The Missing 411 Mystery Has A Solution. You Won't Like It.

[@seattlegrrlie]

I've been an avid hiker for over 30 years in the Pacific Northwest. All the time people go out without checking weather reports, in the wrong clothing, and without supplies. I've done search and rescue, people end up far off trail, dehydrated and confused. It's easy to get disoriented - even experienced hikers get lost. Even experienced hikers die from dehydration, unexpected heart problems, exposure, and falls. The woods might appear like an amusement park... But they're dangerous and should be treated with respect.

[@mb-3faze]

My father was on the mountain rescue team in west Scotland near Ben Nevis - not a difficult walk up and down, not very far and about 4000 vertical feet. Of all years and call outs he went on, his team never brought anyone down alive.

[@xpndblhero5170]

Yeah but that leaves a body or footprints all over the place but most of these just disappeared.... No traces and that is really weird.

[@adamh9660]

@@xpndblhero5170 not really. you get disoriented and wander so far in the wrong direction that you're just never found. Plus you're dehydrated so you get desperate for water and rush up to a river to get a drink. But then since you're disoriented and weak from hunger or thrist whatever you fall in and bam. you're dead and washed out to the ocean. Then your foot decomposes off and you get added to the mysterious sneaker cases eventually

[@applegal3058]

I grew up around wilderness and barrens. My home area I'm comfortable going into the woods and knowing where I am. Living in Central Newfoundland now, and I won't go far into the woods alone for fear of getting lost, since I don't have experience with the landmarks and terrain. I think a lot of people are not aware of the dangers, and wander into the Forest without realizing the real danger. It's important for people to share these stories so people can plan their hikes properly and be safe.

[@lindraeson]

People get lost in woods they grew up near and should know by heart. One time I was mushroom hunting and took a slightly different path than usual, also had a person who went out to the same woods more often than me. We walked out at a completely different exit point near a different village quite far away. 😅

[@veraikon25]

I've been obsessed with Missing 411 for years. I've gone over every possible explanation, from crazy to crazier. But no explanation is closer to the truth than "enter the wild, reenter the food chain."

[@PetarPopara]

Which is not to say that in the society we're 100% outside the food chain...

[@veraikon25]

@@PetarPoparabut it’s much, much less likely 😂

[@apopheniamania]

Also those 411 stories omit pertinent information. He leaves out certain things to intrigue and trick people into thinking something nefarious happened when it’s often that they underestimate nature.

[@Uncanny_Mountain]

Yes, ten thousand witness reports of a 10ft hominid is irrelevant Aren't we all just so objective 😂

[@oldmech619]

There was even a tv news investigation into how many people were dying in which hospitals. When they were counting terminal patients. That damaged a lot of hospitals trying to help people die a peaceful way. 24:31

[@zacharia1446]

I have a 2 year old and am speaking from experience: THEY LET A 2 YEAR OLD WALK ANYWHERE ALONE???

[@Bow-to-the-absurd]

Its deeply suspicious

[@rocketamadeus3730]

If I recall the clothes he was supposedly wearing when he disappeared were later found in their house. Pretty sure he never went to that park.

[@____________838]

Probably because they committed foul play…

[@douglasneusch4158]

i thought the same thing. Who takes a toddler out in the woods in the first place? And in the second place who puts them in the care of an old man who is sick in body and mind?

[@1pcfred]

Yeah that whole we went camping thing a lot of times it is family.

[@Cedartreetechnologies]

Lifelong outdoorsman, here. Eagle scout. Former scoutmaster. Training coordinator for out local SAR for four years in Western Oregon. Mountaineer for 15 years. Wilderness hunter. It is so, so easy for a normal person to become hopelessly lost. And don't count on SAR resources to help. We blew it a lot on searches. I always go with current maps, a good compass, basic gear, and a plan. I have still been misplaced for uncomfortable periods.

[@SongsOfRelief]

Misplaced. I like that. Sounds like something P. F. McManus would say.

[@Kerpeles]

How good navigation aid is sun and a clock? I test myself quite often if I can tell directions based on sun. When it’s not visible things get a lot more difficult.

[@cornstalks4122]

@@Kerpeles The sun isn't exactly an exact compass, and being off by a few degrees can get you very off track. How long the sun stays in the skies varies greatly as well (at least in the higher latitudes). You need a real (and calibrated) compass and a map, and somewhere to orient yourself on the map from (a high location, preferably seeing some kind of landmark). Of course it can help if it's your absolute last option, like if you know which direction the ocean is and you're close enough to get there, but it won't really do you much good unless you know where you are and which direction you need to go. Most people don't know off the top of their head which cardinal direction they veered of the track in, so it may be hard to get back.

[@BrandonHeat243]

It also can be remarkably hard to find people once they get lost. Personal story: A few years back my stepdad's father got lost in the mountains. He was a lifelong outdoorsman himself but he had sadly gone senile and he just wandered off into the mountains one day. Search teams went out to look for him and it took them over a year to find his remains. And it wasn't like some big national park. It was just an area of a few miles in the mountains.

[@SongsOfRelief]

@BrandonHeat243 my goodness

[@anna9072]

There is really no such thing as “thoroughly searched”. I get irritated when I see the stock footage of searchers that they use as background for so many missing persons videos - people in hi-vis vests walking through what appears to be a tree farm, with no undergrowth, about 10 feet away from each other. In reality, the searchers have to be spread out as much as possible because there’s so much ground to cover, the terrain is uneven, and it’s rare that you have a clear view of the ground anywhere other than right at your feet. It’s practically impossible to cover an area so thoroughly that nothing could be missed.

[@awesomenasavideos1499]

I was just coming here to say that clip around the 5 min mark must be one of the the most used stock footage ever on YT 😆

[@stephenhurd1489]

You are so right! I grew up on a mountain in the center of a large state park. There's 6 homes on private land that never sold out to the state In the 20s and 30s when the CCC was building parks. I knew every foot of that 30k acres and still got lost in the dark. Every search and rescue I participated in, and there where many, all I found was lost fire fighters and national guard! The undergrowth in Appalachia is unforgiven. The mountain laurel is worse than south east Asian jungles! Then there's the cliff edges that started on edge of the tickets.

[@anna9072]

@@stephenhurd1489 yup, I made a comment on a post about how easy it was to get turned around in the woods, and someone answered with “oh, no, it’s perfectly simple! All you have to do is just follow your footprints back!”

[@stephenhurd1489]

That's actually what I was commenting on. (*ゝω･*)

[@JesmondBeeBee]

Look how long it took earlier this year to find Jay Slater, a young British tourist in Tenerife, who appears to have fallen into a ravine and died. It took almost a month to find his body, even with an intense search. And even though it was quite close to the last mobile phone mast his phone pinged, and in an area that had already been covered by searchers. It's just really hard to find a person who is incapacitated, so can't do anything to signal their position. A body, even harder, as thermal imaging isn't an option then.

[@placeseer2342]

At the end of the day, a house fire taught me a lot about how we perceive time in retrospect. My roommate said he only walked away from the cooling heat gun for maximum a few minutes, but my neighbors driveway footage across the street showed that he didn’t come back out to look for it until a whole 10-15 minutes had passed. He wasn’t intentionally lying, he admitted he had caused the fire on accident, but he really believed he hadn’t walked away for that long at all. It’s crazy how much perceived danger effects our concept of time, so it isn’t strange to me at all that so many missing 411 stories start with “I swear I only looked away for a second and they were gone”.

[@donutcat5535]

Yeah, if you leave, say, a boiling pot, every second your gone you’re thinking about that pot and worrying about it boiling over. If you start a pot and put it on high heat, you’re not gonna feel as pressed for time because ‘it’s gonna take a minute to boil’.

[@RogueReplicant]

Good point. Parents lie to avoid responsibility but are also terrible at estimating the time they leave their children unattended.

[@kwullums]

i was walking through a river when i was 6... rivers man

[@mattmarzula]

​@@kwullumssame.

[@mattmarzula]

My brother let a dog out and when I came home, it was just running around the yard with no leash. I asked what he was doing and why. He claimed the dog was only out for five minutes while he was working in the garage on his bike. I checked my surveillance. The dog was running around for 45 minutes and ran out in front of the bus making it swerve and hop the curb. I mentioned it and he denied it. I showed him the video and he still denied it. I explained the problem, showed him the beginning and the end timestamps. He finally admitted it but, wouldn't apologize. Some people.

[@Nikolai_The_Crazed]

Someone once overlaid a map of these disappearances with a map of recently found, unmarked caves. It certainly helps explain some of the disappearances. You step off the trail to take a leak, fall through a small hole you didn’t see, and end up in a massive, flooded, unmarked cave system. Unless someone finds that cave and explores it, they’ll likely never find you.

[@luddity]

Did they find any bodies in those caves?

[@matheussanthiago9685]

@@luddity extremely hard to go on inspecting caves in search for bodies you might just add another one to the count

[@Nikolai_The_Crazed]

@ I mean, if it’s flooded there’s flowing water, which means you’ll get swept deeper in after a while. So they might not find you then. But yeah, people have died in unmarked caves. Some fell in by mistake. Some found one and decided to explore it, only to wind up falling somewhere treacherous. There was one weird case where a person who’d been missing for fifty years was found frozen in an unmarked cave. He died of a drug overdose, and is body just sat there. They had to identify him by dental records. Whether or not someone is found, It really depends on the cave and where they wound up. There are caves that are basically underground rivers, and if you get caught up in it, there’s little chance anyone would find your remains. Same if you fall down a narrow passage and get wedged somewhere. It’s not easy to get too, so you’re unlikely to be found. And as you decay, you fall apart, dislodge and fall deeper, making it even more unlikely they’ll find you. And even if someone does find your remains, they can’t always get you back out. A couple of people have fallen into caves, and gotten wedged where they can’t remove them. So they just seal that branch of the cave to act as a tomb, and prevent anyone else from falling in. Caves are really dangerous. People falling or wandering into caves doesn’t explain all disappearance, but you can bet that at least a few people have gotten lost, and wandered or fell into a cave.

[@NeithanDiniem]

@@luddity In those caves unknown, but just look at the story of Sergei Kozeev. It does happen from time to time.

[@jayt9608]

​@NeithanDiniem I was thinking of another caving accident in Utah. The man took a wrong turn into a tunnel in which he could not turn and kept crawling forward until he took a downward slope that dropped off. Sadly he died of asphyxia upside down unable to ever be retrieved from the cave. The cave was officially closed and sealed becoming his permanent tomb.

[@UrzaWeatherlight]

The drowning deaths at beaches analogy was the crystallization of the opinions I've had on the subject for awhile but never been able to put into words, so thankyou. I've never understood why peoples response to, "When people go to these remote places, alone, and frequently without proper gear, and frequently without telling people where they are going, they disappear" is to say "Something strange and conspiratorial is going on" and not "yeah that makes sense."

[@bobdobsin6216]

They've got 16th century witch trials brain.

[@Bassfishing1987]

I've lived in the Appalachian mountains my whole life and have always been an avid outdoors lover and I happen to be surrounded by several National parks. The Missing 411 is so popular here and everyone seems to believe they know the absolute truth behind it, whether that be Sasquatch, UFOs or the Gov. Now personally I never paid much attention to any of the conspiracies and always had the belief there were explanations behind disappearances especially with the amount of caves around, It's common hearing stories of people with little knowledge of the area losing their way from a trail and falling into one but I personally had an experience that just shows how fast it can happen. I was fishing at a river near where I live that is one of my favorite spots, for 22 years I've roamed the area's banks and waters and I felt like I knew the mountain like the back of my hand. So one weekend the water levels were down to where you could walk along the rocks and have the ability to reach more fishing spots, so as I was alone and walking along with rods in my hand and a tackle backpack on, I took a step to my right up onto the grassy bank, next thing I knew my foot gave way and the rest of my body went tumbling into a massive hole that practically ate my body up, note I'm 6'4" and this hole nearly went over my head. It was completely covered by grass and never in a million years would I have thought that it was there especially with how much of my life I've spent in the area. After the sudden shock wore off and I realized I was okay and didn't sustain any injuries, I was able to climb out, thankfully it wasn't any deeper or an actual cave but after that experience I kept thinking about all those missing people and just how easily and quickly circumstances can change for the worse.

[@JohnJacobSchmidtt]

Oh yeah a child probably wouldn't have been able to climb out of that hole

[@androd-87]

Wow. What a shock that must’ve been! I stepped in a hole covered with grass and broke my foot. The hole was shallow but it had tall grass in it that matched the surrounding. There was no way to tell there was a hole. Luckily, you kept calm and dealt with the situation.

[@scottys1423]

Most cases probably have a simple explanation. But what about the cases where they find remains like 40 miles from where they disappeared? There have been many very strange cases that defy rational explanation.

[@MyRegardsToTheDodo]

@@scottys1423 You can also easily explain these cases. It is really easy to lose your way in the woods, where you have almost no point of orientation. Especially if you're lost for more than a day or two you can easily cover that distance, going deeper and deeper into the woods, while still thinking that you're on your way out. Or you might walk in circles without realizing. In thick woods you might have problems seeing something that's 60 feet in front of you. The deeper you get into these woods, the less likely it is to stumble onto a trail. Then you eventually die either from starvation, or because you ate something out of desparation that wasn't edible, or you die of thirst or an infection.

[@jthepickle7]

East Tennessee here. We've got a hole about a yard around and deep, far up on the property. We joke about it. It has no reason to be there and is abrupt - flat and firm all around then...hole. One day the Beagle got out and went missing overnight. My wife, with a stroke of intuition, thought to check 'the hole'. Sure enough, there was Benny at the bottom! Out of all the many places Benny could have set a foot... It took a long ladder and a rope to get the cold and hungry dog outa that mysterious hole. (now we have it covered...a covered hole out in the woods where no one goes)

[@litning123]

I was a summer lifeguard for the NPS; best job I ever had. One time another lifeguard and interpreter joined me for a hike on the Appalachian Trail. We came across three kids, two boys with their older sister (she was about 12 yo). They said their father dropped them off and they hiked in one direction while their father and little brother planned to drive a distance, then hike back in the other direction, meet somewhere in the middle, camp for the night, then hike out in the morning. They never met. It had rained overnight and the 3 kids were in the initial stages of hypothermia. We warmed them as much as we could, told them they might have bypassed their father and brother on the trail, so we would hike with them along the trail, then go to the nearest ranger station if we didn’t meet the father. Pre-cellphone days. We arrived at a station while their father and little brother were at another station, having just reported the missing kids. We left the reunification to the rangers on duty and hiked back to our vehicle. Disaster averted this time, but… bad plan, dad!

[@amylamb3893]

Maybe he was trying to lose them, weird dad there.

[@AnotherAustin-z7b]

Definitely trying to ditch those kids "oh no they're lost! I left them with a 12 year old and brought my favorite with me for no reason instead of us all going together, idk what could have happened" I'm surprised he didn't go to jail, some woman got arrested recently for letting her son walk to the store by himself.

[@mattmarzula]

Good on you.

[@mattmarzula]

​@@AnotherAustin-z7bNot likely when he ends up at a ranger station. Also, the 80's.

[@cherylmysliwczyk5716]

It sounds like the 80s. We were sent into the woods with lunch and told to come back later. You learn real quick to stay away from water. Being outside with frozen jeans taught me what chaffed mean. I also learned chap stick works everywhere.

[@MP-wg8pd]

They should be called National Wilds not National Parks because people think they are safe in a park.

[@rudeartichoke2567]

I think these Missing 411 shows may help people realize camping isn't the safest thing in the world to do.

[@tims8603]

@@rudeartichoke2567 Especially in a tent.

[@joekelly7505]

I guess not everybody had to sit through endless hours of Scouting lectures on wilderness safety.

[@davidkuhn3970]

So many people think that the wilderness is safe like Disneyland.

[@paulohagan3309]

Actually, that might be worth seriously thinking about. The kind of words used can evoke the [often wrong] feelings in people. Or could put in brackets at least, 'National Whatever Park [please remember this is a risky wilderness park. Please be careful]'. Yeah, some people take no notice but it might save a few lives.

[@goopah]

When I was a kid (not sure of my age then, maybe 10 or so, so roughly 1970), I got lost in the woods while camping with my family. After yelling for help and getting silence in return, the panic started to set in. Even at that age, I realized I was in trouble. But somehow, I recognized a few trees and rocks and found my way back. Turns out I had gone much further than I thought. I was only gone for a couple of hours, so I didn't even tell my family about it. I still haven't. I think I was embarrassed or something; I was enormously relieved when I re-entered our camping spot. Since then, I have huge respect for the wilderness, and still marvel at how huge the wilderness still is in spite of the Earth's massive population (which tends to gather in high-population areas, leaving vast swaths of emptiness).

[@AbsoluteSolver_98.7]

Oh, wow. I'm so glad you found your way back! /g I've gotten lost in the wilderness, but I had my mothers and sisters with me. I can't believe how terrifying it would be to get lost alone, even if it was just for a short period of time.

[@danielsdian]

I have a story to share! I'm from Brazil. I'm a former scout, got to our eagle scout equivalent etc. Some friends decided to go to a coastal region on vacations, its a beautiful place, in the middle of the Atlantic Jungle. We heard of a waterfall nearby and decided to go take a look. Somehow the trail markings were ripped off, but we could hear the waterfall nearby, so we continued down the trail. At some point, we got to the waterfall and there was this beautiful lake and we started to go down some rocks to get to it. All of the sudden, I realized that the rocks were too tall for us to get back up. It was 3pm and I knew we needed to go back because the trail took 3 hours. We had to get into the jungle and find a way up the river and to the trail. By the time we got back to the trail it was 10pm. We got so lost we didn't keep track of time. We had no cell coverage, so we couldn't call for help. The closest city was 150km away. Then we saw a Jaguar on the trail. It jumped in the trail and continued on, almost as if we weren't there. We found our car and got home about 3am. I'm never going into the jungle again.

[@garysorenson2124]

That was lame

[@bobbituka123]

Similar experience in the Muir Woods off trail in Marin. We tried not too panic but after hours of hiking and nervous joking, we ended up on the coastal road at night. Luckily a cab appeared out of nowhere and got us to my car. Scary experience.

[@GlobalSingeing]

Scary! Glad yall made it out safe

[@notahumanbeing6892]

@@garysorenson2124 why are you like this

[@aazhie]

You learned a valuable lesson, glad you made it back!!

[@Shackbanshee]

Fun story: my mom was a search and rescue coordinator for 19 years while I was growing up. I was raised in a rural forest and I got to be the search subject. Which means I got the bop off into the woods and let the poor saps look for me. I had to stay close to the trail and leave clear tracks in places. They never found me. I also learned how to throw off the bloodhounds. It is so easy to disappear in the wilderness. So easy.

[@98Zai]

How do you throw off the hounds? Walking in mud? Asking for a friend :P

[@falconquest2068]

@@98Zai Water.

[@Michael-sb8jf]

Easy Follow a stream Back track/ Create spur routes

[@HeyLeFay]

@@Michael-sb8jf Yep, which are all things a child or someone who’s lost would be prone to doing!

[@yallprettysus]

At least let them find you 1 time dude 😂 just for them to stay motivated

[@scienceface8884]

2 years old. Walking out of sight. In the wilderness. That's not a mystery, it's a tragic foregone conclusion.

[@justin80082]

I think there was something shady about the kid that went missing with his parents and Grandad, no way he just disappeared!

[@specialsause949]

I don't think the Missing 411 is all that mysterious but there are a few cases that makes you scratch your head. Don't go off of Paulidas' telling of the cases because he has several confirmation bias, whether on purpose or not. Check out the Lore Lodge if anyone is interested in the actual cases. They started the channel to prove the Missing 411 was real and they've actually come to the opposite conclusion.

[@chewy99.]

@@specialsause949I’ve seen his videos, he’s never said they weren’t real bruh what are you saying? He literally has videos talking about wild people being a possible cause for some of these. What do you mean “not real” anyways? I’m quite sure they all happened.

[@chrimony]

@@specialsause949 I lost some respect for the Lore Lodge after watching their video on some ghost house from the 1800s or something. Basically it was an old version of the Amityville Horror. Anyways, the whole thing was some ridiculous yarn based on a book, and if you did the tiniest bit of scratching, you'd find out the book was most likely written by a newspaper editor. But the Lore Lodge basically treated the book as gospel. The Missing Enigma is the best channel when it comes to looking into these cases. He even had a recent update on a case where he got a (belated) reply back from a freedom of information request.

[@another3997]

If what the parents said was true, then yes it is hardly surprising. However, I've never met a parent that would let a two year old out of their sight in the the local kids play park, never mind in an unfamiliar, wild woodland. Any right minded person would have escorted the child back, but it seems nobody else even saw the child with them on that trip. To me, something doesn't sound right with their story.

[@cousinmajin]

I went to Joshua Tree this summer with my partner and the park had awesome merch that had a skull design that said "Don't die today. Hike safely". They also had signs at trail heads saying stuff like "People have died in this park" that gave tips about dehydration, heat exposure, rattlesnakes, etc. We went on a hike over steep rocky terrain when it was over 100 degrees and brought hiking gear, tons of water, salty snacks, closed toe shoes, long sleeves and pants, all that. And nearly EVERY hiker we passed was unprepared in some way; shorts on, open toed shoes, asking us how long the trail was, seemingly shocked and scared when we pointed out a big chuckwalla (lizard) in the crack of a rock right next to them. It's really no wonder how people get messed up, man.

[@GrimJackal]

I've suffered bouts of depression in the past and fantasised quite a bit about just disappearing without notice, driving as far as I could into some remote area, getting out and walking into the wild into an unsurvivable scenario. Glad I never did but that headspace certainly exists. EDIT: Genuinely didn't expect all the love. Much thanks. Those feelings were half a life-time ago and I'm in a much better place today, having let get of things out of my control and simplifying my life.

[@humandoodad]

As someone who's also thought about doing that exact thing, I'm glad we're both still here, friend.

[@darkymcleod]

To both of you, and anyone out there, I wish I could say I know what you are going through, but I can’t. What I can say is that life periods have minimums… parts of the “story” that are rough, but as in other natural situations, if you continue to move forward you may well reach a clearing where you can find a much better situation, just ahead of where you are. I pray that you all find both the hope to move on and eventually the sustenance that your soul is looking for.

[@jlt131]

i saw a video the other day about that exact scenario - man wandered off into the snowy peaks to die alone. a solo woman hiker just happened across him, she was a SAR volunteer, so she helped him even though he didn't ask for help. she just dropped everything she had planned to get this guy back to the parking lot. years later she got a letter from him via the forest service or something, where he explained why he was out there and thanked her for bringing him back in. it was a great story.

[@GoldenGrenadier]

This is something I had no idea I wanted to do.

[@tHebUm18]

Certainly one of the possibilities when struggling through depression. Hope you're doing better and those thoughts seem remote and unfamiliar now.

[@daniellassander]

Im a Swede and i live in northern Sweden, during the fall chanterelles starts growing and they taste amazing and i just so happen to know a place where they grow. A few years ago, one weekend i decided to go and pick some alone. I park the car to the side of the road and i walk the 2 kilometers, its fairly open ground for the most part. I start picking some chanerelles but they are pretty scarce so i have to look around a bit to find them, then i found this sort of streak of chanterelles that just lead me further and further into the woods. I fill my two 10 liter buckets and decide to start heading back, i couldnt find my way back i was lost. I also made the problem worse because when i realized i was lost, i started to walk all over and around then decided to turn back and start again but i was now in a completely different place. After stressing around like an idiot for at least an hour i just sat down and decided to think things through properly. But that is hard when you are stressed, you think you recognize something so you walk there and then its not something you actually recognized. Anyway, this memory from school entered my mind, "moss only grows on the north side of the trees" and the road i had parked my car at was to the north, so i started walking, looking at trees and tried to figure out which way north was, because moss grows on the shaded side of trees and not only the north, and there are more trees in a forest which provides shade so you have to look at many trees to figure out "north is around that way". Walk for a bit look at more trees, walk a bit more look at more trees and i just kept doing that and in what felt like several hours i eventually stumble out on the road some 3 kilometers away from where i parked my car. Its scary when you are lost and it happens so bloody fast and without you even realizing it. Then you understand you are lost which brings with it a realization that out in the woods you have nothing you need in order to survive. I didnt bring any water with me, or even a bottle, nor food or warm clothes, certainly not a tent. If i had lost my balance and hurt myself id be doomed.

[@Baj64]

At least you could have eaten the chanterelles…

[@MseeBMe]

I’m glad you made it out safely.

[@RawOlympia]

Intense! Scary! Glad you made it out!

[@nikkireigns]

I need to know…did you carry the fruit (I assume it’s fruit, will Google after leaving this comment lol) or did you leave the buckets behind? Edit: mushrooms! 😅

[@waynebinks1091]

It happens fast, Elk hunting in Utah I had a similar experience. Turned into an unexpected overnighter!

[@drewschroeder6714]

I’ll add a story of my own as well. I was out hunting a few years back and a dense fog moved in. I knew the area reasonably well and I told myself I would move in a forward direction where I knew a Rocky outcropping would be. I kept telling myself, it’s just a little ways further. I never found that outcropping. I was never truly “lost” as I had a gps and knew that if I went downhill far enough I would run into a highway. When I decided to finally pull out my gps I found that I had done a giant circle and was close to where I had started when the fog moved in. I was so utterly bewildered that I got so turned around when I was sure I was traveling in a straight line. If I were in a more remote area without navigational tools, that would’ve been a much scarier experience.

[@citizenoftheearth6]

something about the inner ear workings has to do with people going in circles, which happens often

[@kristymoore7052]

I hear ya. I backpack a lot and carry a GPS. Once in Yosemite, I camped maybe 20 yards from the trail. Easy to get back, right? It was stormy and windy that night, so when I left the next morning, I guess I walked right over and past the trail now covered in leaves and pine needles. I was walking into the abyss. I spent a fair amount of time looking for the trail and finally pulled out my GPS. I was waaay off.

[@Alexrider02]

I remember watching a test where they blindfolded people and told them to walk in as straight of a line as they were capable of, and invariably they all ended up walking in a spiral or a circle. Fascinating aspect of the human brain when it goes without context or reference points.

[@lunasif]

@@Alexrider02 When you think about it in a basic way it kind of makes sense. That area is likely safe if you havent been chased off it, we're fond of familiarity (especially when lost), and if you go in a big enough circle you end up where you started from. The only problem is when we're aiming for somewhere else.

[@johnnybravo5726]

dense fog is the real killer

[@crocve]

The "Missing 411" thing exists because people do not want to admit a family member wasn´t prepared for a trip out in the wilderness, or they made a mistake that led to their demise, or they suffered from depression and wanted to end their lifes in hiding. It is more comforting to believe instead that those who dissapeared were victims of a crime that is being covered up by corrupt authorities or of some supernatural force, rather than to admit the more mundane and more likely explanations to what happened.

[@LukeSkinwalker-d8w]

That doesn't explain things like finding the missing people's clothes nearly folded at times, what kid folds clothes? Also tracking dogs losing scents, or many other aspects related to 411. Tho I do agree that at least some of the 411 cases are exactly as you think in your post.

[@xynjak]

missing 411 isnt some giant conpiracy theory though its just weird disappearances

[@kealer2628]

@@LukeSkinwalker-d8w The thing is that the folded clothes and the dogs losing scents and other strange factors are for the most part not common, in fact you will have an incredibly hard time finding any mention of "neatly folded clothes" in park dissaperences outside of David Paulides books, and even most of those cases dont mention anything folded, they mention clothes and items being scattered around, think of it like this, if i told you there were three home invasions in the country where the invader stole the same amount of money and entered the house at the exact same hour you would believe it was the same guy, but im not telling you that they were 3 of thousands of home invasions that happen every year, and that they took place in completely different states in a 30 year span, thats what happens with most missing 411 examples

[@jessharkness5534]

i think animal attacks probably attribute to 'missing 411' cases, too, especially with some of the kids that have gone missing in the wilderness. mountain lions in particular are extremely stealthy. they can and will stalk their prey for a long time, completely undetected. usually they grab their prey by the throat, which probably makes it difficult to scream. it's pretty easy to imagine a little kid wandering off and getting snatched up by one. and, remains might be difficult to find in the circumstance of a mountain lion attack because they eat pretty much every bit of their prey, including the bones.

[@PermanentExile]

I moved into (very) rural and wooded Texas four years ago. I still haven’t reached some parts of my property because the brush is too dense. I injured my back outside and had to crawl my way back to my house. It took 45 on hands and knees to reach my door. And I fell only 10 ft from the patio. If I had been in the woods, no one would have ever found me. The feral hogs, coyotes, buzzards, etc. would have turned me over fast. This gave me a new perspective on the Missing 411 cases and how small problems can be hard to overcome in isolated areas.

[@louiseevans6121]

Wow. Glad you’re ok.

[@melanieforyou]

Do you think there would have been a huge mess of clothes and shoes left behind, though? Searchers would find evidence, right? Then it would be explained.

[@potatopotato8360]

@@melanieforyou The woods are mindbogglingly vast and difficult to traverse, searchers can't possibly search every square inch.

[@Out_on_a_Limb_Life]

@@melanieforyou See the park rangers' comment above. Bodies can be very hard to spot in dense undergrowth.

[@xoxo2008oxox]

Its basically man vs man, man vs nature and man vs themself. No aliens. No mythical creatures. Just ill prepared, accidental, deviant or intentional (take own life, or create illusion of disappearance because failure to self, society or others)

[@geno929]

"Woods Craft" is a lost art. As a former woodsman, I realize that I can get lost within 1/4 mile from my camp, in an area I am totally familiar with. My wife and kids think I'm a crazy old man for going out my door with gear necessary to survive simple difficulties, much less in unknown woods, with no preparation and an urban attitude! "It's dangerous going out your front door Frodo!" Bilbo Baggins.

[@kathleenmcconaha5608]

short cuts make long delays

[@jamesalexander6417]

Smart always sounds crazy to dumb.

[@reverendgoodthrustesq.6875]

> Second that notion dude, myself with a topo map & Brunton compass can get lost in as little of distance as that, it still boggles my mind how simple easy it is to get disorientated & lost even with much experience & tools. I’ve used up jars of whiteout on my field maps having spent half a day inking with confidence the wrong location. I received much of my geology field mapping expertise from another pro geologist and Eagle Scout, he basically drilled into us what you stated; he had a 3-day rule himself, if you hit the trail for whatever reason even if just presumptively for a half day then you should have a field pack for 3 days of minimalist survival. “We do not want any adventures here, thank you! Not today.” - B. B.

[@Gorilla_Violence]

My girlfriend teases me for refusing to go hiking or into the woods without at least a knife. It’s not a lot, but the idea of getting lost with *nothing* useful freaks me out.

[@devschlong]

What is a woodsman?

[@99Stutz]

A weird and scary thing I've learned walking around in the woods and the high desert my whole life: if you're off a trail, unless you're looking down on it from above, it can be IMPOSSIBLE to see the trail until you are right next to it. An entire gravel road can be invisible from the side, even in open sagebrush land. I've had times I thought I was lost and was standing 30 feet from a road I had walked down dozens of times before, even though I had an unobstructed view for miles in every direction.

[@katydidd6321]

Yeah, its like that right in open, recently mowed fields, too.

[@aaronzimny8201]

I wonder if bringing a small drone to get a bird's-eye view could be helpful for hikers. It might be something people start to consider given the relative affordability and light weight of drones these days.

[@99Stutz]

@aaronzimny8201 I think it's definitely becoming popular with vehicle-based overlanding, but probably is still a bit much for hikers who tend to be pretty obsessed with weight. Perhaps hunters and campers who carry more weight over shorter distances, though!

[@MrFateorfaith]

Yea thats no joke. And the high desert can get damn cold damn quick. Was tracking an elk two weeks ago thought I was closer to the road. Got a bonus 3 mile hike in 10 degree weather.

[@samueltaylor6861]

Oh, 100%. I remember a time I was on a BSA campout and me and a buddy went to get water out of a stream at night. We went off the path and found the creek and got the water. However, we were 100% lost in trees and forest that were so dense we couldn’t even see the stars to get a correct heading. We had lights but they didn’t do much when even with them on, you could not see more than 5 feet in front. We did have a compass on hand so it was possible to head a direction with the hope of running into the path? Anyway, my buddy started to get a little flustered and scared because we were in the mountains and it was freezing, and we were lost… we were able to find a shelter which clearly have not been used in forever to gather our thoughts and figure out what exactly to do. We ended up stumbling on the trail and literally falling onto the dirt road up to the site, but to this day we talk about it. I’m not even sure we can find that shelter even if we went looking. Anyway, it’s funny to think about because we really could have died out there and never found, but hey, it was a great experience for us as to how dangerous 10 feet off the trail can be.

[@jordancambridge4106]

Seasoned hiker here. The reason people don't hear screams in woods is forests make a really good canceller of sound. Also deserts and forests are just really easy to trick the vast majority of people's understanding on where they are which causes people to easily get lost and then they generally refuse to admit they ever got lost. Then animals and insects will pick your dead body clean in minutes and well your bones might just get dissolved by nature and the weather. In forests bones become part of the brush and they get slowly consumed by the ground turning to nutrients for the under growth slowly and in deserts the heat just melts your bones away over time making it impossible to ever find. Its just you become one with nature in the purest of senses.

[@khomatech0]

cool story bro

[@PBKittyCat]

My cousin went snowboarding in the White Cloud Mountains in Idaho in the summer of 2005. He didn’t check in at the ranger station beforehand. He had a backpack with a few snacks, and a camcorder to record his trip. He triggered an avalanche and was injured. He ate his snacks and recorded his last moments. His friends found him a few days later. He died from his injuries and exposure. His mother watched the video over and over. I didn’t watch it at all. She took her own life years later out of grief. My cousin was an experienced hiker, snowboarder and EMT, but made a mistake that cost him his life and had a huge impact on the whole family. I miss him still.

[@tanyanguyen3704]

I dont even know if you would say “he made a mistake”. Sometimes, actually, often, life comes at you, and you do t make any identifiable mistake, yet you suffer. Yeah, he forgot to check in at the ranger station, but an avalanche is a wicked force of nature that can leave you without hope.

[@joelwexler]

I couldn't watch it, either. Poor mom. 😪

[@joemainey129]

I couldn't watch that. Sorry for your loss

[@PBKittyCat]

@@tanyanguyen3704 based on conversations with family and those who had seen the video, it was clear he understood he should have checked in with the station. That’s what he always taught others to do. He was an adventurer and often ended up as an instructor/tour guide for all sorts of sports and activities. He didn’t have the right equipment, conditions were perfect for an avalanche, and he told no one he was going. Lots of mistakes were made.

[@Lardfist0]

Sorry for your loss. I hope all is well.

[@naynayhooray]

I was 8 years old when I got lost in a campsite. It was a developed site with paved roads in a crowded National Park. I thought I saw another little girl around a bend and I wanted to play with her. Hours later a lady found me walking alone and i sat with her until a big search party arrived. I remember my mother crying and hugging me. Since then I’ve never hiked alone and always stay within visible distance of my hiking partners. It’s very, very easy to get lost.

[@qq84]

Yes, but it also happened with experienced hikers, even out of groups.

[@jwhite-1471]

Lured by the fae ...

[@justinbellotti7838]

It is super easy to get lost. People get lost in malls and places like that but they dont think that they could get lost in literally nowhere.

[@Pavewy]

...I'm curious about the little girl you saw and the lady that stayed with you. Where did they come from?

[@benhunter8551]

Sounds like you got tricked by the Aliens (likely Tall Grays). You were likely abducted without your knowledge but fortunate enough to be returned. The aliens are probably monitoring you even to this day.

[@kevindavis9095]

I'm from Montana and it is amazing to me how clueless some people are in the wild. Just because an area has a title like 'National Park', tourists will believe everything is somehow under government control and protection. They think they are free and safe to walk right up to buffalo, bears, moose, etc. Every year, you read stories about people in Glacier or Yellowstone jumping out of their cars to get a picture with a wild animal and then getting killed. It's insane.

[@tcf_iceland]

It's the same here in Iceland, we have tourists dying almost every year, because they don't understand nature or listen to warnings. Even in Reynisfjara, there is a BIG warning sign (more than one I think) and still people get too close, they go into the ocean and get carried away in the strong undercurrent and there is no way to get to them. The sea is also very cold, even in the summertime, you'll die really fast. And now with endless eruptions, people actually trespass closed roads to get close to the still running lava. Even walking on top of it. While it's still glowing underneath the crust. If the crust breaks, there is NO ONE who can safe you, you will be gone for good 🤦🏻‍♀️ And then are the glaciers, constantly moving and crevasses shifting, mountains with steep drops and weather can change in an instant. The weather alone can kill you. Even if the country is a relatively small country, a vast majority of it is completely inhabitable.

[@LackofFaithify]

But my right to bear arms is still protected right?

[@literallylondonn]

@@tcf_icelandi was thinking about visiting. you've changed my mind lol

[@Ryaninja]

@@LackofFaithify Yes, don't worry, you're still protected by the right to have bear arms. It's the amount of Immune Suppression Drugs you need after the surgery that are the real problem.

[@elocher4]

@@kevindavis9095 This irritates me to no end. I live near a series of recreational trails and almost every year there's a little search party for someone who got lost, because they wandered off the trail to take a leak or get a photo of something. If someone is so incompetent that they get lost on a recreational walking path, I can only imagine what would happen to them in the actual wilderness.

[@matthewfranklin2137]

i once went to a nearby city with a friend, in Iowa. We have a few missing 411 cases. My friend, told me about a cool place in a nearby forest, that she had gone to dozens of times without issue. halfway thru our trek, it began to pour and we became disoriented. It took us hours to find our car, despite only walking 2-3 miles into the woods, and we had been tracking our direction. No one in our families even knew we were out there, and we came upon a massive ravine and cliff. we were one tumble away from falling to our deaths. Its remarkably easy to simply get lost, or fall into a hole, or even fall off a cliff if youre not paying attention to where youre stepping.

[@DavidTucker85]

When I was in college, I went on a caving trip with the outdoor club. One morning me and two guys got up early and decided to explore. I knew nothing about spelunking but thought they did. They did not. We were very very lucky to get back out.

[@lsmith495]

Oh that sounds like a bad nightmare…lost in a cave. Lucky things turned out ok for you!

[@mattmarzula]

A flashlight, high visibility type-III nylon chord and spray paint. Also water. That's the minimum. Chem lights and a canary optional.

[@TPRM1]

I feel like the phrase “nope the fuck out” was invented for the feeling I get when even thinking about entering a cave. I can’t even look at Google Images of caves.

[@zacharysavoy6138]

@@mattmarzulathis might be a dumb question but why spray paint? For visibility?

[@slopbucketeer6129]

@@zacharysavoy6138marking your path so you can easily retrace your steps

[@EngineeringWizard11]

I recall a story that was starting to turn into a Missing 411 case out in the deserts of California, if memory serves. A man had simply vanished without a trace. The searchers were looking high and low and never would have found him, if it weren't for one of the searchers who suddenly dropped off the face of the earth as he fell into an dry, abandoned well that was just a narrow, unnoticed opening in the sand. Thankfully, he had a radio and was able to get help. The body of the missing man next to him showed what might have happened if he didn't have that radio.

[@RichardCox0]

I apparently went missing once. I was a scout and we were in groups of two given the task of following a map through a wooded area (in Denmark where there's no large predators). We had compasses and experience but something went wrong. A team of searchers came out of nowhere and told us that 5 hours had gone by and we had actually left the area covered by our map. We were surprised to learn that we'd been missing.

[@bobd2659]

I was reported missing once too! Dad was pissed I didn't call him on his birthday, or the day before, or the day after ...so instead of even attempting to contact me at all, he called the cops. Missing/wellness check - cops showed up at my door. Dragged myself to the door, puke bucket in hand. Obviously I was not well, but they really can't do anything for food poisoning!

[@elenagonzalez8463]

I was also reported missing! When I was a kid my mom had allowed me to spend time in my neighbourhood, so I went to a friends house but I spent there too long and I didn't realize this. I didn't have a phone or anything at the time so there was no way of me to contact my mom. I was so surprised to learn that the entire neighbourhood was looking for me 🫤 I feel so guilty still because its lead to my mom becoming paranoid which I don't blame her

[@Whatupitskevin]

I have two family members who work in national parks, one on the east coast and one on the west coast. I’ve asked them about this and they both said the same thing, people sadly go there alone to “disappear forever” sometimes they are found, sometimes the animals get ahold of them afterwards, sometimes the water washes them away. Sometimes they are looking in the wrong spot.

[@onbearfeet]

Your story about getting lost in the woods reminded me of a similar story. In 2013, a friend and I pulled off the highway during a road trip to visit a tiny state park in the California redwoods. We were handed a very simple map of a closed loop trail and told that it took most people 10 to 15 minutes to walk the loop. The trail was full of elderly birdwatchers and young families with strollers. We took our time, taking photos and goofing around without ever leaving the trail, and then we realized that we were halfway through the hour we had allotted, the trail around us was empty ... and there was a fork in the trail ahead of us that wasn't on the map. We took the branch that seemed to curve back toward the parking lot, but after 20 minutes, we still hadn't seen, heard, or smelled another person or a car. We found ourselves walking beside a river that wasn't on the park map and wasn't on maps of the region that we would check later. Finally, when we ran into a tree with a knot sticking out of it that looked eerily like a screaming human skull, we turned around and retraced our steps, planning to take the other branch when we got back to the fork. We never saw the fork again. We somehow ended up back at the parking lot without passing it. We never found any record of a river near that park, nor did we pass over one when we drove on afterward. A friend of mine likes to jokingly call this story "that time you wandered into faerie", but I can absolutely see how the legends happened. A forest can swallow people alive. No fairies or sasquatches required.

[@Razorcarl]

what happened?

[@JorgeRobles-e5t]

I've had several trips in the parks and would consider myself a pretty experienced hiker. The parks will absolutely do shit like this, it's terrifying because you've done all your research and been aware of your surroundings and it starts to feel like the woods are shifting and messing with you.

[@MrAlbertsen]

You encountered SCP-67458 type Keter Sit tight - a containment team will be at your location shortly

[@bloodgain]

You gotta be careful. If you wander too far from other people, the simulation's resources get stretched thin, and because it has to optimize for populated areas, it can't maintain the integrity of you reality. It just does its best to give you vaguely similar results until you wander back close enough to a group where it's pre-rendered the surroundings.

[@onbearfeet]

​@Razorcarl I have no idea. Never found an explanation, or a map that showed the river. We went back to our rental car and booked it out of there as fast as the twisty highway would allow.

[@Zanockthael]

Earlier this year in the UK, there was a pretty famous missing person case that got a lot of media attention. I won't go into too much detail (look up Jay Slater for that) but everyone I knew had all these theories about what could have happened to him, everything from drug dealers kidnapping him to him trying to hide after murdering someone. When I pointed out that he was a teen with not a lot of outdoors experience who decided to go hike over mountains, in Spain, IN THE MIDDLE OF SUMMER, without apparently any food or water, while probably high, and as such, was probably just dead form a fall or heatstroke, people were like, "No, I'm sure it was XYZ theory". My mum actually said that thinking he had just died randomly like that was too sad, so she wanted to believe he was kidnapped. Us humans just seem to have a real, palpable aversion to believing we could ever be at the mercy to luck.

[@bewilderbeastie8899]

This also reminds me of Nicola Bulley. Everyone was adamant she'd been murdered or kidnapped or attacked, that there was no way it couldn't have been foul play... until they found her body one mile downriver. Because she'd fallen in and drowned. No foul play at all. Accidents really just happen, humans don't have as much control over their surroundings as they'd like. Although in that case the police really cocked it up because damn, they didn't try very hard at all and they were saying awful things about her.

[@osvaldomedina173]

normally the answer is the simplest one....

[@carolbaker2773]

My older brother decided one day to start hiking a small mountain in the Appalachian range. Just tshirt and shorts with worn out tennis shoes. Started around 3pm not realizing it was gonna get dark around 6pm. Luckily search and rescue found him completely exhausted and dehydrated. Sometimes young people are dumb and think they are invincible. The other sad story I have is that an acquaintance in college who was a very experienced outdoorsman died by drowning in a Missouri stream. Him and three friends went camping one seeking in the Ozarks (knows for their caves and springs) and he was quicker to set up his tent then his friends and went for a swim to cool down. He went down and didn’t come back up. He got stuck in a suction current where the water is entering a cave system and there is a strong undercurrent. All it takes is 3 minutes underwater. Since his friends knew where he went down they immediately found him but couldn’t get him unstuck (it was already too late when they found him). It took a truck pulley and hitch to get him out.

[@hauntedcoffee749]

I remember getting into arguments online about people claiming that he was drug dealing or involved with the mafia because an anonymous tumblr post “said so.” 🤦‍♀️ People are so gullible that they didn’t even consider the post was most likely fake from a troll.

[@Len124]

It's like asking why all the shark attacks seem to happen to surfers as opposed to cyclists. There's nothing mysterious about more people disappearing in the locations filled with miles of dense forests and predators compared to places with street signs and people to ask directions. In civilization, a victim has to encounter someone who wants to kidnap them and do them harm, which is relatively rare in the grand scheme of things, while in the wilderness they only have to walk fifty feet beyond the tree-line to disappear forever.

[@WramblinWreck2187]

I agree with this to some extent. But I'd also put forward that lots of transient people frequent national parks, so the idea of kids/women being abducted is not far fetched. But any conspiracy is just nonsense.

[@PeachysMom]

It’s confirmation bias. There’s no control group you can compare to, so disappearances in parks seem alarming. But the wilderness is very dangerous, and people underestimate it.

[@joekelly7505]

Not to mention the sheer volume of National Park visitors every year.

[@Billionth_Kevin]

Woah! Mind blown, never realized how few cyclists get attacked by sharks. Sharks really do have it out for surfers

[@amandatyler4324]

And also I see a lot of comments saying “I would never take my eyes off my kid for a second in the wildnerness.” Well yeah you would, because nearly all the time you do and everyone is just fine. And if you are watching your child literally non stop, you’re probably kind of a helicopter parent….you have to balance the likihood of something bad happening to letting your child gain confidence that comes with independence. Doesn’t mean you let your two year old go on a walk by themselves, but most people aren’t helicopter parenting their kids (and I have two younger kids so I’m around “today's parents,” all the time). It’s naive to think if you’re just a normal (non helicopter) parent that’s doing a good job watching your child, that nothing bad will happen. Because 1) two seconds IS all it takes for them to run off, but there’s about a one in a million chance of that happening (but as the comment above me said, “confirmation bias”) and 2) I find it hard to believe anyone that says they never take their eyes off their kids in places like this, and even if you aren’t, you’re more likely to be doing far more damage to your child by putting them in a bubble.

[@Klyis]

I live in Arizona and every year there are dozens of instance of people needing rescue (and a few deaths) because they went hiking without water and got heatstroke. Most of them are on easy access trails with high traffic and decent cell reception. So it isn't much of a stretch that a lot of 411 cases could be easily explained by people succumbing to the elements and not being found because they were in a more remote area or went off a trail. One incident I remember hearing about as a child was a couple on vacation who were out hiking. Husband got tired but wife wanted to keep going so they split up (1st big mistake). Husband told his wife he would pick her in one of two locations (2nd big mistake) and returned to their car. Wife continued on for a ways, fell, and was badly injured. She didn't have a phone, water, food, or first aid kit (3rd big mistake). Fortunately, sightseeing helicopter tours were popular in the area and she managed to wave one down as it flew overhead and was rescued. Just goes to show that people will do some incredibly stupid things while out in nature but in most other cases there won't be a chance encounter with a helicopter to save them.

[@rossprairietraveler974]

Years ago, before cell phones were real big, I went to a National Forest to kill some time. I parked at a trail head, planning to hike 20 minutes or so out, then turn around and hike back. I didn't take any water because I was only going to be out 45 minutes or so. That was my first mistake, I live in Florida, you always take water. At the trail head was some of those crudely drawn trail maps, so I grabbed one and started walking. As I was walking, I glanced at the little map a few times and at the 20 minute mark, it appeared that I was more than half way around the loop trail. Mistake two, I trusted that the map was accurate. I decide to just walk the rest of the way around the loop, mistake three. The loop ended up being a ten mile loop. Middle of summer in Florida, no water, mid 90s, high humidity. It was a tall pine, palmetto covered area, so no real shade. At one point I lay down and rolled up under the palmetto bushes to get out of the sun. I laid there for a while and cooled off. Let the panic wear off a little and realized I was still on the trail. If I had to take breaks every 15 minutes, so what, I just needed to follow the trial to get out. I rolled out, started walking and maybe 10 minutes later, I realized that my keys were no longer hanging from my belt. So I walked back to where I had laid down and thank God, there were my keys. I obviously made it but it wasn't pretty. I was very happy to see my truck. Went home, filled the bathtub with cold water and stayed in there for a long time. The next week I bought a GPS. It only takes making a couple bad decisions. Yes, all I needed to do was follow the trail out, I wasn't lost but I was still in serious danger.

[@andrewd7112]

Maybe 10 years ago, I was going to hike alone the Sentinel Meadows trail in Yellowstone National Park, then continue on to loop around. I'd looked at a map a week earlier and thought it was 3 odd miles round trip. I remembered wrong: it was 3.8 miles one way just to get to the Meadow and that was just half way around the loop. I knew I'd hiked much further than 3 miles. I knew there was a junction where the trail went in 3 directions, one of them went a short distance south to a bike trail and the other direction went about 9 miles through the back country. So I wondered if I'd accidentally missed that junction and gone on the long route away from the parking area. Still a few hours away from sunset but darkness was something to think about especially if I'd gone the wrong way. I knew if I went straight south I'd eventually hit a bike trail and then it'd be easy to find the way back to the parking. I decided to stay on the trail. Good thing; I eventually ran into the intersection and it was well marked. Got back to the bike trail and back to my vehicle well before dark. That could've easily become a survival situation.

[@edwardfletcher7790]

I did the same thing in the 90's , people had phones but coverage in parks wasn't good at all, so I bought an early Garmin eTrex, great fun doing geocaching, but DAMN those units chewed up Alkaline batteries !!!

[@samarnadra]

This is why, even though my Girl Scouts troop (we were really little still) didn't cover a lot of wilderness stuff in detail, they did tell us that if an adult will be looking for you, find the biggest thing in site and stay by it and blow your whistle (saw a version of this later with "hug the biggest tree you can find and talk to it" for little kids lost in a forest) and if not, walk back the way you came, not veering from the path at all, shortcuts aren't to be trusted. I still use these methods to this day decades later even in like a grocery store if I get separated from others I go to the main aisle and near either a really obvious display or up to the registers, where they might also go. I backtrack if I get lost while driving. The logic is that you knew it took 20 minutes to get to that point and the way to go, now you just need to take 20 minutes on a familiar path and you should be back where you started.

[@EArkham]

Years ago, I went on a hike with a friend in the North Carolina mountains. The trail was easy to read with lots of people on it until... suddenly it wasn't, and we were completely off the trail. We didn't even realize we were off the trail until we realized there was no way the elderly couple we had passed from the other direction was capable of climbing the rocky slope we were on. An easy two hour hike turned into six hours of us being lost and wandering the woods. It's VERY easy to get lost in the wilderness, even on trails that appear to be clearly marked.

[@brucebear1]

Occam's Razor. It's dependable.

[@Thousandpointsoflight]

😂

[@kdw75]

I am 50, according to my BMI, obese and spend way too much time on the couch and playing games on the PC. That being said I regularly walk steep hills in 100 degree weather and freezing weather. I usually keep it around 7-10 miles 2-3 times a week. So of course the average fit/thin person could probably do so much more. I just don't get these people that aren't overweight acting like they have trouble walking on trails or needing to drink water ever couple of hours. I will go out in the summer and clear brush on my property and not eat or drink for 5 or 6 hours even though I am sweating buckets.

[@LG123ABC]

@@kdw75 You better be careful because they might find your body someday after you were out clearing brush without drinking water. Hydration is for girly-men, right? What an odd thing to be proud of!

[@brittneybabeee4031]

@@kdw75Look man, it doesn’t matter what you feel you can do or what you have done in the past, it is a GOOD thing to drink water & stay hydrated, ESPECIALLY when you’re sweating buckets. Drinking water & taking breaks isn’t a flaw nor is it a sissy thing to do, or whatever other macho bull crap you may have been fed. Please, drink water & take breaks. My dad was a big, burly man who worked in the sun 24/7, starting in the military out in the desert & then when he got out & owned his own plumbing business that did great. & Yet, he drank water & took breaks, & made sure I did the same. If my “macho man” daddy could do it, so can you. 👍🏻

[@martinallen1655]

Joe's story about getting mildly "lost" is instructive. Speaking as a former U.S. Army Ranger and an Eagle Scout, my best advice to people is. If you aren't a competent , comfortable and experienced with outdoor situations do not assume that any remote area, camping ground, park or reserve is the place for you. Also, if you are taking children into those environments someone must keep an eye on them at ALL times. Sending Little Susie "back up the trail a few hundred feet" is a recipe for Little Susie to get lost, injured, pick up a toxic plant and poisoned or etc. Be very wary of the "wild" and treat it like it is trying to kill you, because if you give it the chance. It will.

[@palladin9479]

I agree, so many city and suburbanites go out into nature thinking it's nice and friendly. Especially if they grew up and lived their whole live with streets and buildings that have right angles.

[@hhunstad2011]

Oh my goodness. Being afraid of the wilderness seems off. A healthy respect and modicum of humility should suffice. And I gotta say competence, comfortability, and experience is quite the list of barriers. Many wilderness spaces, campgrounds, and parks have lots of things in place to accommodate the novice. I think it's a shame how alien and elusive nature is to most. A whole other world right in front of them that they have no concept of other then it's potential threat. It's no wonder our natural environment and ecosystems are largely dismissed and respected.

[@martinallen1655]

@@hhunstad2011 here is an example for you that was completely avoidable, an "experienced" hiker missed a turn in the trail. this happened about 30 miles from where i live and i remember the local news coverage and details. ONE single simple mistake which was compounded by the fact that he and his boys weren't prepared for a change in the weather, weren't carrying 98 cent disposable ponchos that could fit in a pocket, apparently didn't have anything with them to start a fire and etc. a fanny pack with a few items would have saved their lives. how many people know that you can succumb to hypothermia even when the temperature is above 65 degrees F and that even at the height of summer you have to prepare to wind up wet, cold and in windy conditions that can lead to death by exposure? also these three were hardly in the "wilderness" they were in the Lake of the Ozarks obviously within sight of hard surface roads (since a motorist offered them a ride), and less than 1000 feet from their cabin, so basically in an area even a "novice" should have been fairly safe. nature WILL kill you if you give it the chance. www.reuters.com/article/lifestyle/illinois-father-and-two-sons-freeze-to-death-during-hike-idUSBRE90D11G/

[@pranc236]

I dont let my 4 yo a few hundred feet from me at a suburban park. No way they would be out of my sight.

[@irishboer7124]

Very good, but there are people more experienced/qualified than you who disappear too.

[@robynsmith4164]

One thing I have noticed in many of the cases featured in the 411 series is how the weather dramatically changed very unexpectedly and very early on in the Search And Rescue (SAR) efforts!

[@jonizornes5286]

I was raised in southern West Virginia and grew up walking the ridges. One ridge I'd walked literally dozens and dozens of times, all my life and knew every inch of it by memory. Then one day while walking, just enjoying nature and the scenery, I noticed that I didn't recognize where I was. Since the mountain ridges often merge at certain points, I just backtracked to find where I went the wrong direction. I wasn't worried because I could always make my way down the mountain and get on a county or logging road and find my way home. But I was determined to find where I went wrong. I spent at least an hour trying to backtrack and finally I found an area that was familiar. I got back on the ridge trail and walked on home. I never found where I took the wrong direction, I just happened to find myself back on the right trail. The point is, even if you know your way like "the back of your hand", you can still lose your way by getting distracted in deep woods.

[@armadelinsurgente5722]

I have some tracking and search and rescue experience. You be shocked at how many times inexperienced search teams mess up a search by stomping all over tracks and evidence that would have lead to the missing person. Also, it's not uncommon for lost or missing people to hide when they see or hear searchers. Especially children. We had a 12 year old hide from thermal for 4 days by hiding under rocks every time he heard helicopters.

[@BrentWalker999]

Why do they hide?

[@themischief420]

​@@BrentWalker999maybe thinking they'll be in trouble

[@COMMANDERKATO]

Why do they hide x2

[@Bailey_Dreamfoot]

@@COMMANDERKATO coz kids usually dont understand that they're trying to help. id like to think i was prety smart when i was 12 but if i went from waking up in my vozy bed eating cinnamon toast crunch, watching spongebob to being lost in the wilderness for 4 days i think id have a heart attack at my own shadow, let alone seeing/ hearing a helicopter for the first time in person. also kids are almost always scared of adults for some reason idk lol

[@carolbaker2773]

@@BrentWalker999 the fear of strangers is implanted in every child in the US. On top of that, they feel like they are going to get into trouble. The decision making skills are not developed in children.

[@lauracronbungusman1582]

A college classmate of mine went missing on a popular trail in Sedona. It’s a 7 mile hike that was moderate intensity, but he was prepared and went with his friend. At some point in the hike, they separated and the other guy thought they’d meet back up at the car. His friend made it back but he never did. They never found him. I hiked that same trail alone just weeks before, I haven’t been able to go back since.

[@katesun2957]

I'm so sorry. That sounds awful.

[@lauracronbungusman1582]

If anyone’s interested in the strange circumstances: I’ll be using “John” as his name for the sake of clarity. John was the one with the car keys. They made it to the top of the hike at 1pm. Once at the top, John’s friend wanted to explore. John said he would stay put, and the friend went exploring for 30 minutes. When he came back, John was gone. Johns friend looked for him, but decided to head down the mountain to see if he went down there. He got lost along the way, and wasn’t able to make it to a place he recognized until 11pm. Since John had the car keys, John’s friend slept in a park bathroom until daylight where he got help and reported John as missing. I wish we knew what happened to John in those 30 minutes.

[@twistysprinkles8586]

@@lauracronbungusman1582 are there mountain lions where you are? They’re very silent hunters and can take you without warning after watching you for HOURS. They wait till you’re alone and pounce. It’s not a great thought about what may have happened to your friend, but in Arizona you’re told to not hike alone in some places for that very reason. 😢

[@smoothbrainsquid1904]

​@@lauracronbungusman1582 The one who stayed put was the one who vanished...? What the heck.

[@lauracronbungusman1582]

@@twistysprinkles8586 there are a rising number of them being seen in Sedona. He was a smaller build guy too, I could see that as a possibility. That scares me considering I hiked that trail alone as a smaller woman. I won’t be going alone ever again.

[@etherealvaleska4483]

As someone who has been hiking since I was in the single digits and has since hiked & backpacked in national parks all across the US, the thing that bothers me the most about the "missing 411" stuff is how abundantly clear it is that none of these believers have ever truly been somewhere WILD. In the badlands in South Dakota, you can see for miles and miles and miles. You can see the Black Hills (~60 miles away) as clear as day, and when the sun is out, there is almost nothing to provide shade. And, if you walked five feet off a trail into the grass and laid down, you would become completely invisible. No one would see you, and if you stayed there, it is incredibly unlikely searchers would find you either, because that park encompasses nearly 250,000 acres of land, and your body occupies maybe six square feet. If it's that easy to disappear in one of the parks with the highest visibility in the country, just imagine how easy it is to disappear in somewhere like Shenandoah or the Everglades or the Tetons. There is undergrowth so thick you can barely even see your own feet, and ponds and streams and ravines that could sweep you off the path. And that's not even considering the wildlife like grizzlies and mountain lions and alligators that could *dispose* of you long before you were reported as missing. Nature is utterly unforgiving of any mistakes. Sometimes, you don't make a mistake, and you still end up in a predicament you can't get out of. Modern amenities have made people forget that humans are not actually apex predators, and nature is not designed for our comfort. There doesn't need to be a conspiracy to explain why people vanish in the woods. People vanish in the woods because of injuries, exposure, dehydration, predators, disorientation, or any other possible factor, and then they are never found because the woods are massive and can never be fully searched. It's very sad, but it's not a conspiracy, and I feel very bad for all the families of lost hikers who have been dragged into this mess by Paulides.

[@badbeardbill9956]

Well said. The forest, and other wilderness areas, can be truly beautiful. But they are not places made for us. The forest, even in the day, can be difficult to navigate. It’s easy to get lost. And that’s before considering caves, animals, and even night. Do not go into the wild without adequate equipment, do not go without notifying your loved ones and friends, do not go without understanding the risks.

[@liah8090]

Humans are apex predators. And we have been for roughly 2 million years.

[@AG-iu9lv]

Thank you for saying "people grieve differently". That shows thoughtfulness, kindness, and humanity

[@SoullessAIMusic]

That is actually something David politis does as well. He mentions it quite frequently in a lot of his interviews throughout the years. That is why if you listen to David politis and his conversations with people he is very reluctant to openly share some of the more drastic theories in a lot of his interviews. That is actually something that was not mentioned in this video. His end analysis of David backing off because he lost somebody is probably true, though I would not attach the notion that it is because this is the only time he thought about the people grieving. Or that the grief of others wasn't already an influence. Furthermore David politis does cover a lot of the information that is provided here through a skeptical lens, particularly people getting lost near caves.

[@jchinckley]

I don't want to give you a thumbs up... but only because the thumbs up as I write this is at exactly 411.

[@LunamrathP]

@@SoullessAIMusic I think to an extent people have forgotten that just because conspiracies can be harmful doesn't mean the people coming up with them are necessarily bad people. I personally don't think David deserves some of the harsh character judgements he receives, even if I think his ideas are fantastical and even lean into delusional.

[@SoullessAIMusic]

@@LunamrathP most people are only introduced to David through critics who can be very hyperbolic at times. Even when he is talking about the stranger hypotheses he has a history of being quite sensitive about the subject. I think people just like to brand him as an Alex Jones type and portray him as someone who's just constantly yelling into a microphone. Thats also not touching on the fact that its still a rather large amount of people going missing, seemingly with little concern of the years. This video talks about how a lot of people go missing around caves, assuming the hand wave explanation here is true, don't you think they would try to ward people off from these locations, or at least warn them of the large frequency of missing people? Just because someone may have an issue with David, it does not mean theres not an issue with the large number of missing people in these areas.

[@rogerwilco1777]

oh they totally killed that kid

[@Pattio47]

At 24:40 it made me think of an old family friend living in a seniors apartment. Every time we visited he would talk about a conspiracy. “People are dying in this building all the time”. He forgot they were all over 80. He eventually died there too. Stay away from that building

[@WhiteWolf-lm7gj]

I have to wonder what he thought about hospitals

[@nw42]

@@WhiteWolf-lm7gj Hospitals are strangest of all. The elderly check in, babies check out. Peak weirdness.

[@NemrahG]

As someone who worked in parks as a ranger this really isn’t surprising at all. It can be very easy to get turned around in forests and it can be really hard to spot bodies or missing people in underbrush. Also, I’ve seen lots and lots of people do unbelievably stupid things out in the wilderness for seemingly no reason, idk how to explain it but some people just lose all common sense in the wild.

[@poolhalljunkie9]

You're being nice assuming that most people have common sense to begin with.

[@andyreznick]

Forget the wilderness. I even get lost at the zoo.

[@N0sf3r4tuR1s3n]

"unbelievably stupid things out in the wilderness for seemingly no reason" well don't leave us hanging, we want some details. Are you talking about people just forgetting to bring a good compass or trying to hand feed bears or something?

[@NemrahG]

@ yup there’s feeding bears, and walking up to moose. We had one group who almost started a forest fire about 200m from our campground because they were lost and trying to make a signal bonfire, even though they were at the shoreline and if they followed it for 5 mins they would’ve been back. We had one person try climbing up a cliff as a shortcut because a trail was taking too long, they fell down and broke their leg, could’ve easily died and the trail was only 2.5km so not that long. Then on the way one of our rangers broke their ankle on the way so we needed to airlift both out.

[@davidlloyd7597]

Perhaps they are just acting like they would in a familiar environment, not taking into consideration that they are not on their home turf.

[@erikswenson915]

“It was the Law of the Sea, they said. Civilization ends at the waterline. Beyond that, we all enter the food chain, and not always right at the top.” -Hunter S. Thompson

[@YourLocalZombie]

I frequented a forum with a guy who had paranoid fantasies. He ran away while he and a friend were driving. A hiker found his body in a creek with a broken leg over a year later, less than 2 miles from where he disappeared and only 400m from a highway outside of Dayton, OH. He had a dead laptop and food cans, they think he was living out there and stealing to eat. I figured he was either hopping trains or fled to another country. I drive an ambulance past where they found him all the time. It's easier to disappear than most people think.

[@tomburress4928]

It blows my mind how people are so shocked when someone, usually a kid, disappears when they only lose sight of them for “seconds” or “minutes”. People lose track of their kids for 30 minutes or more in Walmart after tacking their eyes off them for a few seconds only for them to be found at the opposite side of the store. These parks are hundreds or thousands of acres large and people really underestimate how far a kid can wander off and the random nooks and crannies they can get in too. We’ve really come to underestimate the wilderness and how “tame” it is. Just because there are well traveled trails does not mean the place won’t passively, or occasionally in regards to wildlife, actively kill you easily.

[@Foxiesz]

Theres so many stories where the searchers just kinda arbitrarily go oh well he couldnt have gone more than 5km away and strictly search only that area, only for the kid to be found 20km away later. Its kinda mean but people don't really realize how a lot of searches just were kinda shitty or the area was unreasonably hard

[@samarnadra]

Even more than that, people leave kids/pets in the car "for only a minute" to run into the house or a store only to come out 20-30 minutes later to a kid/pet who is in medical distress or deceased from the heat building up in the car. Humans are generally really bad at judging things like "seconds" or "minutes" without counting/checking a watch/clock and it is easy to get distracted or forget things as your routine changes. I suspect most of these "just a second" accounts were several minutes and these "only a few minutes" were 15-30 easily. A kid can get really far in that amount of time, as you noted. Also, having been a nanny for one, I am pretty sure toddlers can teleport or something. You are looking at them, hear a noise and glance away, and then look back and they are somehow past the baby gates and on the upstairs landing trying to get on the banister (didn't actually happen, but only a slight exaggeration), or you sleep on a way where they have to climb over you to get out of bed so you will definitely be woken up, and they somehow get past you and all the fun distractions and the baby gate to find a pocket knife someone forgot at a party the night before and thankfully the nanny lives upstairs and her cats have been making a racket because they heard a human up and wanted food, so she comes out and is able to trade the knife for candy (actually happened, looking back over the cameras we used to watch over the housemate with altzheimers, I came out less than a minute after she found the knife, and about 3 after she got out of bed). They are incredibly sneaky and fast and even in an enclosed space can get into places we wouldn't think of (like under the main bed, on top of the trundle bed... don't know how she fit), and get injured in a space with nothing harmful - i have been part of the aftermath when working next door in the nursery of one 2 year old putting bubble solution in the eyes of another 2 year old while they were being supervised by 2 adults and there were a bunch of 2-3 year olds totally willing to tattle also present, they needed help separating them and dealing with the problem but also watching the others, so we took the other 2s into nursery and the 3s into the 4s and 5s class, thankfully the remaining 2s were eager to help "watch the babies" and would pretend to read board books to them and they sang to them, and the 4s and 5s were like "we are big kids, we can help watch the little kids!" and were trying to help them color and read the worksheets... and all classes had to have an adult and a teen or two adults at all times just for things like this - we assistants were able to get both sets of parents while the 2s and 3s teacher and assistant took care of the two involved and then we could go back to our rooms and supervise the increased number of kids. If it had been more chaotic, we would have pulled more assistants in or the preteens that were sometimes assistant assistants when their parents or older siblings were volunteering, or pulled teens/adults who often helped out out of service (this was at church). I have no doubt that a toddler could travel for like 10 km randomly and older kids even farther. Toddlers don't believe in traveling in 2 dimensions, and could easily slip through a crevice climb rocks and slide down the other side of a hill putting them "impossibly far away" in minutes, in what for an adult might be a serious hike around.

[@jchinckley]

@@samarnadra I was with my wife and our kids in a supermarket one day when we realized that the youngest (at the time) was no longer with us. I started running up and down every aisle in the store and never found her, so I went to the entrance thinking she had somehow gotten outside. That was where I found her, right at the entrance. I consider myself either extremely lucky or blessed that she didn't wander even farther off.

[@orionbarnes1733]

The reason I never could get into the whole missing 411 thing is because unlike most mysteries, it's approached like a conspiracy theory from the start. They start with their conclusion (there is something connecting every missing persons case in national parks) and then work their way backwards to figure out what it is. That's not how mysteries are solved. Every mystery is different, with a different answer. If you approach something with the mindset that somehow there's something that connects them all then you shouldn't be surprised when you're left with crazy stuff like aliens, that's going to happen every time because normal things simply don't work like that. Missing 411 has no solution, because it's not a mystery. It's hundreds of small mysteries being treated like the same thing, and having connections drawn between them and unrelated events.

[@MsManomen]

Exactly, plus the obvious danger

[@jwetzel3141]

You are completely full of excrement. No evidence to your conjecture. Make your own channel then.

[@davescott7680]

​@@jwetzel3141... Random...

[@1pcfred]

It's the park cannibals that get them. I dare you to do a web search about that topic. Just google park cannibals. You're going to find stuff.

[@ssokolow]

@@jwetzel3141 No need. The Missing Enigma already exists.

[@htjes82]

As a Wyoming native and resident who has spent years in the wilderness, my guess would be that most disappeared people became lunch. I have literally been stalked by mountain lions before. It was 50-100 feet behind me for miles and I didn’t know till I circled back.

[@MidnightLyme-zx7qr]

I was an ecologist. I have known 7 people that died. One a friend, another a labtech I was very fond of. If you spend time outdoors, you are comfortable with it, you think you are prepared, and you forget there is no being fully prepared. I have 2 devastating diseases from ticks, one of which I had never heard of. Humans are fragile.

[@wtice4632]

Can i ask the names of your tick borne diseases?

[@S3lkie-Gutz]

@@wtice4632 probably lyme alpha gal typhus or lone star tick fever those are my best guesses

[@DavidSmith-vr1nb]

​@@S3lkie-Gutz Lyme would be the common one that more people have heard of. Any of the others is a good candidate for the second.

[@hybridwafer]

@@S3lkie-Gutz Maybe Morgellons. Had never heard about it up until recently. It was an interesting read.

[@kyledaugherty1609]

@@S3lkie-Gutz My money's on lone star tick fever. I had a coworker/friend (avid hunter) tell me once, "If I ever get lone star tick fever, I'm killing myself. I'd rather be dead than be allergic to red meat." And I don't think he was kidding.

[@xentarch]

You could easily fall into a little crevice in the middle of the woods and never be seen again. You could also easily fall into some old empty lava tube just below the surface, a sinkhole, or some crack in a glacier. There are all kinds of deep, narrow holes and such that are easy to fall into and end up lost forever. Heck, one guy even died in a grocery store after falling into the space between a wall and a display fridge. His body wasn't found until a decade later. Claustrophobia exists for a reason.

[@michah321]

How was the grocery guy not found for the odor? 😬😬 But you make a fair point

[@suburbanbanshee]

@@michah321 - He stunk a lot, for years, and people just thought a stray bird had died up in the ceiling somewhere.

[@Ryan-rr2kr]

That’s why I love living in the south east near the coast, I’ll walk in the national forest for 12 hours and the worst physical object I can come across is some quick sand and you just have to not be an idiot to survive quick sand

[@michah321]

@suburbanbanshee oh that's crazy

[@thelonestead]

@@suburbanbanshee In my experience small dead mammals like cats or raccoons stink for about 2.5 weeks. A person might only smell for 1.5-2 months.

[@treehuggingbuddhist]

A few years ago, a man purchased around 3 acres of heavily forested land on the North Olympic Peninsula of WA state. He got lost while exploring his own property and search and rescue were called to assist him in finding his way out. You really can’t make this stuff up!

[@ornag7543]

How did he manage to get lost on 3 acres

[@edwardfletcher7790]

3 acres ?? That's a 5 min walk ! Unless it's solid blackberries that's CRAZY !!

[@onewingedangel9189]

Bruh I live on 3 acres, unless he wandered off his property that's really pathetic

[@adurpandya2742]

I got lost on my cousins 2 acre place, thats mostly grass. Its absurdly easy.

[@onewingedangel9189]

@@adurpandya2742 you can literally see the other end of the property tho??? Like there isn't a single point in my 3 acre property I can't see the other side at except for when a building is in the way

[@robynsmith4164]

•The Homecoming Mums in Texas really had me laughing! I moved to Texas when I was in 10th grade (and have now been here for 30 yrs!). To me, the Texas Homecoming Mums did NOT look believable! They were so insanely HUGE and glittered up that I could not wrap my head around the fact that the bigger and more flashy they were, the better! The mum Joe showed was about 1/3 as big and maybe 1/2 as long as they normally are! They are definitely more colorful too. Most are too big to be pinned on a girl’s homecoming dress! My daughter went to homecoming in her 10th, 11th and 12th grade years. We used real Mum flowers when I was in high school but they mostly use fake Mums these days. And yes… I still have my home coming Mums from my homecoming dances and all of my daughter’s too! I hope everyone had a very 🎄Merry Christmas 🎁 and will have a 🎉Happy New Year 🥂 too! Love from Texas ♥️🤠🌴

[@NitroReviewsMN]

When I was a kid I thought I knew the woods around me pretty well. My buddy and I were exploring a new part where we hadn't been before. We got so turned around after an hour and couldn't find our way home. We called for help and my dad heard and came crashing through the woods to save us. We were literally 300 yards away from home. You can get lost pretty easy in heavy woods.

[@humandoodad]

Yeah, I got turned around a few times in the woods around my home that I should have known like the back of my hand. I guess it's just a matter of odds that some of us who grew up wandering around in the wilderness as kids didn't disappear.

[@maryem8263]

Yes so true!!!

[@PoochieCollins]

"TIL my dad can turn into the Kool-Aid man"

[@grifixed]

The cave systems matching up to the missing people is interesting, but some people suspect goblins

[@idontwantahandlethough]

goblins DO live in caves....

[@Someaddress555s]

Number of stories of people falling into caves, likely many more we don't know of too.

[@firstmatecreative]

I've seen that map before, but the missing persons map that lines up with the cave systems map ALSO lines up with the population center maps.

[@katesun2957]

@@Someaddress555s I feel like Rip Van Winkle, like I've been asleep for two years.

[@DaveDuncanMusic]

Cave goblins of course.

[@PsRohrbaugh]

Trees / leaves are REALLY good at suppressing sound. People don't realize this until they experience it. I camp in woodlands with pretty dense tree cover. I can have a generator running a few hundred feet away and not hear it AT ALL.

[@superjlk_9538]

It’s scarier when you CAN hear something in the woods

[@ricardog.s2505]

Musician and geographer here, and can confirm! people underestimate how good trees and leaves are as a "tool" for suppressing sound and heat

[@trustworthydan]

Not sure you guys know how sound works.. it just sounds like you're all deaf.

[@itsROMPERS...]

I've thought that people and kids should carry small pressurized can air horns because voices don't carry, plus it's hard to yell very loud for very long.

[@PsRohrbaugh]

@@trustworthydan I'm a guy in my 30s with an RV and generator. During hurricanes, I can hear that thing a half mile down the block due to the concrete and lack of trees. Then I go camping and it's like magic. First time I went camping I actually turned around to make sure it didn't stop. Also note I'm talking about land with small hills (IE forest) vs completely flat.

[@joannakoter9159]

The Lore Lodge is an absolute gold mine on the Missing 411 subject. If anyone hasn't checked them out yet, you're missing out.

[@NoName-np8ko]

David Paulides: "He was hiking alone, in difficult terrain, near water, in bad weather, in an area he wasn't familiar with, with no cell reception, and had no supplies, food, or proper clothing. And mysteriously he disappeared." Weird...

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

Clearly Bigfoot collaborating with aliens

[@flannelpillowcase6475]

Tbh the truly weird ones are the many where someone was fully prepared and there was literally no reason they should disappear, along with a huge lack of forensic evidence and legitimately unexplainable circumstances. I have to wonder if most commenters here have even ever read any of the Missing 411 books. Sure a lot of the cases probably have more mundane explanations, but there are a lot that are undeniably odd as well.

[@americanidiot41]

@@flannelpillowcase6475 The only thing that is odd is if they ever did find the body. All it can take is ONE BAD STEP to find yourself in a hole you can’t get out of

[@primer50]

​@@flannelpillowcase6475 I've really tried to like Paulides I've seen many of his videos, but he comes across as a know it all and more recently a big complainer. He often leaves out important details in these cases just to fit his narrative. I live out by the mark twain national forest. There is a lot that can happen out in the woods. They recently found a body of a man that had been missing since 2017 about mile or less from my place in the woods. We've had people just walk off in the woods for no logical reason and disappear (most of the time you find out later its drug related or depression etc) . Usually, to be found years after a major search was done in that area previously ...visibility in the forest is really seasonally dependent. Hell, I've been lost on my own property several times the only way I've gotten back is to find a fence line. Personally, i find "The missing Enigma" to be the most levelheaded channel when it comes to these missing person cases. There is something to be said about having an open mind, but not to open your brains fall out.

[@itsROMPERS...]

I saw a video about a woman who was part of a couple extremely experienced in hiking, practically did it for a living for years, blogging, vlogging, etc, hiking virtually all the time. Then she decided to take a break and go for a multi-day solo hike in a fairly well-known hiking area in Spain. She disappeared, they had massive searches, and her bf wouldn't give up, kept searching by himself long after everyone else gave up. Then one day a year after she had disappeared, on a trail he had searched many times before, he discovered her remains just slightly of the trail. She had apparently fallen, injured herself enough that she couldn't get up. Just lying there, feet from the trail, she slowly died of exposure. It was nothing big, no predators, no foul play. To me the weirdest thing is that a modern experienced hiker wouldn't invest a few hundred in a Garmin satellite transponder that can send an emergency message with gps coords from any place on earth. She could've been rescued within hours. Less than $500.

[@GlobalWave1]

Even those inclined to buy such a device can at least have access on the new iphones for beacons and even text using gps.

[@lonebikeroftheapocalypse9527]

There's a few different options. The SOS transponders, sat phones and such but nothing is a bulletproof solution. When God calls, everyone responds.

[@itsROMPERS...]

@GlobalWave1 Android will have full cellular texting within a year, not just the limited iPhone service. But dedicated beacons are cheaper and have longer lasting batteries, plus they've been available for some time, so people in the last few years who got lost could've had them.

[@olliepoplol5894]

You can buy hand crack (i.e does not need batteries) radios - that emit an SOS signal

[@itsROMPERS...]

@lonebikeroftheapocalypse9527 look up the Garmin inreach, a 2-way satellite communicator with GPS, $300. How is that not "bullet proof"? Why exactly is God so intent on killing innocent people in the woods?

[@charrison8774]

Paulides always believes when an adult says "I turned my back for a second and little johnny disappeared into thin air." This is what adults say to make themselves feel better because the truth is far from "just a second" and we know this because we now have video cameras everywhere. Analysis of security cameras when kids walk off and drown in the family pool show that the parent's story about "turning their back for a second" are always just that - stories. Most of the time the kid wanders for minutes without any adults knowing where they went. Knowing this will make you question many of Paulides' stories about kids vanishing behind a tree. Fact is, no parent is going to admit they turned their back on the kid for 15 minutes figuring they were just playing and would be fine even though it happens all the time.

[@michaelwills1926]

The reports say what the reports say.

[@user-bg2oi4bz3p]

I like the Paulides stories where 2 year old children are found 20 miles away at 12,000 feet up a mountain or footprints of a small child are being followed and they suddenly disappear as if they were carried away by nothing or bloodhounds suddenly lose the scent...

[@corvinredacted]

Yeah, something I realized from looking at cases where sensationalized "unexplainable mysteries" have actually been solved: the explanation is almost always disappointingly mundane, and the aspect of the mystery the internet was salivating over turns out to be the result of a mistake- a distance mismeasured; a colder overnight temperature than reported; a lie or misestimation of time; an unmentioned river capable of moving a body; a botched investigation; and on and on. If the evidence doesn't seem to make any sense, the problem is probably the "evidence".

[@Vee_of_the_Weald]

My daughter started walking, climbing and running REALLY FAST, everywhere, all day long when she was only 8 months old! I lost her ONCE in a shopping mall when she was 18 months, as she disappeared behind the books stall (she was tiny) right next to me. I immediately went to find Security and we looked everywhere. In the space of 2 seconds, she was gone! I found her 20minutes later in the play area. I couldn’t believe she remembered the way to get there as this mall was huge! The longest 20 minutes of my life.

[@deerichardz]

If anyone is on the fence about the '411', you should look into the John Coover case, AKA the 'boggieman case'. Paulides', 'version', is quite different than what actually happened, yet he won't correct his, 'story'.

[@joebykaeby]

Missing 411 doesn't deserve a clear-headed and well-informed video like this. Paulides' genius insights into these disappearances amounts to such revelations as "People who go missing shortly before bad weather are harder to find" and "Mountainous terrain makes finding lost people challenging."

[@elizabethpemberton8445]

Oooo possibly the best channel addressing missing people is The Missing Enigma. Super respectful, empathetic, skeptical in the most useful way, and he does great research, including hiking many of the sites.

[@gilliantague]

He does a great job. I'd definitely recommend his channel. He handles cases very respectfully.

[@cpeace3172]

Thanks for the suggestion

[@joeybluenote9268]

Another vote for Missing Enigma. He gets original search records and goes to some areas himself. Many 'mysterious' or 'paranormal' disappearances have possible explanations. Even experienced hikers have falls, are killed by landslides or avalanches, fall into abandoned mines, are swept away crossing streams, get lost, aren't equipped for the conditions, have substance abuse, mental health, or health conditions, are victims of foul play, etc... A few disappearances are very odd though.

[@ShellyBellyBeans]

I love his channel.

[@insertwittyprofilenamehere]

The Lore Lodge is pretty good too. They collect as much info as possible, discuss inconsistencies and misreported info, and cover theories. Sometimes they visit the locations too. It's pretty grounded in fact, but they also discuss the relevance of preternatural theories in some cases.

[@cas6434]

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet so it's my absolutely pleasure to be able to. The smallest "national park" in the US is actually the Gateway Arch in St. Louis, Missouri. Picked that absurd fact up on my trip there earlier this year. Absolutely nothing to do with the broader video, but I thought it was a fun fact to share nonetheless! Cheers

[@nuijax]

thank youuuuu i love fun facts

[@Natef89]

My favorite channel that covers these types of stories is "The Missing Enigma," his coverage is focused on objective truths, less of the spooky paranormal stuff. He even hikes out to some locations where people go missing. Good quality channel.

[@beaver6d9]

He is awesome and is grounded in reality.

[@markymark7803]

He's boring with a monotone voice and regularly asks his viewers for handouts. A total con.

[@playgroundchooser]

That's a Very good channel! I also like how he goes out to try to get into the headspace of the victims and witnesses.

[@zisaletter4602]

I watched a couple of his vids but could not stomach more when he presented a story about goddamn lizard people from a viewer and made sure to tell the audience to listen and be respectful and honor that the viewer thought their experience was true and real. can't handle people spreading conspiracy nonsense like that, giving it any credit whatsoever

[@neverhave]

I love his channel, you can tell they have a lot of care put into them. Going to the trails people went missing on, making freedom of information requests, going through the official reports when they're released. I also genuinely like that he'll discuss the supernatural explanations of cases from a skeptical point of view. It's worth fully comparing those theories with reality to discredit them.

[@SongsOfRelief]

I grew up hiking lots in the PNW, and when you're out alone on a trail, and after a bit, you realize how quiet it is... very easy to imagine a cougar watching you from somewhere in the brush nearby. If I'm alone in a trail and haven't seen another person for a mile or two, I get creeped out and return to the trailhead.

[@4NaturesStory]

We are capable of watching the predators. Man is the ultimate predator in the forest.

[@skydiver711]

I have a relative that is volunteer fire in a small mountain community and I can tell you people going to the mountains to commit suicide is real and happens more often than most of us would believe. These are not big news events and if it weren't for having this relative, someone that is involved in these calls I wouldn't know a darn thing about it.

[@Whimsy_and_Dreams]

And that 1, people are notoriously bad at recognizing signs a loved one may be suicidal, and 2, there's a huge stigma around suicide so loved ones of a missing person would not want to publicly admit the possibility in case helpers decide to stop searching.

[@Zabiru-]

A volunteer fire. Interesting hobby hehe. Sorry, that was stupid but I couldn't resist.

[@Luuskamuikkunen]

Ok

[@a24-45]

So true. I know of one example where the news media deliberately misrepresented the suicide death of a local person in the wild as a "missing person" incident. This was part of an unwritten agreement to "avoid distressing the family" of the person who was very well known in the community. Unless you have the inside running on these cases (and I only found out through family connections), people like David Paulides can be completely misled, if they are relying on news reports only. I wonder how many in his list were suicides, which he didn't know about.

[@squallloire]

Letting a two year old out of your sight in the wilderness, even for a second or two, is utter madness.

[@crabinijig8403]

im sorry but being a parent looks really hard

[@Brdsh0t]

@@squallloire The parents when interviewing seem half stupid, half lazy. If the story is exactly how they spell it out it's beyond unlikely that is what transpired. One of the other kids that disappeared in a very similar fashion they found pieces of his clothing and bones years later. He was eaten by a mountain lion.

[@TheVtnova87]

​@@crabinijig8403it absolutely does, but not that part. Not allowing your 2 yr old to walk a distance solo in a national part is a cake decision

[@TotalContemplation]

Indeed. I agree. And, I'm a parent..

[@MikeP2055]

VINDICATION! You've confirmed my nagging suspicions about my parents' lunacy.

[@VoltasP]

The thing that stood out to me about Paulides was that he's always REALLY adamant that bad weather has a suspicious habit of following a 411 disappearance. First of all.... What?? A person going missing that day does not cause a rainstorm or a snowstorm that night. It's far more likely that people go missing all the damn time, and most of the time they're found within hours if not minutes, unless they have the bad luck to go missing right before a storm, in which case the chances of finding them goes way down. The fact that he thought that storm clouds are literally waiting for someone to go missing before coming by and dumping a bunch of precipitation? That's not how weather works.

[@maxfan1591]

Thank you. Excellent explanation of why correlation doesn't mean causation.

[@SilverDragonJay]

alternatively: it is easier for people to go missing when bad weather is rolling in. I think that makes a lot more sense if we _must_ apply causation. Imagine: its going to rain tonight, it is 4pm, the rain clouds are already rolling in. Its getting dark earlier then normal, earlier then people might expect. They might have not prepared for these conditions, or these conditions might have come on a lot faster then they anticipated. If it is going to rain, it might _already be raining_ elsewhere, this means that things like rivers might be flowing higher and faster then normal. If its going to snow, now you are throwing temperature into the mix as well. You also have other factors like wind. Though the rain might still be hours out, the wind might already be picking up. That means increased risk of things falling on you or of you losing your footing and being injured. Further, What are we qualifying as "bad weather"? If it rains for an hour, is that bad enough or must there be colossal flooding? If there is colossal flooding, is it not likely that, had that flooding not occurred, you might have found the person the next day, dead or alive? People going missing can't trigger rainstorms. A rainstorm also might not impact a person going missing hours before the storm rolled in. However, a rainstorm _can_ make it far more likely that you will never find that person again. I would not be surprised at all if there _is_ a correlation between missing persons and bad weather. I _also_ wouldn't be surprised at all if there is a _causation_ between those events, but that causation is going to be rather mundane.

[@VoltasP]

@@SilverDragonJay You have some valid points, and Paulides definition of "bad weather" is "anything that hampers or delays the search party". But the way Paulides writes about bad weather (in the books I've read) has a distinct conspiratorial bent, and he seems to attribute malice to the weather rather than acknowledging that no one can control when bad weather happens. He treats bad weather almost like a willing accomplice or a tool being used by whatever entity he thinks is behind the disappearances, and that's why I take so-called 411 Disappearances with more than a few grains of salt. Did weather hamper the search? Certainly. Did Bigfoot call in wind and rain specifically to destroy evidence and frustrate scenthounds? I'm going to need more evidence than "Someone went missing before a storm, ergo, the storm is helping stage kidnappings".

[@RobKaiser_SQuest]

Honestly the whole thing gives me similar vibes to Time Cube that it's just some kind of run-rampant delusion. I think it's sheer luck this theory turned out comprehensible at all, let alone possessing some plausibility, and that its creator was an established conspiracy author.

[@conzmoleman]

THANK YOU. Came here to say this and was glad to find it already spelled out.

[@tiffanyr9975]

This is my first time watching your content, and I appreciate your no-nonsense approach! There’s no sensationalism, just telling the stories and offering real empathy towards people who have lost loved ones in the wilderness. I truly wonder if for some people, it’s just easier to believe other people are hiding and conspiring some dark truth than it is to believe that human life can end so quickly and quietly if we’re not cautious.

[@mskellyrlv]

A niece of ours lives near Glacier National Park, Montana. After introducing me to huckleberry preserves (insanely delicious) a few years ago, she told a story about the huckleberry. It grows in the mountains, and is sought after by huckleberry lovers and merchants. When these people find a new patch, they keep its location a secret. They then have a proprietary source of huckleberries, for their own and commercial uses. There is another seeker of huckleberries, though: grizzly bears, who will literally kill to protect a patch they've found. A teen hiker had found a rich huckleberry patch, which he told no one about, but harvested it on a regular basis...until one such harvest hike, when he met a grizzly bear intent on taking over. The kid had bear spray, and used it to initial effect. But the bear came back, and advanced on the kid. He shot the bear again, and again it backed off...for a while. Then it came back. By this time the kid was backing down the mountain, and desperately trying to contact his father - but his cell phone had no signal. The cycle repeated several times, with the bear approaching, the kid spraying him, all the while backing further down the mountain in hopes of getting a cell signal. He was running out of bear spray when he finally got through to his father, and relayed the situation. The father reached him, just as the kid's bear spray ran out, but the father had a new canister and they both managed to escape unharmed. It was a close call, and if it had turned out differently, the kid would likely never have been found.

[@chadscott9420]

The sad part about this to me is that for the sake of picking some berries, that an animal eats to survive, there's a poor bloody bear stumbling around half blind and full of bullet holes, if it didn't die of its wounds...

[@ThunderBird80085]

@@chadscott9420 We also eat to survive. It's our job to be responsible but a human's life is always more valuable than any other animals.

[@davecook8378]

@@ThunderBird80085 Humans do fine without huckleberries.

[@hopsiepike]

Went camping in coastal California, with bushes loaded up with hackberries. Woke up next morning to them stripped clean. One reported they heard shuffling and snorting sounds. At least we were only dealing with a black bear.

[@ThunderBird80085]

@@davecook8378 So would a bear as there are many other things to eat. Not an actual argument.

[@justinpyle3415]

Mountain lions are efficient, and often end their prey instantly with a bite to the neck. These areas are all home to big cats, who have been suffering from dwindling food supplies due to ongoing habitat loss.

[@JosephJanitorius-p5v]

That sounds a lot like Elon Musk.

[@justinpyle3415]

@@JosephJanitorius-p5v lolwut?

[@Leroset]

@@JosephJanitorius-p5vWut? Are you saying that Musk is a mountain cat? Are you saying that he has dwindling food supplies so he has taken to stalking people on hikes and grabbing them to eat like actual cannibal Shia LaBeouf? Trying to understand what you mean here.

[@notbeyonce]

But a bite to the neck would cause tremendous blood loss. Most cases there is no sign of a struggle, much less blood.

[@tiffanymarie9750]

My thoughts exactly 💯

[@Blaise2211]

Before I watch the video, my thoughts: - A disappearance in an area seems unlikely when viewed only on Google Maps and decades later, because the terrain appears more straightforward than it actually is. That’s why these cases seem 'mysterious,' as they appear inexplicable at first glance. - People who were present during the disappearance are not telling the whole truth. By that, I mean that perhaps parents say, 'I only took my eyes off him for a few seconds,' when in reality, it was 10 minutes. People who say, 'Everything was fine, he was having a great day, and then he suddenly vanished,' might leave out the fact that there had been an argument, and the missing person might have decided to go 'home' alone. Or perhaps the individuals played an active role in the disappearance. There are so many opportunitys, why people vanish and it sounds absolute mysterious to others who don't know the whole truth.

[@superjlk_9538]

No one wants to admit that they didn’t watch their kid for a few minutes while they looked at a stream. They just want their kid back. It’s sad but those kinds of lies can cost lives because the investigators don’t know everything

[@Stable_Genius]

Paulides has been called out for leaving out details to make these cases seem mysterious or even supernatural.

[@erzsebetkovacs2527]

@@superjlk_9538 Your comment just reminded me of the movie Don't Look Back. Yeah, tragic.

[@DaPikaGTM]

​@@Stable_Genius He's a conman who either explicitly lies or lies by omission about almost every case. The fact that he hides that he has a fraud conviction says all you need to know about the guy.

[@MyBestPalJimbo]

Okay then

[@Driftwood64]

This is exactly why this is my favorite channel. You have common sense and don't fall prey to the conspiracy theories.

[@flammingsandwich6242]

1:56 clarification on the 600,000 missing persons reports. They mean that very literally. I.e. if someone is playing hide and seak with their kid and the kid is so good at it, the parent gets scared and files a report, even if the kid pops up behind them like "gotcha bih!" Right after the report is done, it still gets counted in that number. In 99% of missing persons reports, the person is found immediately or relatively soon after. whereas 1% of them are truly missing. So while 600,000 of reports are made, only 6,000 people actually stay missing, which still isn't great but nowhere near as horrible as 600,000, especially when accounting for people who want to go missing.

[@jaynestrange]

Also, some people will go missing multiple times, and each incident is counted separately. So reckless teens who keep running away from home & old folks with Alzheimer's who like to wander will inflate the numbers.

[@erinbeaud4556]

I was reported missing twice by my parents as a tween for coming home a bit late from school because they’re nuts. It’s definitely not an accurate statistic

[@pietrayday9915]

It's something that must surely get reported to police often enough, only for the "missing' person to quickly show up soon after, that it has to play into the cliches about police apathy toward missing persons cases. That number surely also includes many of the teen run-aways (or "run-aways") that don't seem to get much motivation from police to find them, because the police know that whether the teen really ran away or not, they're probably never going to be seen again, if for no other reason than these teens don't want to be found again, and troubled teens often quickly find themselves deliberately walking right into situations that result in their never being found - the lifestyles that teens on the streets find themselves in tend to involve a preference for anonymity, and are depressingly likely to result in the kid vanishing for good, whether by choice or by misadventure or at the hands of a host of possible predators As hinted at in the videos, a lot of these missing teens don't want to be found - not by their families, not by police, not by anyone they knew before they ran away or otherwise disappeared.

[@JohnJacobSchmidtt]

Of course it's going to be people that aren't counted at all because they not ever reported missing but they are

[@SilverDragonJay]

Its like kidnapping stats. A disproportionate number of kidnapping cases occur because a parent or other family member (who didn't have custody) took the kid. To be clear, there could be a very good reason why that parent didn't have custody. Just because they're related by blood doesn't mean that the kid is safe with them, but it also includes cases where the kid _was_ completely safe and the "kidnapping" was the result of well-meaning action or miscommunication. Very few kidnapping cases occur because a stranger snatched a kid off the side of the road. Still too many such cases occur, but you can't just look at the raw numbers because that will give you a very warped picture.

[@than217]

*feverishly searches for statutes of limitation for illegal Ginseng hunting* "fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck..."

[@Bye_Good]

😂 it’s not a statue, it’s statute.

[@milk11111]

​@@Bye_GoodNever let grammar police destroy a good joke⛷️

[@thestraydog]

No joke, worked with a guy who hunted for ginseng, and he made a good bit of money on the side doing that. Til one day ehen the cops and forest rangers paid him a visit... turns out, they had caught him and some buddies in the state woods with hidden trail cams, and had a whole file on the guy. I think he was only fined and they wanted to confiscate what he had harvested, but he didnt give them everything 😂 Just be careful, apparently they had photos upon photos of their little romps and the detectives found out eho they were with no problem.

[@user-dv6gt5iw4b]

@@milk11111 ok.. you've had long enough. what's the 411 on ginseng hunting ? Edit: sorry, that reply somehow got.. lost..

[@kieronparr3403]

It's a thing, I was off work sick one day and it was on TV. Can't remember whether it was a documentary or news or TV but it's a thing.

[@justinbellotti7838]

The thing is, when it comes to predators, especially big cats, they don't really make noise when they kill and drag away something. They also evolved to go for the throat, so it is very plausible that a child could be killed and dragged away without either making much noise and if they grab prey once and drag it away without letting go of that first bite, there may also be no blood at that spot. The noises we are mostly familiar with is what they do to assert dominance or drive something away from their territory. Just some food for thought.

[@tarwod1098]

Exactly my thoughts especially when it comes to small children

[@eritain]

For the *neck The standard cat kill bite is to the back of the neck, severing the spinal cord with the canine teeth. The exceptions are jaguars, which are just so built that they sometimes bite through skulls, and cheetahs, which use a suffocation bite, because their bones are too light to support the muscle for the spinal bite.

[@eritain]

But yeah, I went on a search for any remains of a kid who disappeared in Utah, quickly, suddenly, silently. His shorts had been found, inside out, off the trail near where he disappeared, and that was all anyone ever found. Mountain lion was the working theory.

[@hopsiepike]

I’ve had to retreat from a hike because a mountain lion was following, stalking us from the top of a ledge. Walked backwards for the first while until we felt safer. And you’re right. It was all soundless. Just catching fleeting glimpses. And that feeling of being watched.

[@osiris0413]

I've thought this about any of these cases that involve children disappearing in mountain lions' range, which is essentially anywhere west of the Continental divide. They are ambush predators. They can stalk for hours for the right moment to strike. You will not know they are there unless you get lucky, or unlucky. If they saw one of the small upright apes wander off from the group unobserved, even "seconds" is long enough for them. And once they are done eating they will hide or bury the rest. I am sure this explains some of the disappearances in the record - I only wonder how many.

[@glenbateman5960]

I am 63 years old and have spent countless hours, days, and weeks exploring and primitive camping the vast wilderness areas that remain in America. There are a hundred ways to end up in serious trouble in a matter of minutes, especially in the deserts and swamps, largely regardless of your level of experience. No journey into the hinterlands should be taken lightly.

[@xyz7572]

As a Scandinavian kid, I was told MANY TIMES by school, my parents, kids’ tv, everything, exactly what you should do to if you get lost in the forest to make it as easy as possible for people to find you. Scandinavia being a large wilderness with a spatter of cities few and far between makes this a very important thing to teach children. It does not surprise me at all that people who are not taught that are more prone to considering conspiracy theories rather than the vastness of nature and the indifference of it towards a tiny, lost human.

[@shantishanti1949]

SO WHAT EXACTLY SHOULD YOU DO IF YOU GET LOST - what were you taught ????

[@MizRouge]

I think I can guess some of the advice, but I’m curious as to what exactly you were told to do as a child. Would you mind elaborating?

[@Di_Tre]

Teach us :o

[@svartrabatt]

Hugging a tree comes to mind /swede

[@seanmcdonald4686]

It’s depressing that you automatically know that as Americans, we aren’t taught anything actually useful as children.

[@Jason-vn5xj]

I remember the first time my friend John and I brought our friend Rob up to the Boundary Waters (MN). This was 1998, so long before any of us had a cell phone. We were a few days into the trip, and John wanted to get some pictures of a stream with a small waterfall. While he was setting up his camera, Rob got bored and started jumping around on the wet, slippery rocks. He was starting to get really risky with some of his jumps to the point it was pissing me off. After one near-disaster, I snapped at him: "Do you remember how long it took us to get to this point? It's been three days of canoeing and portaging carrying all of our shit for miles. We are DAYS away from the car. What do you think we are going to do if you fall and break your leg? It already takes more than one trip to portage everything. Motherf--ker , you think we can carry you for three days???" People do dumb shit in the woods and die. It's incredibly easy to do.

[@SongsOfRelief]

😂 a logical rant

[@lawrencewretham7816]

Hi, British dude here. People often need rescuing from Dartmoor, a fantastic wild area in southwest England and Snowdonia, a beautiful and wild area of Wales. People mess up and die in our comparatively small national parks. They go climbing and trekking in Ugg boots and need mountain rescue. They take a can of coke and a sandwich in the pockets of a non waterproof coat, then the weather changes (in Britain, whatever next?) and they get stranded. I’m so glad we don’t have bears. Saying that, we don’t have the 411 thing as much. Maybe it’s just bears….. and tragic mental health crises.

[@stevenobrien557]

Maybe you need to (reintroduce) bears to stop idiots going out?

[@DavidSmith-vr1nb]

We're bringing wolves back to parts of Scotland. I don't think bears have been native since before the channel was filled in.

[@lh3540]

US Rockies. Animals will almost immediately destroy a site. Everything from coyotes, foxes, bears, vultures, bobcats. I don't think people realize that takes a day at most. Gone without a trace is pretty plausible. Also, moose are the real enemy.

[@MadTamB]

@@DavidSmith-vr1nb They were, the Romans used capture them. There haven't been any for about 1,500 years.

[@falcychead8198]

It's the Hound of the Baskervilles!!

[@transcatgirl551]

As someone who grew up exploring the forrest, was camping in the summer more than I was at home, you respect nature. You make lots of noise, you keep carful track of where you are and have been, an preferably never go alone.

[@slkwonk]

I grew up in the woods. Literally hundreds of acres we owned surrounded by other large tracts. I was comfortable out there, still am. As a young man I worked as a logger for a while. We were cutting a piece way out in the middle of nowhere, and at the end of one day I decided to do some bow hunting after the rest of the crew left. I had my bow, a hat and jacket, and a pair of gloves. Somehow I wandered into a pine plantation while following some fresh deer tracks, and quickly realized I was lost as there was no rhyme or reason to how the pines were planted. Once that realization hit me, I also noticed it was raining, the temp was dropping, and it was getting dark in a hurry. So I picked a direction to walk in a straight line hoping it was correct as it felt correct. It was not. I walked quite a ways and finally cleared the plantation, but there was no road, no trails, just nothing. So I sat down to have a think. I figured my best option would be to sit tight and make the best of it for the night. I would hear the crew starting up equipment at first light. I could make a rude shelter from pine boughs that would keep me dry enough. So I’m sitting on my heels cussing at my stupidity when the wind came up a bit and blew some pine boughs around. There was a flash! I looked again, another flash. I got up and started walking towards the light…haha! It was a long way off, but I kept course until I came on an old house with a yard light on a pole. Knocked on the door, and an old guy answered. Told him situation and he said, “Oh you must be one of them fellas logging such and such.” YUP I am. He said jump in the truck and I’ll take you there. So it all worked out and I made it home that night. What really bugged me though, was I had walked in the exact opposite direction to what I thought was the road. I learned my lesson though, as I never went anywhere without my pack even if I knew the land like the back of my hand. There’s just too many what ifs. One weird experience that I never expected though was steelhead fishing one early spring. I parked the truck, pulled on waders, and grabbed gear (including a pack), and walked on the snow down to the river. It was a short hike, maybe 10-15 minutes and spent the morning walking the bank of the river. The water was too high to wade. After a quick lunch I decided to try another river a half hour away so I turned to hike up and out of the river valley, and through the woods to my truck. I quickly realized the snow I walked in on in the early morning had turned to mush with the heat of the late morning sun. The snow was now chest deep and very wet. I ended up basically swimming back to the truck. That 10-15 minute jaunt I had earlier took all afternoon to make. So even though I was prepared, in the end not so much. I’m just glad the fishing stunk and made me leave early. 😂

[@angelachouinard4581]

Thanks for sharing. The snow situation in the fishing story must happen a lot but no one ever talks about it. I was a skier and always watched the snow because I had a friend who nearly got caught in an avalanche.

[@AliciaGuitar]

Im in TN and grew up in the woods. For decades the authorities denied there were panthers here, but now they admit it with security cam proofs. I literally live next to PANTHER creek. I encountered one getting into my trash. There are sinkholes and copperheads and rattlesnakes and coyotes galore. Our forests are extremely dense and subtropical (almost tropical). And hungry black bears are attracted to human smells since humans tend to leave lots of trash and pic-i-net baskets... my mom, originally from NY, tried to pet a baby bear 🤦‍♀️ i think lots of disappearances here are natural predators. Lots of Tennesseans and tourists do not know how to survive wilderness.

[@TheHikeChoseMe]

i saw a damn cougar in va once. near grayson highlands

[@justaguy5770]

Panthers, black bears, coyotes....there's so many things that could have an appetite for a little human in these mountains

[@wacojones8062]

I sat on a stump in dress clothes watching a Black Bear sow and her 2 cubs. I was uphill from the trash pile if a cub came up hill she would cough to warn the cub not to get to close to me. Northern Michigan a few hundred yards from the housing area. Staying dead calm is vital around wild animals.

[@MrMancreatedgod]

Your forests are nowhere near tropical.

[@Americanbadashh]

@@MrMancreatedgod climatology says otherwise

[@bogwife7942]

this "missing 411" crap always makes me roll my eyes. I read a blog post from someone who did search and rescue training, which involved them pretending to be the victim while the others searched for them. they were wearing bright colours, lying down in the brush to represent an injured or unconscious person. they saw _multiple_ searchers pass within feet of where they were lying, and never see them. there's nothing strange or uncanny afoot when searchers pass right by the missing person, or they never see them again. that's just the forest, man. don't underestimate the outdoors

[@davidbeppler3032]

Try that with a trained S&R dog. Experts at hide and seek. The dog wins every time.

[@glockmat]

That depends a lot on who is doing it, a bunch of amateurs also learning S&R is one thing, someone like the Green Berets, a military elite unit specialized in tracking people is another entirely

[@bogwife7942]

@@davidbeppler3032 the point still stands that "but we searched there" doesn't mean anything, especially when he literally mentions in the video that in one of the cases most of the searchers were volunteers. like yea, a dog would probably have better outcomes, but specially trained dogs are a more finite resource than, like, your average Concerned Citizen with a stick

[@rhetorical1488]

@@bogwife7942 reminds me a few years back when the girl drove her car into the lake 20 ft out and it took a private dive team to find her within the hour after the cops spent days saying she is not in the water

[@katanaki3059]

Get a dog

[@lipstickcloud]

I appreciate your perspective here, and your realistic, fact based common sense is refreshing. It's an important platform. You're my favorite fellow baby Gen X'er (' 77-later) , and I have been able to connect with so many different things you've said over the past many years. There's a lot of true crime stories I follow on KZbin, and I have always been pretty irked by the Missing 411 thing when it comes up, esp in the face of actual detective work...like, since WE don't know the answer, it HAS to be paranormal..." It really does a disservice to anyone involved, when logic and true investigation go out the window and we just say "There's NO other way..." When in fact there are usually multiple ways... This general detachment refusal to face facts and reality, instead choosing to substitute their ridiculous made up stories. It has made a mess in the US. Thank you Joe, for keeping that sexy head on straight. I've lived in the Pacific Northwest my whole life and love the parks, have been hiking many times, but the experience you talked about having on the trails, is exactly what we all dread, because we know it's not impossible to get lost out there! So much natural beauty at Mt. Rainier, but people go missing there, and I don't think it's aliens.

[@chasebarber6154]

That story you told about losing the trail reminds me of when I had to rescue a group of people who got lost in a wilderness area of a national forest. They had set out about five hours before sundown expecting to be back at their car within a couple of hours. Instead, I found them an hour after sundown about 9 miles from where they started. It was a man and his two very young grandchildren, and they got lost due to a cascade of bad decisions on the grandfather's part. Luckily, the one good decision he made(finding water, then heading downstream) is what made us cross paths. With all the feral pigs and coyotes in the area; not to mention the fact they were hiking in a canyon, they would have likely been killed if I hadn't found them. The wilderness is DANGEROUS. There doesn't need to be any malicious person or supernatural entity for you to just disappear. Nature has all the tools required.

[@ZeranZeran]

it blows my mind that wild pigs go around killing people. I know it's real, it's just something that I never thought would happen and never learned about until very recently. Respect nature.. and stay away from pig territory!

[@chasebarber6154]

@ZeranZeran My primary worry for them was the coyotes. The kids were young(5 and 7 years old, iirc), and the grandfather had no light or anything to use as a weapon. Those kids would have been easy pickings in the dark. When driving them back to their car, I saw at least a dozen coyotes crossing the road. The pigs are definitely a concern as well, but their aggression is usually territorial/protective. As long as you don't sneak up on them or get too close to their babies, they usually just run. Hard to be careful of that in the dark, though. The area was COVERED in rooted ground and wallows, so they very well could have encountered them.

[@ZeranZeran]

@@chasebarber6154 Thank you for saving them and taking good care of them man. Respect.

[@benhunter8551]

You're a hero for saving them from getting got by the Aliens.

[@morganelliott1484]

I watched Palidas’ recent documentary (not missing 411) and he told a bereaved wife and best friend that their loved one disappeared into a PORTAL on a mountain. The anger and frustration in their faces while he was explaining this was palpable. The wife was nice and just said wow I can’t believe it over and over again but the man’s best friend who had blamed himself and cried telling the story didn’t say a word. It was easy to see he was boiling at this man’s audacity to say his dead friend got sucked into a portal.

[@sootopossum8063]

That's absolutely nuts! Ughh some people🙄

[@brucejones1867]

Please name this documentary. I would like to watch it. Thanks.

[@dancorcoran3721]

BULLSHIT! WHATS THE DOC?

[@GershTalentAbeny]

if you do your research there's been hundreds literally walk around a tree and disappear! don't dispute or just say oh no there's no such thing as portals because you don't know ? there's something absolutely abnormal and evil going on right now in the all these people are disappearing.. my heart goes out to them especially the children. but I wouldn't dismiss anything.

[@threerings13]

I knew a family who were friends with my parents who lost their son this way. He was a proficient and experienced hiker who went out by himself for a short walk in a European forest and his body was found two weeks later after a massive search. I was a child then, but I still remember the TONE of the conversations, the deep panic and grief and helplessness his family experienced. And the way they talked about him later, but never mentioned his death or how it happened. Yeah, these families should be left alone.

[@1pcfred]

They were found. These people disappeared without a trace. If we could find something then there'd possibly be an explanation. Finding nothing though does make it mysterious.

[@Hwarming]

There's more than a few cases of missing people, especially children who are found miles and miles away from where they went missing and it's kinda unbelievable that they'd be able to cover that much ground in so little time, and when they are found alive they seem to not have any recollection of what happened.

[@deerichardz]

Case names?

[@KaoKacique]

It's also important to mention that many cases in the missing 411 were either solved or in some the person was even found alive! The fact that Paulides added those cases to the 411 but omitted the parts showing that there was nothing mysterious about them says a lot about his intentions

[@itisamystery.5090]

Paulides has always been... scummy. I mean, god, just look at how he lost his job as a former police officer.

[@db-ur6td]

@@itisamystery.5090 how did he lose his job?

[@PetarPopara]

I agree that the guy is trying to sell us more than genuine stuff but he also has some real head-scratchers. Which reminds me of the would-be antique stores in South-East Asia: if you're willing to waste lots of time and sort out the real gems from the counterfeit ones you may be surprised and in awe at what you'll find. Mixing genuine and not-so-genuine stuff is part of the business; it allows him to have a continuous delivery and to keep shop.

[@Platoface]

Look into Devils Den State Park in AR Rodney Ledbetter. Sometimes, very strange stuff does happen. And is never solved.

[@Platoface]

@@db-ur6td David Paulides, a former police officer, resigned from the San Jose Police Department in 1996 after being charged with a misdemeanor for falsely soliciting autographs from celebrities using official police stationery. 

[@adamh9660]

I was all in on Missing 411 for a while. But then watched other videos (The Missing Enigma; newer videos of Lore Lodge) which legitimately go to the police forces that investigated and got the reports and read old newspaper articles and realized that Paulides would just straight up omit really important pieces of information that clearly point to an accident or an animal attack. Paulides IS a grifter IMHO since removing info just cuz it doesn't fit your narrative is incredibly dishonest.

[@MidianNiles]

Mr. Scott, I wanted to take a moment to leave a comment, as well as extend my gratitude with your work. I'm a longtime viewer of your channel; my wife and I enjoy watching your content. I feel compelled to thank you for your content, but more importantly, I need to thank you for being a voice of reason and measure; providing insight toning down hyperbolic context. Thank you

[@rudeartichoke2567]

I don't know. I do think their are UAP's. Joe doesn't think so. Bigfoots, no...they would have found one by now.

[@andyreznick]

Seconded. Or possibly thirded.

[@Out_on_a_Limb_Life]

Fourthed

[@gerardocortez135]

Gregory Monroe went hunting one day in the Mojave, which is a very open area. After parking his car and getting some of his supplies out seemingly vanished into thin air, searchers looked around the area and expecting to find him in the open area but never did, but one day a random camper was around the same area where Monroe went missing and had a close call almost falling inside a man hole that was 40 feet Deep covered by brush, Monroe’s body was inside… This story really put it into perspective that anything could’ve happened and if that man didn’t stumble across it, we’d consider Monroe’s case a 411

[@wompppwompwomppp]

David Polidas was someone I used to watch a lot of, but he has proven himself to have biases and ignore major clues in cases that could explain the disappearances. As someone who has worked with kids for over 10 years now, I very rarely am surprised by the missing 411 child cases. People GREATLY underestimate what kids can do, and that includes scaling up mountains/getting themselves into weird spots. An adult looks at these and goes "Oh, I could never do that as an adult so these kids could never do it" while forgetting toddlers regularly climb up things eye/chest level to them. They dont overthink it like adults do, and are more likely to end up in bizarre areas while delirious/lost.

[@buddhamack1491]

I too have worked with children for over a decade and feel the same way. Children are very capable and can cover a decent amount of ground in a short time. A lot of young children can and do have the energy to undertake physical activity all day. Some might have a nap if they're relaxed or you can get them to calm down and relax enough but most will happily run around all day. Throw in some adrenaline from fear of being lost and who knows how far they can go. Some would definitely freeze up in panic. Also agree with thoughts on David. Once you've been caught manipulating or omitting facts to fit your narrative then you lose all credibility.

[@pipsyandmanoneki378]

I'm in the UK, trained search manager. If you dont get down to the height of the child and consider how a child would think (ie there's a rabbit, I'll chase it!) without the adult ability to consider the consequences, and if you don't consider the terrain you are searching as you go (grasslands are very different to light and heavy woodlands and what you will spot/miss is reflected in that) then you'll not be searching efficiently and have less chance of finding them.

[@angelcitystudio]

100% AGREE! He is a major hack.

[@johnchedsey1306]

When I was 4 and 5 years old, I twice slipped out of the house in the dead of winter and wandered at least a mile away (grew up in the Colorado mountains). I was small but apparently could cover ground quite rapidly. (Obviously I lived, but I'm sure my parents had quite the scare twice)

[@kitfisto1827]

He is deceptive. Calls things unusual that aren't. Ignores basic explanations because the facts dont fit perfectly together, but then infers even more ridiculous explanations.

[@higherlearning9386]

As somebody that has thought about ending it multiple times in the past year due to financial issues, insurance doesn’t cover taking yourself out so going into a huge woods to end it so that family gets a big check to survive and they also don’t have to deal with the devastation of finding my body and/or dealing with the burden of a funeral service. I would imagine many others in my situation have that line of thinking.

[@e.k.4508]

Take care of yourself! I wish you all the best ❤

[@KLRN-qc7jp]

Interesting perspective...but that doesn't expain a 3 yo child missing in one place and than being found approx 12 hours later barely alive in a blizzard, 30 km away from the place that it was missing...and that 30 km was in a straight line, over harsh terrain that would give serious trouble to traverse even a well trained adult. There are quite a few 411 cases exactly like this where kids travel impossible distances over short periods of time or their bodies being found in places they just couldn't have accessed by themselves but there was no foul-play, animals or third pirson involved. What about their clothes being in mint condition, even despite they went missing 5 years back? I'm not saying that all 411 cases are legit. Far from it. But there are some that just make the hair on your neck raise up.

[@allisoncurtis4260]

I can guarantee that someone in your life would give anything to have you alive and well. Please take care of yourself. If you can not do it for you, then do it for the people that love you!

[@SongsOfRelief]

Don't end it all! Financial situations are scary and can be very very hard, but they pass in time. Your handle "higher learning"... was it college debt, by chance? Loans can be deferred sometimes.

[@erikhendrickson59]

Never, EVER, go hiking alone. A broken ankle becomes deadly serious when you're 25 miles into the bush and didn't plan any contingencies

[@TheNiftyReptile]

Or just take reasonable precautions and don't tell people how to live their own lives

[@erikhendrickson59]

@TheNiftyReptile Huh? It's called giving people advice. Nobody has to listen to it.

[@johnchedsey1306]

I go hiking alone a lot (just not 25 mile adventures). At least one friend knows where I'm going if I know it's out of cell range. They know when I should be back. I check in. You're absolutely right that things can happen but solo hiking is a normal thing. I also intend to get one of those Garmin emergency beacons whenever I do venture into more remote areas again.

[@thorr18BEM]

@@johnchedsey1306 those things seem awesome. They weren't around when I used to solo hike hundreds of miles or disappear in the wild for months at a time. Looking back, a beacon might have saved my life in the event of an accident.

[@goosewithagibus]

@@johnchedsey1306 I always tell my family where the trail is and when to expect me back. Though I'm usually hiking on very popular trails where I come across people a few times an hour anyway.

[@ColiePolie_]

Missing Enigma is a great channel and he goes into more detail on the Martin case than I’ve seen anywhere else. Plus other 411 cases that he is logical about.