The Magic Table That Lets You Compose Canons Over A Cantus Firmus (1596)

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Early Music Sources

Early Music Sources

Ай бұрын

For the footnotes and other extra information see the following link:
www.earlymusicsources.com/you...
Created by Elam Rotem and Alon Schab, April 2024
Music examples by Leonardo Bartolotto (viols) and Elam Rotem (harpsichord).
Special thanks to Denis Collins, Peter Schubert, Tim Braithwaite, Sean Curtice, Loren Ludwig and Anne Smith.
Support us on PATREON: / earlymusicsources
Support us by getting an Awesome T-shirt: teechip.com/stores/earlymusic...
Support us by getting a poster of Bathe's table: www.teechip.com/bathe

Пікірлер: 109
@Divergent_Integral
@Divergent_Integral Ай бұрын
For those who want to delve more deeply into this matter, from a modern, mathematically informed perspective, I can definitely recommend Stefan Prey's PhD thesis "Algorithmen zur Satztechnik und ihre Anwendung auf die Analyse". (Unfortunately only in German.)
@aleksandarbrzic8351
@aleksandarbrzic8351 Ай бұрын
Why "unfortunately" ? Could it be a wonderful reason to learn a new language?
@Divergent_Integral
@Divergent_Integral Ай бұрын
@@aleksandarbrzic8351 Many people simply don't have the resources (such as sufficient spare time) to learn a new language, especially up to the level where reading scientific literature in that language becomes feasible. On the other hand, it is true that German is one of the most useful languages to learn for anyone with an interest in music theory.
@Lalulalala824
@Lalulalala824 Ай бұрын
​@@aleksandarbrzic8351what world do you live in? Lmao
@clercflorian4637
@clercflorian4637 Ай бұрын
@@aleksandarbrzic8351 because Life is too short to learn German 😉 / it's a joke
@mer1red
@mer1red Ай бұрын
Can you download it from somewhere? I cannot find a link.
@Hwyadylaw
@Hwyadylaw Ай бұрын
Beautiful presentation. (And I cannot stress enough how crucial the dancing skeleton was to aid my understanding)
@dorontirosh
@dorontirosh Ай бұрын
Thank you for this amazing episode. For me, this channel is life-changing.
@antheagrasselli9489
@antheagrasselli9489 Ай бұрын
Many thanks.❤
@maximilianraab18
@maximilianraab18 Ай бұрын
Thank you Elam for including the score to the opening jingle! I have been trying to learn it by ear for some time, but now I can finally play it!
@liquensrollant
@liquensrollant Ай бұрын
It's wonderful to have these hidden corners of music history brought to light, both by the scholars doing the research and by explaining it on this channel. This channel continues to be a source of delight. Thank you again!
@taylordiclemente5163
@taylordiclemente5163 Ай бұрын
This is a great companion to Peter Schubert's canonic methods. Thank you!
@mattcavoto
@mattcavoto Ай бұрын
Thank you so much for this episode! It would be very interesting to learn more about the change from 6 to 4 syllable solfege in England. And you've inspired me to see about making a derivative chart for placing the cantus firmus above the canon now.
@maxjohn6012
@maxjohn6012 Ай бұрын
Dear Elam, thank you *so much* for this. I've been hoping you'd do something about early English music for years, and this was so much more interesting and useful than I imagined! What a fascinating tool, can't wait to try.
@maxjohn6012
@maxjohn6012 Ай бұрын
It's a lot harder than you make it look ....
@ruthenusalbus5609
@ruthenusalbus5609 Ай бұрын
It would be also very nice to see another series on England's Great Musical Epochue series - e.g., about Rules how to Compose by Giovanni Coprario, New Way of Making Fowre Parts in Counterpoint by Thomas Campion or about hints of musical craft in Matthew Locke's Melothesia...
@puffinwrangler7557
@puffinwrangler7557 Ай бұрын
Fabulous, thank you. I had to learn Palestrina's style from Knud Jeppeson's book during my bachelor's degree. Now I'm inspired tonight to try Bathe's table!
@lcerante
@lcerante Ай бұрын
Elam, thank you for another masterclass! This episode could be a wonderful segway to Costanzo Festa's 125 counterpoints on La Spagna. I would love to see an episode where you dissect his counterpoints! Please do consider! =)
@tobiashaak3568
@tobiashaak3568 5 күн бұрын
I wrote my bachelor thesis in 2010 on possibilities in improvised two-part canons to make a proper cadence at the end of it by using specific phrases through the leader to indicate the end of the canon for the follower.
@kaybrown4010
@kaybrown4010 Ай бұрын
Please tell us more about the English four note solfège. Very interesting video, Elam!
@dannuttle9005
@dannuttle9005 Ай бұрын
It took this channel, after more than twenty years of watching the show, to make me realize that Professor Farnsworth is the only character whose picture is immediately and automatically associated with a single phrase. I plan to write a guide on this subject that will still be debated four hundred years from now. The lower Farnsworth starts with a befuddled, "What?", the middle Farnsworth responds with either an "Oh you!" or an "I am already in my pyjamas", the upper Farnsworth gives a high-pitched laugh, and then all of them resolve in a perfect authentic "good news, everyone."
@dannuttle9005
@dannuttle9005 Ай бұрын
Admit it: You just heard three Professor Farnsworths singing "good news, everyone" in a perfect authentic cadence.
@WilliamFord972
@WilliamFord972 Ай бұрын
“…let’s see how it works and how you could also use it to create fancy canons.” [Seamlessly cuts to a commercial playing “I’ll stop the world and melt with you”] 😂
@ArturJD96
@ArturJD96 Ай бұрын
"The way how the table works is quite simple". IT"S NOT ~ the above is the summary of how Early music works.
@edwardblair4096
@edwardblair4096 16 күн бұрын
It's like how Morley's "Plain and Easy Introduction to Practical Music" is actually somewhat complicated and takes a fair amount of diligent study to fully understand
@jddrew1000
@jddrew1000 Ай бұрын
This was so well done!
@Beryllahawk
@Beryllahawk Ай бұрын
Wonderful video! As always, presented with great clarity and just the right amount of humor! Thank you!
@aleksandarbrzic8351
@aleksandarbrzic8351 Ай бұрын
Finally a new video! Thanks! Great stuff as usual and I love your calm and measured narration...
@inguiable
@inguiable Ай бұрын
Thank you for your work!!!
@gidimeir
@gidimeir Ай бұрын
Wonderful, clearly informative and very well researched and presented. Bravo!
@Saturos02
@Saturos02 Ай бұрын
Fantastic work and presentation, I'll definitely give this a try!
@1974gringojuan
@1974gringojuan Ай бұрын
Brilliant as ever!
@timothyj.bowlby5524
@timothyj.bowlby5524 Ай бұрын
These/this episode(s) are/is so much fun! Thanks.
@L_S_Barros
@L_S_Barros Ай бұрын
Great as always, Elam!
@matthieulamiable4757
@matthieulamiable4757 Ай бұрын
Incredibly useful content. 👍👍
@DrLogical987
@DrLogical987 Ай бұрын
Absolutely fascinating
@TenorCantusFirmus
@TenorCantusFirmus Ай бұрын
Thank you so much! This is amazing.
@carlstenger5893
@carlstenger5893 Ай бұрын
Bravo! This was a fascinating episode. Thanks so much!
@Miguel-zp9yp
@Miguel-zp9yp Ай бұрын
I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. Many thanks for your excellent work!
@weloverobospam
@weloverobospam Ай бұрын
Ahhh! The basket of vegetables that shows up on the table behind Elam.🤣
@carlasker9285
@carlasker9285 Ай бұрын
It is like programming a DX-7. This was HARD.
@PawePoskon
@PawePoskon Ай бұрын
A crossover I didn’t suspect, but appreciate!
@billclarkcomposer7719
@billclarkcomposer7719 Ай бұрын
A wonderfully clear explanation. Well done.
@kamalacalderoni6006
@kamalacalderoni6006 Ай бұрын
OMG you are fabulous! Thank you so much. That is relly fun ❤
@vanessasx
@vanessasx Ай бұрын
So interesting !! Keep making videos
@SayBootsey
@SayBootsey Ай бұрын
Was just telling David how i'm such a noob when it comes to improvising canons. Now you drop this video. Thanks 😀 PS and "i play for you because it's nice" is hands down the best reason for music-making ever 🙂
@chezmeb
@chezmeb Ай бұрын
Wonderful. I have written canon at the unisson but I am planning to work on different intervals this summer. This will be usefull! Great video! Thanks!
@ajjivackovic1782
@ajjivackovic1782 Ай бұрын
YAY beautiful special intro
@gitasong
@gitasong Ай бұрын
OMG-I'm in love!! 🥰🥰🥰
@HighWideandHandsome
@HighWideandHandsome Ай бұрын
Excellent episode. I wonder if this idea might not be outside your the scope of your channel-and if it is, then pass over to other things-but would you consider doing an episode on the practice of composers copying out works by others to improve their own craft?
@Perryz7
@Perryz7 Ай бұрын
I am inspired by this video to try my hand at some canons (and then proceed to break every rule in the book for funsies.) Thank you Elam!
@valtteripennanen4043
@valtteripennanen4043 Ай бұрын
Yaas, a new video.
@diegomaugeri4038
@diegomaugeri4038 Ай бұрын
Wait, can this be used to compose a subject and a countersubject in a fugue? My life just took a turn! Edit: I spoke too soon... I tried a canon in one at the unison on a passamezzo as a cantus firmus (thinking it would've been easier) and by following the table and the observation I ended up with no available choices in the first two notes! Brilliant...
@VaughanMcAlley
@VaughanMcAlley Ай бұрын
A subject and countersubject of a fugue have to be invertable. This is a different thing, though just as interesting, with different intervals allowed according to what interval the inversion will happen at. If you’re Bach you might make them invertible at three intervals at once!
@matteogarzetti
@matteogarzetti Ай бұрын
Wonderful vegetables!!!
@ArturJD96
@ArturJD96 Ай бұрын
Isn't the observation 5 and 6 made for expecting perfect intervals in the final cadences (or avoiding such a situation)? The canons in Bathe treatise you transcribed all end with third and without fifth, so he might have wished to avoid having the final cadence only with 1 and 5.
@RikardPeterson
@RikardPeterson Ай бұрын
In the description of what a canon is, you end with "and many other tricks" after having listed almost every kind of canon I have encountered. I'd love to learn more…
@ajames283
@ajames283 Ай бұрын
My favorite canon over a cantus firmus is by Johann Friedrich Fasch: Canon in F Major Trio Sonata (FaWV N:F5) Strict canon at the fourth below.
@DanielAlvarezVeizaga
@DanielAlvarezVeizaga Ай бұрын
Good to know that canons are like vegetables. ❤
@Johnwilkinsonofficial
@Johnwilkinsonofficial Ай бұрын
Schoenberg referred a few times to the "secrets of the netherlanders" when discussing counterpoint and ive always thought he had certain things like this in mind. do you know more about what Schoenberg meant there ?
@adolflazary5864
@adolflazary5864 Ай бұрын
Hola hola que alegría mis maestros queridos . Gracias
@OlivierAtheba
@OlivierAtheba Ай бұрын
wow, merci
@aingeru11
@aingeru11 Ай бұрын
thanks a lot for the video, sir, one question, in your realization (also in Bathe´s), on second bar, between C F and Dux (leader) there is an octave, then a fifht and again an octave. Is that correct???? Thanks a lot, very useful video
@Sathrandur
@Sathrandur Ай бұрын
A small note: the word _canon_ is from Greek; indeed it is used in Latin, but it is actually borrowed there directly as a transliteration of the Greek word.
@danielfajardo9092
@danielfajardo9092 Ай бұрын
I LOVE U ELAM ROTEM U DESERVE HEAVEN
@carlosandres7006
@carlosandres7006 Ай бұрын
I completely agree 😊❤
@claudiofornasari1263
@claudiofornasari1263 Ай бұрын
Dear Mr. Rotem, your channel is just a miracle for Music enthusiasts! Let me suggest a slight correction to this video: "canon" is not from Latin, but from ancient Greek. Thanks again for your wonderful job! All best!
@charleskleesattel6477
@charleskleesattel6477 Ай бұрын
Interesting. I wish I had had this chart when I was taking 16th c. counterpoint many years ago.
@dotsonpaper
@dotsonpaper Ай бұрын
I look forward to each of your videos the way some people look forward to new Christopher Nolan films.
@lucascecim9102
@lucascecim9102 Ай бұрын
Shape-note singers nowadays are familiar with Fasola System of solmization.
@DallasCrane
@DallasCrane Ай бұрын
The mental math of delay pedals
@vannave5761
@vannave5761 Ай бұрын
nice
@NidusFormicarum
@NidusFormicarum Ай бұрын
Interesting, since I have actually written two consequtive canons over a cantus firmus as a variation in a large series of variations over a Swedish children's song. The style is of course much more modern, but the basic principles are the same. In my case, I have the cantus firmus - the song - at the top and it is varied/ornamented, but that they could be ornamented pretty early in history, right? Since I have orchestrated the piece, I have added a forth part with sustained note values to make the movement feel more full and calmer, but that part is not doubled several times as the pricipal voices are.
@lawrencetaylor4101
@lawrencetaylor4101 Ай бұрын
I just discovered a treatise, Yses of Ye Olde Wah Wah Pedal.
@EdgarFGirtainIV
@EdgarFGirtainIV Ай бұрын
I bet observations 5 and 6 are there to show you how to finish the Canon!!!
@user-cy1ri4wj4b
@user-cy1ri4wj4b Ай бұрын
Thank heavens! Now I can write canons over a cantus firmus! William Bathe was not just Irish, but a convert to Catholicism who was ordained as a Jesuit priest. This method strikes me as being quite Jesuitical, in a good way. One notes the non-canonic voices (amusingly often described as “free voices”) in the “Goldberg” Variations canons with a sense of slightly scandalized relief.
@lordwilksy
@lordwilksy Ай бұрын
I bet Bathe was really good at Sudoku
@marie-evebouchard5572
@marie-evebouchard5572 Ай бұрын
Another question. It seems with the cantus firmus presented in the examples that the rules from fux are not yet applied. For example the repetition of notes. It means the rules are not the same in r Renaissance counterpoint? Thanks.
@marie-evebouchard5572
@marie-evebouchard5572 Ай бұрын
I have a question. For the seconds, thirds, sixths and seventh, does it work both with major and minor intervals?
@Kyrelel
@Kyrelel Ай бұрын
Hmm. How do you know the first note of the follower will be consonant with the cantus firmus if, at no point, is the CF note value considered.
@PawePoskon
@PawePoskon Ай бұрын
Composers nerding their way out since 1596 🤓
@abracadaverous
@abracadaverous Ай бұрын
Now I find that I am suddenly hungry for vegetables.
@richsackett3423
@richsackett3423 Ай бұрын
Seems Observations 5&6 are included in the table in the interest of completeness beyond practical considerations.
@HiroDeBrine
@HiroDeBrine Ай бұрын
Byrd's Passamezzo in its imitative sections is very reminiscent to the earlier organ/keyboard piece, "Felix Namque I" by his teacher and early contemporary Thomas Tallis (1505-1585). I find Felix Namque sounds quite interesting and modern at times due to its archaic early Tudor use of part writing. Tallis struggled to let go of the old "Eton Choirbook" native style ((especially when it came to fauxbourdon retained in his Latin polyphonic music: you can hear a bit of it if you listen to the late motets "Te Lucis Ante Terminum" and "Suscipe Quaeso Domine")) in favour of the new Italian styles arriving during the late Tudor era, one of the factors that caused Tallis' final compositions to sell very poorly. Felix Namque is not unique as it was common practice for organists in England, pre-reformation, to improvise or compose imitative counterpoint with repetitive melodic structures for votive Marian chants during Vespers and Compline. There are several examples of the Felix Namque chant being used and by the advent of the English Reformation, often the organ subsituted sung chant entirely. However, Tallis' work uniquely dates to the late Tudor period, unlike the other examples, when the reformation forbade the use of Latin chants and cantus firmus in a religious context, and as Felix Namque was compiled in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book (which contains works by keyboard composers active mostly after Tallis' death, such as Sweelinck, Gibbons and Bull) it was likely well-known and used outside of the chant's context. Perhaps Tallis' impression with organ chant composition with multiple short imitations helped inspire his pupil, Byrd, in his contributions to the Virginalist school, including in Pazzamezzo, many years before contact with Bull. Early Music history and theory grows deeper the more you read into it, but its always, always fascinating. Lovely video as usual 👏👏👏
@brendanward2991
@brendanward2991 Ай бұрын
"An English author ... the Irish Catholic William Bathe" ?
@user-cy1ri4wj4b
@user-cy1ri4wj4b Ай бұрын
Presumably implying an author who wrote and published in the English language.
@bifeldman
@bifeldman Ай бұрын
The Krell Mind Expander.
@declamatory
@declamatory Ай бұрын
"It's not"
@WilliamFord972
@WilliamFord972 Ай бұрын
I’m early this time!
@MichaelJohnson-composer
@MichaelJohnson-composer 29 күн бұрын
Great video! But HELP! don’t understand why in your explanation at 8:53, you put 1/3/6 below the third note when the CF clearly moves up a second, not a third. Why don’t you write 3/5 below the third note? You also do this in the canon writing examples toward the end of the video. The melody steps up from D to E and you write 1/3/6 as possibilities, as if the CF was moving by a third. Why?
@NenadStefanovicbach
@NenadStefanovicbach 29 күн бұрын
Great!! After canons there are fugues!!! Kunst der fugue!!! :)
@emilianodorantes2434
@emilianodorantes2434 Ай бұрын
Let’s try…
@billymeyer99
@billymeyer99 Ай бұрын
A real brain twister.
@emilianodorantes2434
@emilianodorantes2434 Ай бұрын
The poster of the table is a joke? Because I would like to order one of those 😂
@EarlyMusicSources
@EarlyMusicSources Ай бұрын
www.teechip.com/bathe
@gitasong
@gitasong Ай бұрын
You could always just make a Google spreadsheet. 😁
@CalebePriester
@CalebePriester Ай бұрын
I don't understand. I must be really dumb. Sad.
@EarlyMusicSources
@EarlyMusicSources Ай бұрын
Believe me the problem is not yours - it's a mess
@randmorf
@randmorf Ай бұрын
Seems like a great application for AI (artificial intelligence).
@mq172
@mq172 Ай бұрын
Correction: The Magic Table that lets *AI* compose canons over a Cantus Firmus (or, as we called 'em in school: Cantus Erectus)
@superblondeDotOrg
@superblondeDotOrg Ай бұрын
Give it to AI to train on = the death of music innovation
@mer1red
@mer1red Ай бұрын
I don't look at AI as good or bad, black or white. I see an AI tool as an assistant. It is sometimes hard to keep all the rules in mind when I wrote something. If you don't have a teacher who corrects you, AI can help to signal weak spots. But the intuition, inspiration and decision to deviate from what is mathematically correct is where art comes in, and this should remain. No full automation.
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