The Ludonarrative Significance of Fire Emblem's Weapon Triangle

[@Excelblem]

📐 it's all connected the triangles are interlocked with everything I'm not crazy ERRATA: In the video I state that the breaker skills in three houses don't require having a particular weapon equipped. This is incorrect, as you do need to have the weapon triangle-appropriate weapon for the skill to work. I blame the fire emblem fandom wiki for misleading me.

[@LoudWaffle]

Understandable, the fandom wiki is written wrong intentionally to mislead people, I believe.

[@xamadfp]

Also the Rank disadvantage section is a bit incorrect. The disadvantage a unit suffers is dependent on the foe's weapon level, not the user's, so an S-level sword vs. a lance foe doesn't always suffer -20 Hit and -2 Atk. If the lance foe only has an E-level in lances, it's only -5 hit, so the total effect ends up being -10 Hit and -4 Atk when factoring in the loss of weapon level bonuses.

[@Excelblem]

⁠@@xamadfpEnemies almost always have maxed weapon levels in Fates, though you are right that it's not always S rank because of the weapon level cap.

[@xamadfp]

@@Excelblem Only on Lunatic, though yeah, a lot of lategame enemies are going to be at at least B even on Normal and Hard since they're going to be using at least silver-tier weapons.

[@NintendoMasterNo1]

common fandom wiki L

[@ivanbluecool]

Excelblem got S support with PowerPoint and now their child fire emblem presentations is the best unit in game

[@OrigamiAhsoka]

They inherited the skills Impeccable Humor and Outstanding Presentation

[@ivanbluecool]

@@OrigamiAhsoka meanwhile speedwing chose discussion chan for S support. His side account Livestream Kun.

[@hajoeijgenraam295]

This threads such a fine line between 'he's going insane' and 'he might be onto something'

[@styxranger436]

It's also relatively worthy to note that Dmitri(the lance guy) never triumphs against Edelgard(the axe lady) or survives to the end outside of the Azure Moon route, where they're brought out of the darkness by the heroism and leadership of Byleth(the sword guy/girl)

[@Excelblem]

it's also a reference to how claude (the bow guy) is a third wheel outsider who has little relevance to the main story in any route except his own because he is outside the weapon triangle

[@styxranger436]

@@Excelblem what a terrible time to not have fates weapon triangle 0/10 no jitaro

[@FDL_1401]

In the final cutscenes of Azure Moon Edelgard uses a knife against Dimitri, and in some games knives are considered swords. Coincidence?

[@styxranger436]

@@FDL_1401 I think NOT

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

Edelgard also has hidden proficiency in Tomes (Dark Magic precisely), and her special classes boost her Mag Growths because she's hiding her links to the Cult.

[@miacasual1263]

I like how Claude has a weapon outside of the traditional weapon triangle - a traditionally two range only weapon at that, and this plays into his arc in many of the routes in 3H because he often peaces out never to be seen again.

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

Claude is kind of a third wheel in FE3H. He feels very tangental to the main plot. I love Edelgard for using an axe.

[@namelessfaerie1302]

This is why I love Swordmasters, they don't give a fuck and single-mindedly hone their ability with the one weapon they use until they get a 100% to-hit against lances

[@thekiss2083]

While you were building a well-balanced army, I studied the blade....

[@hammylove821]

Dual Katana go brrrr

[@juanjvelazquez2595]

The weapon triangle probably is the main reason bandits wield axes but it also is because out of the 3 weapons axes are the more brutish and barbaric weapons. If you imagine a bandit killing civilians to steal their food if the bandit is doing so with an axe it would seem more brutal and horrific than if he did so with a sword or a lance. Also axes are presented as weapons that strong men can swing around with less skill than a sword or lance so it would fit more an untrained man that is desperate for money or food.

[@Excelblem]

Definitely a valid point! The dynamics I talk existed even before the weapon triangle existed (since the weapon triangle did not exist for FE1-3), and even back then bandits have always tended to use axes and soldiers used lances. Axes can definitely be interpreted as more of an improvised weapon and thus would be easier for bandits to acquire. It might be that the weapon triangle was inspired by these dynamics.

[@betgadj1409]

I'd like to point out that axes are the cheapest weapon type in several of the games as well.

[@Zorothegallade-gg7zg]

That and bandits have the "special ability" of destroying villages. An axe would be the perfect tool to break down palisades and destroy timber houses if the villagers weren't warned in time to prepare some defenses.

[@xacmashe3852]

A lot of bandits were probably woodcutters for their homes or villages before resorting to banditry, and likely just used their woodcutting axes as weapons.

[@andrewlesniak8018]

I think a point that you missed with the Empire being armed primarily with lances and the hero being armed with swords is that this is a point about how the hero needs to recruit allies to their side in order to defeat the Empire. They can't do it alone, the Empire has the advantage over them. But by winning over allies to their side, this weakness is overcome.

[@NieOrginalny]

I like how you can somewhat rationalize it irl, Lances beat swords thanks to the reach advantage, but their unbladed shafts are vulnerable to getting hooked and caught by an axe, then it loops back with axes not being able to do the trick against swords. I mean, realistically you're not pulling those kinds of fancy maneouvres against a charging cavalier, but it's the thought that counts.

[@SPZ-gv2on]

that's also reflected in gameplay though, with calvary and wyverns being more important than things like fighting skill and weapon choice lol

[@marcoasturias8520]

Oddly enough, axes are the ones getting hooked, while glaives easily maneuver big axe blades

[@lsrrr3857]

not really, irl lance’s reach beats everything

[@tezereth]

The best counter to lances is usually using a shield

[@ultimaterecoil1136]

@@lsrrr3857if we’re gonna make that point it’d be bow beats everything lance beats everything but bow and sword is neutral vs most things since swords are garbage but can do a little bit of everything.

[@LunarBoo]

Breaker skills are dependant on equipped weapon in Three Houses, actually. Axebreaker only works with Swords, for example.

[@Excelblem]

oops this is what I get for sourcing the crappy fandom wiki for information

[@LunarBoo]

To be fair, Three Houses is the only game this applies to, Fateswakening had them be weapon unspecific

[@lpfan4491]

@@Excelblem Why even use it? It is rarely more correct or complete than the org-wiki.

[@Excelblem]

it was the first search result and I didn't think it would straight up be missing information

[@Rainbro359]

Missing information more like misinformation 😢

[@Tudsamfa]

Never thought about it, but when I saw the thumbnail I knew exactly what was meant. "Of course the empire can't just stamp out the bandits despite their might, they are lance users!"

[@Diamond_Aura]

Huh, I had noticed the “bandits to empire to cult” pipeline before but hadn’t realized that the common weapon types also mirrored the weapon triangle. That’s a pretty cool observation! Nicely put together video

[@A_Person_64]

Funny enough, there's a romhack that goes in a reverse order of things (Order of the Crimson Arm) you wind up fighting a kingdom's cult -> kingdom proper -> barbarian invasion. It'd be like you fought Gharnef -> Hardin -> Gazzak in the Archanea games

[@nerothewateruser8030]

​@@A_Person_64huh, of all places to find someone else who knows about OotCA, I didn't think an Excelblem Powerpoint would be one ;:0

[@A_Person_64]

@@nerothewateruser8030 ROMhacking scene was scarce pre COVID so when a fully custom hack was complete, it was talked about for a while. OOTCA is vanilla enough in gameplay and tone (2000s era FE) to feel like an official entry while still doing interesting things like a playable tactician, being an entirely human affair (with the aforementioned reversed enemy army order) and the sense of scale due to your team being a vanguard force amongst an army of various commanders. It also does something pretty cool in that a lot of scenes has side characters participate in the main plot directly like Rorick telling you about Jormund. DLATMOL was created by a friend of OOTCA's creator and it feels like a fully realized version of what OOTCA was trying to accomplish (OOTCA was never fully finished so support conversations were never implemented off of the pastebin and the story in the lategame slowly becomes text from FE7). The only difference I'd say is that OOTCA has better villains while DLATMOL has a better cast (due to having more supports, but especially because of the thing of side characters talking in main plot directly). I put them right up there with Shackled Power tbh.

[@SharurFoF]

It's hard to see how bandits wielding axes is rooted in ludonarrative considerations with the weapon triangle when FE1 didn't have a weapon triangle, though. Maybe the cause and effect works the other direction - bandits wielded axes, so when they introduced the weapon triangle, it made sense to have swords beat axes.

[@lpfan4491]

I honestly like how in FE6, they end up talking about gameplay mechanics and lore in the supports due to them not trying to be too ham about character personalities yet and several of these things having been rather new by that point. It makes it feel less like we experience the world through a videogame and more like the videogame IS the world. There is a support about the physics of the weapon triangle, a few supports about Lance and Lot playing a board game based on Fire Emblem to hone their tactician skills(Yes, really). There is even a support chain between Dayan and Yoder where they speak about their religious common grounds despite belonging to diffrent faiths(which is actually surprisingly progressive due to the achknowledgement of the concept of religious freedom) and they end up talking about character affinities that everyone is meant to have.(Though er...it's actually kinda awkward since they are in a game where like half the cast does not have an affinity. Giving enemies affinities did not become a proper thing until FE8)

[@melly5741]

Ryoma’s son is a deliberately spear fighter to have weapon triangle over his dad, right?

[@BonkenhiG]

another cutscene example is when Athos tries to whack Nergal with Forblaze (weapon triangle disadvantage vs Ereshkigal) and weirdly does less damage than the number displayed...

[@thekiss2083]

Fire Emblem Fates illustrates that swords beat hand-to-hand combat when Xander, who is armed with a sword, defeats Elise, who is armed with her fists, in a single hit

[@iantaakalla8180]

Narratively, however, when Elise dies, she cripples Xander because she is his sister, and has no more fight in him. While this means he is emotionally defeated, this still fits the “outside the general weapon triangle” nature of magic users.

[@hansgretl1787]

Another interesting point you only slightly touched on is how the weapons can portray personalities as well. The sword is seen as elegant as well as heroic, so it fits our pluvky hero. The axe is strong but inaccurate, making it fit perfectly for some stupid early game brigands that are all brawn and no brain. The lance is long and pointy, having the longest reach and an advantage in spacing. This fits an empire that takes over the continent, the long reach representing how far their occupation goes. Magic hits on a different defensive stat and goes uncountered by most physical weapons, especially the sword. Perfectly fitting for the weird cult that feels almost out of place in the setting.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

That also applies to the Lords. Hector has Axes, because he's rude, and doesn't care about courtroom manners. He acts brashly, which leads to detours in his route. Ephraim has Lances because he never picks fight he can't win. Micaiah is mysterious, and she ends up helping the Cult and opposing the Sword wielding Hero. Robin has Sword as a second Hero, but also Tomes, which links them to Grima, and also reflects their nature as a Tactician.

[@shanemiller1182]

⁠@@shytendeakatamanoir9740Hector also gets swords when he promotes, showing a new desire to act as a proper leader and royal. Ephraim, Erika, and Eliwood all get horses when they promote, showing their willingness to not only lead on the battlefield, but to be active on the frontlines as well. Lyn gets a bow when she promotes to display her Secaen roots (deep, I know). And Roy gets nothing because he is bland af.

[@bugjams]

Sort of rehashing what you said near the end, but on a meta-narrative level the weapon triangle is symbolic of each side's ideology and role. An axe represents the common man - it's often not even a weapon, but a tool. Not only does it make sense for bandits to have axes to make them into bowling pins for the hero, but because... well, they're often just common people. Who happen to be doing illegal things. The sword represents heroism and idealism - things that are persuasive to the common person. Thus, the sword has sway over the axe. The lance doesn't just represent an empire, but emperical rule as a whole. As plucky and lovable as a random hero might be, they alone could never defeat an entire empire (like, in reality. In fire emblem that's actually surprisingly feasible). And lastly, axe beating lance could be a clever metaphor for how the people ultimately determine who rules an empire (at least, in medieval times... roll with it ok?). If the people want to, they can ultimately unite and overthrow the ruling class - the common man's tool becoming a symbol of rebellion.

[@agiruda8380]

Why didn’t Greil use a lance when fighting the Black Knight? Is he stupid??

[@namelessfaerie1302]

His sword arm had 0 durability

[@victorvaquer94]

Yes

[@XellosNi]

Griel, Years Ago: "I deserve to die for **AGED SPOILERS** Griel, At That Moment: "Damn it, I didn't mean LIKE THIS."

[@commanderodinstark3416]

babe wake up excel just used another word i don’t know

[@elivcdxv1852]

which one

[@iamthehobo]

​@@elivcdxv1852triangle

[@furiouscorgi6614]

​@@elivcdxv1852presumably ludonarrative

[@chackbro1]

I can add to this with how FEH uses these in their stories Throughout Book 1, we're (Alfonse (red)) obviously stronger than Veronica (green) but we can never really catch up to her, just clean up her messes Book 2's protagonist is blue and she's defeated by the antagonist (green) and we (red) defeat the antagonist in the end Book 3's antagonist is green but she wins until we (red) overcome their gimmick Book 4's protagonist is blue and she's constantly haunted by the antagonist (green). We (red) defeat her when we realize we're stronger than her and her smoke and mirrors Book 5's characters are strong against the antagonist and have the sacred weapon to defeat her, but it takes the whole book for her twist arc or whatever Book 6 is the first book with a non-green antagonist. They're red and weak against Sharena. This is the time where Sharena gets a main role in these ending cutscenes iirc I stopped playing at book 7 when the goddess lady asked to have a baby with me, so... Not sure if this means anything to anybody but thought it was worth pointing out

[@chackbro1]

I was gonna make a joke about rich people having triangle advantage against poor people in the game's multiplayer modes but felt the comment was long enough

[@kayladelossantos8493]

From what I remember of book 7, the antagonist is colourless and not green like previous antagonists, she is not only outside of the weapon triangle, but outside of the flow of time and can control it. She was also created as a weapon by the true mastermind to destroy the world because he's evil and hates mortals (it literally doesn't matter though because he dies in a single scene and you don't even get to fight him). Also in a plot twist, thanks to weird time shenanigans the protagonist of the book (who is green) is just the past version of the antagonist (and is also the future version of a side character who is red), so when we defeat the antagonist we are in a way continuing the red beats green pattern, since the antagonist is in a sense all the colours of the weapon triangle (if you count the brave version since it's blue). Book 7 was weird

[@shanemiller1182]

@@kayladelossantos8493ok but why does she want to have a baby with you?

[@kayladelossantos8493]

@@shanemiller1182 she learned about baby eugenics and the baby hyperbolic time chamber from Corrin and Robin and wanted to test it out. Ok the real answer is that the mastermind tells her to go do it because the god realm needs more gods I guess. His real motivation is that he wants to use the child that’s created to become the activation for the evil curse, which kickstarts the creation of the antagonist

[@paperluigi6132]

@@kayladelossantos8493same scene where Seidr asks to make a baby also immediately has her clarifying that gods do not need to procreate the mortal way to have a child. Though that didn’t stop fan-artists lol.

[@ckenshin3841]

3 Houses Crimson Flowers plot structure does a neat reversal with the opposing "Empire" group being Faergus and the "Cult" group actually being the Church of Seiros.

[@Excelblem]

🤔

[@ckenshin3841]

@@Excelblem Also including Edelgard, Caspar, Petra, and Ferdinand who all have axe proficiencies, the Black Eagles have the most units with an axe proficiency out of the other houses with a total of four, giving off the appearance that the Black Eagles group are more akin to the axe using bandits group. Edelgard's war campaign is also essentially a blitz that folds the Kingdom of Faergus due to its speed. Finally, the villain of the Crimson Flower group, Rhea, comes equipped with a sword and a shield harkening back to the ideal image of the main lord in past Fire Emblem games.

[@XellosNi]

@@ckenshin3841 yfw Rhea did "Evil Marth" before Engage did. Kind of. On both accounts.

[@VuNguyen-fv5jl]

This video: excelblem extending his skills to powerpoint to get a consulting job

[@robertobrosful]

Another Weapon Triangle/History interaction happens along Thracia 776. Notice how your first units are mostly Axe Users, showing how the Leif's Army has the strength but not the skills or organization necesary to take on the empire. Leif and Eyvel are the only Sword units you have, both being royalty, and showing how the Sword can be both the noobie easy to use weapon, and the weapon used by veterans. And Finn is the only Lance User you get for a while, being a Soldier (hell, the perfect, most honor bound soldier ever) for the now deceases Quan. The only way to actually get Lances are by stealing them from enemies that are part of the empire, and the best units that can steal are the Axe Users (Showing how the strength and will of Leif's army is enough to win against the organized Empire) and the weapon you are given are almost always Swords (showing how step by step, Leif's Army is given honor and trust by others). Tldr; Thracia 776 is just really cool.

[@ivanbluecool]

I love weapon triangle. I honestly wish we get more types and early units and magic weapons Wand for a sword. Cane for a spear an giant staff for axe to have a 1 range magic based sword lance and axe type for a magic unit type like trickster in awakening or how Anna is magic based in engage. Lissa wise wish she got that axe like in fates dlc. It does so much for the crew and would make it easier to tank or dodge hits to gain exp. Maribelle wise lance instead as healers should have something to defend themselves with. Fates fixed that with Felicia and Jakob being EVOS to start but elise and sakura it makes sense they are still young and learning. Spell wise I love the spell advantage and disadvantages as well. The Mutiple type lines are cool to play with. It makes building your units and their kits more fun

[@FailLincs]

This is what i strive to be in my presentations

[@nightshadetq2453]

this is actually such a clever analysis pptblem forever

[@AzumarillConGafasBv]

Finally, a real Excel of Fire Emblem

[@VioletLunaChan]

Pretty good video, the only thing that kinda annoys me is the Black Knight-Greil Bit. Greil didn't use an Axe out of arrogance, but because he quite literally couldn't wield swords anymore due to cutting his hand.

[@paperluigi6132]

And before anyone brings up the Prologue and opening cutscene, I’m pretty sure you don’t need that much strength to wield a training sword that’s light AF.

[@lpfan4491]

He cannot use swords anywhere near his prior full power, but he should still be able to wield it.

[@ryangallagher9723]

Greil was still overconfident and arrogant, though, and the axe was a good way of communicating that non-verbally. "Your voice...I remember you. Think you can defeat me, the man who taught you how to fight? What a fool. Come on, boy! Come try me!" -Greil, moments before getting his shit kicked in

[@jokx4409]

@@ryangallagher9723 It's not the main factor though. And while it is overconfidence, in a situation of life and death like that, no one would do anything less than go all out, especially Greil who's seen his fair share of battles. So no, it didn't have anything to do with the outcome. It's the slashed hand.

[@marcoasturias8520]

A double-headed axe like Greil's would be extremely hard to use, especially with one hand. Swords tend to be much better balanced, so even similarly heavy axes and swords, swords would be easier to use.

[@juicyjuustar121]

I just wanna say, I absolutely adore these powerpoint videos. I hope you do more, theyre super fun

[@halt1931]

I now want to see a fire emblem game where you begin the game fighting against a cult, then encounter an empire who was funding the cult all along, then in the endgame you discover that the whole thing was orchestrated by a group of ragtag bandits with absurdly high stats

[@princestarfy4098]

A 17 minute video about rock paper scissors? Pokémon KZbinr’s would be proud.

[@Siinory]

I've never seen the triangle in that way, especially narratively! Superb PowerPoint!

[@dominicjannazo7144]

I think on a thematic level the weapons are simple. Swords are refined, elegant. They are used by trained soldiers and nobles. Spears are simple. Generic soldiers and villagers use spears. Axes are brute force. Bandits, with brute force and no regard for proper norms, run rampant, easily besting villagers and ruling thr countryside, requiring the lords and trained knights to step in and defend their people. You kinda get to that a little bit

[@MugenCannon97]

"And the Loptyr cult is, well, the cult." Thanks I never would've known.

[@a.r.1560]

I absolutely adore fates' weapon triangle system to this day. It is just so simple and so good

[@addambarcelos]

It's also pretty cool to think on the narrative of weapons when it comes to other classes. Awesome video

[@arclight3213]

I discussed the thesis of this video with a friend, and we agree that this ludonarrative tie between weapon type and a character or organization's narrative role extends to much more than fire emblem. Obviously, fire emblem having medieval style combat means it tends to draw from historical fiction and reality in equal measure. But this remains true of much modern fiction as well. Star wars, for example, has the lightsaber as the primary tool of the good guy, while the dark side kf the force, generally repped as lightning, is the tool of the bad guy. The same goes for other weapons too: the revolver is the tool of the lone wanderer or prideful gunslinger (revolver ocelot, for example). The machine or gatling gun is the tool of the "tough guy". The switchblade is the tool of the dexterous assassin. The list goes on and on. It's really cool how, throughout human history, the tool and the man are tied inextricably together.

[@killeredge1394]

This was a really awesome and well put video! honestly not sure it is your thing. But hearing you talk and nerd about fire emblem is awesome almost like a history! Would love hear you talk more about fire emblem in a history or lore type of way!

[@Exisist5151]

I really like the echoes experience. It’s a bit homogenized and units are roughly the same as other units due to class bases, but it kinda has a different sort of hierarchy than the weapon triangle. Mages Beat Armors Armors beat Dreads Dreads beat mages And then cavs, pegs, and bow knights exist outside of this as filler units.

[@victorvaquer94]

And then there's Mathilda, who just deletes everything

[@RSimpkinuk57]

And again, mages beat armors, barons (promoted armors) withstand bows, promoted bows outrange mages. EDIT: So Shadow Dragon has weapon triangle when FE1, which it is the remake of, did not. But Shadow Dragon also has weapon ranks and multiple inventory slots: did it inherit those from FE1? While FE2, which Echoes is the remake of, had none of those. Hence adding weapon triangle to Echoes would be little more than cosmetic because Echoes has no weapon ranks to play off of, units class-locked to a single weapon family (so no switching between sword and lance according to opponent), and only one inventory slot per character (for which special weapon, shield, magic ring and healing food all compete). With just over thirty playable characters further divided into two squads there is less need to differentiate units, and combat arts tied to specific weapons do that (eg Saber with steel sword and Kamui with iron sword learn different arts). (Without DLC, special weapons are in limited supply, barely enough to go round until the second half of the game, and while we can give the smith money to evolve the iron sword into another steel, for example, the smith will not be reached until a third of the way into the game. And if Kamui's iron sword were turned into steel, then he would have to start learning steel sword arts from scratch, like it was a weapon rank.) I suppose if they'd wanted to, they could have half-done weapon triangle in Echoes (the advantage half) through the "effective" mechanic. Which does not apply to basic weapons, only to special ones in the inventory slot (iron, steel, etc). That depends on units being assigned attributes such as mounted, flyer or terror. Come to think of it, two new attributes would be sufficient: "brigand" (axe-armed) and "swordfighter". Just imagine if iron, steel and silver lances were all anti-Alm effective! (But not ridersbanes, and maybe not javelins.) Whoa! That would be over-powered.

[@SwissCheeseMann]

I'd go more broad with the categories: Swords - wildcard. Usually theives, mercenaries, and the lord who drives the story. Typically get by through being just THAT good, but lacking the external benefits lances have. They're unpredictable and a spanner in the works but need help to enact real change. Lance - authority. Almost every knight class has a lance, and represents the might of their nation with perks that'd be difficult to upkeep without the nation's resources: horses, pegasi, heavy armor, etc. Axe: simple, unskilled power. As axes are tools as well as weapons, it's the weapon common folk know and have available. Bandits and fighters usually come from or retire to tough labor like farming or woodwork that'd keep them physically fit. It's that strength and numbers that lets commoners rise to fight an unjust power (your axe users) or overthrow guards to plunge a nation into chaos (enemy axe users). In both cases, their lack of refinement means the wildcards' tactics are more effective against them. As an example: Ogma, the best and most skilled of the merc group he commands, has a sword to show his skill. Meanwhile, axe users Barst, Bord, and Cord provide the simple muscle Ogma would lack if going solo.

[@SwissCheeseMann]

Another example: the 3 houses lords. Byleth is an obvious wildcard with how much hinges on their decisions. Dimitri comes from the Holy Kingdom with its leadership divinely ordained, a lance is perfect. Edelgard wants to use her unnatural strength to destroy the largest authority in Fodlan, an axe is perfect for her. Claude, ever the schemer with unclear motives, excuses himself from the weapon triangle altogether. Although when pressed, he is a wildcard (sword boom) with a disregard for traditional power structure (lance bane) who is open to uprooting a corrupt system when the war gives him an opportunity (axe hidden talent)

[@kuromallow]

honestly this format for video essays is much easier to consume than others who are more eccentric with editing. i like it!

[@kayladecant7332]

One of your best essays in ages, congrats

[@protol5683]

I love when you do more analytical videos like this

[@foggy8298]

Greil wasn’t “showing his folley” he swore off of using his sword hand and crippled it lmao

[@PinClockFuntime]

This went way harder than I expected to, very thoughtful video that adds appreciation to Fire Emblem

[@patroka]

Huh. I wasn’t expecting there to be much to read into, but you have me largely convinced, and also just had some good observations on things. Well done!

[@davialmeida4442]

It could be that Lances being weak to axes symbolizes the evil opposing empire is doesn't bother to stop the bandits, which shows how evil they are

[@renanmarcilio4677]

PowerPointblem at it again with another banger!

[@Zorothegallade-gg7zg]

I always thought about it as each weapon being better able to take advantage of openings when facing the one you have advantage over. If your opponent has a lance and overextends, you can use the heft of an axe to gain leverage over their weapon. If your opponent misses an axe swing, you are fast enough with a sword to close the distance and get a strike in before they can recover. If your opponent lowers their guard with a sword, you have enough reach advantage with a spear to poke at their exposed points without retaliation.

[@dominion7363]

I always thought about this, glad someone finally made a video

[@jierdareisa4313]

I love ALL Excelblem videos!!!! ❤

[@radiantherooftellius1138]

I love this video, weapon triangle is suxh a cool mechanic, i like how it was done in fates and engage, engage break mechanic was so fun, thqnk you powerpointblem

[@AshaiTides]

Really great video!

[@EthanKironus8067]

9:50 - Incidentally, who else agrees that "Cataclysm" (that cutscene referenced at this point) is the best cutscene in Awakening, and one of the best in the franchise? It's simple, cleanly done, shows a fight that's textured but not too fancy, and is just the right length.

[@SirVyre]

The Radiant Dawn Execution cutscene starts with bows, showing that the Greil Mercenaries transcend the weapon triangle. The first shot is done by Shinon, who is a character that asserts his own superiority, time and time again, and within Radiant Dawn his stat spread surely shows it. This is exemplified by this shot also being the first action of the scene, done from the cover of a tree, way outside of the purview of standard combat. Within the rest of the cutscene, Ike is the only member shown to take on lance users with his sword in direct combat, easily besting multiple soldiers with each swing. His first swing could be said to have taken advantage of the surprise of them saving Lucia, but it still felled three men. The theme, again, is that the Greil's and Ike especially, are above regular soldiers. Ike also exhibits traits atypical for a Fire Emblem main protagonist. Generally, FE protagonists are svelte swordsmen, who have an air of androgynous beauty to them. Grace and elegance are their domain, and it is not uncommon for them to be women. Ike is muscle bound, his frame so large that when he stands back to back with Gatrie the armor knight, Ike still looks larger. You may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like.

[@ProudlyIdiotic]

The Bandits - Empire - Cult also applies to a lot of other JRPGs, maybe not exactly, but close enough thematically

[@paperluigi6132]

Been going through my third playthrough of Three Hopes, and I think there’s some narrative with Shez vs Jeralt’s Mercenaries. Alois, the last member to join the company, uses an axe, and given its weakness to swords, he arguably poses the least threat of the three of them. Even in the bad ending, when you fight him for the last time, he’s little more than a footnote compared to the other generals. Jeralt, being the leader of Shez’s main rival, uses a Lance, which is effective against swords, showing how initially powerless Shez is against the greatest mercenary in all of Fódlan. In the bad ending cutscene where you kill him, Shez is in disbelief that he actually defeated the Blade Breaker. And finally, Byleth, Shez’s rival. They use a sword, which is the perfect weapon for Shez’s rival since they’re on theoretical equal footing, but like with Ike vs BK, the initial difference in power is far too great and Shez is easily defeated in their first encounter. On the second encounter, Shez having grown stronger, is able to wear down Byleth, but they merely grow tired and then retreat. On the third encounter, just when Shez thinks they’re about to finally win, Byleth (unintentionally and unwillingly thanks to Sothis) awakens THEIR true power, which is enough to overpower Shez and cause them to retreat. On the fourth encounter, the bad ending is achieved by defeating Byleth during the map, which depending on what happens, might leave you with no choice but to do so, locking you into that route. In that scenario, Byleth loses Jeralt and Shez’s army loses a valuable commander. Thus, on the second to last map, the final encounter appears, where Sothis, using Byleth’s body as a vessel, attempts to get revenge, but Shez manages to counter Divine Pulse and finally defeat Byleth. But Shez then remarks on how the victory feels hollow, and that if there was some way to avoid all that, tipping the player off on how to get the true ending. In THAT scenario, by playing smartly on the fourth map, you avoid defeating Byleth entirely and thus end up recruiting them instead, which has the narrative subtlety of Shez accepting that they’ll probably never defeat Byleth, while acknowledging just how valuable of an ally they are.

[@Rhadgar]

The association of lances and armor knights and cavaliers that exists in a lot of games also frames the power of the Empire by make it feel like a real challenge to hurt them or evade them (also makes the Hero feel more special for the common choice to give them a weapon effective against both).

[@Augestein]

Yeah, there's another one that you can kind of see that wasn't actually brought up as well. Fire Emblem Fates. Corrin has 2 different promotion paths in Fates, and they gave Corrin's Nohrian promotion Tomes and Corrin's Hoshidan Staves both use magic as a secondary, but one is for attacking and being more aggressive, and the other is more defensive and supportive. Implying that Corrin is being an aggressor versus a defender.

[@Lotus_Juice]

I love these PowerPoint videos

[@LP-zn8sc]

An interesting instance of this is Anri's way in fe3. Dragons are extremely powerful but also outside the triangle. So in order to make the journey your units have to outpower the dragons without any advantages. I know fe3 has no triangle technically but its kinda neat.

[@caseyjarmes]

My favorite example of this is that Shiro from Fates has a chip on his shoulder and wants to be better than his father. Shiro is a spear fighter and his father is a swordmaster.

[@dylansturdivant5404]

Fe6 nails the feel of being disadvantaged by having the strong army force be mostly wyverns, who are not only weilding lances but have superior bulk and movement to most of Roy's squad.

[@BenjiSketch]

YES! More Perun style power point videos!

[@birdofclay9581]

Bandits also prioritise easy targets that would only be defended by a small peasant militia or a handful basic soldiers at most. Both of which use lances.

[@notebookofmath]

My first two FE games were 3 Houses and Echoes. Now playing through PoR and RD, I really struggled to remember the weapon triangle. Then I watched this video. Swords beat axes because your lord beats brigands in the early game. Lances beat swords because you are too weak to defeat a formal army without recruiting more people. Thank you Excelblem, I finally can remember the weapon triangle thanks to this video. (This is 100% unironic)

[@jacewarbeck9684]

The axes being the weapon of the bandits is because if you were an outlaw the most easily accessible weapon to you is going to obviously be a tool - an axe, that is used for cutting trees, repurposed as an actual weapon; not unlike how actual tools were used in combat by those who didn't have access to much better. The Imperial force is an actual armed entity, using spears as is typical of a medieval army, it is the 'meta' choice, it is proven that spears are naturally powerful for a low cost and therefore are used as the baseline of these armies. Swords are the weapons used by people who typically have the money to afford them, they're not bought by just anyone, you're middle class at the very worst, either a professional soldier (Mercenary) or a Noble (Lord) who can pay to own such a pricey piece of equipment that is easy to use and effective against the aforementioned ruffians who may accost you.

[@moonflower2565]

also i think a lot of the villager characters wielding lances shows how they need protection from the bandits by the main lord, but the people have the power over their leader.

[@gg_sam7847]

And also axes would just be a common tool for those times, with wood cutting being important careers, so they would be cheap and readily available, much like Bandits. Lance's are like swords but stronger and with longer reach, expensive, expansive and tactical, much like an Empire. Swords historically have been more self defence weapons rather than weapons of war (think of a sword like a handgun and a lance like a rifle) while also being symbols of status, which is another thing to strengthen your points in this video

[@mariocruno3772]

Worth adding even within the weapon triangle the different weapons are Not the Same, Axes have more might than lance, and those are the weapons that bandits who prioratize damage use

[@BetterThanDoomWithAZ]

I learned a lot, and yet I still have never learned why this series uses the term lances instead of spears.

[@BBHood217]

Reavers exist to trip up inventory feelers.

[@level-up3662]

the power point videos are sweet keep up the good work

[@gameboyn64]

I love how in fire emblem, the weapon triangle is exemplified by the unit classes. Lance unit like cavs and armor knights have high defense so they don't mind trading hits with fast but frail sword units like myrmidons and mercenaries. Meanwhile lance units don't like trading hits with axe units like fighters and brigands because their defense gets overwhelmed by the power of axe units and axe units have enough health to absorb the hit. Meanwhile axe units don't like fighting sword units because fast sword units are hard to hit and can rack up damage quickly with double attacks as axe units typically have lower defenses.

[@A_Person_64]

Even before playing the kaga sagas where he dropped the triangle effects and instead made each weapon type do different things (along with them not sharing subweapon effects), I never really felt like the mechanic mattered once you promoted/got past the earlygame. Reaver weapons, Gem weapons and engage's break system are cool though.

[@projectmessiah]

Great study material for Fire Emblem university

[@zb3268]

FE Echoes is also interesting in the ways it still uses the narrative weapons of choice. Alm is mostly dealing with physical based empire enemies but has significant plot moments around mages in combat, with an entire recruitment of a much needed mage locked behind a side objective that is somewhat hard to accomplish. On the other route, Celica mostly deals with the underground cult but struggles with some specialized physical enemies who are often of the bandit variety and more or less just make it difficult to get the best range advantages out of your party. I honestly thought you were joking about the ludonarrative bit but I am glad you stuck to your point because a lot of “communication” the games do are not directly told to you outside of the mechanics breakdown. Until more recent games unit identity itself was often paired along specific weapons like the early axe users being Brigand adjacent and mirroring the play style.

[@RSimpkinuk57]

Yes Alm starts as the "lord with the sword" archetype, but on (story-unlocked) promotion he gets a second weapon, bow, with which to counter the cultists. Maybe it would be a bit of a stretch, though, to say that Celica being magic-and-sword from the beginning symbolises her ambiguous feelings as a cult sympathiser.

[@lefthandedscout9923]

2:25 err, no, axe breaker only works if you hold a sword in 3 houses, for example. The statement that it only gives bonuses based on what you're up against is just flat false

[@shadexvii3975]

Another FE Three houses one is Jeralt. His nickname is blade breaker, suggesting his skills with an axe are so good, weapon triangle disadvantage means nothing to him. Hence why he has to be killed by Kronya with a dagger sneak attack. It’s weird Athame is a sword and not a dagger like in FEH, given this narrative, but oh well. Another game that follows the layout for the story you mentioned is shadows of Valentia and Gaiden. Now, the two separate parts of that game do muddle things a bit, but generally for the first half of the map both sides face bandits, then move to fighting some empire troops/cultists, then more empire troops/cultists, with some bandits thrown in on Celica’s side to make up for the general lack of them in early game. Then late game it’s all empire and cultists until the empire falls and all that remains is the cult.

[@MxHavmir]

9:00 It wasn't Greil's folly. In Radiant Dawn, it's revealed that Greil's sword arm got injured during combat making them only able to use axes.

[@TheEcoolarg]

I really wish for a Fire Emblem without Avatar character in which the main lord uses an Axe, but you made good points on why that will probably wont happend

[@Quarataia]

On the topic of ludonarrative resonance. Will you do a video on skills and how they affect and define a character? Although it is a better realized thing in the Kaga games.

[@zgiffish]

LUDONARRATIVE FIRE EMBLEM ANALYSIS‼️‼️‼️ WHAT’S A COMPREHENSIBLE STORY 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@addaku]

This video made me realize there are no axe users in FE:echoes

[@theking5116]

The one time i've seen someone use the word "ludonarrative" properly. Yes i've seen it used more than once.

[@jagbarakor1303]

Instead of weapon triangle, each weapon should be based on stats. Axe heavy and hard to swing, so a unit needs high strengh + high skill to carry Axe. Sword is basic and doesn't need high status to carry yet doesn't make great damage. Lance is between Sword and Axe. Bow is more support, low damage.

[@noiseisgold3n42]

No ludonarrative spoiler warnings? Absolutely diabolical.

[@teono6057]

now we need allies to be assigned bows because we can't fight(back) against each other due to our ranges

[@esrohm6460]

now when we talk about this i think you should at least mention how the weapons also all are representative of a way of fighting. lances are highly accurate "poking" tools, while axes are "unga bunga" first swing with full force then aim stile, with swords being in the middle. and when we go with the connection to story is that pretty much how you would expect it. the axe wielder are savages, while the lance wielders are empires, whereas the main group uses swords as the forces that neither wants to cause harm but also cannot oblige with the whims of the empire.

[@jacewarbeck9684]

11:23 Actually you can distill pretty much any FE protagonist into two of three archtypes: Wields Sword, Blue Hair, Noble. Every FE protagonist will have *AT LEAST* two of these things. Marth: Blue Hair, Sword, Noble Roy: No Blue Hair, Sword, Noble Lyn: No Blue Hair, Sword, Noble Hector: Blue Hair, No Sword, Noble Eliwood: No Blue Hair, Sword, Noble Ephraim: Blue Hair, No Sword, Noble Eirika: Blue Hair, Sword, Noble Ike: Blue Hair, Sword, Not a Noble You get the idea

[@nelisezpasce]

FE lets me live the power fantasy of taking down the Rotschilds

[@fubu72]

What you're trying to tell me is all this time all Grima had to do to conquer the world is deploy more lance wielding soldiers?

[@DanisThoughts]

positive comment for engagement cause I liked the video

[@xRHEGx]

I see 'ludonarrative' in video title, I click, I is a simple man.

[@CarbonMalite]

I like the triangle, but it's more like an isosceles triangle because swords consistently come up short (literally and metaphorically).

[@smaza2]

powerpointblem game strong

[@linkdx7079]

Interesting that you didnt mention gaiden/echoes (or at least alm's route) brigand to rigel empire to duma's cult

[@TrepeSerafin]

This is some kind of college course on Fire Emblem. Nice