The Most Anticlimactic Cards in Commander | EDHRECast 257

[@lore_lite_]

“there’s this strange goldilocks zone… between surprise and inevitability” awesome quote from Joey! this was a great episode with some fantastic discussion. and Chase nailed the editing this episode!!

[@kyleellis1825]

What I hate about magic is that we have 10's of thousands of cards, but it seems like 500-1000 of those cards see play in like 70% of decks. My LGS has it's own meta banlist. Outside of official WOTC sponsored events, the banlsit is the 100 most played cards of every color/colourless. Top 50 for 2 color and top 25 for 3/4/5.

[@subiskier1]

I don’t have the ‘I want this game over so we can play another’ sentiment. I’ve played the first four turns of hundreds of games. I rarely get to untap with 12 mana, a full grip and a complicated board state. That’s where I find the fun in commander.

[@bobby45825]

But only if the game IS progressing and it's not like 2 players top decking and doing literally nothing now.

[@LightBender777]

If everyone is playing with adequate removal and interaction the game should last minimum 7-9 turns. Rarely does my combo or overrun effect actually win without being met by a response.

[@jamesharrison7112]

im with subskier1. commander is an epic not a cheap short story.

[@TetrisPhantom]

Same, I like long games with some semblance of consistency due to how much of the deck gets to see play. Not getting burned to ashes with Yuriko is three turns before I have any threats online.

[@Justadadonthetok]

Agree. The only exception is everyone is all buffing but there’s not much else happening for many turns because no one is drawing any removals , counters, or wipes. Or if a player feels they just aren’t in any position to interact at all because the others are having a game on their own.

[@zaclock-4228]

Thank you for this episode! I had a recent game with Wort where I killed an opponent out of nowhere with a massive burn spell, and I noticed he was silently salty about this ending. I realized throughout this episode how much warning my opponents about this deck's win cons beforehand could have improved the experience, as (1) they wouldn't think of the burn spell as coming out of nowhere, and (2) they would have been able to change their game strategy around preventing me from untapping with Wort on the battlefield or keeping counterspell effects open.

[@mentaloasis]

I was hesitant to play Felidar Sovereign in my life gain deck, however, I found that it was essentially a removal magnet instead of an actual anticlimactic wincon. Really helped to push players into action during stagnant games.

[@damonlouis6536]

if you don't want to win that way why play it? that's a free slot for a fun card

[@bye1551]

​@@damonlouis6536 sometimes I play cards specifically to sandbag them. Gotta have something you don't mind getting countered or removed. Like in my +1/+1 counters deck, I'll play a bunch of generically powerful but boring enchantments to stoak up removal and counter spells so my counter doublers stick

[@damonlouis6536]

@@bye1551 yes that's called playing around removal/counter. you still play the same way but you end up finishing with the more interesting card instead

[@mightyone3737]

The odds of someone having at least one removal effect isn't bad, even if everyone went very light. If people run only 3 relevant removal effects and have seen 15 cards (and you have 3 opponents that this is true for) leaves you with almost 80% of the time having someone have removal. 3 effects to deal with a permanent in the range where 'even Grixis has that many solutions to Enchantments', this is why it's pretty hard to run 'key cards' if they don't win on the spot. Felidar always has to sit out (unless you can Flash it out somehow, good for you if so), people run more than 3 creature removal generally (especially if you count wipes), so there *will* be an answer, but this is actually a bit of a trick, the answer is actually to wait until people have 'used up' resources.

[@damonlouis6536]

@@mightyone3737 it's not a trick it's common sense, just like run more than 3 removal. FYI artifacts can remove enchantments. play fun cards and fun games will occur is all I'm saying, no need to sand bag anticlimactic cards because that will result in anticlimactic games

[@lghal1]

Endless Horizons being a recomended card here really really scares me, because I think i basically want to run it in a deck that really want to get their basic lands, however by playing it I am one enchantment removal away from having thinned my deck out of those lands. Like I get that the upside is great, but that potential drawback sounds so scary especially when you spend like a full turn paying for it to set it up too

[@shorewall]

Yeah, I like the idea of it, but I'm too scared of that anti-christmasland scenario.

[@Arcko9]

I can confirm, I am one of many that have taken apart beamtown bullies. There are only two ways to build the deck and let the commander do what it wants to do. You build it the way that let's you win, with your levelers and what not. Which isn't fun for anyone really. And there is the kind of version where you give other people legitimately fun threats to use, but you can almost never win with it which feels like a foregone conclusion for yourself too. I've built and dismantled beamtown almost a dozen times. One day I'll build it and have fun. One day. But for now, yeah. *deflating baloon noises.*

[@Level_1_Frog]

I'm surprised how much hate 'combos' get, because I love it when someone can construct and pull off a Rube Goldberg machine 4, 5, 6+ card combo that wins the game. Because then you can see in hindsight all the dominos that were set up that led to the moment of victory, and the more dominos the more spectacular the win will be. I think 2 (or 1) card combos are a bit tired and maybe even lame if the power level at the table is low, but 'combos' in and of themselves can be glorious.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

In general, 4+ card combo is far more acceptable than a 1 or 2 card combo but another factor is how many tutors are in the deck. It really comes down to how often and how fast you expect that combo to be your win con.

[@Level_1_Frog]

@@Dragon_Fyre I partially agree, but I think there's a degree of suspense with certain tutors. I like tutors that reveal the card, something like Crop Rotation or Solve the Equation, cuz it gives everyone at the table a chance to respond or try and work out what they're trying to do.

[@seanedgar164]

My issue is more ease of assembly or whether that's the ONLY thing you can do. My Gitrog deck can churn through itself and make a bunch of beasts or zombies, make a big trampler OR drain people with a discard payoff, the win never looks quite the same

[@shorewall]

@@Level_1_Frog I think tutors shouldn't be played. Commander is a 100 card, singleton, eternal format. It is obvious that the intention was to create variance with the larger decks and singleton nature. Also, because it has access to almost all card in Magic's history, you can replicate effects to increase your chances of drawing the effect you want. And you have access to your commander at all times. That should be good enough. With tutors, it becomes as if there is only 1 card in your deck that matters, because you have your commander and that one card that form a 2 card combo. Maybe if there weren't commanders, I wouldn't feel so against tutors, but even then. Everyone complained about Companions, and rightly so, but they don't see how that is what a Commander is.

[@Level_1_Frog]

@@shorewall the only problem with banning tutors is people will not give up their Cultivates, Wayfarer's Baubles or fetch lands. And if you say 'well no THOSE are okay' then is Scapeshift and Crop Rotation okay? And if they're okay too then is Buried Alive or Entomb okay? And if they're okay too then is Chord of Calling or Imperial Recruiter okay? I personally don't think you should be allowed to search AT ALL, since it is a singleton, high variance format by nature and we should embrace that as players, but not many people see it that way.

[@dominicsandoval2214]

I guess I'm kinda surprised protean hulk wasn't mentioned. I love that card but I understand how it can definitely be abused. It also seemed to be in the same lane as the other cards

[@somersetbassett4580]

Good call, basically interchangeable with Tooth n Nail

[@SamuelKacerik]

@@somersetbassett4580 Hulk needs at least a sac outlet.

[@SventFulgur]

I love using Hulk for being a toolbox while threatening to get Gary on the board many many times 😅

[@aaaa-ni9hc]

Shattering Spree is a great suggestion. I'm now jamming it in my Myra deck since you can choose to pay Replicate when casting a spell for free, when you can't use Overload.

[@jaredwonnacott9732]

The only good infinite combos involve 4-9 cards. Insurrection sucks, but no one complains when I have a Coercive Recruiter, Gallia of the Endless Dance, Equilibrium, Changeling Outcast, Magda Brazen Outlaw, Katilda Dawnheart Prime, and Edgewalker on board and cast a Guardian Gladewalker to start a loop that does the exact same thing as Insurrection.

[@skillganon606]

Dana and Matt are the best comrades one could ask for. Look at them seizing the means of transition.

[@lukeisstrange1533]

Joey talking about Mirrorweave makes me so happy. Its my favorite card in my deck and its so versatile. Want a boardwipe? Combopiece? A bunch of value? A Pumpspell? Weird interactions around the board? All that in instant speed? Mirrorweave is there for you!

[@christophhoelbarth217]

Our playgroup allows infinite combos in the deck (because sometimes these just happen with some cards, that are good in your specific deck anyway), but you can not tutor for a combo piece. This works VERY well to still make them possible - but quire rare - to see and play without warping each game around finding the correct pieces the quickest

[@TheStephenation]

A couple years ago I was playing my Ramses Overdark deck. Dimir auras with general Dimir shenanigans. This particular iteration of my deck was deliberately powered down a bit, so that new players and precons would face an uphill battle against me, but still have a decent shot. Also at the table was a Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant deck (inexperienced player), an Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck (experienced EDH player), and a Maraxus of Keld deck (player was obviously experienced, and the deck was also a bit janky on purpose). My deck got off to a slow start, and this became compounded by the Edric player's use of Equilibrium to keep bouncing any blocker I'd manage to deploy. So the whole first portion of the game was mostly just me blocking punches with my face. Gradually, the game shifted and I was able to build a board state. Despite still being disadvantaged against the Edric player, I was holding my own against the other two. The Nevinyrral player attempted to use Xanathar, Guild Kingpin to cast the Maraxus player's Wheel of Fortune. I judged the Wheel to be unfavorable toward me, and countered it, but the Maraxus player liked the idea of Wheeling (correctly judging that it might give him the upper hand) and used Dualcaster Mage to copy the Wheel. The Maraxus player benefited the most from the Wheel, but didn't have the resources to kill more than one person at the time. So the game stalled out and all three opponents allowed my Rhystic Study to build up massive card advantage. The Maraxus player picked the Nevinyrral player off, then both remaining opponents turned their full attention toward me. I had answers to keep them from killing me, but only barely. For well over an hour, I'd neutralize the biggest threats each turn cycle and both of them would follow that up by trying to find something new to kill me with. Maraxus hit me for 18 commander damage. At one point, they got me down to 3 life. Despite all my card advantage, I couldn't dig for something that could kill one opponent without leaving me vulnerable to the other. Eventually, the Edric player picked off the Maraxus player in an attempt to draw enough cards to overwhelm me. I was able to counter his Time Stretch, fend off his swarm of creatures by cycling Decree of Pain, and steal his commander with Dragonlord Silumgar. Using Venarian Gold, of all things, I tapped down his last remaining blocker and finished him off with regular old-fashioned combat damage. The game ended up clocking in somewhere around 3 hours and 20 minutes total. The game was highly interactive, and despite my miserable start and eventually becoming the archenemy for a while, it was dynamic enough that everyone got to see their decks do stuff, and it looked like I could easily have lost at various points if one of us had played differently. So I thought it was a pretty good game. After it was over and we were packing up, the the Edric player and the Maraxus player talked to me for a bit. Both were frustrated that the game ran on for so egregiously long, and encouraged me to modify my deck to have a stronger win condition, like Torment of Hailfire.

[@Thessik73]

That sounds like an epic game. Torment would have sped things up, but it would have been yet another Torment win, and thus a bit boring.

[@wldnrkls]

cool story bro

[@facelessgames94]

Once more, my challenge the stats is for Bag of Holding in Kozilek the great Distrotion. When you discard, maybe to counter a spell, the bag exiles it, then laters, for 4 mana and sac, we get those cards back to counter more spells. It won't take long for the bag to accumulate enough cards to gain value. Maybe 4 cards and it becomes mama efficient, but add on top of that it let's us loot for 2 mana, it becomes insanely good

[@Gshadewolf14]

I love all of the little comments that Chase added at the bottom of the screen, a little bit of extra fun for watching the videos version of this :)

[@Oopsall]

2nded

[@justinendel4292]

My experiences with Divine Intervention are tied to a player that played an enchantment prison deck that gained extra upkeep steps. We saw it coming, but not in a way that was fun or had any tension.

[@seanedgar164]

Yeah for real, they haven't had to earn it besides not getting counterspelled. And then the green player is incentivized to play the hoof they cut for group experience

[@benturtl9076]

I played against beamtown bullies once, got leveler'd in turn 4 after 10 minutes or so and coincidentally that game was the longest game I haver participated in and went on for over 2 more hours. So I played 10 minutes, getting killed in such a fristrating way and then just sat there for over 2 hours doing nothing. And the guy even rolled a die to choose who he gives the leveler to...

[@ΚριςΚρις-ψ1ε]

rolling a dice isnt an excuse

[@benturtl9076]

@@ΚριςΚρις-ψ1ε It just made it feel even more out of the blze and undeserved. None of me and the other two players had really done anything at that point except like ramp once and play a small creature. I didn't even use it as an excuse

[@kirbyfanprime]

I feel that pain, buddy. Wasn't nearly that long of a wait, but I definitely was out for longer than I was in, and it was frustrating to just watch the other three start "draw-go"ing immediately afterwards.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

I’m in complete agreement with Matt on craterhoof, if someone has a big board state you should expect some kind of overrun to be coming

[@paulszki]

I think it straddles the line. E.g. a Craterhoof can be lethal with like four creatures already in play and it's like a birds of paradise, a 2/1 eternal witness, some left-over 3/3 token from a "generous gift" and a 2/2 Solemn Simulacrum that somehow never died -> suddenly you're attacking for 37 trampling damage. Like, I GUESS that's fine? It's really not the most upsetting way to lose a game but it does feel a bit like easy mode, even IF games have got to end. Compare that to like Overrun. That would let you attack for like 19 trample damage wit the same board, which is honestly still a good rate and feels "fair". You would probably want to wait to cast it until you have a bigger board. I do agree though that if you untap with a bunch of mana and a big board, that there need to be cards that let you end the game or at least take a player out. With craterhoof it just might a smidge too easy. Looking at End-Raze Forerunners: that also costs 8 mana, gives you a 7/7 that gives everything else a fixed +2/+2 and trample (and vigilance). So it still a swingy overrun effect but it doesn't pump exponentially for every random utility dude in play. Like a birds of paradise doesn't turn into a flying 6/7 trampler -> you still need an actual board of semi-relevant creatures for End-Raze Forerunners. So I'd much rather play the Forerunners than Craterhoof (and also save money on the singles 😅) because it definitely end games too, but just more conditional (or "earned") than Craterhoof.

[@seanedgar164]

Hoof is just the most obscene of the lot, overrun and end-raze forerunners can functionally do the same thing but are way less ridiculous. Same way cyc rift verse is more obscene than evacuation

[@williamrapp6676]

I’m just tired of seeing specifically craterhoof behemoth for like over a decade in every little green guys deck that wins a game

[@TIprgm]

I have to agree with Matt! I never seen Approach being played fair either. It's usually cuppled with extra turns and extreme card draw to be played again directly afterwards. My biggest feel bad with it is seeing it in Derevi, because it usually just comes in the second main phase.

[@olivierkbidi4570]

If derevi can play 2 approach , he deserve it. No removal, no counter ? Well, gg.

[@TIprgm]

@@olivierkbidi4570 Derevi is often played with stax removing your ability to interact entirely.

[@olivierkbidi4570]

@@TIprgm removal for stax card, if each players do the job and add removal its good

[@zPamboli]

31:43 I'm building a Veyran deck and I'm 100% replacing vandalblast with shattering spree, thanks for showing me a card I didn't know existed that goes super well in the deck.

[@lorchenakumnarth6456]

Very fair topic to tackle on the podcast IMO. I have become friends with some of the people I regularly played at my LGS with and created a cEDH discord with them so we play against each other. Every now and then we put in a one or two casual games in between to chill. One of these guys though, almost entirely depends on his 1-2 punch combos even in casual, like grabbing top and reservoir via tutors with the citadel out etc. He had said he'd try a different gameplan, and changed his commander for the deck. Only for us to realize that he kept the deck colors the same, as well as the majority of the 99 including the same 1-2 punch combos, the one mentioned above and Heliod-Ballista...He comes from 60 card comp. formats so I guess that explains why his approach to even casual games is that...

[@kyleellis1825]

Ask each person to make a deck for the whole pod. Tell them to balance the decks against each other because they get last pick and if one is vastly superior.inferior, it's going to hurt them. You all get to play a game with roughly balanced decks and everyone gets to try new stuff. It could also help show this player what kind of decks you meant.

[@patrickschmidt6140]

I think cyclonic rift as a game Prolonger really depends on the type of player you are playing against. I know a lot of people, myself included, who don't play cyclonic rift unless they're in a good board position and can potentially win with it. But since everybody's not like that, I totally get what you're going with here

[@seanedgar164]

Best case it's a one-sided board wipe, which still sucks. Just run an evasion effect at that point. There's just such a combination of effects that make it suck to play against

[@shorewall]

@@seanedgar164 There are actual one side board wipes. Are those better or worse? It's not different from Insurrection if played well, and if it isn't played well, then that is the problem.

[@MrMalorian]

Really like that Endless Horizons challenge. Never heard of it and that's a great effect.

[@GerBessa]

Mono-white Charbelcher is it's usual place...

[@Lanx31406]

Chase is the MVP of this episode!!

[@yairgomez9090]

I just wanna say that the way Joey gets so nervous when he's Gonna Say a "mean" thing warms My heart because the man is just so astonishingly kind. ❤

[@TheUltimateRey]

I usually don’t think any “game ender” type cards are bad but it’s when and how they are played that can lead to bad games, the game has to end at some point and if people become pressed for time then yeah cast your expropriate or your torment of hailfire but don’t ramp out or cheat it out turn 3 or 4 when we’re playing casually

[@Oopsall]

Game Enders like craterhoof or torment that and games out of nowhere are generally less accepted than, say, two or three lord effects .

[@MrFox-xr9cc]

@@Oopsall But you have to ask yourself when a hailfire wins: Option 1: - Opponent has no Boardstate and no Hand Option 2: - You have a ton of mana to pump into it Option 3: - Opponent just barely has any life left Either way it is very likely that you could make a winning play no matter what with other cards that would synnergize with your deck. And i think the thought of Raining down Hailfire on your Foes is actuually a nice ending for a black deck.

[@DontCryJustJeskai]

I love the shoutout for Shattering Spree, I run it in my Kykar deck. While I'm not getting additional spirit tokens for copying the spell with Replicate, I can sac any spirits I have handy to the replicate cost and really consistently hit around the 4 to 5 for one spell range. Even a two for one is great when there are problem artifacts around.

[@z-mashupz8069]

Definitely get the point about Beamtown Bullies, I have a deck myself and used Leveler once, and proceeded to remove it from my deck, and working towards removing all repeatable graveyard tutors to make the game a bit more random and less streamlined to a win.

[@ayayashamwow2021]

I play a really jank Nicol Bolas theme deck, and I actually announce to my group that Torment is coming in x turns depending on the board state. It becomes arch enemy which is on theme and I really enjoy watching everyone work together in a rush to take me out before I cast. It's kinda similar to fighting a big boss in a game where theres a huge attack thats telegraphed and you have to prepare for it. I've won through surprise Torment and it doesn't feel good as the person playing it and feels free.

[@sanaru02]

I don't run torment, but I do have a mean ol nicol bolas deck as well and use it as archenemy with the cards. That way, everyone can truly team up on the big baddie :P

[@cmassive113]

Love the editor comments at 4:40! Keep it up Chase 😂

[@CrabBaskets]

One day Joey they will allow you to segway into challenge the stats. Im rooting for you!

[@skillganon606]

They did for years this is the future lol

[@spurcalluth6300]

That won't be in the year 2023, that's for sure.

[@JessBritvec]

To be honest I think pretty much all alt win cons are anticlimactic, just because they are so straightforward. I don't mind some stax or edict effects, I enjoy playing around a challenge maybe a little bit more than the average edh player, but Winter Orb is too much for casual tables in my opinion. As long as there is a feasible way for me to work around or get out of something I think it adds to how exciting a win is, but at the same time I build decks to be ready to take on those types of challenges. I think (for me) I would refine Matt's statement from no agency to no decisions being made, since I think there can sometimes be a difference between narrowing down your choices when your agency taken away in some regard and having no choices at all. I think deducing the best way to do something can be fun. I have a Zevlor control deck that I've always tried to keep interesting (btw I super appreciate the Shattering Spree suggestion for this deck). I only need to slow the game down a turn or two, so that helps, but cards like Sakashima's Will lets me have crazy wins like Joey's example with Mirrorweave. I think having an interaction that is not plainly stated on the card helps a lot, maybe others disagree, but I think the more synergy your deck has the more interesting the win is. This gives opponents a lot of ways to stop you or slow you down, which creates tension, but its not as stale as blindly following the same play patterns over and over again so that its extremely apparent where its best to shut you down.

[@alexandergartner8877]

I don't mind about Torment of Hailfire or Crackle with Power in dedicated spellslinger decks. How else are these decks supposed to win? It's probably not very memorable afterwards. The thing is, you have to kill the spellslinger before he takes off. I also don't mind about Overrun effects in dedicated go-wide decks. That's how these decks win, and that's very linear but fine in the end. Not very memorable either. However, don't forget to include a few board wipes to your 99. I don't like one-card combos with your commander. I wouldn't play Exquisite Blood In Vito. I've cut all Curiosity effects from my Brallin/Shabraz wheel deck, I don't play Narset Parter of Veils either. I don't like tutoring for combo pieces. That said, when someone finds their combo by naturally drawing into it it's fine for me. Opponents might still have a counterspell. I own a tutorless Vadrok combo deck. I don't like being locked out of the game. I don't want to play a combat deck against an infinitely recurring Spore Frog. I know my deck, and if it can't break an on-board lock I might just concede. I don't like being toyed with. Pubstomping is unfun, but if you happen to draw your God hand, congratulations, now at least kill us mortals fast, so we can shuffle up for the next game. I don't like to play against Chulane, Korvold, Kinnan or Lord Urza. Don't pubstomp on purpose. If your commander has a bad enough reputation I'll target you from turn one with my ambitious jank pile. I don't want to see Coalition Victory and Biorhythm unbanned. I also prefer life without Expropriate, Orvar, Tergrid and most Praetors.

[@shorewall]

I really agree with your comment. Well said.

[@blargd]

Approach is interesting to me, there's some decks that get it and play it twice in a turn and you're like "Oh cool..." but then if it's in a Kwain deck for example that's been giving everyone gas and being the hug deck of the group and that happens it ends up being more of a feeling of "Oh you little shit..... you got me" and I don't mind that

[@traycarrot]

Not really, because the Kwain deck is designed to protect itself and has the best colors to do so.

[@beurtalvarez]

the problem with Beamtown Bullies is that since everybody assume you play Leveler and eater of days, so they hard focus you, as a result you "must" play them, even though it wasn't necesarily the point of the deck

[@shorewall]

Or just don't play the Commander. If the commander is so tainted that you can't play it how you want, why bother? I think it is a weak excuse.

[@beurtalvarez]

@@shorewall because I like the "false grouphug" aspect and the concept is both neat and fun

[@crisgon9552]

​@beurtalvarez or just let the table up aren't running them. I played against a guy running K'rrik, he told us he wasn't a cEDH player. He played a fair game and we all had fun

[@MrFox-xr9cc]

I don't mind Exsanguinate, Torment to Hailfire, Debt to the Deathless, ... that much. If it can kill, and theres no way around it, then there will usually be A LOT of possibilities someone could kill you with that amount of mana. Anything Burn, a big pumped up trampler, ... And the "fantasy" behind it of bleeding out or literal hailfire raining down on everyone is actually quite the spectacular finish

[@Cybertech134]

The feeling that immediately comes to mind on this topic is traversing through Cerulean Cave only to catch Mewtwo with a Master Ball.

[@benvictim]

My biggest issue with divine intervention was that the ONE time I ever played against it, it instantly drew the game. It was a BRW deck. They docksided extortionist, divine intervention, and then aether snapped.

[@RedCometNurse]

Approach of the Second Sun and Craterhoof Behemoth require a fair amount of work to actually get done. Craterhoof requires a person to be in a pretty commanding presence already. Approach of the Second Sun requires a lot of different things to happen (multiple turns, tons of card draw, lots of mana, etc) to achieve. There are definitely going to be people that find it anticlimactic, but it often leads to a bit of a nail-biting situation for everyone. That clock starting is a fun subgame. Edit: Turns out I need to watch the entire episode, because Dana literally says much of this. 😅

[@mibbzx1493]

No they don’t 😂 8 mana is not hard to get with green in your colors. Its literally the easiest color to ramp and get enough tiny creatures like elves and plants/saporlings along the way. It happens so often you probably dont even realize. Craterhoof is in 75.000 thousand decks thats extremely common and the high usage rate only confirms that it doesn’t require much of a board state with cards like avenger or phyrax that literally give you the tokens before you cast it

[@Dragon_Fyre]

I think the problem with Approach of the Second Sun is that people aren’t casting it and then surviving several turns to get a win but somehow just combo for a same turn win. It’s always going to be anticlimactic if you just out of nowhere declare victory in a turn and the only action that can stop it is a counter spell. The problem with Craterhoof, is that it is often included as the intended primary win-con in the vast majority of games played with that deck. It basically ends games as soon as your board state reaches a certain point and there is no really no interaction. You just wipe out all your opponents in one turn. Cyclonic Rift, Insurrection all follow into this same category of the game is running long, so I win because I drew a card. You may as well just have a sorcery card that is like 8 CMC and reads “You win the game”.

[@TheStephenation]

Regarding being able to see Divine Intervention coming... I recently had a game with my Phelddagrif deck in which I used Enduring Ideal after I already had Paradox Haze out. By the time I fetched Divine Intervention, I had enough extra upkeeps going that I ended the game in the same turn.

[@RollieB89]

About Approach of the Second Sun, I can honestly say if I cast it, I am winning the same turn. I actually built the deck based on drawing then I built it around Approach. I love it when my opponents who don't know my deck talk how many turns they have and then they lose.

[@ethanbeck5892]

So I have approach in my Queen Marchesa (long may she reign) deck. And I use monarchy as my way to get it faster. Is that considered a fair way of using it?

[@olivierkbidi4570]

It's always fair. Ppl can't stop crying

[@damonlouis6536]

you were spot on in your opening statements. i feel like you go into it like you are watching a movie, if it ends too early (combo) it feels like a sitcom, on the flip side you might not want to play an epic game but they are often the best movies. grave pact doesn't end games and can be disenchanted, chasm can be destroyed and removed from a grave, you might be right about constant mists because only blue can stop it but you can gang up on that player, i will ask my playgroup about that one.

[@Jidayun]

I definitely agree with Joey's point about Approach of the Second Sun. Just recently, we had a game that approach was cast as soon as possible, and the next 2 turns were some of the most suspenseful magic [in a good way] that was finally abated by the player being forced to tutor out a land.

[@Jidayun]

Via card effect, not like, peer pressure.

[@The-0ni]

29:06 I will say there is a reason I don’t play this enchantment and I was around for it during Lorwyn/Eventide. If Endless Horizons gets blown up, those Plains stay in exile so you can easily lose all your land drops or white sources for the rest of the game if you aren’t careful and only exile the right amount. But then what amount is worth exiling for 4 mana when you only get 1 back per turn?

[@lightfut]

Lol that board full of Kalonian hydras sounds like a wonderfully silly way to finish

[@drkruggles5961]

I'm really torn on some of these, because a number of them are cards I play consistently, and in some cases I think they lead to fun, memorable plays. Insurrection in particular has led to some very epic moments for me. It's really fun when someone is threatening to win off a Blightsteel Colossus, only to have that reversed and thrown in their face. I've also taken all of a Raggadraga's lands after they cast a Sylvan Awakening and I held on for just long enough to cast Insurrection to turn it back on him. I find these types of situations more poetic, and in some cases they lead to complicated methods of determining a victory by cobbling together combos from cards that I don't own or are sometimes not even owned by the same player. I think it can be a feels-bad card at times, but at the very least, it's not a card that you can win with on any board state, and I think it at least has some intrigue in proper timing as to when to play it. The cards that I find much more iffy are the Exsanguinate and Torment of Hailfire. I personally think these cards fall into that category of being anticlimactic in most decks, but I find that they are too reliable in a lot of decks that are capable of producing 20-30 mana in black to throw out. They are consistent, one-card win options if you have infinite mana combos in black. I will admit, there are some cooler ways to win with a lot of mana that require 2+ cards, but when you are already running a 3-4 card combo already just to get the infinite mana, you really just want something to close the game out at that point rather than demonstrating some other combo on top of your infinite mana combo. I might not be the best person to talk about anticlimactic cards, though. I tend to run a lot of them, even ones that aren't listed. I think that, given the current state of Commander, you should have ways to close out games from disadvantaged board-states, and a lot of the good ones are big, flashy spells that can end the game suddenly.

[@jlawsl]

Thassa's Oracle. That's my number one. It is so obnoxious when everyone sits down for a fun game and you see Thrasios and Tymna. I start thinking immediately, "Oh, well, I guess we are playing for second because me and everyone else isn't playing on a 3-4 turn(max) clock". Played against it just the other day. One guy had a Belakor demon deck that was pretty well made, a reasonably new guy with a UW Knight deck, another with a nice vehicle deck, me with a Gisela deck and the Oracle guy. By turn 4, Silence came down and after retconning a counter about 5 times after a Duel Caster Mage copied the Silence, everyone groaned with only a few creatures and rocks on board. No one really payed attention to the smug attitude the guy showed and just said, "Play for second?". He sat out the rest of the game as it came down to a card draw with the demon player having 3 life but lethal on board. I had a Sea Gate wreckage but no colorless source. I called the game. My next draw was a mountain but the one after was a Blasphemous act that could have been drawn with that one extra mana. It was fun. Oracle combo is really anticlimactic.

[@amosbirb2616]

With regards to the Miirym comment at 45:00 I swapped him into the 99 and put Riku as my general to make it a little more interesting

[@davidhansen5067]

One of the reasons that I run a lot of interaction in all of my decks is to be prepared for when the bomb under the table starts to go off.

[@wldnrkls]

you need to play somewhere else bro

[@normative]

I get calling stax pieces “anticlimactic” rather than generically salty: Once the lock is in place, the stax player is probably going to win… eventually. Grinding away. Slowly. There’s no more real tension, and thus no feeling of climax to the ending. Just waiting for the inevitable conclusion, maybe sticking it out because there is that one card in your library that could break the lock if you managed to topdeck it.

[@traycarrot]

Not really. If the stax pieces is symmetrical, you just have to play around it.

[@shorewall]

@@traycarrot Lol, except the stax player built their deck to play around it and you didn't.

[@valiantcoffee]

Great episode! I definitely agree with how much of a feels bad moment several of these cards create when they just come out of no where. I would say that a good finisher capitalizes on the deck's strengths and at least requires some sort of build up like you guys mentioned. Like Approach of the Second sun just feels like a bland wincon since there isnt really any build up to it. But something like a Craterhoof or Overwhelming Stampede feels fine if its later in the game and it also requires the person to have a board state first, I'd draw the line based on the amount of resources needed to properly execute the finisher.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

speaking my love language here. took cyclonic rift out along time ago and i never play cards like craterhoof and exanguiante.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

I think my biggest objection to these anticlimactic cards is the nature of Magic the Gathering, where counter spells are with few exceptions, restricted to Blue. So the only great answer to Battleship decks, is everyone having to play Blue (or frequently lose to these cards).

[@Mattthecricketbat1]

If I'm behind I'm not blowing up Divine Intervention. 1 point for draw, 0 for loss

[@ty_sylicus]

9:13 OMG. Nothing upsets me more than when an opponent tutors up one of these let down cards and ends the game. 🙄

[@jankreitzscheck9914]

Huh, it seems people just hate Muldrotha decks. 😂 To the everyone who feels that somebody's 2 card combo prevented them from expressing their personality or whatever: Play. More. Interaction.

[@SWNJim]

Anticlimactic for me is anything that says “You win the game.” That’s not to be confused with a player losing the game, especially in multiplayer formats. Making a player lose can be done a multiple of ways, but the YWTG cards just arbitrarily declares someone the winner and damn anything else. Adding onto this are the extra turns. The amount of extra game actions that are created by taking another turn is always greater than the cost of the spell, even if they don’t take advantage of every single one. “Tapping out” is not a strong enough argument against it. You still draw a card, get to play an additional land, and get an extra attack phase. The whole time everyone is waiting on that player so that they can play again. I’m alright with cards like Torment of Hailfire, but find an interesting way to cast them. Turning all of your lands sideways for giant X spells isn’t exciting, chaining several game actions together to generate a gigantic amount of mana is.

[@pacdaman15557]

My play group has Toxrill, Atraxa, Urza, Hapatra (Yogmawth), etc in it, its all about playing a deck with the middle of the competition.

[@8BitCyberWarrior]

I think the fewer cards you need to cast to win a game (or to draw?), the worse it feels to lose against. Even though technically there needs to be stuff going on on the board to win with cards like craterhoof and insurrection, it still feels a little bad because they are just so unstoppably powerful that you can do a bare minimum of playing generic color-pie things and it makes no difference what deck you're in, or what your opponents have been doing the whole game because they are basically doomed to lose to a couple of huge Mana dorks or something stupid like that (you don't need 6/6s to kill with CHB). And of course, the issue is exacerbated when win conditions are tutored for because it basically feels like cheating in a singleton format to have multiple "copies" of any particular card. At the same time, it also feels pretty crappy to die to infinite combos like Kikki-Jikki + literally any random creature, or infinite Mana (easiest thing in the world btw) plus exsanguinate, because there is usually very little any deck besides a blue/control deck can do to stop them, so if you just happen to be playing less traditional colors or strategy, the most common and powerful cards will inevitably kill you and there's basically nothing you can do about it if you're playing fairly and not holding up a thousand tutors and answers and doing nothing else (not fun for anyone, I know from experience). Basically, there are few ways that a game of commander typically ends in that feel satisfying for the people that lose, but maybe that's just the inevitable feeling of defeat that comes with a competitive game, or maybe commander is just so fun that no matter how it ends people will be sad to have to put their cards away and move on. I know sometimes I wish I could play magic for the rest of eternity, so who knows- maybe the only way to keep enjoying commander is for the game to never end 😅

[@robaphone251]

The Hitchcock gun under the table comparison is a great analogy. Craterhoof doesn't feel anticlimactic if the player has been aggressive and attacking every turn; it feels anticlimactic if they just ramp, chump block and don't engage with the rest of the table waiting to pick off any stragglers with the Hoof.

[@shorewall]

Yeah, I think of just playing tons of mana dorks to ramp out hoof, or as they said, tooth and nail'ing Craterhoof and Avenger.

[@sc100ott]

So, if I play Endless Horizons, which exiles all my plains (maybe as much as 20 or more in my white deck), and then Horzons gets removed, I do believe I’m hosed-doomed to missing land drops and likely woefully short of white mana for the rest of the game. Sounds a bit risky, no?

[@shaynegunsher7206]

Endless Horizons says "any number of Plains cards". So you don't have to grab everything and probably shouldn't. I would probably play Endless Horizons on four, five, or six. Just enough that you hit enough land drops to stay in the game but not enough that it becomes a giant billboard the says "Destroy this enchantment to lock me out of the game".

[@sc100ott]

@@shaynegunsher7206 Thanks. Obviously I missed the “any number”.

[@crawdaddy2004]

Does Insurrection even win games in today’s Commander?

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

Sure why not?

[@matthewhettel8316]

Seems like a meta dependant answer.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

In CEDH, no. In EDH, absolutely.

[@iceghost27]

After watching this I bought a divine intervention and got it off at the following weekly commander night. I did it by threatening an academy rector in play with a pyrite spellbomb and letting it sit there, warning people we should call a truce and if they attacked me I'd pop it. Of course they did not listen so I gave them one last chance. They still attacked... that game ended in a draw. They thought I was going to get omniscience and had never seen Divine Intervention, we all laughed, it was great. 😂

[@Rococorico]

Cards that win by themselves with little to no context, from haymakers like Void Winnower to naymakers like Smothering Tithe.

[@venomturtle17]

My most anti-climactic win was with Revel in Riches. I used spell swindle on a high cost spell the turn before mine and then when that player passed turn, I just won. Everyone at the table, myself included felt deflated afterwards.

[@MrSJM1983]

I think that so may cards can be anti-climactic as my decks tend to be very causal, so there are no like super big hitters in there; but a lot of it comes down to timing. The best cards in your deck can prove to be anti-climatic if the board state isn't right or someone has a counterspell or somthing. So often its less about the card, and more when you get it and what other people can do to/with it. Brilliant episode folks.

[@GeeJayGamesOfficial]

If an out of nowhere win condition comes along, does the amount of time it takes for it to be achieved matter (or make it not be a feel bad). I have a deck can win in a few different ways, creatures getting pumped by counters, and then a card making them unblockable, but also runs Simic Ascendancy and The Millennium Calendar, (I have gone for a toned down deck, so it doesn't run any counter doubling enchantments). It's Simic Ascendany I'm really looking at here, not sure it's the most fun way to win, but I can see it could be fun, if played at the correct time, to add a sense of jeopardy, perhaps late to mid game, where it will need to be dealt with (whilst also allowing the turns needed for it to be responded to)

[@Maverickstyg]

I havent watched the whole episode yet, but i think that people, for whatever reason, kind of expect that a game of commander is like 4 people making art or telling a story together. The reality of the situation is that we aren't. This isnt D&D. In my opinion if a game builds up wonderfully then ends anti-climactically, thats as good an ending as any other. It doesnt invalidate all of the good plays that got us here. Especially when considering game-enders or powerful finishers as anti-climactic.

[@shorewall]

I tend to agree. I see this video as just content. Game has got to end sometime. If the game was good, but ended in a different way, that's ok.

[@ZombieLover4]

For the record I’ve built a beam town bullies deck with creatures that people actually want to play and would have fun attacking with, there are still punishers in there for naughty players but nothing of the scale of leveler

[@bardeenios251]

Animist's Awakening is fantastic in my sasaya deck where I can do x=100, flip every land, untap them because of Spell Mastery, and have like 2500 mana

[@patricklynch4074]

My scarecrow tribal deck often ends in mld but i only do that when ive had a scarecrow etb to pop every non land an opponent controls, and Then i go for lands. My thought process is that if i was able to non combo etb a scarecrow for every single permanent on the field i deserve to win

[@marnixw8724]

I'm fully on board with the sentiment of losing out of nowhere to a boring combo like blood bond or approach of the second sun. Kediss and Kraum however display exactly what they want to do before the game starts, so if you win with that, I don't think people can say you won out of nowhere and they couldn't see it coming, since it is simply what the deck wants to do. It's kinda on your opponents at that point.

[@scotthunter5895]

do you not think people dont put enough romoval in their descks to stop them

[@olivierkbidi4570]

🤫 dnt tell the truth

[@malikileefred6011]

The problem I have with Craterhoof is the fact that there are so many easy one card ways to make a token army. Probably the most common is Avenger, but Secure the Wastes/Call the Coppercoats, Commanders like Prosh. All of these things create a scenario where someone plays one card, and then you have to hope that someone gets a board wipe (that' s if you get another turn around the table and they can't give everything haste) or you just die to Craterhoof. I personally don't like that play pattern because the set up can happen all at once, leaving you very little time to respond.

[@gamerscare]

Niko Defies Destiny is in the precon. That's why it's played with Ranar. Not because people think it's the best card for the slot.

[@states72]

Well now that I know Miirym is a denegerate commander... what do I play? Circa 2015 legendaries?

[@Veelofar]

I’m a huge fan of Endless Horizons in a green white deck with Abundance. You basically guarantee a land and a nonland draw each turn. Is it required in a GW deck? No. Is it fun? I think so, at least.

[@tariqmaketab595]

Approach is in a couple of my decks, and each time I've won with it, it wasn't with some Remand BS but through drawing it faster than expected. I get what Joey means, there's at least some measure of tension with my opponents being antsy and counting my draws to see how soon it gets back in my hand. I've had opponents shuffle my library and making it unpredictable when I'll get it again. Would using Dig Through Time to get it back the next turn be considered anticlimactic?

[@loonar7960]

I've felt like this frequently in my years of playing EDH, but I also find myself adding these kinds of cards in my decks. Decks still need wincons. So I think what we need to establish is what is an acceptable way to win a game? I'm still early in the video so I don't yet know if you covered this, but if not it might be a good topic for the future. And beyond that, how am I as an uncreative deckbuilder supposed to come up with fun and unique wincons that won't make people feel bad about the game as a whole?

[@danaroach29]

Finding a thing anti-climatic doesn’t mean it’s unacceptable though.

[@loonar7960]

@@danaroach29 It's certainly implied though. When you play one of those cards to win and the whole table grumbles and rolls their eyes and it's unsatisfying to everyone including you, it sure does feel like you did something wrong. It'd be nice to get advice on how to end games in a way that doesn't induce salt and make people feel bored and unsatisfied.

[@maxducoudray]

@@loonar7960 Agreed. Broadcasting a card as anti-climactic implies disapproval.

[@mibbzx1493]

It depends on the deck, every wincon shouldnt be the same as the next persons. My wincon in my coin flip deck is flipping coins as value which you dont see every game, or having a win con unique to your deck is more satisfying than the typical ones you see all the time.

[@danaroach29]

@@loonar7960 not remotely. I’ve watched plenty of great football games that ended with a team running out the clock. That’s an anti-climax or ending, but it doesn’t mean it wasn’t a good game, not that it’s an unacceptable way to close it out.

[@beurtalvarez]

that Datagraph joke was AMAZING. I do enjoy Nickelback (as somewhzt of a guilty pleasure I must confess), but those jokeswere GREAT

[@kyleellis1825]

I made a chulane flash deck just to counter my friends targeted removal deck. It has maybe 3 ETB effects in the whole deck and the rest is just flash creatures I can cycle through.

[@tortle1055]

Katie is the best host on this show. So many of her little comments make me smile. I guess everyone else is pretty good too… JK, you’re all good, but Katie’s sass makes my day

[@GoldenTicket17]

Endless Horizons is also great for the late game because you can remove all your basics so you’re able to avoid drawing lands in the end game

[@psychozen7169]

Joey scarf game on point! Matt and Dana's hoodies looking excellent! Now if all three of you had worn hoodies would of been most excellent 👌!

[@adamrobinson6951]

Dana's Insurrection story sounds like it was the playgroup's error rather than a problem with the card. If someone isn't doing anything all game but has a load of land in play, they should be dead already.

[@shorewall]

Or they let him stay around, but then you can't be salty.

[@eschinella]

I play with many of these cards in most of my decks. The way I think about it is - they are my way of hedging against 3 hour commander games, which no-one has time for anymore. The games have to end at some point. I'd rather have a game end "anticlimactically" than drag on past its welcome because no-one can close it out.

[@BDCMatt]

Anticlimactic? You mean like the end to this ONE/MOM story?

[@kirbyfanprime]

You know what's actually frustrating and anticlimactic: when one player shuts down your strategy with something, and when you try to remove it, another player stops you, says that the act of trying to play the game has now made you the target and he will now exclusively counter only your plays, then hitting you for half life with aid from the third player. They claim they wanted to have fun with first player giving people multiple Wedding Rings. I recognized that that just hands first player the game and would just make me miserable. So in an effort to not be stuck in a horrible slog, I essentially got vote kicked from the game, cause I left right after that combat. The Rings started coming out next turn and the game lasted at least another 45 minutes. I don't know exactly how long or who won, as I moved to the other side of the store for another game, and was still playing that game when player two returned a token to me I'd lent him. Granted, the guy countering me was a judge who had a lot of experience answering questions regarding my Commander, and if I was able to get rid of the hate piece, I could have gone infinite turn 4, so him shutting me down was the right play, I just wish the table hadn't been so upfront about ganging up on me for "ruining their fun".

[@malcolmsimpson3396]

Brilliant episode.

[@stoopidpursun8140]

River's Rebuke may as well read "Remove target player from the game".

[@davidhowell1415]

I only use torment of hellfire in one deck and it’s a last ditch win con in a secret commander Nekusar deck that runs the old precons face commander

[@calebbrown1068]

I've added an Approach of the Second Sun to my Rigo, Streetwise Mentor deck, and in place of Craterhoof (I just don't own it) I'm much more interested in more on-brand pump effects like Gigantomancer, Vitalizing Wind (which I only know of due to it popping up in Matt's Raggadragga deck) and Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse that I can use at instant speed to pump my tiny dudes after they get in for unblockable damage due to how small they are with stuff like Tetsuko Umezawa and Sidar Kondo. Jolrael and Approach also have the synergy that comes with the sheer amount of cards Rigo can draw you. These cards can all be fun so long as they serve thematic purpose to your deck. All about the groove.

[@Oopsall]

Not using craterhoof allows for some very interesting and creative second and third options!

[@dennorskegnome2874]

We need an Alter sleeve of that Reclamation sage at 20:03. So good!

[@drsherifff]

There is an alter sleeve of that reclamation sage

[@chasm9557]

I understand Dana saying that combos make for anticlimactic wins, but I wonder if he feels that way if it's some really jank 6 or 7 card combo that could pop out from a somewhat recently built or upgraded deck that the decks' owner might not even realize happens to be just over the edge into infinite territory.

[@lomalindasmogcheck1]

Near-death experience most climactic victory

[@Stalzer2002]

I agree that how common the combo or the card is plays a big part in making it feel anticlimactic, even if it comes out of nowhere. I wouldn't feel that Morality Shift in Syr Konrad is anticlimactic. It's an obscure card that really only has a home in that one deck. Even losing to that is a fun memory, like a really good plot twist in a movie. It's very different than playing a Thoracle combo or a Kiki-Jiki combo out of nowhere.

[@RobertPaulson44]

I feel like multiple times in this episode "anticlimactic" cards turned into cards or strategies that just generically make people salty. While that's an interesting and valid topic, it's far less interesting and more overdone than exploring specifically what causes anticlimactic games and what can you do to change that. I would like to see this topic explored further and more directly.

[@itsTronBonne]

I'm terrified that people I'm meeting for the first time at an LGS find someones cards anti-climactic. It's troubling enough that there's a hidden list of salt cards, and then there's archetypes that villainize players to to mention cards that cost too much... now we have to worry that the way in which someone tries to have fun isn't good enough for people.