The Magician’s Twin, with David Berlinski, Stephen Meyer, and James Orr | Uncommon Knowledge

Recorded on May 26, 2024, in Fiesole, Italy.
In his 1943 book The Abolition of Man, C. S. Lewis wrote: “The serious magical endeavor and the serious scientific endeavor are twins: One was sickly and died, the other strong and throve. But they were twins. They were born of the same impulse.” In this Uncommon Knowledge with Peter Robinson, mathematician and philosopher David Berlinski, intelligent design advocate Stephen Meyer, and Associate Professor of Philosophy of Religion at Cambridge University, James Orr explore the parallels between scientific and magical endeavors, referencing C. S. Lewis's notion that both were born from the same impulse, with one thriving and the other fading. They also explore the historical relationship between science and religion, noting how early scientists such as Newton and Galileo saw their work as uncovering divine order, in contrast with the more secular views of modern scientists such as Steven Weinberg and Stephen Hawking. The discussion also reveals deep philosophical and historical insights into the evolution of scientific thought and its complex relationship with materialism and religion.
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The opinions expressed are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Hoover Institution or Stanford University.
© 2024 by the Board of Trustees of Leland Stanford Junior University.

[@MasonHerrick]

"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass, God is waiting for you." -Heisenberg

[@carollew8655]

👍Echoing Francis Bacon before him.

[@renacesar060575]

The ability of Peter Robinson to provoke and let the interviewees shine is amazing. He’s capable of sustaining this high level dialogue with elegance discretion and not trying to steal the spotlights. This is the finest channel of KZbin.

[@garygrelli5706]

I came across Berlinski about 12 years ago when I read The Devil’s Delusion. I was in awe of that book and the author! Then I discovered Meyer’s books. What treats!

[@thedynamicsolo4232]

Praise God!!! They made us better souls because of their acumen.

[@WayneLynch69]

ESPECIALLY compared to Dawkins'. The consistent lack of rigor in Dawkins is illustrated perfectly in the first paragraph of Chapter 4. He laments Fred Hoyle's observation: "life beginning naturally on earth is as likely as a hurricane going through a junkyard constructing a fully functioning Boeing 747". Dawkins "refutes" it saying Hoyle fails to appreciate the power of natural selection. Natural selection NEVER, EVER applies to the inanimate. "Numerous, successive, slight modification" is Darwin's definition in Chapter 6 of "On the Origin..." There is no definition more in explicit conflict with the 2nd law possible. e 2nd Law of Thermodynamics NEVER, NEVER allows numerous successive slight modification in inanimacy.. Dawkins makes his elision without address or seeming recognition. He loves his characterization that, "those whom dispute the veracity of Evolution are lying, ignorant or insane". In provable fact, those claiming life originated through natural selection are too stupid to insult. Below are actual accomplished biologists, 2 Nobel laureates and Craig Venter ALL SAYING; "it is impossible that humans will EVER know life's origin". Dawkins sits mute/deaf/sub-moronic. WUT?!? It's his entire sine qua non. He has achieved nothing EVER in cell research, DNA, medicine.... His ONLY claim to his 'Cat reat fame & fortune is, "discernible abiogenesis". '

[@Gozzillacia]

This internet, is golden age: - to be able to just listen and absorb, as much as I can, of these great issues, so marvellously elucidated is such a joy. For an aging man, who left education at 15, who still feels like that 15 year old boy - what a joy. I thank you gentlemen.

[@candidlens]

Well said.

[@rajkumarrajpoot2637]

P

[@khanumkazmi6659]

😊Fggffffgffffgfgfggfffgffffg😊ffffgf😊gg😊😊fggfgggfgfff😊f😊f😊fffffgfg😊😊ffff😊fffgffffffffgff😊fffffffffg😊😊?f

[@khanumkazmi6659]

Rfdff😊😊f😊f😊fffgffd😊😊😊fffffgdfdfffgd😊

[@khanumkazmi6659]

😊Ffdffgfdfffffffgfffdfffgf😊​

[@PatrickBateman191]

What an immense privilege, pleasure and joy to suddenly see appear on KZbin a new episode of Uncommon Knowledge taped in Fiesole Italy, with Drs. Berlinski, Meyers and Orr and the extremely talented and sharp Peter Robinson. I have yet to see a show that surpasses this in intelligence, dignity, respect of the audience and class. Once you go back to ordinary KZbin channels you immediately notice how deeply our society has sunk. Congratulations “Mille volte”. “Pomeriggio” Peter and “formaggio” 😉

[@ltrzepalko]

I feel priviliged to be able to listen to this conversation. What a ride!

[@masterninja4010]

Me too

[@matthewvelazquez2013]

Me too.

[@dillpickler5700]

I remember when Uncommon Knowledge had Meyer and Berlinski on a few years ago. That was a great interview and so was this one!

[@bumpkinskill]

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." -- Psalm 19:1

[@katlehomahlophe6513]

Indeed. We cannot explain Nature without Christ.

[@frankschattner7640]

Col. 1:17. He is before all things and in Him ALL things hold together!

[@daviddegrote-ms8td]

its THE FIRMAMENT and that is THE DOME ; genesis 1.7 buy you a KJV the bible is a FLAT EARTH book with 300 verses in it

[@masterninja4010]

Meyer is like the Michael Jordan among the other players who are just along for the ride. Awesome conversation dazzling to the mind. Thanks, Peter, for inviting such good men.

[@GreatBehoover]

Meyer's intellectual honesty is his willingness to deep dive into all aspects that many of the others disallow themselves to experience. Berlinski obviously hits the wall of God and backs away and squirms his mind away from it. The pain atheists have endured is happily blamed on God. They cannot fathom the contradiction of their false assignment of blame...but persist in it. This leads to their tossing away God...without realizing the flaws of their own illogical assumptions that they could somehow matter... or that their mind is somehow trustworthy. Both illogical in the outworking of atheism.

[@dougsmith3427]

Pl

[@cloud1stclass372]

David Berlinski is a legend.

[@Klklk181]

David Berlinski After obtaining his Ph.D., Berlinski was a research assistant in the Department of Biology at Columbia University.[8] He has taught philosophy, mathematics and English at Stanford University, Rutgers, the City University of New York and the Université de Paris. He was a research fellow at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA) in Austria and the Institut des Hautes Études Scientifiques (IHES) in France.[citation needed]

[@candidlens]

@@cloud1stclass372 yes, his subtlety of insight, very often both fun and illuminating.

[@Melkor3001]

I used to love Berlinski and he still makes me laugh but nowadays he just seems to enjoy playing the devils advocate imp, regardless of his own thoughts and opinions. He contradicts his previous opinions constantly, depending on who he’s with. Still love the man! Just wish he’d be more sincere. He just enjoys throwing the cat amongst the pigeons I guess😂

[@markmcflounder15]

Yeah, he does seem to enjoy playing the contrarian & be a bit iconoclastic

[@amycraig3956]

My thoughts as well!

[@garygrelli5706]

I think he is so much more intelligent and educated- particularly in mathematics- that he can’t resist. My own knowledge of mathematics limits my ability to understand today’s physics. The two seem to become one in the quantum world.

[@markayzenshtadt7200]

David Berlinsky is a man of style.

[@tomschneider7555]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pKDNZaOegrlshacsi=hXF6YrUNOm6OLFc5 You mean this style? Berlinsky in a jeans jacket

[@Haggis9]

Great tie!

[@johnpatmos1722]

He's rude and full of himself.

[@cptrikester2671]

I like Berlinski, but as much as he is a critical thinker, he avoids critical conclusions. He enjoys the intellectual jousting a little too much.

[@thomaskenyon9240]

I have been waiting for Uncommon Knowledge to flesh out this largely ignored area of knowledge. Thank you so very much!!!

[@grahamcombs4752]

Where has Uncommon Knowledge been? David Berlinski AND Stephen Meyer! Worth the wait.

[@22julip]

I half like Dr Berlinski, he’s smart he knows history , but he doesn’t take a stand , he likes to play both sides He’ll praise Myer to a point Then backs off He says a lot but believes very little Yes no or maybe ? If you say maybe a lot , and very rarely says yes or no . One might say prudent , maybe cynical , or doesn’t want to take a chance loosing his scientific objectivity, reputation !!! Money !!!! I report you decide .

[@rareword]

@@22julip Great mind but big ego.

[@VishalJadon-em8no]

​@😢😮 0:20 0:20 rareword

[@KalishKushwaha]

फण

[@nafisahmadkhan1102]

Ttttttyttttt😢​@@22julip😂

[@SemperInFaecibus]

Superb. Thank you Peter for bringing together these three intellectual Titans. I've just finished Stephen's book "Signature in the Cell" which shows in great detail the difficulties of a materialistic evolutionary explanation of abiogenesis and cellular complexity. I'll definitely be getting the other tomes that you referenced by these authors. In a world of woke drivel, what a delight to hear clear, respectful and insightful debate on difficult and deep issues.

[@dahof2789]

Titans?! 😂😂😂

[@jr.6199]

Isn't Woke, an awareness of social/cultural issues, primarily the prejudice and discrimination of minorities, especially blacks in the US? I rarely hear anything "woke", except when the opposite appears; bigotry, hatred or discriminatory labeling being mentioned or as a preemptive argument, like now. If you're world is drivel, expand it, travel, change the channel or try a different book.

[@DiscoveryScienceChannel]

Also worth watching. "The Magician's Twin: C.S. Lewis and the Case Against Scientism," leading scholars explore Lewis's prophetic warnings about the abuse of science and how Lewis's concerns are increasingly relevant for us today. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIHIqn2sjbppbs0&pp=ygUTdGhlIG1hZ2luaWFuJ3MgdHdpbg%3D%3D

[@kristinjones4739]

The fact that David only has access to his own subjective first-person experience (i.e. the fact that nobody else can inhabit his mind, and he has access only to his own mind, not anyone else's) is exactly the rub for materialism and exactly why the mind/body problem does belong in any conversation about materialism. None of the materialistic tools of the natural sciences could give me first-person access to his first-person experience. David's subjectivity is outside the even possibly measurable world. The fact that intelligence is measurable does not weaken this point at all: there is a difference between intelligence (which is clearly mechanizable) and first-person subjectivity.

[@superjuddy]

A truly unique comment in a sea of bland bait-and-hook reactionary takes. I am speaking from a unstudied perspective on this topic, but my take on first-person subjectivity is that not only is your position correct, there is more to it. There is a realm of the mind we lack discussion regarding, and it is the creative aspect. There's much to be said for someone who can learn to copy Stevie Ray Vaughan's guitar technique, but there's much more to be said for his technically lacking early appearances which showed the ability to leap creatively to areas outside of the conventional system. I'm not sure how to label this concept, but hopefully this example can get my point across. Thank you so much for sharing your intellect here Ms. Jones.

[@mikhailfranco]

Yet. You say "none ... could..". I say "none ... can today". Wait 50 years and we can check back on those statements.

[@THEMAX00000]

Absolutely brilliant. I would love to see Dr. Berlinski on Rogan. I think he would blow Joe Rogan’s mind. Always a pleasure to see these men speak

[@a.x.marcus4627]

Peter Robinson is a phenomenal host. Thank you for this delightful hour.

[@descartesdonkey4291]

heads heads heads ..intellectual fumbling and words words words...an outside discussion of no value whatsoever....especially if a human being is alive within them

[@KaluSingh-mv6ju]

Pp FriFt ❤​@@descartesdonkey4291

[@Eternal1811]

This host/interviewer is absolutely brilliant on his own standing. His quick witted responses and extremely active engagement make this discussion so much more interesting to listen to. I loved this! Please host more of these events and upload them!

[@georgem5589]

Peter Robinson is great in his own right. For those who don't recall, Peter penned Reagan's Iconic words.."Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" (Presidents used to hire competent people to their cabinets).

[@user-ou8yi3zz5d]

I have missed these talks and this series. Let get back to normal.

[@matttedford7017]

To have such prolific minds discussing such profound questions, a mere hour simply isnt enough. If Joe Rogan can discuss aliens for 4 hours, i guarantee there will be an audience for a similarly longform discussion on the topics here. Please expand your discussion times. Consciousness needs it!

[@marbanak]

Great to see Dave Berlihnski again. Stephen Meyer is always terrific. James Orr is a welcome surprise to me. Hope to see him elsewhere.

[@bobbyologun1517]

Not if you have a basic grasp of biology

[@steveflorida5849]

​@@bobbyologun1517do you believe in the science Fiction hypothesis Abiogenesis?

[@sharonhepburn8966]

He was part of a panel in Jordan Peterson’s investigation into Exodus ( On the Daily Wire). I am in awe of his intellect and his apparent l lack of conceit.

[@agiantpear7744]

The elation of catching a new episode with these guests!! ❤🎉

[@viniciuswinterviana2]

Simply the best interview program!

[@royolstad8532]

I can't remember when I've enjoyed a podcast as much as that!

[@joelsweeney4024]

My gosh! Another one of the incredible intelligent life & Darwinism conversations from Uncommon knowledge! I can't wait!

[@leoteng1640]

What a beautiful closing By Dr Belinski. Our minds is finite. Our knowledge is finite. But when we have eternity, God has the opportunity to teach us everything we want to known just what we need to know. A theistic view to science undergirded by faith in God is way more expansive than an atheistic view. God bless.

[@jr.6199]

that is a big leap of faith, from their discussion to yours... They never said finite, nor suggest an all knowing, all controlling God must be present.

[@a.s.clifton544]

What a beautiful tie Dr. Berlinski is wearing. With all that is wrong with the world, it is necessary to my peace of mind to return to undergraduate arguments, often heated but never personal, that carried on, as Mr. Robinson implied, until last call at one’s favorite pub. There is nothing that a materialist can point to which explains how I can sit here today, crippled, in constant pain, and remember my 20s when everything was possible. I can see, smell, hear some of those days so clearly that I might be Reeve’s character in *Somewhere in Time*.

[@thegeneralist7527]

The tie reflects his mind.

[@jeffnicolo6286]

Wonderfully done (witty, stimulating, and making the interviewing high wire look easy) , per usual Mr. Robinson.

[@user-ly6vk6cx1h]

I really enjoy listening to you gentlemen but sometimes ya'll make my mind hurt. Keep up the good work!

[@tau7260]

These are always such great discussions; thank you. Dr. Berlinski (46:00) gave a great response when he said"...the only one I can see with a first person subjective experience is me." Then I remembered a line from St. John Henry Newman, “There are two, and two only self-evident beings; myself, and my Creator.”

[@izakjoubert1360]

phenomenal and impactful discussion / debate. Intellectuals of such stature should be broadly published . thank you Mr Robinson, excellent interview as allways

[@brianmiller5207]

I greatly appreciated the thoughtful analysis of the rise and fall of materialism.

[@jimmyintheswamp]

Wonderful job asking meaningful questions and holding the conversation.

[@timorean320]

Whenever I start to think Im smart, I watch these to humble myself.

[@stevenschuster]

Please make this show a weekly thing. Pretty please..

[@nb7524]

Living in this time of the overwhelming promotion of all things cruel, absurd, obscene, distasteful and dishonest, this conversation is like opening the windows on a beautiful Spring morning clearing the room of the strong stench of decay. As a Christian who is endeavoring to be harmoniously robust spiritually and logically, I send to each of you gentlemen a heartfelt thank you! I truly appreciate you providing this intriguing and intellectually fulfilling conversation!

[@durhamgrigg3125]

THANK YOU. THIS IS THE BEST PODCAST YOU've done!!!!❤❤❤❤

[@davidlasoff8261]

Delightful and enlightening wherein we learned so much as to the evolution of scientific-philosophical thinking. Indeed, God has returned to the conversation in a highly constructive way. Thank you all, great thinkers and host!

[@sharonfarrelly7146]

This is a brilliant conversation..one of the best..big questions have been answered ..kind of..Utterly brilliant…I have always been a non believer in So called god…but these conversations that are asking philosophical questions I am very interested in..I have always been sciences based..as in Big Bang theory..DNA…so on..but what happened before big bang has always seemed very interesting…see that theology is now being thought as an answer is very interesting and something that really needs to be looked at …. The West needs this kind of attention to thought..the times we are currently in is and will totally test us..due to the appalling political global governance that is so corrupt….Humans need bigger questions 💯..brilliant needed conversation and debate ..

[@coolhandphilip]

I love Beelinski's mind. Right out of the gate: "Materialism" and the paradox of quantity. My spirit literally soars at David's insights.

[@leahhanderson3737]

Thank you! I have listened to this over and over. I hear something new every time.

[@mmelau-deladetesailleurs2001]

This is so marvellous! A Bugatti, and Maserati, a Mclaren and a Mercedes walked into a bar...

[@C1skt1]

This is so very precious to everyone and anyone. Please do more of these

[@robertboothe3405]

Really appreciate the intellectual honesty!

[@michaelmannion1963]

A absolute Masterclass from Peter Robinson in the art of 'Interview-Discussion'

[@JonathanMcLatchie]

Wonderful discussion with great guests! It is refreshing to listen to the intellectual clarity brought to the table by Berlinski, Meyer and Orr. I had to chuckle at Berlinski's comment in response to Robinson's question at 16:08: "Who needs God, correct?" Berlinski: "Yes." Robinson: "Care to elaborate?" Berlinski: "No." Classic Berlinski.

[@rozbanoo81]

climax of the discussion was!

[@Archie460]

Wonderful debate all-round thankyou, full of tongue and cheek and sharp intellect

[@lebenergy247]

This is a crazy beautiful discussion! What a fantastic fantastic conversation

[@mikeshahan1960]

It's such a pleasure to sit in on discussions like this.

[@thomasbayer1843]

Great discussion and great moderating! Thanks Peter.

[@durhamgrigg3125]

Love the off take, Peter!!!!! Thank you all and especially you David. That final quote of Sir Isaac Newton from your book 'Newton' Gift'. is one I will take with me on my own personal search for truths!❤

[@vivianoosthuizen8990]

Thank you I was just saying to my daughter I am so fed up with everyone just talking about philosophy of old instead of modern philosophy of our time.

[@brandonmacey964]

this was incredible.

[@thewealthofnations4827]

Wonderful show. Well done to all. Blessing and well wishes to men and all listening. Hoover keep up the great work. Peter, always a pleasure and thanks for the blooper at the end.

[@user-qo4cj2zh2v]

Thank you gentlemen for that wonderful discussion

[@NornIronMan.]

David Berlinski what a legend. Though his outfit this time now quite as cool as the previous video. I'd like to get his new book.

[@mmelau-deladetesailleurs2001]

James Orr is very witty! Love it !

[@paulmilligan3007]

An amazing hour with great minds. No one equals Peter Robinson in his ability to stimulate, poke and prod to get such profoundly powerful responses.

[@302indian]

Right? Almost as good as Piers Morgan.

[@logic_matters]

In the great words of Austin Powers, "Oh no I've gone cross-eyed."

[@adeptusjoker7176]

Berlinski's a funny guy. Perhaps a little turbulent in this exchange; I could almost feel Peter Robinson getting frustrated with Berlinski's nigh-solipsism.

[@swissgirlie1]

Love Robinson!!!!

[@brocktoon8]

Thank god for this show!!!! So refreshing!!!!

[@aeiouaeiou100]

This is an absolute masterpiece

[@ceh5526]

Peter, looking at your brow from time to time, you certainly earned your money with this episode! Superb - thank you

[@scottdetter]

Awesome! I have never seen DB looking so dapper.

[@floydfanboy2948]

Thank you so much! Big fan of these discussions.

[@Billb9I3]

Very good

[@warwolf6359]

Excellent! Thank you!

[@echa3132]

So refreshing to hear these intellectual thinkers discuss the origin of life but I wonder if they ever thought who or what gave them life to think and analyze the multitudinal realms of materialism, mathematical explanation of DNA etc, to think about the “meaning of life”? It feels like human quibble about what to eat as sides to the main entree. God exists. Good and Evil exists. We cannot explain because we are not the Creator. We humans have been set aside different from other creatures because we were given the gift to think beyond survival needs and can choose to accept or reject God’s omnipresence. We were given both the animalistic body that rots away after death and also the “spiritual soul” which endures and inspires other humans. Whether God created other creatures elsewhere in the universe similar to us is debate able but here on this planet Earth, we were created by God to live as good stewards of earth’s bounty and live in harmony as taught by Him.

[@EyeByBrian]

Sounds as though your intellectual life ended with Sunday School.

[@juvalue_]

So good!

[@kateknowles8055]

Steven Meyer is erudite and easy to learn from. I only into the first16 minutes of this, so I have not formed all my opinion yet. I am quite aged so need to take inormation in slowly.

[@steveflorida5849]

The Limitations of Materialism.

[@davidscottboring940]

Listening to these three men discuss matters that tower far above pedestrian thought is so humbling. I could spend months just trying to comprehend their arguments on one topic; and then to end with David's quotation about Newton's reflection at his death, that we are like boys playing at the seashore with the unexplored ocean stretching before us puts into context the vastness of Creation. God smiles, and we are just guessing.

[@rh001YT]

Bravo!

[@frankschattner7640]

fantastic . . . . . as usual!

[@ProfAbbas-sx2tn]

Your discussion is very interesting and imbued with a lot of knowledge. I welcome your subject as well as your discussion. I love your substantive arguments to promote the ideas. We the people of a country of darkness in knowledge hardly have the opportunity to come across such facilities. Once again I welcome your discussion.

[@luluwebdesign7854]

You just restored my hope in humanity.

[@jeffteza8644]

Great stuff.

[@theomnisthour6400]

The real Messiah endorses this discussion whole-heartedly

[@larrywilliams5490]

Gentlemen.....that was extremely stimulating to my brain/mind.So much so that my Tinnitus dramatically abated. 👏

[@markmcflounder15]

"With the exception of the proposition you just uttered" D.Berlinski I had laugh at such a subtle almost whispered response to the contradiction previously given

[@jesuslovesaves2682]

Pride of man - Free will can allow anyone to believe anything. From Laodicea Church of the lay people with God knocking on the door with its wealth but blindness To the Harlot of Rev 17/18 with its wealth and, "I sit enthroned as queen. I am not a widow; I will never mourn." To finally enthroning man as God on a global level Rev 13 Surely, God saw this coming. Maranatha EDIT: BTW Newton spent a lot of time reading the Scriptures and their surrounding texts, especially Revelation, Daniel and the prophetic books.

[@oldterry9356]

Please see “The Myth of Religious Neutrality” by Roy A Clouser, (from the amazon blurb) - Written for undergraduates, the educated layperson, and scholars in fields other than philosophy, The Myth of Religious Neutrality offers a radical reinterpretation of the general relations between religion, science, and philosophy. 😊

[@TheEncounterGODWorshipChannel]

Amazing content! A gem to enjoy this contemplation on existence.

[@user-we2qv1cx6x]

Fascinating interview, thank you

[@stevenjacus6136]

Truth as a consensus of the senses!

[@ausgezeichnet877]

Pls can we get more discussions with Dr Berlinski and Dr Meyer.

[@burnhamsghost8044]

Berlinski: sharp as a tack.

[@ReyesDChapa-cp1nv]

Berlinsky mind is still brilliant for his 80s!

[@TPH310]

Brilliant conversation

[@grahamcombs4752]

I'll have to watch this again...

[@diycraftq8658]

What brilliant minds and if via the three of them they are 1% right we are good

[@StereoSpace]

Wonderful program. Interesting guests. Fascinating discussion.

[@Haggis9]

Thanks guys. Very stimulating.

[@johnbrown4568]

Wonderful 👍

[@marshalbass7098]

Three incredible brains

[@LatomaSilva]

That was illuminating 😮

[@martincull4914]

This is truly a star team!

[@daneracamosa]

How much fun was that?😊