The Magic: the Gathering Iceberg Explained

[@Cloudy573]

The fact that this iceberg contains not one, but TWO bad rap albums is not something I was expecting.

[@MTGGoldfish]

Apparently a lot of Magic players are secretly rappers, or at least think they are ;)

[@collinbeal]

​@@MTGGoldfishRemy track with Saffron Olive on the hook when?

[@hugoinfante4402]

@@collinbealiio😮

[@GigaBoost]

Bad???

[@yasushix3672]

Huh, 2 nickles

[@mattduarte4914]

The iceberg is lacking Throat Wolf! In the early years of Magic, it was a rumored to be a super rare "hidden" card that was said to have an ability that worked as sort of "super first strike". Wizards made fun of the whole thing by actually releasing it as one of the Mystery Booster playtest cards.

[@terryprentice9657]

It supposedly had "Firstest Strike." Duelist #9 had an article about it. It was basically the first M:tG hoax.

[@josephwodarczyk977]

30:40 That judge who offered to search each trashcan is a baller. Instead of aggression or accusing, he just let the cheater panic.

[@stuflames4769]

Classiest (and really most effective) way to handle the situation.

[@Fopenplop]

About the Arena shuffler, I think it's important to acknowledge that in 2019, reddit user Douglasjm did some pretty extensive testing and provided evidence that the shuffler was incorrectly implemented and a plausible explanation for how. Later testing showed that the bug had been fixed, but for a time there was something to it.

[@pailofawesome]

This is the major problem with the continued conspiracy theory about the shuffler though - None of the people that actively believe MTGA is rigged go back to check the data after the bug-fix & see that everything is as it should be.

[@MadMagicMaXXX]

Let's check it again across a few more variables, because there's still a problem that's in arena being used to manipulate the outcomes.

[@Blee622]

Yeah my draws suck always and I've never spent a dime

[@yoyo7718]

I call cap that its fixed, if my first hand has 3 or 4 lands, i will then continue to draw a ton of lands every time, if i have more spells, i draw more spells. Somethings definitely not entirely random with the shuffle

[@cadonuno]

Keep in mind that Phyrexian uses some sounds that are impossible for humans to make, so you can't speak it, at least not 100%

[@VinegarAndSaltedFries]

Unless you surgically implant and become Compleat

[@nodugonokonomusufunoko]

Unless you are a freak of nature.

[@nodugonokonomusufunoko]

Gotta get my hands on some of that oil @@VinegarAndSaltedFries

[@ullrich]

Yea! I believe I heard them described as like, metal blades scraping together.

[@cadonuno]

@@ullrich think we watched the same video :D

[@CriticalFeline]

I believe the "Shandalar 2" thing might be referring to an obscure line in the game, where one of the village elders tells you that the evil archfiend Arzakon (the main villain of the game) had a powerful rival named Yamden. People probably speculated that this was hinting at a potential sequel.

[@MTGGoldfish]

Wow, that's a super deep cut. I'm impressed.

[@janAkaliKilo]

@@MTGGoldfish Or it might be referring to the open-source clone of Shandalar aka 'Adventure mode' in Forge (MTG simulator). There are videos on youtube with gameplay and guides online how to set it up. Honestly, Forge, Xmage and Wagic could even deserve it's own video.

[@ab-mc2nq]

Yawden, not Yamden

[@gabrielseller6434]

How has no one mentioned the true here to the Uktabi throne?! Kibo, Uktabi Prince waa printed in Jumpstart 2022 and was also available as a promo for it

[@HadesElderSage]

I saw that they missed that. Wizards confirmed that three card story with the printing of that legendary who creates banana gifts! When that card was revealed Reddit was pretty crazy and happy to see the conclusion of the happy couple from the first card.

[@-rolyat44]

Thank you, I literally came into the comments just to make sure someone made this comment.

[@Triforceog]

I did my duty and scrolled first before posting and i salute you for hitting this note with the neccessary emotions how could this be missed 😂😂😂

[@xpeterx]

scrolled to the comments to write exactly that. weird that's not referenced. it's clear as day.

[@KingBobXVI]

@@HadesElderSage - It's a four-card story! The Jumpstart printing of Uktabi Orangutan has the orangutan breaking a plate to keep Kibo entertained while the two parents watch in the background.

[@frosty980]

It’s important to note about the reserve list that the big factor was the stores rather than individual collectors that were freaking out about cards tanking due to overprinting. A lot of card shops had just went through a giant market crash of baseball cards due to overprinting and since magic was still new at the time the stores were understandably nervous about holding a lot of money in a fad that could crash

[@ullrich]

Great point. People only think of the investor putting their "college fund in cardboard" when they think about the secondary market, but they don't seem to consider the LGS for whatever reason. Like, they don't make enough money off of the Mountain Dew and Cheetoes you buy when you hang out at their store for 5 hours on a Friday night. They have to make money off of the secondary market, too.

[@AC3handle]

That was very late 90s, early 2000s? When Wizards was really cranking out sets and STARTING to innundate the market. (4 sets a year, we felt was a lot. Oh our sweet sweet younger selves. I want to pat their heads and tell them to enjoy this time period. Also to buy alpha cards because they're stupid cheap stil) That was also when Marvel comics was about to completely fail, till disney bought it up, if I remember correctly. Many a comic/card shop were nervous those years.

[@ralphthegnome]

Also, reprinting (which wasn't the first time a card was reprinted in a different set) with the original set stamp instead of something like a Chronicles set stamp. This led to a lot of people inking/dying the white border and trying to slip a chronicles card as an original. It was obvious, even if well done, if you had ever seen the original print runs.. but trading was still pretty big back then. The big scam type, I recall, was initiating the trade with an original copy, then palming it and replacing with a black border Chronicles card, hoping it goes unnoticed.

[@terryprentice9657]

@@AC3handle Chronicles came out in August '95 and went out of print in December '96.

[@AC3handle]

@@terryprentice9657 Chronicles is FOREVER.

[@ILSquirtles23]

The funny thing about golgari death swarm (6:22) is that its initials are also GDS :P

[@TransSoulAlesha]

for the olivia voldaren art, it's not her knee, it's wotc printing a card without the finishing touches. it's supposed to be fabric she's holding. you can see it on the artist's video of drawing olivia. it was her knee at one point, then the legs moved, and now it's just kinda funny

[@shadowfate05]

It was actually never her knee. It looked draped for most of the process, but when Eric Deschamps added more detail to the hand and adjusted the arm position, the dress ended up straighter. He fixed it to be draped again in the final revision, but had accidentally saved that to a backup drive instead of his regular drive, and sent WotC the version before he had fixed it.

[@kpoffaas]

Glad to see this actually mentioned.

[@MrPuzzoncello]

59:16 "puff puff pass and crop rotation" UNIRONICALLY AN INSANE BAR

[@SirDanyTheWarrior]

I knew that Golgari Death Swarm was a reference to that GDS question. But not until today I realized that it shares initials with the Great Designer Search!!

[@neorazor1403]

Trigger warning, they flash Rudy's face for a whole second and a half!!!! ⚠️

[@brokloppsen]

😂😂

[@Dareianrc36]

This is the kind of content I subbed for. Long form magic trivia videos just does it on a workday

[@KingBobXVI]

46:35 - "...it's her knee..." It's _supposed_ to be her knee, but the artist made a mistake and she also has two legs on the other side of the dress, meaning if it _is_ her knee, she either has three legs, or her shin on one side is like 5 feet long, lol.

[@fo-ef8qo]

37:34 I can sense Seth's blood pressure go up as companion becomes the topic lol

[@andrewsheiman8574]

54:00 it's worth mentioning that the reason JTMS was so important to Chapin is he was one of very few pros who correctly predicted that JTMS was absurdly strong, and indeed banworthy.

[@AutkastKain]

Seeing the clip of Dan Wells and Brandon Sanderson in this was unexpected. Such a collision of my favorite things (although Sanderson literally said in a recent live stream that he was contacted for a secret lair, though WOTC never did it)

[@bananalord3882]

There is a direct Stormlight Archives reference on the secret lair Grand Abolisher though!!!

[@AutkastKain]

@@bananalord3882 I do remember seeing that! The flavor text is perfect, and it's such great art that is remarkably similar to some stormlight descriptions. I just feel robbed knowing that a full Cosmere secret lair was literally offered, but WOTC failed us

[@Beowulfgang_Amadeus]

BrandoSando is a huge MTG fan. There's a relatively unknown post somewhere on the internet detailing this fact. No I cannot find it. Edit: he also wrote a Magic Novella.

[@AutkastKain]

@@Beowulfgang_Amadeus I am very well aware of Sanderson's magic interest. I just didn't expect it to be related to anything on this iceberg. I read the novella sometime last year I think. It's very very good

[@Savaniel]

That sounds really interesting, do you remember which stream it was in? A Sanderson secret lair would be so cool

[@Suspinded]

Re : The Reserved List The "Foil Loophole" was that they could do foil versions as long as they weren't in commercial product. This allowed the promo printings for Judge Foils, etc because they weren't being commercially released. The FTV:Relics and DD:Phyrexia v Coalition broke that, which spiraled into the lock down we have today.

[@MTGGoldfish]

I don't think that's exactly right. Here's an achieved version of Wizards article talking about ending the loophole. According to the wording of the RL they would print anything they wanted in foil, but based on people freaking out about Negator the ended it. web.archive.org/web/20160208011341/magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/revised-reprint-policy-2010-03-18

[@AndrewS-vu4ji]

My headcanon for that whole chandra-nissa debacle is that chandra was repressing that feeling because gideon had literally just died. Probably an amalgamation of grief over a friend, not wanting to engage in love, and a genuine admiration of gideon as a person.

[@ich3730]

dont make this trash book into something that sounds kinda cool. Chandra in grief, wondering if what she feels is the loss of a friend, an idol or a lover sounds so good.

[@AndrewS-vu4ji]

@@ich3730 headcanon isn't the book tho? and it perfectly would have set up going back to nissa after a little while(which is basically what they did anyway)

[@sandwichgamer1075]

Wow. I literally just searched MtG Iceberg AND I FIND THIS VIDEO RELEASED 11 MINUTES AGO. Nice 😂

[@jackl8025]

You summoned it

[@laszlokaszas1003]

There is also 1 wich is just MtG rules iceberg

[@sandwichgamer1075]

Yeah that was the video I actually wanted to seen :D

[@Nolsie]

How much mana did you pay?

[@Willsr14]

The 'Arena is rigged against f2p players' one might be just a conspiracy for MTGarena, but it's industry standard for mobile games. While there is little evidence to suggest MTGarena has such a system, many mobile and some PC games (including card games) increase/decrease your rewards based on what you buy, how recently you bought, and how often you buy. It's a fully weaponised dopamine drip.

[@jaxsonbateman]

There's also the matter of queueing for games. They'll queue you against other free (and thus 'underpowered') players early on, so you have the feeling of being able to compete, and likely get some of that dopamine hit from getting a few wins under your belt. Once you've got enough of a taste that you might be on the hook, they'll start queueing you against people who have paid for power, hoping that you'll feel the need to buy power yourself to keep up, and hoping that you've enjoyed the game (and dopamine) to that point to actually put some money in.

[@mavcovic]

The last time I was Mythic in Limited was the time I payed with money for the Mastery Pass instead of buying it with gems. When I don't spend money I get a lot more mana flood and mana screws in Limited.

[@SymmetricalDocking]

​@@jaxsonbatemanThat's above the water line on the algorithmic matchmaking iceberg. It doesn't match you against random or equally skilled opponents (ELO etc), instead it shifts the difficulty in order to prolong the amount of time you play the game. e.g. Easy first few opponents, then much harder because people like to end on a win. The algorithms goal is maximum time in the app. That's not even unknown like the shuffler theories, that's just the industry standard in all Online matchmaking. Barely below the water line.

[@jaxsonbateman]

@@SymmetricalDocking I'm not talking about any icebergs here. We're just discussing how matchmaking can work in games to increase profits (or as you say, increase player gametime which will likely end up with increased profits).

[@MrJerichoPumpkin]

I've played a really long time tabletop and I'm fairly unlucky, but I've never experienced the unbelievable amount of lucky strokes (both sides) and unplayable hands (both sides) the I regulary witness on Arena. And at the end of the day, it all boils down to 50% average win rate for f2p. A trick that might work to fool Arena is to play with highly underpowered/inefficient decks, seemingly you continue to fall back into the "I'll hold your hand and give you low skill opponents" territory

[@Silverpicker]

This was legit one of my favorite mtg videos ever

[@imaginarymatter]

Still boggles the mind how War of the Spark had one of the most amazing trailers ever made and almost created a new medium of story telling. And then absolutely fumbled the novelization. The worst part is that they had the audacity to charge money for the book after the online stories leading up to War of the Spark were legitimately good and free to read.

[@SuenteusPi]

The Legendary Cube prize packs were insanely bad value, is why they're on the list. Made that cube event incredibly bad EV, instead of the very minorly negative EV cube events usually are run at.

[@LowQualContent]

@28:36 this is how I feel about compleated Tibat!!! Give that man a compleated card, his compleated design rocks!

[@Roeland007]

One thing that is missing on the iceberg in my opinion is alternate fourth. It's probably even lesser known than summer magic. Is was a test print for using a different printing company for magic that was never supposed to be released.

[@OninRuns]

I cannot believe this iceberg doesn't have Pro Tour Honolulu.

[@tylersimmons7105]

The tale of Hans is too legendary and well known to be on an iceberg video.

[@janAkaliKilo]

About the Shandalar 2 - It is a bit of a stretch, but it could refer to the community made and maintained clone of Shandalar - 'Adventure Mode' of Forge (open-source MTG simulator). It plays very much like Shandalar but with all thousands of cards from throughout the history of MTG, hundreds of enemy decks, bosses and even quests.

[@crap1521]

I’m pretty surprised the seance scandal didn’t show up on here given how rather infamous it was. For those who don’t know (and I might be butchering this a little), the price of “Seance” randomly shot up one day and no one knew why until an MTG finance collector made a now infamous post on one of the magic subreddits offering to pay a pro player to build a modern deck with the card and take it to the pro tour in order to raise the price of the card after he single handedly bought up a small army of it (we’re talking THOUSANDS of copies here, he tried to buy up as much of the supply as he could). The story was pretty scandalous in the MTG community at the time

[@Hurtishappy]

Cool video Seth! Glad you put so much time into it, really shows!

[@netanelaker4437]

Two things that the iceberg misses: 1. Unsleeved Media X Sparkle. 2. Goyfgate.

[@MTGGoldfish]

Ohh, those are good ones! Have you considering making an iceberg for me to explain ;)

[@kal2489]

The foil City of Traitors not being here surprised me.

[@netanelaker4437]

@MTGGoldfish . I would love to! I'll give you the headlines and I'll let you enter the rabbit holes. If you make a part 2, just please say netn10 sent ya ;) A note: Some of these are spicy. 1. Mark Rosewater's 7/11 comment. 2. Trapped in a Tower spoiled on nine eleven. 3. Family Guy, MTGO and virginity. 4. South Park's Cock Magic. 5. Lightning Bolt and Goyf. 6. Morphs and the stack. 7. Hyalopterous Lamure. 8. Throat Wolf. 9. All the backs of Magic cards has a pen mark. 10. The story behind Deckmasters. 11. Standoff in Honolulu. 12. Shahar Shenhar and the IDF. 13. Remy had a rap line, "I'm like a Palestinian, I ain't got no land." 14. Marit Lage is an Eldrazi. 15. Why Delay in French is so expensive.

[@DorkmasterFlek]

The funny thing about the Hearthstone/Companion part of the video is that it depicts MaRo saying "No" to the mechanic when iirc he was the one who came up with it and pushed for it in the first place. 😂

[@jcanizales]

He also has an old article about why game to game variety is essential to the health of the game and so for example they would never do something as ridiculous as a card that always is in your starting hand. Lol.

[@mikeberg6407]

Cheating and having your opponent defend you is some gid tier loki shenanigans

[@Aigis31]

48:50 I'm really sad Seth didn't mention that "Death Corona" is literally the name of one of Spacegodzilla's attacks, hence why it was on the card in the first place. It was just VERY unfortunate timing with when it was printed.

[@seancherry1130]

Yah the godzilla one was bad only because of the timing, literally any point beforehand no one would have cared. Trapped in the tower was another VERY bad timing, but that one could have been avoided.

[@Tempestuous_Might]

What a set. Don't forget the also morbidly foreboding Gloom Pangolin and Dirge Bat from the same set. Now I wanna make a 2020 deck.

[@The_Dying_Rose]

The death Corona one was hilarious, and I refuse to play with the renamed one.

[@FarewellOrwell]

Seth isn't too bright

[@Amascut]

Regarding the Phyrexian invasion of “Ixilan” - Robot was right but for the wrong reason. It was confirmed the MH1 card was just a gag about the Sun Empire finding oil, from Dino bones breaking down. By pure chance, the Phyrexians then invaded the multiverse!

[@CameraChai]

The way you speak is insane

[@senoreverything6366]

Ikr? I love his content, but his voice really gets on me sometimes. I have to take breaks

[@Mikhail-Kuhn]

Bro I can't with the rest of the video lol it's like he's doing that voice in satire but just talk normally dude

[@GigaBoost]

It's fun how the arena shuffler "conspiracy" turned out to be true and factual

[@stephenwithaph1566]

The issue for wotc, and other companies like Tencent and its subsidiaries, is that they rely so heavily on poorly and often maliciously implemented algorithms as a backbone of their game whereby "fixing" it would be to literally entirely remake it. For MTG, the "shuffler" hands you cards one at a time, and only generates (laggily) the full deck list and organizes it for you only when you search your library. This is inseparable to the infrastructure of the game, and would require a complete remodeling of the game. to be fair; there is a large infrastructural and financial reason to deny deny deny, making the obvious lack of transparancy and consistently common 0.00004% draws even more frustrating to former longtime players. To make things worse for them, WOTC, a company who evermore has been profit-driven rather than player-experience-driven, would be the unlikely pariah to break from industry standards of overmonetizing core gameplay and handing the occasional free win to those who pay (see: the success of mobile games industry and pay2win schemes).

[@Bananarama67]

MTG Arena giving you better draws, matchups, etc after spending money isn't really so far out there. It's effectively how all p2w mobile games work, no reason to believe WotC doesn't also do this.

[@TheMaverickGirlGaming]

The Magister of Worth bit was definitely some kind of viral marketing. The backs of each Magister card that came out of those boosters had some kind of code on the back which people figured out, though I forget what the resolution was. IIRC, the code led to a website for Conspiracy.

[@CheatD1n]

It had a phone number printed in gold foil, which when called just had a machine reading off a ciphered series of letters that once deciphered simply described Cogwork Librarian.

[@TripsAhoy]

I didnt know what this type of an Iceberg was but man im glad i sat diwn and watched the video. Great work Seth.

[@kemperfranklin1935]

Honestly coolest video yet! Love you Seth!

[@MTGGoldfish]

Thanks!

[@dragonmz5274]

Surprised 57:56 didn't mention the secret lair that riffs on this with the Plains that you can rip the foiling off of to become Battlefield Forge

[@NeoSamurai13]

Awesome video, I didn't know most of them. I'm a bit sad that the showdown at pt Honolulu wasn't included on the iceberg, that one's my favorite.

[@MikeVonwolkenstein]

Very well done iceberg video, favorite magic the gathering iceberg I seen.

[@thomasdehetre300]

The reserve list is a joke. An aplha soul ring is still almost 2 grand and it is one of the most heavily reprinted cards. Reprinting the cards might effect the value somewhat but the originals are still just that, yhe originals. Super cold take haha

[@KingBobXVI]

31:00 - On the topic of large amounts of cheating, there was a story about Sheldon Menery that I feel should be on this list as "Bird of Paradise". Another common method of cheating relating to drafts was bringing registration sheets from home with pre-made card pools on them, and submitting those instead of a real list. Since it was so rampant and he wanted to put a stop to it, Sheldon printed the registration sheets for the event with an innocuous misprint/canary by removing the first "s" on "Birds of Paradise". Once all the lists were submitted, he told his judge team and instructed them to pull out all the registered lists with "Birds of Paradise", and DQ'd all of those players.

[@InsertCleverNameHere0]

Re: Avengers Endgame is the Magic movie I'm guessing this is actually related to the fact that the Russo Brothers, directors of Endgame, had been on the Magic feature film project for a long time before the project died, and maybe there's some conspiracy theory that they repurposed the script for the Magic movie for Endgame (not that that would make sense either since the Russo's didn't write Endgame).

[@docseamonster3491]

I think semi-canonically, Kibo, Uktabi Prince is supposed to be the... er... baby of the two monkeys.

[@Beanz961]

Shout out to Magister of Worth in your creature based GY EDH decks, no one wants you to reanimate your graveyard so it's always a wrath on a creature you can reanimate when the board gets gummed up

[@brandonguffey5959]

Okay lets be real though the crop rotation grinding station line in the rap is actually hilarious.

[@thygamerguy]

This was such a fun video!!

[@MTGGoldfish]

Thanks!

[@cuddlequeen3225]

I knew absolutely none of this. Thanks for sharing all this history!

[@Spinoguy03]

Olivia Voldaren: It's a knee I swear. Everyone: I see your feet, that's not a knee!

[@loonymouse7278]

This was a really cool video! I knew quite a bit more than I expected having just started playing in February this year.

[@Firebert]

This is a masterclass on mispronouncing words. I think the Martin Shkreli mispronunciation was the best.

[@banhartday]

Very fun video =) During the secondary market section typo went on the screen in giant letters, my wife said "it's like an idiot woke up first thing in the morning and was asked to spell 'accessible'"

[@MTGGoldfish]

lol, she was more or less right

[@jrRabet]

No. That is not Olivia Voldarens knee. If you look closer you'll see both of her feet are together with straight legs. Now I don't think anything lewd is happening as it's just her pulling a bit of skirt forward with her hand, but I do understand why this art can cause an unfortunate double take.

[@Aellef]

It's been 5 years and still... Look how they murdered my boy! 😢💔 RIP Dack. You're robbing God now.

[@andyspendlove1019]

46:36 re: Olivia’s art, the thing that makes it sus is that if you look at her feet/the end of her legs, they’re both clearly parallel to each other in a position that doesn’t make sense if her knee is raised to that acrobatic height. I’m not saying what that bulge IS, but… it’s hard to conclude it’s her knee

[@LunarWingCloud]

It is her knee. It was an artist error, unfortunately the artist *did* make a corrected version but it didn't make it to print in time.

[@hansoskar1911]

PT Riots: WOTC not only changed the tap-your-lands-before-you-cast-spells Rule but also changed the DQ policy, while previously all DQs were without prices, DQs from upgrades still came with prices. That was reverted not that long ago, as warning and other punishments are a lot harder to come by as officiating has changed.

[@avrilsegoli]

there's a surprising lack of mechanics from the actual game in this iceberg - the Substance mechanic, for example, feels like a big missed inclusion.

[@Bopnan]

3:01 As someone who plays YuGiOh Master Duel as their prime TCG card experience, it makes me happy to know that other online games also have their equivalent of "Konami rigs the game in favor of Japanese players".

[@RetroTeddyBear]

"HE HAS A FRONT BUTT". Is not something I was expecting to think in my lifetime.

[@heraclius1045]

Sad you didn't shout out the Adventure mode in Forge, since it's a homage to the original Shandalar

[@jacebeleren3]

The top google question was the right one. Who corrupted Horus? It's part of the magic lore now.

[@meganerd64]

9:25 Seth says “Nost motable” instead of “Most notable” haha

[@dough4prez]

LONG LIVE THE RESERVED LIST!!❤

[@lilithhenderson]

Im sorry. But that is not Olivia Voldaren's knee. We can see where her legs end. If that was a knee one of her legs is 2 times the length of the other one.

[@jrjamesson]

I feel like if commander staples like sol ring and demonic tutor were on the reserve list and couldn't be reprinted, they'd just be banned in commander. no real way to explain why the original moxen are banned and sol ring isn't, it can't be a power level thing.

[@pgn42]

The real reason we’re stuck with sol ring is because wotc randomly threw it in the first commander precons

[@stewyxtreme]

How can it be her knee, if both of her feet are seen next to each other?

[@Finngrinder]

yeah, Wotc might have ripped off the Hearthstone cards but I once read a story Maro supposedly had Companions in mind as early as Tempest in 1997. The plans according to that story were stopped because the mechanic was even more broken since you had to discard a card in addition for the casting cost of your companion which would have included a free Dredge or Reanimation fodder

[@MrJerichoPumpkin]

ah, I've missed being driven mad by Seth inability to pronounce "ch" as "k" and "gi" as "j" on words from latin languages. "Marchesa" sounds like mark + esa, Giada is literally the italian for Jade, you pronounce it jada...

[@ultratog1028]

Richard Garfield's funeral is gonna come with the BBBB card of the cycle

[@jackl8025]

Olivia Voldaren art: it looks like her knee but both of her legs hang loose behind her, so maybe she's got a third leg!

[@ianford9221]

it could also be her just holing her dress, it's not an uncommon thing to do

[@MistaHoward]

The real explanation is that it was her knee, but the artist realized that pose looked too awkward, so he unconvincingly redrew her hand to try and make it look like she was holding her skirt.

[@joshuaadams5295]

This was a really good and cool video!

[@joshuaboniface]

There's one slightly critical bit you missed when talking about Magic being Turing Complete. A Turing Machine is an idealized *computer*. All modern computers are, effectively, Turning machines. For something to be "Turning complete", it means that it can perform any computation that a Turing Machine could, which means it could theoretically run any program, from a basic calculator to MTG: Arena to KZbin to your Browser. And as Kyle Hill demonstrates in his video, yep you can. It's slow (nothing about a Turning Machine/Turning completeness requires it to be *fast*) but you could theoretically calculate anything with it. I don't believe any other game can approach that complexity.

[@TheSushiandme]

Good listen. Thank you

[@SpookySleep]

The only thing this iceberg is missing is "ALL HAIL THE GREAT LORD EGOTIST", great video nonetheless!

[@AC3handle]

So the 'shandalar 2', or Microprose MTG game had these guys on this one forum, I THINK it was called slightlymagic, and they at first worked to make the original game with expansions playable on modern computers. They got this done, and sought to expand the card base in the game. They got up to about the 2010 mark, and continued to work on making further expansions. ONE guy was the core coder, and he was doing most of the work, with everyone else working to find bugs, and sometimes just making simple cards. (vanilla or keyword only cards) Part of the problem they were running into was each iteration had unique bugs, which needed to be found and patched, and by the time they got the patches going, a new block had come out, which ment new cards, and so it continued. The game engine was starting to have issues, and would sometimes crash, or do insane things. But they kept working on it. Sometime in 2016, there was this guy on youtube who reported MTG stuff, it was mostly just audio blogging with visuals of either mana symbols or of footage of some game being played. I forgot his name, but he was WAY major critical of WoTC, and judges. Like REALLY nasty to WoTC. He made Magic Historian look like a WoTC fanboy by comparison. SO he got a hold of one of the versions of Microprose MTG that was still being worked on, as the guys on the forum would post each version and their updates. So of course it has issues, and he made a whole video about how horrible this game is, and how the manalink game works like shit, ect... he even made an account on the forum and ripped into people there. The guy who was doing most of the coding was NOT happy, and he decided to pull all his work from the site. Other forum mods were like, 'well, he HAS done all the work, so...' and they agreed with, and let this happen. A few people who had downloaded some of the different versions posted and contacted anyone who asked, and let them know where they could get the fileshare spots at, which pissed the guy off even more, and mods began deleting and banning people who posted links. The last update I personally have goes up to Aether Revolt, but is missing a lot of the cards from the set, simply because of the problematic nature of said cards. They DID manage to make the energy tokens work, so there are a few of those, but it's got odd bugs here and there. I don't know if any work on the shandalar part was ever continued or completed at least, if there is, it's not public. Which is a real shame. But I think they were also getting in trouble with WoTC for use of art, so there's that. Also they could never get planeswalkers to work properly, there was never a card type designed for them, so they essentially were indestructible enchantments with counters. THey got them to work somewhat in the Manalink version, but not the shandalar.

[@MCKejml]

This really needs to be mor visible.

[@AC3handle]

@@MCKejml If seth wants to take a look at the game, I could post the forum, and he could ask there. A youtube personality who is respectful and polite might go a long way to getting them to release those older patches and anything new worked on. The engine is clunky AF, and I don't know how much work has been done on it. it IS however, the ONLY RPG style MTG game out there, and I do massively enjoy it, still, to this day. The best part is it runs on older machines, although...when there's too many cards on the field, the game starts slogging up.

[@MCKejml]

@@AC3handle I did play the new version And IT was neat someone kept updating it with new cards and decks

[@AC3handle]

@@MCKejml how new is new? Were there still glitches and bugs?

[@MCKejml]

@@AC3handle Well, new as in with updated cards, like 4 years.ago

[@johnpirate3135]

Although Sid was banned from magic, he endded up getting a new DCI number during his banned period and still played in tournaments. Nice dude actually.

[@christophervennix9861]

I've got to disagree with the reserve list hate. Two key points: 1) it represents a lasting promise by Wizards - to roll it back now would hugely impact player trust in any future promises they make. 2) Collecting rare cards is the key experience for many mtg players and it these collectors represent a significant amount of the funding for local game stores (LGS's) and online retailers of mtg cards. Removing the reserve list burns these collectors more than any other players and will see a decrease in the trade of value cards that ultimately hurts LGS's and retailers...which ultimately hurts all players.

[@SeanteBrown]

I love vids like these. Keep ‘em comin

[@johntrotter7372]

The reserve list was never needed to save the game. It was perhaps needed to prop up the secondary market, but that is not only irrelevant but actually works against the game being available to more players. At this point, they are just refusing to reprint the cards to not admit the mistake.

[@lethargicsloth4913]

Glad I finally had something that's bugged me for years now cleared up. I got into magic in the past few years, and always thought Mark Rosewater (the name) was familiar to me, like I'd seen it before several times, only I'd never touched magic (or even known about it) until recent years... My mother watched the TV show Roseanne religiously when I was young, viewing multiple reruns daily. I'm not 100%, but that's the only way I could see having known his name before

[@kylekovacs497]

Yes, yes, more of this please Seth! Thank you for doing these awesome non-gameplay videos.

[@RageTreb]

Interesting that you insist that's Oliva Voldaren's knee when the proof that it isn't is her feet, which are mysteriously cropped from the video 🤔

[@ArninoStorm]

I've seen another iceberg with way weirder and obscure stuff, like "Getting a restraining order as a win condition."

[@MTGGoldfish]

The only other Magic iceberg I could find on KZbin was a Magic Rules iceberg, I wouldn't be surprised if it was from that.

[@slighguytv5903]

MTG Salvation was a forum that split off from the original MTG News. And yes we all looked forward to Rancored Elf and his spoilers

[@LizaPlz]

when you said jtms better than all a rush or memories came flooding back lol

[@rocksted]

Why you pitch down your voice on every end phrase?

[@MrBroFirst]

HONEY, DROP EVERYTHING, MTGGOLFISH JUST DROPPED AN ICEBERG VIDEO.

[@Dsmky117]

this is my favorite mtg goldfish video with the word "asscracks" in it

[@Hanmacx]

44:59 if you like Shandalar, check out Adventure Mode of Mtg Forge

[@MistaHoward]

If it's really her knee then why did you crop out the bottom of her skirt Seth???? WHY DID YOU CROP HER SKIRT???

[@primozpapic8643]

Two things about two artwork items: 1) Olivia Voldaren's knee: I honestly never seen much debate that it might be some other appendage, as it's implied. Mostly that it seems to be artwork mistake, where it was supposed to be her knee, but either the artist or WOTC decided that Olivia needs both legs visible. This means it can't be her knee. The question is (at least for me) was this a mistake, that nobody noticed, a late change or mix of both. To me it mostly feels like a late change, where this was supposed to be the knee, but then it was change so it's supposedly just how she's holding the dress. 2) Uktabi Kong: I think I'm the only person who never saw the background monkeys as doing the deed. I think Una Fricker isn't as widely popular as those at the top of the list, but personally I always enjoyed her very realistic depiction of animals. And the pose depicted is a pose that monkeys actually do IRL. So my association was more to that than to what even WOTC went with.

[@Alikaoz]

IIRC, the artist for Olivia confirmed they just moved the legs but forgot to fix the dress and nobody caught it until it was already printed. It was supposed to be her knee, but her knee is not there.

[@suNn.K.O]

I just interpret it as her holding the dress.

[@shadowfate05]

@@Alikaoz He moved Olivia's arm and added more detail to that area, which made the dress straighter in the process (it was draped prior to that in a time lapse he provided). One of the last things he did was fix the dress to look more like hanging cloth, but saved it to a backup drive, and accidentally sent the unfixed version from his regular drive to WotC

[@LunarWingCloud]

​@@shadowfate05oh that's what it was? I thought they didn't get to send the correct version in time, I didn't know they had the correct version and sent the wrong one by mistake

[@andycates7923]

YES, thank you for the link for Shandalars!

[@FixerFour]

20:14 That Kami of the Crescent Moon alter is outstanding, I need one for my Kwain deck

[@slippyminaj]

The Chandra/Nissa thing is still funny to me. They built it up for a while and then dumped it over the course of a paragraph. If they wanted the romance to not happen, they could have just not written it or slowly showed a relationship not working out

[@stevecooper6578]

29:20 This is Kibo, Uktabi Prince's backstory actually