved this. Also, use cases...

[@AtillatheFun]

@@OrmondOtvos How did it disprove the fact that you need to shed fuel? Also, the damn thing keeps breaking down.

[@hurrdurrmurrgurr]

@@AtillatheFun And it was being overtaken by other trucks running heavier loads.

[@darylb5564]

30% of the emissions and carry 100% of the freight. That doesn’t sound too bad. Electric trucks have many great applications. What I’d like to see is hybrid trucks. There are so many hills that I’m waisting energy trying to stay below the speed limit on the other hand there’s many times going up hill that I could really use a boast that electricity would provide. A huge benefit would be when parked. I would guess I use about 5 gallons of fuel per day just for heating and cooling my truck while parked. I would be much happier running off of a battery. Oh well. It’s just a thought

[@kristinehatkinson7323]

Hybrid such a temporary fix: what happens when fossil fuel is outlawedin the mid 2030's?

[@darylb5564]

@@kristinehatkinson7323 every fix is temporary. Technology constantly evolves. I’m just saying for right now with what we have today for over the road a hybrid would be the best option. As for fuel being outlawed… you will not live long enough to see that day. I know for sure I’ll not.

[@jaaklucas1329]

What you are getting at here is an REV. Electric drivetrain with an onboard ICE generator to charge the battery on the go like a diesel electric locomotive. Edison E-trucks is doing this.

[@bigmikeswiss]

There is an electric solution for longhauling transports in place since over 100 years. It‘s called trains. Unfortunately, politics of the last decades ignored this in favour to truckindustry-lobbyists, doing obviously a much better job. Carrying bulk and containerized freight for thousands of kms is nothing new on rails. Distributing the goods then, from hubs via no-local-emission-vehicles of any technology, would help to avoid polluting this whole earth with all the chems needed for those inefficient battery products and productions. Why always those „investment inc.“ push so called „new technology“? They only are interested in maximizing their own profit - ROI of speculatice invests, and never care about keeping this planet a bit cleaner.

[@luc_libv_verhaegen]

*sigh* Why was at no point dealt with real world facts and figures? How much is the battery capacity of the trucks being talked about? What is the energy usage per km for these trucks? If any of that had been mentioned, then the whole topic would have been demystified and fully defanged, but that does not generate clicks. Then, if you add in driver working times and speed limits, everything is solved. The Volvo electric truck has a small battery with 200-395kWh. A documentary I saw a few months ago showed a trip from Berlin to Munich, and with all the ups and downs in between (electric trucks really love going up and downhill, regenerative braking for the win!), this truck averaged just below 1.2kWh per km. This means that the truck has a range of 166km or 329km in real life. This is 2 or 4h driving at the speed limit (which is 80km/h). The Tesla Semi has a 500 or 800kWh battery. When the Semi was delivered to pepsico a few months ago, tesla presented an uncut video of the semi doing a round trip around nevada. This almost fully loaded truck used around 1kWh/km on the 500mi trip. 1kWh with a 500 or 800kWh battery means that this truck can drive 500 or 800km in one go. That's 6h15min or 10h at the european truck speed limit (80km/h). In Europe, drivers are limited to twice 4.5h of driving (and unloading/loading) per day, with a 1.5h rest period in between. This means that it a long haul truck can only drive 360km before it can recharge for 1.5h. And then it can drive the other 360km before recharging for 13.5h. 1.5h of recharging at a bogstandard 250kW charger is 375kWh, or 375km of range. A huge truck battery can easily take 250kW until 90-95% capacity and 375km is more than can legally be driven in 4.5h. 13.5h of charging time to reach 800kWh is just under 60kW. So overnight truck stops need just 100kW chargers. We do not need 800kW to 1MW chargers, we need oodles of 250kW chargers on parking spots optimized for big rigs. And we need overnight truck stops with a 100kW charger at every bay. And trucks should be plugged in at big distribution centers while loading/unloading as well.

[@100pyatt]

I find these European driver restrictions hilarious, no wonder the EU is so unproductive as a society, everything there is handicapped by socialist extreme regulations 🤣

[@luc_libv_verhaegen]

@@100pyattAh, given your world view, you must be a fox viewer, and you're wearing a red hat supporting the american facist party.

[@Chris.Davies]

One thing you did not touch on is that trucks do about 50,000 times as much damage to a road as cars do. If you took trucks off the road entirely, the bill for road maintenance drops to almost zero. And yet it does not cost $250,000 to register a truck each year. The true cost of trucking is therefore hidden, and it's NOT a user-pays system. It's a fraud on the public.

[@kradius2169]

2:12 ... Cement Australia Janus truck just burned up in Melbourne. Top suspect would appear to be the Lithium battery.

[@Meower68]

Diesel fuel and engines have significant energy- and power-density, respectively. This is why trucks, locomotives and ships use diesel. Batteries have nowhere near the energy density. Yes, you can make a long-haul truck with a 500 miles-per-charge range but the batteries are going to be very heavy; enough so that they're going to eat into the amount of freight the truck can carry. An increasing number of people are determining that a plug-in hybrid vehicle would be more ideal than a full-on battery electric vehicle, for personal use. If local driving can be done on electricity, with only long-range running on petrol or diesel, that greatly reduces the amount of fuel they need; the vast majority of personal trips are short-range. Trucks are primarily long-haul vehicles, so they wouldn't benefit as much from such tech. But hybrids, of any stripe, benefit from regenerative braking. With normal braking, your momentum / kinetic energy gets turned into heat on the brake pads / shoes / rotors / drums and gets thrown away. With regen braking, you turn it back into electricity, which you can re-use. A plug-in hybrid truck with, say, 50 miles range on a charge would have enough battery that it could easily regen brake all that mass from motorway speeds down to full stop, and supply enough power to get the rig from a full stop up an entrance ramp and up to motorway speeds. The battery could also regen all the energy from descending a long hill, even a mountain, and provide the majority of energy needed to climb the next one (regen braking isn't 100% efficient but it beats 0% efficiency seen with traditional braking). The diesel engine would only be needed for cruise power, which would greatly reduce the size (and fuel consumption) of the engine. Trucks already use a Jacobs / Jake brake to use the engine to decelerate the vehicle, minimizing wear and tear on the brakes; drivers would have little difficulty adjusting to large-scale regen braking. If we can get the liters per 100 km down low enough, it may be possible to transition to biofuels or e-fuels instead of petro fuels. If you only need to recharge 50 miles of range, you can better-use opportunity charging; it's plugged in while you're loading or unloading the vehicle, such that you don't have to spend longer periods of time charging. You wouldn't need megawatt-scale chargers. 50 miles range usually means a 100 kWh battery. Most such batteries can fast-charge to 80% (80 kWh, in this case), then they need to slow down; the latter 20% always charges slower. An existing 250 kW charger can stuff 80 kW into that battery in about 20 minutes. Existing Tesla V3 Superchargers deliver 250 kW; V4, which is starting to roll out, more than doubles that power. ABB is delivering chargers which can handle 360 kW. These are chargers meant for personal vehicles. They would be sufficient for a heavy truck with a 50 mile battery. And 20 - 30 minutes charging time could easily be done at a loading dock. There are batteries out there, though, which are made to handle full charge in as little as 10 minutes; use those for the trucks, as they would need the higher-power-density to handle the regen on a heavy truck. The trucks would have no need to idle while sitting in city traffic and would have no direct emissions while driving in city traffic. This would help air quality in cities, sooner rather than later. The cost of the battery is significant. Reducing the size of the battery needed, per vehicle, would reduce that cost and make it a lot easier to roll out the next 1,000 such vehicles; battery production is currently a bottleneck. Since it would still be using diesel (but considerably less of it), you wouldn't be as dependent on charging stations or battery-swap locations. Too many people seem to be stuck with the idea that it has to be all-or-nothing; either we go 100% battery or we stay with diesel. There is plenty of grey between those black-and-white extremes. While we can't replace all current petrofuels usage with biofuels and e-fuels (simply not enough production of either), we are already starting to transition. If we can get consumption down, while we scale production up, we can meet in the middle. And, as at least one or two commenters on here have suggested, if trucks simply moved freight to / from a rail hub, with electric freight rail, we wouldn't need to have a conversation about long-range battery-electric trucks.

[@replica1052]

there is a billion cars and a million ships in need for batteries - scale for infinite (for ships - start with ferries, tugs and cruise ships )

[@robertwalker9130]

Very good statement, thank you

[@davidty2006]

There is an alternative to batteries. wires and cables. We had fully electric busses 100 years ago they used wires above the road, even some trucks were tested and worked on it as well.

[@replica1052]

@@davidty2006 (batteries are practical -wherever there is electricity you can get a charge )

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

DEATH TO FOSSIL! And now we may start the discussion whether one BEV is more cost effective than another manufacturer. But first: DEATH TO FOSSIL!

[@Re_RAM]

The future of long haul trucking is in developing countries with poor rail networks and difficult terrain. Is the industry preparing to introduce electric those markets or will they continue to dump old ICE stock that doesn’t meet western emissions regulations there?

[@luc_libv_verhaegen]

there will be a lot of fluctuations in the price of fossil fuel in the next decade or so, and the price will always be set by global pricing. Once oil is no longer being pumped and converted in the scale of today, then its price will become very high indeed. Most developing countries are much nearer to the equator than, say, most of europe. These countries get excellent insolation, and are going to skip electricity grids entirely. Electricity prices will differ upon location and time of day, and the charge state of the fixed installation batteries at charging stations. Developing countries have much more to gain from electrification both through renewable generation and through batteries.

[@lachlanp3365]

I would probably say it's both, it will likely take a lot of time before the remote areas in developing countries to be able to accommodate electric trucks. But once they are common in the major developed economies I think we will see a s curve adoption rate

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

We have electric trains in whole of Europe. Since the 1960s (Germany was last with steam). They are by far not sufficient.

[@ulrichwindheuser4234]

How to publish a documentary about electric trucks but saying no word about Tesla Semi? Really strange… 500 miles/800km range and mega chargers already there!

[@100pyatt]

Because the Tesla semi trucks are a FRAUD in real life proven by Pepsi when loaded to same as Diesel semi

[@timmurphy5541]

Long haul trucks are a problem but there is apparently plenty of short haul trucking so lets not sit around moaning while there's something that *can* be done.

[@davidty2006]

Drivers don't want to do long haul trucking anymore as well. Sooo the entire industry needs to change otherwise theres gonna be no one to drive.

[@OcienOnce]

Swappable Battery technology is best for heavy trucks because. an electric vehicle have too much costing into the battery. this battery Swappable technology help to reduce cost of ownership of battery pack

[@ronaldgarrison8478]

Thumb down for turning on CC without asking.

[@mnipp]

Electric road on Wikipedia points to a Swedish report the cost of different systems. An in the road surface rail for power such as Elonroad. A conductive pickup under the vehicle connects to the rail via sliding contacts, and the rail is only active one meter at a time when covered by the vehicle, making it safe in a city environment. The system is capable of delivering up to 300 kW with 97% efficiency while driving.

[@julianbrelsford]

I bet it'd be very costly, but some type of road-length wireless charger (inductive charger) connection seems like it should be possible.

[@davidty2006]

There is the overhead wires above the roads.. Basically returned to trolley truck

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

@@davidty2006 Nonsense, just imagine the cost for 100s of thousands of kilometers of highways to be electrified!

[@mnipp]

@@julianbrelsford Overhead power lines, despite having the most mature technology and least expensive infrastructure, are the most expensive overall because they only allow tall commercial vehicles such as trucks and buses to charge while driving, while non-commercial vehicles cannot use the wires to charge while driving, so they will have to use static charging that requires larger batteries with higher capacities than batteries required with the use of dynamic charging. Ground-level power supplies allow dynamic charging for all vehicles, which greatly reduces the required battery capacity and size since the battery is charged while it is being used. The reduced battery size and capacity reduces cost by about five billion euros annualized for the entire Swedish automotive fleet. The two types of ground-level power systems are estimated to have equal costs for all the components in aggregate other than infrastructure; the conductive rail infrastructure is estimated to cost about 1 billion euros annualized, while wireless inductive infrastructure is estimated to cost about 2.8 billion euros annualised.

[@youngyingyang]

Scania should team up with Tesla, adopt their connectors and split the cost and revenues from charging stations.

[@laurentiuslafoca]

railways - in certain countries have been electrified, for how long?

[@laurentiuslafoca]

Sorry too easy, let's try something much more difficult 🙂

[@davidty2006]

Electric traction has existed since atleast 1890's. in both 3rd rail and overhead wires.

[@100pyatt]

And yet it's still a failure for freight movement even with massive government/Society tax money subsidizing

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

Battery swap systems are a dead end. The industry would have to make a standard for swappable battery modules. Such a standard takes at least 10 years. In 10 years either the OEMs have gone bankrupt and Tesla has won or Scania, Volvo, Mercedes, Traton, Proterry, Cascadia and everybody else sell their electric trucks with fixed batteries or their own manufacturer specific battery swap.

[@jaaklucas1329]

Already doing this commercially.

[@malcolmhedges7346]

err, Tesla semi ?

[@100pyatt]

Let me Correct that for you: Tesla Range Advertising FRAUD ✅

[@patrick247two]

Use trains.

[@jaaklucas1329]

Trucking is cheaper than trains.

[@CHMichael]

The problem with big trucks is that they need lots of batteries .... and batteries are expensive.

[@ChadWilson]

And the weight takes away from freight weight.

[@CHMichael]

@ChadWilson last mile and delivery in congested areas will work well but on a route from Chicago to LA diesel is hard to beat. .... I could see a turbine as a generator for electric motors could be interesting.

[@ChadWilson]

@@CHMichael, agreed that for last mile, this would be a fantastic option.

[@richyfoster7694]

The other good thing about swappable batteries is they can charge slowly, so less load on the grid.

[@madsam0320]

Also increasing the lifespan of the batteries.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

@@madsam0320 Why should battery swapping increase the lifetime of batteries?

[@erkanaltinsoy1]

@@wolfgangpreier9160 Slow charging increases the lifetime. Fast charging decreases.

[@prakashh7541]

​@@wolfgangpreier9160 Charging batteries faster will increase heat, which in turn degrades the life of the battery

[@ArturFlies]

Even more - bateries can be charged when there is excess electricity from renewables and charging during peak electricity usage can be avoided. A lot of benefits for swapable batteries in heavy transport !

[@paulslaughter2366]

Maybe somebody could invent some sort of heavy--duty electricity-powered locomotion that could be powered via overhead catenary power lines. Oh, wait ... I think I just invented the electic train! Electric trucks make sense for local use, but locomotives would be the way to go for long-distance shipping.

[@Simon-dm8zv]

Of course, but you will steed need large numbers of trucks.

[@markthomasson5077]

They have it in Germany, although presently very small scale

[@100pyatt]

Trains constantly DERAIL and are hugely INEFFICIENT at delivery times on all goods

[@jaaklucas1329]

Did you know locomotives are diesel electric? The ICE diesel burning is a generator to provide electricity for the electric motors that power the wheels.

[@photoo848]

Volvo Trucks has been delivering eletric trucks in 2021 and 2022. Why did FT focus on Scania who is at least 2 years behind?

[@229andymon]

Good question, but why not also feature the Tesla semi-truck, which is now in (very limited) production and already resolves many of the issues raised?

[@alwaysinmoney3538]

Probably bought a few ad spots

[@photoo848]

@@229andymon probably because Tesla trucks have a load capacity less than half of the standard. An electric truck is expensive, two even more so. Needing an extra driver on top? Yeah, Tesla is not in this race atm.

[@229andymon]

@@photoo848 Not according to Tesla, or the specs (or price indications) for their truck. And that’s with *today’s* battery tech. Which it’s obvious will be improved soon.

[@karmanline2005]

Scania PR department doing a better job?

[@229andymon]

It doesn’t make logical sense that a company can convert a diesel vehicle to BE for far less than it costs to buy a new BEV. Otherwise you have the crazy logic that it would be best to *make* EVs that way….. There has to be other factors at play.

[@richyfoster7694]

I think when he said " essentially a new truck with the turning circle of a small planet " he means this truck has a brand new powertrain, even if the steering is so last century . My understanding is that they repower old trucks.

[@Tim_Small]

There is less tight integration, and more modularity (and compatibility) between manufactures and models in trucks than there are in passenger cars.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

@@Tim_Small No, there are certainly not more modularities in trucks. You can not replace a Diesel-powered truck with electric motors any easier or cheaper than you can electrify a Porsche 911.

[@richyfoster7694]

@@wolfgangpreier9160 and yet it turns. Janus have just announced a joint partnership with some copper miners. Repowering a roadtrain fleet and providing battery swap stations, which will be solar powered since there's no grid Outback.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

@@richyfoster7694 Sure it can work in a small community. Very locallized. And Australia as a whole is a very small community. Compared to e.g. Canada . Or Brazil. Or even Germany or California. Oz will never get a Tesla Semi btw. But thats another point. So: Yes i can believe that Australia gets such a system. The rest of the world? No.

[@WhiteEvo6]

7min story on electric trucks and not a single mention of Tesla Semi, why? They have the most advanced product in market by a country mile, they charge 70% in 30mins vs 4-6 hours of their competition. Clearly FT has very poor reporting or is this is an advertisement with less than half the facts on purpose. Very average 👎

[@ЦзинКэ-ы5х]

I still don't understand how and why retro-fitting\converting old ICE cars into electric are not receive attention and funding at a large scale.

[@100pyatt]

Hybrid conversion is the only intelligent upgrade

[@ryuuguu01]

if you put grid batteries at the truck charging stations ( like Tesla does ) You can charge the stations' batteries in off-peak hours cheaper and without as many transmission upgrades. If you use cheaper lower energy density batteries ( they are stationary weight and volume don't matter) like Form Energy iron batteries it gets even cheaper.

[@dpg227]

A company called Hyliion has found a different way to charge electric-powered trucks. Rather than plugging them in to the electric grid, it uses an on-board natural gas powered electric generator to charge the batteries. Since the generator burns natural gas captured from sewage treatment plants, hog farms, and landfills, which would have otherwise escaped into the atmosphere, it's operation is actually considered carbon negative. Two big downsides to conventional plug-in electric trucks are that they require significant up-front expenditures for changing equipment and put an outsized demand on local electric grids -- downsides that Hyliion-powered trucks avoid by charging their own batteries with the on-board generator. What's more, Hyliion works with established truck manufacturers like Peterbilt to install its powertrains into popular semi-truck models that companies and drivers are already familiar with.

[@virupakshawalla5734]

Why not just have gas powered engine lol

[@dpg227]

@virupakshawalla5734 save money and hit emissions requirements.

[@spacetomato1020]

thats useless you might as well just run it on natural gas then

[@dpg227]

@@spacetomato1020 Good point. If you're gonna put a nat gas generator in it, why not just put a nat gas engine in it and run it on nat gas? Because the nat gas generator charges electric battery setup is cleaner and cheaper. It qualifies for all or most of the zero electric vehicle tax credits that a full electric truck does, and the axle in the electric motor allows for regenerative braking, which recharges the battery when the braking. It also has a plug so you can plug it in like a battery electric vehicle if that charging infrastructure is available. You can also run entirely off the batteries emissions free for up to 70 miles.

[@tobiwan001]

There are several highways in Europe that allow trucks to run with overhead electric wires. You should have included that.

[@kristinehatkinson7323]

But then, they need to leave that highway to make the delivery.

[@tobiwan001]

@@kristinehatkinson7323 for which they can use smaller batteries that charged while they were on the highway.

[@GinoFoto]

Another space-time really, somewhen in the future sure, but clearly not any decades soon, replacing 6.2 mil. trucks which carry 77% of all goods in EU, that's so call long run.

[@RARDingo]

I think Janus has the right idea. They are predicting that their drivetrains will be good for 3Million km. The OEM truck manufacturers need to rethink their strategies.

[@BjorckBengt]

Electrification of vehicles require investments, but the payback is great. This will happen much much quicker than analysts expects currently.

[@abbersj2935]

Why will it?

[@zapfanzapfan]

It's like any technology adoption curve, like switch from film in cameras to digital cameras, slow at first and then suddenly everyone buys them.

[@abbersj2935]

@@zapfanzapfan Only to a point, if the technology requires too many compromises it will fail. Remember mini disc? Polaroid cameras? Betamax? Concord?

[@claudiutamas79]

@@abbersj2935 This Is not about compromises but about better alternatives. For all your examples, there are alternatives. Also, in this example, a better solution is good news.

[@jrhackman7414]

You’re going to actually increase carbon footprint in the short term, so you better be sure it’s the best technology to invest in.

[@Tim_Small]

Overhead catenary power on major routes would be cost effective, but requires significant upfront investment, probably more practical than hydrogen fueling infrastructure tho'.

[@mnipp]

Overhead power is also expensive to maintain. Electric road on Wikipedia points to a Swedish report the cost of different systems. An in the road surface rail for power such as Elonroad. A conductive pickup under the vehicle connects to the rail via sliding contacts, and the rail is only active one meter at a time when covered by the vehicle, making it safe in a city environment. The system is capable of delivering up to 300 kW with 97% efficiency while driving.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

A BEV truck costs 250K-350K and has a ROI of 1-1.2 million kilometers when it becomes cheaper than a Diesel. Usual run times of trucks are between 2 and 3 million kilometers in Europe. Overhead power would cost trillions for whole Europe. You would have to electrify from Lomdonderry to at least Istanbul and from Agadir to Trondheim. Or do you want to tell the Swedes they will not get any more fruit from Morocco? And the Irish they will not get any more Olives from greece?

[@123afekete321]

I guess, FT is reporting from a parallel universe where Tesla doesn’t exist. 😂 I mean I’m sure many are sick hearing about Tesla. But it’s one of the only if not only data points of a production long haul vehicle operating in the wild.

[@OrmondOtvos]

Always a pleasure to watch an expert workman ply his trade - in this case, a fossil fuel advocate. Old former facts: three times as expensive; too much peak load; slow ramp on trucks. Pepsicola is laughing to the bank. Musk keeps tuning his factories, collecting huge subsidies akin to oil subsidies...

[@dojocho1894]

I saw the hearings on capitol hill for electric trucks the US will have to build 25 nuclear power plants to supply the infrastructure it doesn't exist today Truck batters weight 8K pounds each and some trucks need 2-4 of them the highways can stand the weight and this there is less storage on the truck so they have to have 4x the number of trucks so the infrastructure demand is beyond capable of handling that.

[@100pyatt]

CORRECT ✅EVs are pure idiotic FANTASY in 2023 and the next 10-20 years. HUGE Grid changes are needed amongst the terrible power density of current battery technology ⚠️

[@curtisdaniel9294]

I am not suggesting that this would solve all the problems of electric long haul trucks, BUT has anyone thought of putting solar panels on the sides and/or tops of the trailer? Would that help increase the distance a truck could go - especially in areas where daylight sun is strong, say Australia, the desert highways of the USA and Southern Europe to name a few?

[@tettazwo9865]

I doubt it would do more than top-up.

[@Genius_at_Work]

@@tettazwo9865 I never did the Calculations for Trucks, but completely covering a Car in Solar Panels would yield roughly 2 kW. That's a Tea Kettle, or 2.7 HP. And that is assuming the Car was in Space around the ISS, without Atmosphere or even Clouds to interrupt the Light.

[@virupakshawalla5734]

They would get stolen in Govan 😢

[@whyno713]

Electric motors are wonderful, batteries not so much. Look at how Germany has approached the problem of trucking with hydrogen/electric.

[@patrickjr11]

The total cost of ownership with hydrogen is very high as are the number of points of failure within the system. Hydrogen will never be anything more than ultra niche for any transport sector especially one where delivery schedules are fundamental. Add to that hydrogens terrible energy efficiency and major issues with supply and storage of the fuel itself and it's not really a surprise that it's never gone anywhere. Battery swapping is interesting for HGVs as it the use of pantographs on motorways that are starting to appear. I don't agree that ubiquitous BEV HGVs are years away, I think the euro 7 changes in 2025 will mean that they will be standard for new sales from then.

[@229andymon]

Disagree. If you look at the predicted developments inc timescales of BEV - sodium, solid state etc, the conclusion you reach is that it’s a matter of time before battery electric will answer almost all trucking requirements. Indeed the Tesla semi-truck already does. Hydrogen will never make sense and never see mass adoption. Fundamentally, why use electricity to make a fuel to achieve motion when you can use the electricity directly?

[@patrickjr11]

@@229andymon completely agree here.

[@229andymon]

@@patrickjr11 I’m surprised there aren’t more people telling the Hydrogen Emperor he has no clothes. I see some applications for it, but those don’t include road transport.

[@patrickjr11]

@@229andymon hydrogen is a beautiful science. Just amazing what you can do with it but it's a really crap technology and always has been. It's the fundamental reason it's not everywhere already. And nothing has changed about hydrogen since science started to play with it. It's still hydrogen, a very dangerous hard to handle industrial gas. And that where it will remain. No matter what the ultra fans might hope. Hydrogen is what it is. Hydrogen.

[@ericpinder1197]

It takes three phase power to 'fast charge' a BEV which is likely to be powering any large building, but most homes are single phase and would take overnight to charge from empty to a full battery with a standard charger. As a mach-e owner I generally only charge at home and leave the house with a full 'tank' every day in part while I sleep. Long haul truckers will also be plugging in at the stops where they rest now (federal rules about 'hours on road' and such). Truck stops and travel centers mostly have the commercial grade power already will likely have a lot of incentives to wire up their lots as many already park there overnight using the business's showers and consuming its food.

[@100pyatt]

They are not wired for the extreme amperage requirements of charging semi trucks at the needed minimum of 500kw up to 2Mw per truck fast charge. Most truck stops have about 15-25 pumps and it would require literally a Power Plant just to run one single truck stop... Where TF is all the power coming from ????? This is pure FANTASY

[@marktucker208]

The solution for the trucking industry are hybrids. You can run the electric motor in an urban environment until you need to charge, then use the diesel engine to recharge the battery while still driving. Also you have the hybrid assistance to help accelerate from standstill, help trucks get up to speed faster, help with climbing hills, help with overtaking and crucially there are no range issues and increased fuel mileage. Downside is the added weight to trucks will reduce cargo capacity, can that drop in income be overcome with the cost of fuel saving?

[@100pyatt]

10,000% Agreed, Diesel Electric hybrid is the ONLY SENSIBLE and Realistic solution 2023 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻✅

[@jaaklucas1329]

What you are getting at here is an REV. Electric drivetrain with an onboard ICE generator to charge the battery on the go like a diesel electric locomotive. Edison E-trucks is doing this.

[@Backseatobserver0075]

Are people in the logistics industries living in a bubble ? Really !! nobody has herd of TESLA. The Tesla Cybertruck thats already in light production and testing . Has 800km range and charges to 80% in 30 minutes , not to mention 45,000 plus supercharges world wide and growing by 1 every 3 hours. Drives past any other Diesel truck going up hill like there standing still.

[@AtillatheFun]

It also loses range with more weight added to it, is not currently being sold, and long haul trucks need to burn fuel so they can carry bigger loads and make it past the scales.

[@Backseatobserver0075]

@@AtillatheFun If your talking about the Tesla Cuber truck that's not correct 800km range is at full load.

[@johntheux9238]

@@AtillatheFun Tesla Semi has 500 miles of range fully loaded and over 40 of them have been sold.

[@100pyatt]

​@@AtillatheFunAND IT'S HUGE WITH ZERO SLEEPER LOL

[@100pyatt]

​@@johntheux9238FALSE ⚠️ Pepsi is Finding Gross WT is only 150-250 miles range. Tesla is a FRAUD

[@anydaynow01]

Hyliion has some very good long haul carbon negative RNG hybrid EV solutions, they definitely have an upper hand. Hope they bring their solutions to the international market as well as Clean Energy being an international player in RNG digesters and distribution.

[@mattstirling7494]

Calling it Janus Electric is a little two-faced, if you ask me.

[@tomz1364]

Poor journalism! Other players in the field have not been mentioned. Some have arguably better strategies and are advancing rapidly.

[@nithinn987]

Why should truck be electrified? They should be hydrogen based. Common sense. Sometimes Elon Musk screws up the future.

[@Simon-dm8zv]

Hydrogen is stupid because it wastes insane amounts of energy.

[@100pyatt]

Elon should be arrested for his FRAUDULENT Advertising of range to the ignorant non fact checking public that's commonly only 50% of what Tesla fraudsters advertise⚠️

[@alexlifeson8946]

Electric, self-driving trucks owned by Elon. And there go your jobs.

[@100pyatt]

BINGO

[@SacerKtracho]

Nikola is already leading the way

[@abbersj2935]

This is the same aregument that can be used for cars. Swapping batteries is the way to go.

[@jrhackman7414]

That would require even more batteries. Are you ready to allow those big dirty mining operations in your part of the world?

[@abbersj2935]

@@jrhackman7414 Nope, you're wrong, cars could have more than one battery fitted, if doing short local trips, only one need be fitted, or due to quick changeover smaller ones could be fitted as standard. If going on longer trips fit two. Therefore less battery capacity is required most of the time,

[@mrm.5787]

Tesla semi…. enyone? No? Tesla megachargersystem.

[@Blockiee]

Even Tesla is struggling so hard with the semi they even't will not answer questions about the semi. they didn't share any numbers on the semi on 'the production and delivery' press release of Q2.

[@AtillatheFun]

@@Blockiee It keeps breaking down. It is a serious issue.

[@johntheux9238]

@@Blockiee The Semi works really well, but it's only in limited production and delivered to a few customers for testing. The next vehicle to enter mass production will be the cybertruck in the coming months. Volume production for the Semi will only start next year.

[@100pyatt]

EVs are a train wreck for the supply chain. Range is pathetic and electricity at most chargers is now as expensive as diesel or more 🤣🤣👍🏻🤡🤡

[@k-getrengganis7401]

Instead of battery electric, why don't people use the water turbine-like engine? It'll be unlimited because water just circulating around the engine, pumped out from the tank, sucked into the turbine, and pushed into the tank again, circulating (except when the system leaking water). You'll still have a regular altenator, a regular air compressor, a regular AC compressor, etc. If this (battery electric) applied in rigid trucks, would it work because of what I see in this video is that Janus and other manufacturers used it in the semi-truck as well as short-to-medium distance rigid trucks and there is also a rigid truck that go long distance and even more long distance than what they're expecting for just one way, like in my country, Indonesia. Delivering logistics from Banda Aceh in the north-westernmost point in Sumatera right to Malang in nearly easternmost part of Java. Nearly 100% of it, are rigid trucks, because of the narrow road it tackles. And, why is it going to electrifying anything? Why don't people just didn't litter the water with garbage and why peole just don't depend on big cities to make more money? That'll be long-term ways, as well as reforestation and less-coal fired powerstations. Frankly, I'm not a battery electric type of man, I prefer the electric train-liked type or hydrogen-fuel cell one.

[@100pyatt]

Hahaha lacking understanding of basic grade school level physics 🤣✌🏼

[@mikewallace8087]

Tesla delivered 20,000 cars to HERTZ. HERTZ decides , get out of here.

[@rubyvolt]

if the top of the trailer was solar panels, that could make the current for driving. Gee, what a concept.

[@AtillatheFun]

That makes no sense. Not enough surface area to justify it.

[@100pyatt]

It would make about 1/10th the power needed but at least it would help the cause and not be wasted roof space

[@RexBennett-w5v]

Not sold on the ev road tractor. Would rather see a plug in hybrid diesel/electric.

[@100pyatt]

Hybrid diesel electric IC/BEV is the logical and practical solution until battery power density improves and the power grid Quadruples it's capacity✅

[@jaaklucas1329]

Check out Edison trucks. Pure electric drivetrain with an onboard diesel generator. Like a diesel electric train locomotive. Called an REV in E cars.

[@ace-tv4hi]

Cremation companies now going EV mobile what a great idea! who would have thought?.

[@freedomfan3277]

Can't wait to have all those fire bombs on the roads.

[@100pyatt]

TOXIC HAZMAT Fires ... ☠️⚠️☠️

[@2008mustapa]

what is he talking about? china long haul truck have in production for years.

[@grezjoseph6257]

A View from the UK. Imagine sleeping in this death trap while recharging.

[@misosoppa3279]

Move it to rails

[@100pyatt]

Tried that, doesn't work

[@NickDDDD]

Tesla Semi ?

[@100pyatt]

Yes, Tesla FRAUD, correct✅

[@paker51]

Janus has had a cement mixer burn down to the ground last year due to lithium fire.

[@Dr.Gehrig]

How the hell yall gonna discuss electric semis and what they are capable of and not mention the Tesla Semi? This report is far from complete.

[@100pyatt]

Elon should be arrested for the FRAUD he's committed with the semi and all his fraudulent advertising of range. He's only getting HALF the advertisement range in the Tesla semi at 82k gross weight

[@22secret77]

there will not be any long haul electric trucks, batteries wont do it !!!

[@adam872]

Or they could take the route that JCB have and go with hydrogen

[@Ccrippie]

Possible YES Practicable NO

[@DougGrinbergs]

6:24 Northvolt mobile charging stations

[@virupakshawalla5734]

I can stop long haul emissions by 20% overnight. Cut your consumption by 20% bur expect a great depression 😂

[@Houthiandtheblowfish]

electric truck is the worst idea hybrid and hydrogen is better option for big vehichles

[@luc_libv_verhaegen]

Get actual data, and do the simple math.

[@Houthiandtheblowfish]

@@luc_libv_verhaegen if you want to virtue signal ev is better if you want it to practical and doesnt pollute cities you go hydrogen or hybrid and hydrogen works better on trucks cause it can have a big hydrogen liquid tank which cars cant fit

[@luc_libv_verhaegen]

@@Houthiandtheblowfish Read through the other comments here for some actual facts and some simplistic math.

[@bekicot88]

For long haul, better to use hydrogen

[@luc_libv_verhaegen]

Find my top level comment which explains the numbers for existing battery electric trucks in real world scenario (kWh per km, versus speed limit, versus driver rest times). That should give you a sense of just how good electric trucks are today. Hydrogen is always fun to debunk. Hydrogen has excellent energy density, but that is gravimetric energy density (kWh/kg), it has totally useless volumetric energy density. To the extent that you cannot contain hydrogen at atmospheric conditions, in fact, hydrogen will float out of our atmosphere and into the sun, eventually. To be able to deal with hydrogen in an acceptable space it gets compressed to 700bar, and then it needs the appropriate pressure vessels and infrastructure to deal with such pressures, which totally ruins the energy density question. Then, to create hydrogen, you can do SMR, which is 74% efficient at scale. If the methane feedstock comes from Siberia, and is being converted in say, Ludwigshafen (germany - find out what big polluter and political player is there), then 20% of energy is wasted extracted and transporting said methane (the pipelined gas needs to be recompressed every few 100km). This makes a conversion rate of fossil methane to hydrogen of just below 60%. If you create hydrogen through electrolysis, then you are looking at a electrical efficiency of 40-60%. You then need to compress this hydrogen, and transport it to the hydrogen fueling stations. At all points temperatures and pressures need to be kept at 700bar. You then burn, slowly, said hydrogen in a fuel cell, and fuel cells are between 40 and 60% efficient. Fuel cells like it hot (400C), and need extremely pure air, and they do not do load changing well. So any hydrogen vehicle ends up being a battery electric vehicle with a fuel cell range extender. From this point on, the hydrogen car is just as efficient as any fully electric car. So even if you factor out transportation and keeping the hydrogen compressed, and the drivetrain and charge losses of an electric car, you are still looking at 16-36% efficiency compared to a battery electric vehicle. The big plus of hydrogen is this: the current model of oil companies selling us fossil fuels can be retained. In fact, these money printing companies would love to usurp our excess electrons from our own photovoltatic systems on our roofs for cheap, and sell us a third of the energy back expensively. And it is the propaganda of these companies that you have been hearing, but all it takes is a few facts and some simple napkin math to show just how ludicrous hydrogen really is. Also, for some real world info: look for "bjorn nyland" testing the "toyota mirai" here on youtube, just a few months ago.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

No, hydrogen is much too expensive.

[@graemeadams9331]

The US company Hyliion has the best solution to this problem, and their Hypertruck ERX is available today.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

Does it run in Norway? Germany? Greece? Shenzhen? Australia? No? Why not? Because it does not sell.

[@matthewbaynham6286]

Well that was a very negative tone to that video. The fact is every major lorry manufacturer has already been selling electric lorry's. Maybe not the longhaul but for example the volvo trucks that went on sale two years ago have a range of 300 km. Which for shorthaul is more than enough. Remember lorry's can only drive 4 hours at 100km/h before the driver is required to rest. So a longhaul lorry will need to dtive 400km. Fast charging is always 0-80%. So the lorry will need to do than 400km with about 80% of the battery. Next year VW will be releasing a car with a 0-80% recharge time of 25 minutes it's the id.7. And that will not be the fastest recharging car on the market, the record is currectly 18 minutes. So it's very realistic to have a longhaul lorry with todays technology.

[@AtillatheFun]

No. There is a difference between short haul and long haul. Long haul trucks need to burn fuel so that they can load more while staying under the weight limit of scales. This is not possible with batteries.

[@matthewbaynham6286]

@@AtillatheFun wrong

[@AtillatheFun]

@@matthewbaynham6286 Long haul trucking is not the same as the trucking within cities. It requires fuel shedding. It isn’t an opinion.

[@matthewbaynham6286]

@@AtillatheFun the terminology you used "fuel shedding" is just some non-sense you invented in your imagination.

[@carkawalakhatulistiwa]

Use train . Or trolley truk

[@jaaklucas1329]

Trucks are cheaper than trains.

[@tigerphid9677]

The average electric car weighs 35% more - about 1,000 lbs. - than its gasoline counterpart. It is bad for the environment and for our energy supply to move all that extra weight, and it harms the roads and wears out vehicle tires more quickly as well.

[@TankEnMate]

Not at all really, ICE engines are about 14~21% efficient, where as BEVs are about 90% efficient. BEVs also tend to have far better drag coefficient, and above 50km/h drag scales at the square of speed, twice the speed 4 times the drag; so a lower drag coefficient goes a long way. So overall BEVs are far more efficient (mainly because they need to be).

[@100pyatt]

​@@TankEnMateFALSE try 30-50% end power result running from Grid with chemical based lithium batteries. This is the reason for this EV Fantasy. Jesus the ignorance is astounding. People lack basic electrical understanding and chemical battery knowledge. LITERALLY every step of power transfer in EV is significant losses of original input energy that was generated

[@localnyraccoon]

It's far more efficient to use trains. Why are we using trucks?

[@Simon-dm8zv]

You still need trucks, cargo trains or not.

[@100pyatt]

Because trains are still a FAILURE even with 100 years of MASSIVE Taxpayer Subsidizing

[@jaaklucas1329]

Trucking is cheaper than trains.

[@007kanatan]

Hydrogen is the way forward, once the mass production be possible. Electric still use unethical mining and nuclear and coal power plants. Just my opinion

[@AtillatheFun]

How is nuclear unethical?

[@johntheux9238]

You can use LFP batteries for short range trucks thought. NCA batteries (containing cobalt) are just for long range vehicles.

[@007kanatan]

@@johntheux9238 hi John, green hydrogen is the way forward it’s already on the way in Uk, big fuel companies such as esso, Bp, shell are buying back existing forecourts and now aiming to open hydrogen supply by 2025.

[@johntheux9238]

@@007kanatan Aiming for something is not what I would call results.

[@johntheux9238]

@@007kanatan Hydrogen production and consumption is only 30% efficient. So it's very expensive to refill.

[@lucar.5045]

I just realized. In case of a grid failure, a region wide blackout, how does the truck will move around to deliver aid and repair crews and materials? Also, think about the military: military trucks can't hope to find a charging station in an area of conflict.

[@100pyatt]

The trucks all stop

[@jaxcell]

While I'm all for Electric Vehicles, we have to stop thinking they are "Carbon Free". The phrase, There is no such thing as a Free Ride isn't just a phase but a fact.

[@100pyatt]

#Greenwashing 100% they're FAR from "Carbon Free" or "Carbon Neutral" ... It's quite the opposite with current technology 2023 ✅☠️⚠️☠️

[@jeanlefranc3817]

As a way to reduce GHG emissions in countries with less than reliable power generation, usually using a mix of coal and fuel oil in power plants, wouldn’t the use of UCOME be an economically overall more sensible option ?

[@adamcole4808]

Yes but Australia has more solar/wind than it knows what to do with so no problem being 100% renewably powered. But I don't think battery swopping is the answer. 1MW charging could recharge these on 30ish mins and every 4 hours a professional driver has to stop for a break anyway. But focus on short medium haul first where they go to a depot every might and do a max 400km in a day. That would be a huge co2 saving with little disruption and huge fuel cost savings.

[@Dr.Gehrig]

What the hell is UCOME? And why would you ask a question with an acronym like that? Also, no, fuel oil makes up less than 3% of global electricity and in Europe in the US coal is less than 20%. Direct Electricity is clearly the way forward.

[@jeanlefranc3817]

@@Dr.Gehrig if you had the slightest interest in low carbon forms of energy, a 5 second Google search would have explained what UCOME means, and why it is relevant as a fuel for trucks. Then, I was mentioning areas with unreliable power supply, which is usually not the case in Europe and the US. If you keyboard warriors spent a little more time thinking before shooting comments, the Internet would be a better place.

[@100pyatt]

NO

[@100pyatt]

​@@jeanlefranc3817you clearly have no working knowledge of the transportation industry do you

[@replica1052]

(solar battery chargers be welcome everywhere )

[@matthiasknutzen6061]

Electric roads will be far cheaper I think, the batteries van be much smaller and the number of mw chaeging stations can be reduced.

[@petesmitt]

Electric trucks.. what a pipe-dream; more likely to get long haul electric trains before trucks; how about planes?

[@jaaklucas1329]

Long haul electric trains are electric...diesel electric. The motors that drive the wheels are electric and the diesel is for powering the ICE onboard generator.

[@petesmitt]

@@jaaklucas1329 The video is about BEV trucks which depend on batteries, which is nothing like a diesel-electric trains which depend on diesel engines; to be clear, electric motors are great, it's the batteries that need charging that are total crap.

[@jaaklucas1329]

@@petesmitt My point is electric drivetrain is superior regardless of the fuel. Edison trucks uses this concept,E drivetrain with onboard generator.

[@petesmitt]

@@jaaklucas1329 My point was that battery electric trucks, trains, planes will never happen.

[@jaaklucas1329]

@@petesmitt My grandfather told how people laughed at the first automobiles.But eventually horses had to go because the streets were so polluted with horse crap...

[@hbarudi]

So far it is pilot project to upgrade truck delivery systems, but there are still other issues especially the long haul situation in USA with freight trains getting bad press as they would otherwise be more efficient than any truck even electric. But it might work for smaller countries including the mentioned Australia which is at least half the size of the 48 states USA...

[@tonespeaks]

@hbarudi Trains are the most efficient way to transport for long distances, but Electric Semis are the way to go from Depot to Depot. In the USA 75% of Semi travels are within 250 miles / 400km from their base/depot. This is well within the range of a Tesla Semi. Since these trucks can be charged during off peak times, there would be little need for Grid expansion or update.

[@tomasromero9573]

Add pantographs to all highways, as a method to charge, as the vehicle is moving.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

Yes, sure, Imagine some truck driver transporting oranges from Agadez to Oslo. Or machine parts from Ausin to Seattle. Or batteries from Shenzhen to Guangdhou. Could you please tell me who would electrify 100s of thousands of highways?

[@100pyatt]

​@@wolfgangpreier9160🤣🤣☝️☝️💯💯💯💯

[@faridjafari6356]

Why don't they put solar panels on the container behind the truck which can help the truck batteries get charged while moving or even being parked? Even if it does not fully charge the batteries it reduces the number of times the truck has to be charged so that the truck can go a longer distance after each time of charging.

[@jeanlefranc3817]

The answer is simple. These trucks probably use 60 kWh to drive 100 km. The top of the trailer, fully covered in photovoltaic cells would, in the absolute best conditions (noon to 2 pm on a clear and sunny day) generate 6 kW, most likely 3 kW in realistic conditions, so 3 kWh in one hour or 6 kWh during the time used for the truck to drive 100 km. So 10% of the demand during daytime driving and 0% as soon as it gets dark.

[@faridjafari6356]

@@jeanlefranc3817 Even 10% is better than nothing and please consider that the truck is not always driving and when it is parked the electricity will be stored in the battery for the driving time

[@luc_libv_verhaegen]

It's not necessary, batteries are good enough for electric trucks today, and range and charging speed is not an issue. Look for my top-level comment on some facts and some napkin math.

[@faridjafari6356]

@@luc_libv_verhaegen Yes but receiving an extra charge from top panels can reduce the times the truck has to stop and charge the batteries plus the solar energy is free.

[@jeanlefranc3817]

@@faridjafari6356 maybe you have noticed trucks are not always towing the same trailer ? In order to work effectively, a majority of trailers should be equipped with PV panels, for that time when its connected to an EV truck. The cost would be prohibitive

[@johnowens8992]

Will need oh lines on main roads

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

Too expensive. There are already trains and they are by far not enough.

[@karolbagh3793]

Green Hydrogen is right choice for long haul heavy trucks

[@beyondfossil]

There are very large logistical challenges with transporting and storing hydrogen which is extremely low volumetric density at STP. Moreover, there's lots of energy loss compared to using that electricity more directly -- may only have 66% of input energy remaining.

[@karolbagh3793]

@@beyondfossil not 66% even lower 30-35% end user efficiency

[@gregorysagegreene]

Aussie trucks look lame compared to my yank semi. 🚛💥💨 A thing I learned from Terry McCrann many years ago downunder is you have to live in America to be capable of commentating.

[@andrewfreeman8859]

Great voice-over, I could really feel the passion! lol

[@tettazwo9865]

Professional, and thankfully without a "lol"!

[@dominiquecoladon8343]

Fake news about diesel technology

[@macberry4048]

They talk about charging stations affecting the grid but it might be possible to put charging stations in places without a grid by making a hydrogen power station or using some type of generator that can use different types of fuel. I don't know about Europe but America already has charging stations using diesel generators and I guess it shouldn't be surprising

[@100pyatt]

The diesel charging stations are hilarious examples of this EV IDIOCRACY