The Mage of the Vale

[@sirellyn]

I've ALWAYS loved the Valley of the Mage. It feels like a 40+ year old mystery we never got an answer to. Thanks for covering this!

[@chrisragner3882]

“The Dread Pirate Roberts”. The “Mage” is just the title of the current mage that learned and took over for his predecessor. That’s how I played it.

[@davepeller6173]

I like the idea! A title that is passed down from one archmage to the next. In G.I. Joe, Destro is the twentieth (or something) in a line of Destros dating back to the time of Cromwell. Cheesy example, I know. Adventure hook: the "old" mage died last week, and three contenders now want to take his place. Political intrigue ensues. The PCs work for one of those contenders.

[@rickmiller6938]

I like the demiurge but close to keep him as a shadowy background figure. Jaran Krimeah took up the mantle of leadership, though in recent years he has absconded to the Plane of Shadow. I cleared up many of the discrepancies in the Vale of the Mage in Oerth Journal 18. In the next few months, I plan to revisit the area with a 60 page pdf which I plan to make available online. =)

[@johnedgar7956]

Hello Sir Grognard! Another great video, thank you. The mysterious "Valley of the Mage" is indeed so evocative that in the few times I've been able to run a long-term D&D campaign it always causes a sense of dread from my players...I totally agree, "less is more" when it comes to black & white descriptions of the mage and his domain. Thank you for bringing up this topic!

[@thatpatrickguy3446]

Great video! The Mage of the Vale never appeared in any of my Greyhawk games, though I did buy the module to use as a resource since I mined about everything, including third party adventures from Judges Guild and Role Aids/Mayfair and unrelated sources such as the Middle Earth RPG, for ideas for my own campaign adventures. I was kind of underimpressed with the actual module after the bit in the Gold Box, but it still supplied some ideas for me.

[@michaelr00ney]

A fine topic, well-covered. Gary's remarks in the 1980 Gazetteer, 1982 Dragon #67 (Valley Elf), 1983 Gold Box, and 1987 Sea of Death (pp. 62-71) are all consistent: the Mage is a lord of cosmic Neutrality, of quasi-deity stature (he is treated as a peer by the Catlord) who maintains isolation with his Neutral valley elves and gnomes. In 1980, he's an MU18, but by 1983 even that is redacted, and in 1987 we get the enigmatic comment that "the so-called Archimage is actually a Demiurge, and his name is Basiliv" -- as though that is a level title of sorts. The Valley is plain and dreary, with scattered villages but only one unattractive town of 3,000 (mostly human?) inhabitants. He even issues a mea culpa (which may retcon some of the anti-social hints of the 1980-83 material): "in my young and foolish past, I have misused my powers and wrought badness, seeking nothing but seclusion." The Rabe guy I've always ignored. That guy is a very run-of-the-mill evil arch-mage with very humdrum motives and interests (hell, he's not as interesting as the evil guys still in the Great Kingdom! I'd exile him for being boring!). They can't even spell his name consistently between WG12 and Greyhawk Adventures. Certainly there's no explanation for why or how an Evil mage rules Chaotic Neutral elves without coercion. Bah.

[@pentegarn1]

We were just using that map yesterday when my brother came to visit. Synchronicity is high today. lol I always loved Rabe's module. I like the Valley Elves and just the general story (even if it doesn't quite jive with the Gold Box?) But I always dreamed of killing him off and using his Hat of Disguise and taking his place. ;)

[@voidwizard2067]

Agree with the "mundane" association with the module. While I enjoyed collecting any information about the famous Valley of the Mage, I was very meh about the module and never ran any group through it. Jason's backstory and paranoia seemed "mundane" and frankly thought a powerful mage would have a better handle on what the Great Kingdom is or is not up to.

[@EmilianoMarchetti]

I've used the Mage once, when the PCs briefly visited his castle in order to find another person who was staying there, but they never met the mage himself. My version was heavily inspired by Gary's description in the novels.

[@EmilianoMarchetti]

Regarding the title "demiurge", I wonder if Gary took the name directly from the original ancient Greek sources.

[@johnedgar7956]

@@EmilianoMarchetti Good question. I kind of came to the realization much later in life that the druid "circles" (and perhaps the "Heirophant" title as well, but feel free to correct me on that) were inspired by the real-life, really weird society/cult of the Golden Dawn in the U.K. in the 19th century.

[@archibael]

You're right. Gary was nothing if not a student of the occult (or, though likely not a believer himself, at the very least a student of students of the occult :) ). The Rosicrucians were an occult group that advertised for membership in magazines as late as the 80s (and quite likely had much older origins)... so when I noted Gary's reference to "the Rosy Cross" I got the joke.

[@archibael]

Just a couple other items to tidy up the Gord the Rogue references: Gygax makes it clear that Basiliv is one of-- if not THE-- most powerful beings associated with Oerth, though his expertise/powers are allegedly limited to those of the elements and the material plane (which vaguely fits with the definition of "demiurge" you discussed in the video). As Mr. Rooney points out in his comments, Gary does retcon his attitudes to reconcile the friendly lord of Balance with the gold box description. I believe it's Gellor who becomes the new Demiurge and lord of Hy Brazeal, not Gord, though. Moving into Gary's later works... in Epic of AErth, the ruler of Hy Braseal is "Archimage Gelthoth" and as Thoth is god of lore.... I think you can see where that notorious punster Gary was going with that... In Mythus, Gygax gives definitions for all of these terms... archimage, demiurge, etc. "Demiurge", per that work: "This appellation is used to designate an individual who is both a hermeturge and a savant [both of which have their own cryptic definitions later] and have advanced his or her abilities beyond the usual in both areas so as to attain the superhuman (a Power, Quasi-Deity, or Demigod). Prior to moving beyond the ken of humankind, such an individual is called a magus [again, defined later]. All are accorded great status, albeit few of this bent are much interested in that. " Not canonical, certainly, but perhaps of some interest to those who wish to play the Valley of the Mage as Basiliv's playground.

[@sststr]

The Greyhawk gold box set is written in a way that the author is not omniscient and may get things wrong. You can take the material in there as the kinds of things the common folk "know" to be "true" about their world, supplemented here and there by just enough scholarly work to ensure big picture things are correct (capitals, borders, any wars and other important events that are referenced, etc.), but any of a host of details could easily be wrong. And given how shrouded in mystery the Valley of the Mage is, that's one of those areas where the gold box material could be taken to just be wrong in almost all the particulars in tries to reference. The author did his best with what people thought they knew of it, but they were just wrong, just making up stories to suit their fancies.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

That's very true about the Gold Box, an a point that is not said often enough. Not so much about the novels and other later material.

[@cutterjocky4917]

I think the Mage of the Vale is really a title that has been held by several people over thousands of years and the mage is the guardian of some great and terrible evil imprisoned in the vale; maybe something left over from the Battle of Pesh. Now that I think of it, if the Mage is an agent of Balance, what he guards could be a powerful force for Good or Law that would upset the Balance of Oerth.

[@johnedgar7956]

A good approach, right there. Apologies...can someone tell me about the Battle of Pesh? I love Greyhawk, have been playing in it since the 80s, but I guess I missed that one.

[@michaelr00ney]

@@johnedgar7956 It's in the description of the Rod of Seven Parts in the DMG.

[@johnedgar7956]

@@michaelr00ney Thank you!

[@GRWelsh7]

My version is consistent with the EGG source material and ignores the other stuff. In my campaign, the characters only know the rumors per the Folio/1983 box. It's a mysterious and forbidden place. I had the idea to expand upon the demiurge role, and what that means exactly... My idea was that Basiliv has become a "workman of the gods" doing something for Balance and tie it in with the role and limitations of gods in relation to Oerth. The only thing I didn't like about EGG's version was how mundane Bardillingham was... That seemed like a missed opportunity.

[@tcschenks]

I bought that book when it came out. My first thought was “Where’s Basiliv?” Then when I saw the Drow girlfriend wearing sunglasses I ignored the book at that point. I wasn’t happy with most of the second edition Greyhawk material.

[@manders7868]

Seems to me like the truth Valley of the Mage is best left as a sort of mystery-box to be established as needed for each campaign. Never really needed to be set in canon.

[@elliotvernon7971]

I remember being very disappointed with the Vale of the Mage module. It just seemed like a massive comedown from the mystery and hints in the goldbox.

[@satturnine7320]

I was thinking of rolling some Valley Elves not long ago and have them quest for the cup and talisman of Al’Akbar I took a look at this module and although I found it to be a fair work, it was not what I had in mind for it did not correspond as you pointed out The hook being that some renegade elves managed to return the cup from the Duchy of Geoff and then using it to search for their lost and rightful King since it was believed he was still in possession of the talisman Similar to the Graal quests one could say

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

The Cup and Talisman were last seen in the Bandit Kingdoms, IIRC. Since you bring it up, it'd be a great campaign to send a bunch of Baklunish faithful into the mysterious West to recover it. Could really do some "fish out of water" stuff with it, in terms of culture, religion, etc.

[@satturnine7320]

@@GreyhawkGrognard awesome! Thanks!

[@MarkCMG]

I think it is okay to explain discrepancies based on the source of the fact, like sages from far away are misinformed of population totals, just like maps have to have been drawn by someone in the world and errors can occur. Thanks for the video!

[@johnedgar7956]

Agreed; I too think this is a useful idea. The players who've all read the source material expect a community of "10,000 humans of dubious parentage" only to find that there are fewer than 1,000 people living there. Further, what role would these humans play in a secluded valley populated mostly by secretive, unwelcoming elves? Why would the Mage allow anyone else there at all (humans, gnomes, etc)? It's a weird microcosm all it's own.

[@MarkCMG]

@@johnedgar7956 Could be rumors spread by the Mage to throw people off, perhaps?

[@johnedgar7956]

@@MarkCMG Indeed it could!

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Oooh I love that idea.

[@sfrink1425]

Nice clarification of the available materials, which I feel, honestly, are all a disappointment. The original glossography promised something more sinister and mysterious than what was presented in the adventure module or the Gord books. I was hoping for more (from TSR, not from you, LOL. You're doing a great job). What I WOULD like to see more of in your videos is the cat. Cats are always welcome intruders / guest hosts.

[@tonyporco9524]

Always wondered what the Valley of the Mage was like... Interesting point about the detail cancelling the mystery. Have you done one already for the Scarlet Brotherhood? I'm thinking you have.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Not specifically, but it's definitely a topic worth covering.

[@sfrink1425]

@@GreyhawkGrognard Yes, would love to see an overview on the Scarlet Brotherhood. The book they put out on that, including the details on Hepmonaland, was actually fantastic.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

@@sfrink1425 The folks on the Patreon just got a retrospective on the Scarlet Brotherhood book today. 🙂 It'll post here in 2 weeks.

[@kennetth1389]

While I like the maps and npc's from the module, have never used that version. I kept my mage mysterious and aloof, more in keeping with Tolkien's great mages. Although nowhere as friendly as Gandalf.

[@johnedgar7956]

That is a GREAT approach!

[@OneEyedJack1970]

I thought Gellor became the Demiurge and Gord became the Cat Lord.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

You might well be right. It's been a few years since I read it.

[@bromossunstarranger8706]

Valley of the Mage puzzled me as a young DM so I skipped it. Besides, it being of high-level play. thanks for the overview to include all the other books that have references to try and hash out a more concise story though it still is an elusive storyline.

[@James-qi3tb]

Was there an earlier module than WG12? I feel like there was but can find no reference. I don't mind the WG12 product, I liked that he is essentially a paranoid and actually neutral evil person, but he is still actually doing a pretty good job as a ruler for the valley. He is less cardboard cut out than most fantasy rulers in that regard... he is doing well in the spare time between his paranoia. His population all seem to like him... despite his evil... I kind of like that as a setting and it is a bit unique. And again that the elves are raiders into other lands, but not necessarily psychotic about it... they go out and take things... like raiding Scottish clans stealing cattle where they an from each other. As I said. I quite like it as a setting. In the 4 decades I have been playing my characters have never tried entering he Vale once... I might steer them there soon.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

No, WG12 was the first treatment of the Vale other than the brief and cryptic mention in the Folio, as far as I'm aware.

[@blackstaff798]

Unless Gary was involved or people were part of his Greyhawk campaign, any other published material should be discarded.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

I'm a bit of a purist, but that's a little much even for me. :-)

[@blackstaff798]

​@@GreyhawkGrognard For myself, I'm more interested in the original creator's intentions and any people who were around that time who can give proper insight, than someone entirely new who gives their own interpretation and get's it completely wrong.

[@blackstaff798]

​@@tcschenks Is Jim Ward's book based on things he knew from Gary's campaign or did he make a lot of stuff up without knowing the facts?

[@blackstaff798]

​@@tcschenks I don't know, you would have to ask Jim Ward those questions. But what I can tell with Greyhawk Adventures, it's a collection of previously published material mixed with what looks like stuff Jim Ward wrote. It was also released just after Gary left TSR and his name isn't mentioned in it at all so I don't think he had much- if at all -input on the book and Jim kinda hints at that in the introduction. I mean, if non-canonical material works for people, great. But I like to go to the original source and get an idea of what the writer/creator envisions before I want to hear what anyone else has to say about it.