THE LONG RUN: are you doing it wrong?

THE LONG RUN: are you doing it wrong?
What is your favourite type of long run?
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[@andrewfeher224]

Earlier this year I ran my first sub-3 and BQ, and I think one of the major contributors was including long stretches of a 2.5 hour long run -- anywhere from 12 to 16 miles -- at or faster than goal marathon pace. Those have been my favorite types of long runs during marathon training, as they allow me to practice fueling at goal pace and give me a pretty good indication of whether goal pace is feasible or not.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@andrewfeher224 big congrats with the sub 3 and BQ! That’s huge! 🥳 You really have your training a good effort and it’s been shown that the average training pace (all training combined) for Boston qualifiers is significantly faster than non-qualifiers.

[@RaulViitor1]

How frequent did you run those? Did you run every long run like that?

[@andrewfeher224]

@@RaulViitor1 Some long runs would be at a steady pace -- somewhere between easy and marathon pace -- but most were long run workouts with a good amount of marathon or threshold pace miles in them.

[@RaulViitor1]

@@andrewfeher224 Thanks for the reply. I will implement something like that in my training.

[@seans7513]

This just about matches my longest hardest workout for marathon training, 3ish miles warm up 10 at goal pace, then 2X 2 miles at 1/2 marathon pace. with ~ 3minutes in between and then cool down. I have failed to make pace in the last mile of work out and still was able to run a sub 3.

[@cdhikes2906]

Training for my first 50mi ultra. My plan had back-to-back long runs almost every week ranging from 12mi with active recovery the second day all the way up to 20mi with 3hrs at 10min/mi pace the second day (there was also a 50km with 1hr the second day). I probably won't do that many back-to-back long runs in my future training (because they can be brutal), but I imagine that I'll be glad for them on race day.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@cdhikes2906 you’re really putting in the work! You’re going to do great! 💪🏽

[@cdhikes2906]

@@its_Matt_B_ Thanks! It'll be tough, but that's half the fun!

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@cdhikes2906 100%! It wouldn't be worth doing without the challenge!

[@vetboyschmo6093]

My long runs tend to be 20-22km. Half marathons are the goal at the moment. Mostly just done long and slow. Occasionally, I'll do a fast finish for a couple kms.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@vetboyschmo6093 You’re putting in some good distance training for HMs! 💪🏽

[@vetboyschmo6093]

@@its_Matt_B_ did my first one a few weeks ago. It was spontaneous - didn't know it was happening until Fri. No specific training but it was super fun. I have a couple booked for the fall and winter. I'll try to properly prepare for those 🤙

[@annewright3486]

I’m with you on the long, slow runs! My favorite workout. And I agree that for most marathoners, 20 miles is enough. I’m training for the Chicago Marathon in 11 weeks! Are you training for a race right now?

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@annewright3486 LSRs FTW. I’ve been running with an expectation I will run a fall marathon, but I didn’t know what I would do until last Friday. I haven’t announced it yet…standby! 😂

[@annewright3486]

@@its_Matt_B_ Can't wait to hear about your fall racing plans!

[@nathanm.9971]

Currently my long runs are about 10 miles as I'm still recovering from plantar fasciitis, and not yet ready to resume Marathon training, but want to be ready to sign up for a half if I feel like it.

[@its_Matt_B_]

What are you doing to treat your PF? How long have you been suffering with it? I guess it's not too bad if you're still able to get out for 10 milers!

[@nathanm.9971]

I took time off by cycling for a few weeks, did lots of stretches, and still use KT tape for longer or faster runs.

[@Wings_nut]

I ran a 22-mi LR w surges yesterday. Long runs are my fave.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@Wings_nut 22m is a serious long run! Nicely done! 💪🏽

[@Wings_nut]

@its_Matt_B_ Thx Matt. It was a serious workout made more serious by the gusty wind advisory, which, of course, was in my face during the surges. Oof!

[@shesagift1]

Training for marathon 10 in Chicago, and I love doing long runs with intervals. Breaks it up, gets the legs moving! My favorite is a 14-18 mile LR with a longish warm up and then repeats of 90 seconds hard and 5 mins at marathon pace, then a 2-3 mile cooldown. Great for simulating the elevated HR of the later part of the race without having to run 20+ miles! But I’ll never say no to a good 2-3 hour long run with a podcast or audiobook either!

[@its_Matt_B_]

I forgot to mention it, but you made a good point about adding in those repeats to break up the monotony of the long run. Also, just knocking out the long run with an audio book can be a real treat, and a good way to get through a lot of your book in one go! Good luck in Chicago!

[@ianlowe4126]

Hi. Always an interesting topic. I’m 63 and been running 20 years. I’ve learnt the limits of my bodies endurance to a point where I don’t specifically train anymore for races. I stick my year round routine of 3 short midweek runs ( 3-5 miles ) and a long weekend run ( 8-10 miles ) then go to the race ( up to half marathon) if I’m running a marathon I do the same but just add a 14 mile 2 weeks before then a 16 mile the week before then go to the race with no taper to maintain momentum. I adopted this method at the Berlin marathon in 2015 after overtraining for London the year before and it worked a treat for me in NY and Chicago. If find this takes all the stress out of following a strict training plan physically and more importantly mentally. Good video thank you.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@ianlowe4126 Interesting take on training and I love the idea of being ready to run AND race all year long. I can see myself moving to this approach in the future.

[@ianlowe4126]

@@its_Matt_B_ Hi Matt. Thank you for your reply. Matt I am in the process of starting my own KZbin channel dedicated to the older runner. I have employed a young film maker to help me make the first 5 videos and we begin filming in august. It would be great if sometime I could interview you about my training methods and to compare them to someone as young as you and see what we can learn from each other. Would that be something you might be interested in? If so let me know and I’ll forward my email to you. I live in the Uk. Many thanks Ian

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@ianlowe4126 Hi Ian. Yes, that sounds like fun. My email is [e-mail]

[@iberiksoderblom]

I have four "categories" of Marathon long runs. The Economical: 28K. When I've for some reason, could be sickness..., gotten to close to the date of the marathon and needs to do one or two long runs right before the event. Then adding more shorter (12-15K) runs instead. The Standard: 32K. When I can do two of those with no issues, fourteen days appart, three weeks before the marathon, at a pace just below the wanted marathon pace, I know I'm flying 🙂 The Show Off: 37K. When I'm actually ahead of my marathon training plan (it happens 😀 ) I do this three weeks before the race. The Excessive: 45K. When I'm for some reason is stuck on a plateau. It doesn't have to be fast or pretty or efficient or anything. Its just about the distance! It makes me get a feel for what I'm strugling with physically / mentally and shows me that if not anything else, I can actually do the distance.

[@its_Matt_B_]

Impressive categories and reasons for doing each one. How many marathons have you done? I ask because it seems like it would take some some (years) to develop these categories. Do you have any fall races coming up?

[@iberiksoderblom]

@@its_Matt_B_ Hi' I do not know the exact number of marathons I've run, but I startet in the beginning of the 90's 😀 Some years I've done four marathons, others only two. I'm 61 now, but the categories have not changes in the last 20 years. At the end of each year/beginning of following year, I have most of my races scheduled for that following year, paid for and largly planned for. Some races have priority, while others are part of the training. This years plan is: Date Distance (Km) Event jan. 6: 12K Soul Trail 2024 Cup1 jan. 20: 12K Soul Trail 2024 Cup2 feb. 3: 12K Soul Trail 2024 Cup3 feb. 24: 12K Soul Trail 2024 Cup4 mar. 3: 21,1K NIKE Spring Run mar. 9: 12K Soul Trail 2024 Cup5 mar. 16: 30K North Coast Ultra Tisvilde apr. 1: 32K Hell in North apr. 28: 21,1K Vikingesporet (Viking Track), Roskilde maj 5: 42,2K Copenhagen Marathon 2024 maj 20: 10K Royal Run Kbh jun. 15: 80K Musvågen Ultramaraton Jul. 3-7: 34,6K Kings 5 days (1,6+10+8+6+9) --- aug. 17: 30K South Coast Ultra Møns Klint 2024 aug. 25: 27K Esrum Lake Round 2024 aug. 28: 25K DHL Fælledparken sep. 15: 21,1K CPH Half sep. 29: 42,2K HCA Maraton 2024 okt. 6: 13,3K Eremitageløbet okt. 9: 12K Soul Trail by Night CUP1 - Asserbo okt. 12: 21,1K World Metal Run 2024 okt. 23: 12K Soul Trail by Night CUP2 - Snekkersten okt. 26: 30K Trail Fox Helsingør, Teglstruphegn 2024 nov. 3: 12K Soul Trail by Night CUP3 - Tikøb nov. 9: 21,1K Soul Trail Rude Skov (Start-nummer 1) dec. 31: 10K New Year Run Snekkersten So yes, I have a handfull of races coming up 😀 The biggest change over the years are, that I've cut down on the Ultras (the real ones), as the needed recovery has multiplied with age. I (like any man would 😆 ) ignored it for several years, but the amount of training needed in advance and especially the recovery needed afterwards grew exponentially and startet inflicting my other runs. I dont think I'm doing a 100M again, as here in Scandinavia I find the cut-off times to be a bit brutal to scare off hobby-runners, but I'm ok with that as long as I'm able to do a couple of "longer than marathon's".

[@alanshrimpton6787]

I think when I get up above 20k I consider it a long run but don't take water or gels unless above 24km. I do 2k Repeats. Last weekend I did 7x 2k @ 10sec slower than PB marathon pace and 1k recovery so my HR got back down to Zone 1 so probably 1m/km slower on those recovery. Another long run I do is with Surges. Run 10min zone 1 and then surge to marathon pace for 30sec. Repeating that for about 2hours

[@its_Matt_B_]

Both of those interval strategies sound good, and by good I mean not too difficult, but difficult enough to know you're putting in the work!

[@largeeddie]

Great info, Matt! Long runs have always been my nemesis. I've read and heard all of the advice and tried everything I can think of but have never been able to make friends with them. Other runners say that long runs are their favorites, and maybe that's why some runners do marathon after marathon while others don't. My longest long run ever, while training for my one and only marathon, was 26.5 miles and I felt like having that in my pocket helped in the race, but maybe that's part of why I haven't wanted to do (and specifically to train for) another marathon. I'm mainly running for health and recreation now, and last year I did a couple of 12 milers but my longest so far this year is 9 and change. My mindset lately is to try to regularly do runs of over 90 minutes and to see if I can make that feel routine and at least relatively comfortable, and not think of it as being a step on a progression up to 20 miles or whatever as I've done in the past. I do think that there's a benefit from runs that long for running 5k and 10k races. Even a lot of successful milers have done 16 - 20 mile long runs, although of course those were still two hours or so at a modest pace for them.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@largeeddie I understand where you’re coming from; I only like long runs when they’re done. I can also see how running 26.5 in training before your first marathon would have mentally help you cover the distance in race day! I see what you did with adding the qualifier “relatively” when trying to make your 90 minute runs comfortable! A 90 minute run cannot simply be comfortable if chilling on the sofa is also comfortable! 🤣

[@ivarchr.bjergpedersen1202]

My longest long run when training for a marathon race is 30 km (x1). I prefer ‘with a fast finish’ 😉🏃🏼‍➡️. My next marathon race is Boston next year (5th star - so excited about that).

[@its_Matt_B_]

Boston is going to be huge for you!! Congrats on getting those 4 stars and good luck at Boston! I’ll be there too! The fast finish long run is such. A great way to test your fitness.

[@liamhockey9189]

Typically i would do one out of every 4 long runs with a big chunk of marathon pace, other 3 would be run at easy pace. Doing my 1st ultra next year and was planning on doing back to back long runs for that.

[@its_Matt_B_]

I like the idea of 1 out of 4 long runs being done with some pace work! That seems like a good training stimulus without getting too exhausted from the workout! Which ultra are you planning next year?

[@liamhockey9189]

@its_Matt_B_ it's a 40 mile in the UK called beast of the Blacks a hilly mountain course in Wales

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@liamhockey9189 Ooh! Sounds like a blast!

[@eric-running-to-chamonix]

My wife is training for her first marathon ... NYC. She is very consistent with her running, but doesn't want any complications. She just runs at a pace that she feels good, which is faster than if she followed conventional advice. I have warned her of the "grind", the point in long distance running when you just don't want to be doing it any more. This is the sweet spot. It is what makes a run "long". I typically enter it at 16km and by 24km, I'm really done. I'm flirting with injury around 28km. I ran the Speedgoat 28k (32km in fact, w/ 2000m elev) on Friday. One thing the KZbin videos don't show is how bad the surface is for the majority of the race. Imagine going to a construction zone and running across the rubble and sand for hours, but up and down (and throw in some snow). Dizziness and weird breathing (like choking on dust) on the second trip up to Hidden Peak. I also tweaked some adductor muscle then as well which I mistook for cramping. Oh yeah, I also took a caffeine gel at 24km and instant GI distress. Stupid me, I had Imodium on me but wasn't thinking straight. On Saturday, I suited up for the 50k but 10 minutes before the start decided not to run. Odds of missing a cut-off were too high with the leg and breathing. On the plane, I sat next to a runner who did both but missed the Tunnel cut-off. Looking forward to getting home (stuck in O'Hare as I type this) and doing some actual running. I do have two more stones though, so all good.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@eric-running-to-chamonix Great racing, even with the adductor and GI issues! Also, good call on bailing from the 50k! I thought about you running it as I watched the content pour in! It looked like a great day and an amazingly beautiful and challenging course! Your wife is running NYC as her first marathon! She’s going to be ruined! It’s such a fun and energetic race! Are you doing it with her? I will go if I can score a bib from a brand, but it doesn’t look likely at this point!

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@eric-running-to-chamonix When will you be home?

[@eric-running-to-chamonix]

@@its_Matt_B_ She will never run another marathon, guaranteed. But it is going to be an epic experience. She turns 50 this weekend. Like me, she got in on the lottery. The kids and I will try to cheer her on from as many spots along the route as we can manage. The family has photos of me seeing them on 5th avenue and I'm certain I have NEVER looked happier. Makes my heart grow just thinking about it. I hope you get in, then we can yell for you as well.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@eric-running-to-chamonix There’s nothing wrong with one-and-done, and NYC is the perfect race to do her one and only! Happy birthday to her this weekend!! 🎂🎊

[@Deadbuck73]

Great topic! When I did my last “official” training plans for 1/2’s I believe it had build up of 10 miles as the longer runs. I had found plans that were designed for the beginner, a mid grade runner, and an experienced runner. I started in the basement so to speak and would just run the beginner plan a few times without any race in between and then moved up to the mid level plan a few times. I usually had my A race in September and I had great improvement over the previous years race. Each level extended the number of runs per week as well as the type of speed work but the long runs were always a buildup over the weeks.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@Deadbuck73 You were good to start with the beginner training plan before moving up. Starting with too much volume, like what would happen if you started in the middle category, would leave you with a much higher chance of being injured! Are you planning on a September race this year?

[@Deadbuck73]

@@its_Matt_B_ I had all intentions of it but being honest with the way things are it won’t be the 1/2. I’m going to hope for the 10k. They have 5,10, and 1/2 that day… so I’m being honest with myself and thinking I’d do well to be in the 10k. I’ll keep you posted!

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@Deadbuck73 A 10k still gives you something to shoot for!! I think training for anything is a win. 💪🏽

[@Deadbuck73]

@@its_Matt_B_ I agree!

[@i.p2088]

To the remark "you are probably training for something" .. Yes to stay healthy as I age.. I don't know if a long run.. (what is long) adds to the health.. Most experts say 45 is best, 60 max and longer you get more damage than benifits. My total hours per week is on average 7.5 hours so I guess it's OK 😂

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@i.p2088 You’re running a lot so I wouldn’t worry about a specific time/distance for one particular run. Running to be healthy as we get older is the best possible answer to “what are you training for?”

[@Feanaro5503]

My training long runs max out at 11 miles. But that was enough to run a 1:49 half marathon in April.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@Feanaro5503 Woah! Nice! Clearly you were doing enough work to score a finish time like that! What’s next for you, race wise?

[@Ben.StevenswithaV]

30km or 3 hrs (max time) is my mental goal for the longest run. Covers most variations of paces/efforts/conditions.

[@its_Matt_B_]

Do you mean you vary all paces during your long runs?

[@Ben.StevenswithaV]

@@its_Matt_B_ Normally easy for the bulk of it, then I can chop & change the latter part between goal pace, progression or rolling hills. If I hit 30km under 3hrs it feels like I got my money’s worth.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@Ben.StevenswithaV ahh, I see. Sounds like an epic long run (especially when everything just clicks and you're feeling good).

[@Ben.StevenswithaV]

@@its_Matt_B_ Hopefully people realise you will feel tired & worked after any long run. That’s the point. As long as you don’t feel ‘janky’. If you feel janky then you may need to dial it back & work on mobility & strength PLUS get the problem looked at. For many, long runs may expose muscular imbalances & misalignments not previously seen. Took me a good 9 months to sort most of it out.

[@ABucc]

My longest run during marathon training was 21 miles. My legs felt like jelly, but my legs actually felt better after my marathon.

[@its_Matt_B_]

It's funny how that works, and I know the feeling!

[@PatrickStar-km1dm]

02:45 - My half marathon plan has 4 long runs of 15-16 miles. I don't know what you talking about Matt 😂

[@its_Matt_B_]

Nice! You're really putting in the work, and we're on the same page about me not knowing what i'm talking about! 🤣

[@davidg9120]

Good video! I prefer the slow and easy long run. My last long run was 15 miles. I was tired and I would prefer to be 30 lbs lighter and 30 years younger. 😂

[@its_Matt_B_]

🤣 I'm not sure being 30 lbs lighter and 30 years younger would prevent you from being tired after 15 miles, but it probably wouldn't hurt!

[@Jay-sd9ye]

I'm trying to run every day. Every couple of weeks I increase my distance. This week I'm at 10 miles every day. So my long run at the end of the week is probably going to be 15 or 18 miles.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@Jay-sd9ye That would be way too heavy a load for me! Very impressive!

[@Jay-sd9ye]

@@its_Matt_B_it’s difficult. And I’m trying to keep my heavy weight training 4 times a week too. 😅

[@deshkanagrikhoon]

I only run 10k and Half Marathon for which imo 16-17 km is more than enough for a long run. I have not noticed any additional benefits to run longer than 16-17 km during a long run when training for a 10k & HM.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@deshkanagrikhoon I’m with you. I think you’re running enough! 💪🏽

[@i.p2088]

How long is a long run? I noticed that I do 4 x Tempo runs which are quite long (12K) then once a week a VO2 max run with Z5 for about 24-30 minutes in Z5 and a few easy runs (Z3).. Never Z2 as it's like running backwards.. I used to do once a week a long run of 2 hours but with the summer heat (like Florida) I have to limit my runs to max 90 minutes.. 😂

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@i.p2088 you’re really putting in the hard work! 24-30 minutes in z5 sounds like torture! 🤣 A long run is whatever you say it is, but obviously it will be your longest run of the week (or whatever time block you choose).

[@i.p2088]

I find staying in Z5 is also shoe dependant. Does not make sense but in a Mizuno wave Rebellion Pro V2 I can keep 30 minutes pure zone 5 but in for example Alphafly V2 which I like more than the hyperactive Mizuno wave Rebellion Pro V2, I can get max 24 minutes in Z5. I think my muscles die before the Hart / lungs.. Age 😂

[@Jay-sd9ye]

I'm loving my vo2max runs. They kick my asss. 💪 1or2 times a week.

[@i.p2088]

Exactly.. I actually have trouble sleeping the night before a planned VO2 max run.. Like a race against faith 😂

[@htownq7224]

🏃

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@htownq7224 🤣 Nice try!